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Putting things in perspective
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we've had a lively set of debates on a variety of issues lately, and perhaps the debate on chicagoland tri shops is most emblematic of what i'd like to say.

having been a multi-sporter for 25 years now, i've seen the big picture of how the battle lines are drawn, writing from the point of view of a triathlete. it's not this shop is good and that one is bad, this bike brand is good and the other is not. this RD is good and another is not. sure, if you and i want to express our views, fine. but if you're going to come down hard on somebody earning a living inside the tri community, it better be for a very defensible reason. otherwise, i'll come down just as hard on you. if you don't mind that, then say what you want. but sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. publicly humiliate those in our industry if you want, just be prepared to be publicly humiliated by me.

i don't care who you patronize. if you have a bug up your ass about wildflower triathlon, or nytro or mission bay, or hed or QR or whomever, okay, but in my book those who put their financial lives on the line to supply you with goods and services are givers. their customers are takers. if you're a taker, you have the right to take from whom you want. but you're still a taker. it would be nice if you could express your opinions in civil terms.

i was just inducted into the triathlon hall of fame two weeks ago, and if it wasn't for craig turner at nytro and bill linneman from MB i'd have been inducted into the debtors hall of fame a long time ago. i'll buy my last bike and last wetsuit from those two gentleman. will i let their expertise be the last word on which bike to buy, or wetsuit, or wheel, or tire? no. but whatever it is they lack in knowledge (which isn't much) is made up for by what is printed in slowtwitch and on other sites designed to empower the end-user. educate yourself. shop wisely. offer your opinions to others in civil terms. if you don't want to patronize an RD or an LBS, don't. but please honor those who've been there before you, building a marketplace that allows people like dave bunce, rich ducar and andy robles (california half-im) to even have a job in this sport.

without mission bay, rich ducar is earning his living as a financial advisor, attorney, maytag repairman, or whatever it is he'd be doing now. he called me about an hour ago, with a rather heavy heart, not sure whether to get into the fray, but expressing some anger to me that MB was being attacked by a small few people, and expressing his opinion that MB is today one of the top-5 tri shops in america in every respect. it's not a zero-sum equation. saying rich ducar is good doesn't mean somebody else is bad. patronize the bike, wetsuit, retail, race direction, magazine publishing, website authoring, company you want. think twice before making a jab at that one you're not choosing to patronize. realize that the only reason you're a triathlete is because there is a sport called triathlon, and the very RD or retailer you're jabbing spent his sweat and money building your sport brick by brick so that you could play.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Putting things in perspective [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Wow, I'll have to check that thread out. I didn't read any of it. I know Bill casually and like him. I don't know much about the Chicago market except, like all of them, there are a lot of new players and it has gotten very ugly for market share.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Warning! [ In reply to ]
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Do not go after anything Dan likes. Keep it to yourself.

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: Putting things in perspective [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I just had a look at that thread, and I have to say, what a bunch of whiney spoiled brats. Sorry, that's just my opinion.

In most parts of the US, there simply isn't any triathlon-specific shop. Hell, there isn't even a decent roadie shop in a lot of places.

Here in Bermuda, there is one bike shop worth mentioning, the Winners Edge. Great store, have a lot of stock, one of the co-owners was a very fast triathlete (sub 2 hours) in his day. Triathlon is reasonably popular here, there are over 100 entries at the biggest race of the year, which isn't bad for a country of 60,000 people. How many tri-bikes do they have in stock at any time. None, Zero, Zilch, Zip. If you want one, they'll do a decent fitting, which takes about an hour (maybe not at the level of the gurus, but decent) using bikefitting.com and special order a Trek or Cannondale, or maybe another brand if they can get it.

They carry a couple of lines of tri clothing and one wetsuit brand. Maybe they'll have your size, maybe not. Currently just one tri-shoe, Diadora. I don't buy my shoes from them, cause none fit, but everything else I do, because I want them to be in business when I need them to do something for me, like send my cracked OCLV to Trek for a replacement, or replace a snapped derailleur hanger the day before a race.

For folks to be complaining to that degree about a shop that appears to have damn near everything, yeesh. get a life.

As for personalities, they are who they are. I get along well with both Paulo and Greg, who argue between themselves like an old married couple. Its hilarious. Some people don't get along with them, but everyone comes back because they have good prices (by Bermuda standards) and they do good work.

