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Putting things in perspective
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we've had a lively set of debates on a variety of issues lately, and perhaps the debate on chicagoland tri shops is most emblematic of what i'd like to say.

having been a multi-sporter for 25 years now, i've seen the big picture of how the battle lines are drawn, writing from the point of view of a triathlete. it's not this shop is good and that one is bad, this bike brand is good and the other is not. this RD is good and another is not. sure, if you and i want to express our views, fine. but if you're going to come down hard on somebody earning a living inside the tri community, it better be for a very defensible reason. otherwise, i'll come down just as hard on you. if you don't mind that, then say what you want. but sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. publicly humiliate those in our industry if you want, just be prepared to be publicly humiliated by me.

i don't care who you patronize. if you have a bug up your ass about wildflower triathlon, or nytro or mission bay, or hed or QR or whomever, okay, but in my book those who put their financial lives on the line to supply you with goods and services are givers. their customers are takers. if you're a taker, you have the right to take from whom you want. but you're still a taker. it would be nice if you could express your opinions in civil terms.

i was just inducted into the triathlon hall of fame two weeks ago, and if it wasn't for craig turner at nytro and bill linneman from MB i'd have been inducted into the debtors hall of fame a long time ago. i'll buy my last bike and last wetsuit from those two gentleman. will i let their expertise be the last word on which bike to buy, or wetsuit, or wheel, or tire? no. but whatever it is they lack in knowledge (which isn't much) is made up for by what is printed in slowtwitch and on other sites designed to empower the end-user. educate yourself. shop wisely. offer your opinions to others in civil terms. if you don't want to patronize an RD or an LBS, don't. but please honor those who've been there before you, building a marketplace that allows people like dave bunce, rich ducar and andy robles (california half-im) to even have a job in this sport.

without mission bay, rich ducar is earning his living as a financial advisor, attorney, maytag repairman, or whatever it is he'd be doing now. he called me about an hour ago, with a rather heavy heart, not sure whether to get into the fray, but expressing some anger to me that MB was being attacked by a small few people, and expressing his opinion that MB is today one of the top-5 tri shops in america in every respect. it's not a zero-sum equation. saying rich ducar is good doesn't mean somebody else is bad. patronize the bike, wetsuit, retail, race direction, magazine publishing, website authoring, company you want. think twice before making a jab at that one you're not choosing to patronize. realize that the only reason you're a triathlete is because there is a sport called triathlon, and the very RD or retailer you're jabbing spent his sweat and money building your sport brick by brick so that you could play.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Putting things in perspective [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Wow, I'll have to check that thread out. I didn't read any of it. I know Bill casually and like him. I don't know much about the Chicago market except, like all of them, there are a lot of new players and it has gotten very ugly for market share.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Warning! [ In reply to ]
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Do not go after anything Dan likes. Keep it to yourself.

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: Putting things in perspective [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I just had a look at that thread, and I have to say, what a bunch of whiney spoiled brats. Sorry, that's just my opinion.

In most parts of the US, there simply isn't any triathlon-specific shop. Hell, there isn't even a decent roadie shop in a lot of places.

Here in Bermuda, there is one bike shop worth mentioning, the Winners Edge. Great store, have a lot of stock, one of the co-owners was a very fast triathlete (sub 2 hours) in his day. Triathlon is reasonably popular here, there are over 100 entries at the biggest race of the year, which isn't bad for a country of 60,000 people. How many tri-bikes do they have in stock at any time. None, Zero, Zilch, Zip. If you want one, they'll do a decent fitting, which takes about an hour (maybe not at the level of the gurus, but decent) using bikefitting.com and special order a Trek or Cannondale, or maybe another brand if they can get it.

They carry a couple of lines of tri clothing and one wetsuit brand. Maybe they'll have your size, maybe not. Currently just one tri-shoe, Diadora. I don't buy my shoes from them, cause none fit, but everything else I do, because I want them to be in business when I need them to do something for me, like send my cracked OCLV to Trek for a replacement, or replace a snapped derailleur hanger the day before a race.

For folks to be complaining to that degree about a shop that appears to have damn near everything, yeesh. get a life.

As for personalities, they are who they are. I get along well with both Paulo and Greg, who argue between themselves like an old married couple. Its hilarious. Some people don't get along with them, but everyone comes back because they have good prices (by Bermuda standards) and they do good work.

J.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

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Re: Warning! [Mr. Tibbs] [ In reply to ]
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"Do not go after anything Dan likes. Keep it to yourself."

fortunately i like you. and i tried to keep that to myself. but now it's out.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Putting things in perspective [jasonk] [ In reply to ]
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bermuda? You live in Bermuda? How cool is that. Met a pretty young female uberathlete this past summer at a race in northern Ontario and I think I recall her saying she was from Bermuda. Does the name Brittany Hern ring any bells? If so..let her know the guy who offered her some bike maintenance at Parry Sound says the offer still stands. She kicked my ass and had to stop three times to get her chain back on the rings. Almost felt bad for her...except for the fact that even then she still was faster than me.
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Re: Putting things in perspective [Kentiger] [ In reply to ]
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"Almost felt bad for her...except for the fact that even then she still was faster than me."

That's a great one.



