So your goal was 4 hours and you spent the first half at 3:40 pace, ran very low mileage in training and wonder why you fell apart at the end?

Not nutrition.

You did 20 mile runs on a treadmill?

winner, winner.

Main reasons for your blowup:


1. I strongly suspect you didn't run enough volume in training. 39mpw PEAK probably means you averaged around 30 mpw, which, if you use an 'online prediction calculator' to extrapolate marathon time based upon 5k or other shorter races, pretty much guarantees you will blow up and come nowhere near that predicted marathon time. You typically have to peak at 55mpw or more to hit those calculator targets.

2. Went out too fast. If your target is 4hrs and that is REALISTIC, a 1:50 1st half split pretty much consigns you to a late game blowup.

3. You do need some road adaptation for best preparation. It's not that the TM is too soft per se, it's that your legs just won't be able to handle the added downhill pounding and incline variety on the race course outdoors.

Also, if you did all your miles at 0% incline, that is def easier than running flat on a road, and that limits your training and impact resistance.

There's nothing wrong with lots of TM training, but there are caveats, and its' best to do several long runs at minimum outdoors just so there are no surprises on race day with how your legs respond.

Thanks a bunch!! Just what I was expecting...

I followed a race provided plan, which was why the peak mileage was only 39...probably should have known.

My training was 8:00 pace, but I would walk every 20 minutes to take a gel and hydrate...averaged out to 8:20ish pace.

Severely underestimated the damage that my body would feel running outside....the 20-22 mile runs on treadmill were fairly easy compared to Saturday, and no soreness afterwards. Today, I can barely walk!

Thanks for all of the advice.

I just picked a 4 hour goal because I thought it was realistic.... I really felt that from my training pace 8-8:20ish that I could finish faster. I did anticipate slowing in the back half...but did not anticipate falling apart physically.

The long runs on the treadmill were not that bad...Have a flat screen in the garage and Netflix on the Chromecast!

I really feel it was the outside/pavement vs. treadmill only that killed me. The course was almost dead flat (Ormond Beach Florida, Tomoka Marathon). Beautiful race if anyone ever has the chance! Money well spent!

I actually suspect your outcome wouldn't have been a ton better had you run the exact same mileage in training outdoors. Maybe a little better, but not a ton better, although I'll bet you also would have more quickly reevaluated your race day goal after feeling the beatdown from a hilly outdoor 20 mile training run.

I actually run my TM workouts for distance at 3% incline to make it harder than outdoors, which has worked well for me. It increase the time on your feet for the long runs, and builds your leg muscular endurance. 0% is def too easy given the outdoor pounding and potential variations in elevation, and even if you run faster at 0% on the TM, you're not getting as much time on your feet so the volume is less as well.

The answer is right there. For a marathon to go well you need to: (1) set a realistic goal based on your training and (2) pace yourself appropriately. I do not know if four hours is a realistic goal; that depends on your ability and training. But I do know that going out almost a minute per mile ahead of your intended pace is a recipe for disaster. Next time run the first half in 2:00-2:03 and I bet you'll find the second half far more manageable.

Number one is just your first half pace, others have pointed that out. It is quite possible that if you went out in 2;00/;02 you would have broken 4 hours. At least it would have been a lot closer and maybe you shuffle in instead of walking.

The 2nd thing you mentioned is that it was a dead flat course. People mistakenly think this is the easiest, it is not. When you dont have any grades in a race you legs just pound the same exact same muscles over and over, and they get fatigued quicker. With a few hills or rollers you get to change your stride and mix it up, and recruit muscles that got left alone in a flat only race. Next time find one with rollers.

The mileage is fine, if your goal is only 4 hours that is plenty if done right. I think you now know that you should do your long run maybe on the road now too...

 Yes, agreed. Absolutely think that it was outdoors versus the treadmill. I ran five long runs of 20 to 22 miles on the treadmill at an 806 pace and had zero soreness afterwards. Also, I was able to run the whole time. The only thing that changed for me on race morning was the fact that it was outside. I just did not anticipate outdoor runs having that much more of a detrimental impact on the body than the treadmill runs. Lesson learned! Once again, grateful for all of the advice. You guys rock!

Personally I trained indoor for an April marathon and PR'd it 3:29. Having a good marathon can be done indoors or outdoors.

It all depends on your training and past fitness. Lots of other factors play into it aside from on or off treadmill. Treadmills can be some of the best targeted training, but can also derail training since it can be mundane and boring for the long work.

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Ryan
http://www.SetThePaceTriathlon.com
http://www.TriathlonTrainingDaddy.com
I got plans - https://www.trainingpeaks.com/...dotcom#trainingplans

Lol

Everyone ‘it’s because you went out too hard and didn’t do enough miles’

OP ‘I think it’s because of the difference between training indoors and outdoors’

Everyone ‘no, it’s because you went out to hard and didn’t do enough miles’

OP ‘absolutely think it was because of indoors versus outdoors, you guys rock’

Palm face...