J.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Warning! [Mr. Tibbs] [ In reply to ]
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"Do not go after anything Dan likes. Keep it to yourself."

fortunately i like you. and i tried to keep that to myself. but now it's out.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Putting things in perspective [jasonk] [ In reply to ]
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bermuda? You live in Bermuda? How cool is that. Met a pretty young female uberathlete this past summer at a race in northern Ontario and I think I recall her saying she was from Bermuda. Does the name Brittany Hern ring any bells? If so..let her know the guy who offered her some bike maintenance at Parry Sound says the offer still stands. She kicked my ass and had to stop three times to get her chain back on the rings. Almost felt bad for her...except for the fact that even then she still was faster than me.
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Re: Putting things in perspective [Kentiger] [ In reply to ]
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"Almost felt bad for her...except for the fact that even then she still was faster than me."

That's a great one.



"your horse is too high" - tigerchik
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Re: Putting things in perspective [Hid] [ In reply to ]
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And the fact that the bike she was one didn't seem to fit her very well..and it only had 16 speeds...no race wheels...obviously needed a tune up...it was humbling I tell ya. Maybe I could convince myself that the real reason I was behind her for most of the bike was the view. Be better if I could convince anyone but me though. Had you been there you'd know it was true:-P
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Re: Putting things in perspective [Kentiger] [ In reply to ]
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It's like anywhere else when you're stuck in a cubicle all day! I guess the best part is we don't have mosquitos the size of condors like you Canucks. And we can get Canadian beer (Blue, Canadian and Keith's) and hockey on cable, so life is good.

I do miss the snow though.

Brittany Hern - the name doesn't ring any bells, sorry. Sure you have the right island?

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Putting things in perspective [jasonk] [ In reply to ]
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Pretty sure I had the right island..but then again I have had more than one head injury..so maybe not. Wow..the life of a Canadian only sunnier in the winter. Any time you feel the need to relive your snowy past...we can house swap for a month or two over the winter. You won't even have to suffer the skeeters.
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Re: Putting things in perspective [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I was stuck in Chicago on a project before IMFL and went to Mission Bay for a quick tune up on my Kestrel KM40. I asked if I could pop in on a trainer to test the shifting - they obliged but then one of them said I could use a fitting. I told them I had already had a fitting and the bike was set up just right for me. He said most shops didn't understand how to fit triathlon bikes and he could certainly improve upon my setup....what he didn't know is that my bike was fitted by Tom D...who I think knows a little about tri bikes...this is my only experience with them and hopefully my last.
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Re: Putting things in perspective [jasonk] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe it was Barbados she was from..not Bermuda. Ehh both start with a B and both are way better in the winter...close enough for me.
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Re: Putting things in perspective [Kentiger] [ In reply to ]
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I spend most Christmas's at the inlaws, so I usually get my fix of snow then, just that we didn't go this year.

Anyhow, my point wasn't really to brag about living in a low-tax paradise, but to say that I'm obviously not driving distance to any of the triathlon mecca shops, and I ain't complaining, so why should anyone who lives a half hour away or so be complaining?

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Putting things in perspective [triall3] [ In reply to ]
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"asked if I could pop in on a trainer to test the shifting"

did the bike shift? tune-up okay?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Warning! [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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"fortunately i like you."

Course you Dan! I am not only April fresh but December tough.

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: Putting things in perspective [jasonk] [ In reply to ]
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Well now I just feel bad. Not too long ago I posted about my distaste for Endurosport in Toronto (about an hour away) and in retrospect I think maybe I should have kept my comments to myself. Doesn't seem there are too many shops that sell bikes that have any less of an attitude (note the exemption of the word elitist in that sentence) and I suppose my experience wouldn't have been any different at any other shop. Maybe it's just me (okay it is just me) but I have this preconcieved notion of how I think a customer should be treated..and, for that matter, how I would treat a customer were I a store owner..and it sort of left me with a bad taste in my mouth. The store itself is amazing..well stocked with every aero goody imaginable...expert (albeit with some degree of attitude..not all of them..just a few)staff...pretty good parking..well laid out. So here is my official appology to Endurosport for my poor choice of words in earlier posts. Just remember that every customer has the potential to do harm to a business..and treat them accordingly. I know I sure would have appreciated being treated this way.
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Re: Putting things in perspective [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
"asked if I could pop in on a trainer to test the shifting"

did the bike shift? tune-up okay?
Yes and Yes...I could of done without the arrogance but having shopped at Tom's place so much over the years I should of been used to it :o) <<<<<< JOKE
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Re: Putting things in perspective [triall3] [ In reply to ]
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"Yes and Yes"

did MB suggest making a shallow set up steeper on your talon, or shallowing a steep set up? or something else?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Putting things in perspective [Kentiger] [ In reply to ]
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"I posted about my distaste for Endurosport in Toronto"

when i wrote that MB was one of the top half-dozen tri shops in north america? you picked on another. owner dan rishworth is one of the least arrogant bike shop owners i've ever met. but that doesn't negate your experience.

btw, apropos of nothing perhaps, but my very FIRST fist workshop was attended by Bill Linneman and Val Gervais of mission bay, Tom Demerly, Gerard Vroomen, Hank Iglesias (Edge), Fiona Gray and Dan Rishworth (Endurosport), a pair of coaches (Rich Strauss & Michael Collins) and a civilian named Harry Friedman.

the best of the best sign up early.

but your points are well taken and adeptly delivered.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Putting things in perspective [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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No one is really mentioning this, but in my opinion the thing that makes a shop great is the PEOPLE who work there. I live in a town with basically one tri shop. I have lived in bigger cities and seen better stocked shops. But the owner and manager and the staff made it a pleasure to shop there.

Let's say the ownership changed and the new owners were elitist a-holes and treated customers like they were doing them a favor to sell them stuff. Hasta la bye-bye. I won't give them my money.

But folks, this is Retail 101. Be an ahole to your customers and you are not going to have them for very long.

Dan, I just have to disagree with your statement about customers being "takers". That's BS. I doubt most owners of shops do it for a hobby. They do it to make money. I GIVE them my money. They GIVE me merchandise. This is not some kind of social experiment where the owners are creating an evironment just to enable ME to live out my dreams as a mid-pack triathlete.

I have never been to MB. But I suspect that they are doing something right or they would have pissed everyone off and they would be out of business by now.
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Re: Putting things in perspective [TxDude] [ In reply to ]
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Dead on! From a Texan no less. I am a taker everyone else is a customer. It's not up to the customer to mesh. It's up to the seller.

By the way Bill at Mission Bay is one sexy man.

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: Putting things in perspective [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I will always give credit where it is due (and the shop is the best tri shop in probably all of Canada) but having been around as long as I have in the sport I took it as a serious slight to be treated as a newbie by someone who I would call new to the sport (all things in perspective). Maybe it was just a clash in personality I suppose. Given that, maybe I should look into getting a fit through them. That said there is a shop in Dundas Ontario (witholding name for obvious reasons..you know who you are) that is also very well stocked..probably had some very knowledgeable staff...that I will never grace with my presence again. First time in the store..talking shop with one of the employees (quite happily I might add) when the conversation was rudely interupted by the out owner of the shop. He proceeded to give me a severe dressing dwon about my lack of knowledge regarding the relationship between Trek and LeMond (of which I will admit I didn't kow the full extent in the first place). I felt not only belittled and humiliated but hugely pissed to boot. This is not the way to sell a bike (which I had planned on doing when I went into the shop in the first place). That kind of elitist arrogance not only lost my bucks but now everyone I ride with who'll listen to my rant as well. Is it fair of me to do? Probably not. Should I have let those people find out for themselves what kind of person the owner was? Totally. Do I feel my actions were justified? My pride does and I guess at the time it was a good enough reason. This is a customer service industry..why the hell should I be given that kind of treatment for my lack of first hand industry knowledge. I'm a pretty forgiving guy about most things..and maybe this shop has changed its ways..but I will never have anything to do with the shop again. Once bitten.
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Re: Putting things in perspective [Mr. Tibbs] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Dead on! From a Texan no less. I am a taker everyone else is a customer. It's not up to the customer to mesh. It's up to the seller.

By the way Bill at Mission Bay is one sexy man.
Like they say in the Guiness Commercial, "BRILLIANT"! I dont think many retailers get that.


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Re: Putting things in perspective [Kentiger] [ In reply to ]
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As a side note...when we walked out of the shop my wife (who had been on hand until the owner really started to let fly..then she though it would be best if she went to look at helmets..at a safe distance from flying objects) turned to me and said (unprovoked I might add) "I guess that will be the last time you go into that shop". She was more right than she could have ever known.
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Re: Putting things in perspective [TxDude] [ In reply to ]
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"Dan, I just have to disagree with your statement about customers being "takers". That's BS."

hey, we need takers. without takers, givers go out of business. just realize that unless you volunteer at a race, or put a race on, or take a risk (and a pay cut) and start a for-profit business in the sport, or become an official, or run for the board, or start a club, you're on one side of the equation. the other people are on the other side.

i don't mind if most of the people are taking, or buying, or consuming, or whatever you'd like to call it. my point is, when people on THAT side of the aisle snipe on people on the OTHER side, they're doing your part tear down the edifice, not build the edifice.

there are opinions, there are attacks. we all have at least 12 years of schooling, and we all know the difference, and have the skills to execute one or the other. whether we all have the temperament is another thing.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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