Am I the only one that thinks that is an insane amount of gel to be eating for four hours?

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You did a lot wrong. Training, goal setting, pacing, the whole thing. But it’s your first marathon and it almost never happens that people nail their marathon on first crack.

I ran my first one just like you. Severely undertrained. It was a miracle I finished in 5:53.

Second one I trained better, I am running at mile 6, feeling good and ready to crush it, and I see a blind guy with a dog pass me. Then someone barefoot passes me. Then some crippled dude passes me with a guide. Then someone morbidly obese passed me and I knew I am fucked and I really need to reavulate my training. Finished that in 5:13

3rd one was 4:53. Then I took some time off to finish med school. When I got out I was the fat fuck. So I bought a treadmill, I just ran daily at 11:00 pace on it for 8 miles playing Madden. After 4 years of no running, my marathon time was 4:18 and on 8 daily miles of 5.3-5.7 mph. No speed work, tempos, long runs, etc.

Fast forward a couple years, and after a DNF at my first IM (IMWI), I was truly humbled. Started educating myself, continued to lose weight, read books, joined forums, listened to podcasts, and really learned what to do. My next marathon was my first marathon where I felt I dictated the course. I was in complete control. Pace, nutrition, everything. 3:43 on my 5th marathon, it finally clicked what marathon pace is supposed to be. Since then, I’ve done 3 IM’s lots of HIM’s, HM, 5/10k’s. Marathon time has come down to 3:27 and HM 1:32 and 3:00/1:30 are in clear view, although it’s been a few years since my last open marathon.

Marathon training and race, properly done is really tough on the body and I am enjoying tris. So I don’t know when my next marathon will be. But I love running and will be back at it again sporadically.

I am currently on the same journey with HIM/IM. Each race, I see improvements and one of them will click.

So don’t be discouraged. Pick up Advanced Marathong by Pfitzinger, or Hudson’s marathon book, or Jack Daniels and read them and keep at it. Make sure to take a few weeks off from this marathon to let your body and mind heal. Enjoy the journey and the process.

You didn't mention how you measured pace on your TM -- if you relied on the TM for this . . . . well, a lot of TM's are not very accurate. Even footpods can fail you on the TM. If you did 22 miles in training @ a 8:06 pace and it felt easy, maybe it wasn't really at an 8:06 pace -- you ran slower than that in your race and yet crashed and burned well before 22 miles.

I do about the same. A gel every 3 miles, which is a little more than 1 every 22-23 minutes.

How often did you run? I suspect you didn't run often enough. Run at least 6 days a week every week, and the volume will creep up more incrementally and when you hit peak mileage (which should be at least 10 miles more than what you did) it will not tax your body as much as doing a few small runs during the week and then loading up a 20 miler. The BarryP method can be used as the foundation to accomplish this.

My first full I did 100% of my training runs outdoors. I peaked at like 46 mpw so not too different from you. Goal time was also 4 hours and lead up races and training predicted that would be doable and 3:45 should be feasible. However, my coach advised me to run at 4 hour pace.

My raceday pacing was quite good, nutrition went well and yet at the end of the day my result was very similar to yours. I blew up at mile 22 and had to walk two miles trying not to make eye contact with the medical staff along the course fearing they would see how I looked and pull me off the course. I ended up finishing at 4:25. After the race, my coach confided that her first full went much the same.

My next full had a very similar lead up in volume and pace and I finished comfortably in 3:58 despite a hot day.

My one piece of unsolicited advice: your soreness will recover in the next week or so and by a week and a half to two weeks from now you will feel amazing. Don't fall for it! Your body will not be recovered at that point. My worst running injury to date (knock on wood) was going too hard two weeks after the first marathon when I felt amazing and just tweaked a muscle. Took the better part of 6 months to recover. The upside is I spent that 6 months learning to swim well enough to tri.

Did you take these regular ~1 minute walk/hydration/fuel breaks in the race?

This. Really for a first marathon I would toss the time goal and go out slower than what you think you can do, with a goal of negative splitting. If it works, you can pick up energy at the end from passing everyone who went out too fast. The last six miles are hard enough in your first marathon without running right on the edge.

Haha, yep

Lol... one guy says nutrition, another says enough miles per week, another says not enough, another says too many gels, another says just the right amount.... my point was only that everyone has a different opinion as to what went wrong.

My pace is set via Garmin 920 watch...it is consistent with my treadmill pace.

Mate you came asking for advice but don't seem to want to accept what every person has told you...

Post 1: To hard to early and low mileage
Post 3: To hard to early and low mileage
Post 4: To hard to early and low mileage
Post 6: To hard to early and low mileage
Post 7: To hard to early and low mileage

......