"your horse is too high" - tigerchik
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Re: Putting things in perspective [Hid] [ In reply to ]
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And the fact that the bike she was one didn't seem to fit her very well..and it only had 16 speeds...no race wheels...obviously needed a tune up...it was humbling I tell ya. Maybe I could convince myself that the real reason I was behind her for most of the bike was the view. Be better if I could convince anyone but me though. Had you been there you'd know it was true:-P
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Re: Putting things in perspective [Kentiger] [ In reply to ]
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It's like anywhere else when you're stuck in a cubicle all day! I guess the best part is we don't have mosquitos the size of condors like you Canucks. And we can get Canadian beer (Blue, Canadian and Keith's) and hockey on cable, so life is good.

I do miss the snow though.

Brittany Hern - the name doesn't ring any bells, sorry. Sure you have the right island?

Swimming Workout of the Day:

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Putting things in perspective [jasonk] [ In reply to ]
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Pretty sure I had the right island..but then again I have had more than one head injury..so maybe not. Wow..the life of a Canadian only sunnier in the winter. Any time you feel the need to relive your snowy past...we can house swap for a month or two over the winter. You won't even have to suffer the skeeters.
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Re: Putting things in perspective [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I was stuck in Chicago on a project before IMFL and went to Mission Bay for a quick tune up on my Kestrel KM40. I asked if I could pop in on a trainer to test the shifting - they obliged but then one of them said I could use a fitting. I told them I had already had a fitting and the bike was set up just right for me. He said most shops didn't understand how to fit triathlon bikes and he could certainly improve upon my setup....what he didn't know is that my bike was fitted by Tom D...who I think knows a little about tri bikes...this is my only experience with them and hopefully my last.
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Re: Putting things in perspective [jasonk] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe it was Barbados she was from..not Bermuda. Ehh both start with a B and both are way better in the winter...close enough for me.
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Re: Putting things in perspective [Kentiger] [ In reply to ]
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I spend most Christmas's at the inlaws, so I usually get my fix of snow then, just that we didn't go this year.

Anyhow, my point wasn't really to brag about living in a low-tax paradise, but to say that I'm obviously not driving distance to any of the triathlon mecca shops, and I ain't complaining, so why should anyone who lives a half hour away or so be complaining?

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Putting things in perspective [triall3] [ In reply to ]
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"asked if I could pop in on a trainer to test the shifting"

did the bike shift? tune-up okay?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Warning! [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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"fortunately i like you."

Course you Dan! I am not only April fresh but December tough.

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: Putting things in perspective [jasonk] [ In reply to ]
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Well now I just feel bad. Not too long ago I posted about my distaste for Endurosport in Toronto (about an hour away) and in retrospect I think maybe I should have kept my comments to myself. Doesn't seem there are too many shops that sell bikes that have any less of an attitude (note the exemption of the word elitist in that sentence) and I suppose my experience wouldn't have been any different at any other shop. Maybe it's just me (okay it is just me) but I have this preconcieved notion of how I think a customer should be treated..and, for that matter, how I would treat a customer were I a store owner..and it sort of left me with a bad taste in my mouth. The store itself is amazing..well stocked with every aero goody imaginable...expert (albeit with some degree of attitude..not all of them..just a few)staff...pretty good parking..well laid out. So here is my official appology to Endurosport for my poor choice of words in earlier posts. Just remember that every customer has the potential to do harm to a business..and treat them accordingly. I know I sure would have appreciated being treated this way.
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Re: Putting things in perspective [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
"asked if I could pop in on a trainer to test the shifting"

did the bike shift? tune-up okay?
Yes and Yes...I could of done without the arrogance but having shopped at Tom's place so much over the years I should of been used to it :o) <<<<<< JOKE
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Re: Putting things in perspective [triall3] [ In reply to ]
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"Yes and Yes"

did MB suggest making a shallow set up steeper on your talon, or shallowing a steep set up? or something else?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Putting things in perspective [Kentiger] [ In reply to ]
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"I posted about my distaste for Endurosport in Toronto"

when i wrote that MB was one of the top half-dozen tri shops in north america? you picked on another. owner dan rishworth is one of the least arrogant bike shop owners i've ever met. but that doesn't negate your experience.

btw, apropos of nothing perhaps, but my very FIRST fist workshop was attended by Bill Linneman and Val Gervais of mission bay, Tom Demerly, Gerard Vroomen, Hank Iglesias (Edge), Fiona Gray and Dan Rishworth (Endurosport), a pair of coaches (Rich Strauss & Michael Collins) and a civilian named Harry Friedman.

the best of the best sign up early.

but your points are well taken and adeptly delivered.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Putting things in perspective [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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No one is really mentioning this, but in my opinion the thing that makes a shop great is the PEOPLE who work there. I live in a town with basically one tri shop. I have lived in bigger cities and seen better stocked shops. But the owner and manager and the staff made it a pleasure to shop there.

Let's say the ownership changed and the new owners were elitist a-holes and treated customers like they were doing them a favor to sell them stuff. Hasta la bye-bye. I won't give them my money.

But folks, this is Retail 101. Be an ahole to your customers and you are not going to have them for very long.

Dan, I just have to disagree with your statement about customers being "takers". That's BS. I doubt most owners of shops do it for a hobby. They do it to make money. I GIVE them my money. They GIVE me merchandise. This is not some kind of social experiment where the owners are creating an evironment just to enable ME to live out my dreams as a mid-pack triathlete.

I have never been to MB. But I suspect that they are doing something right or they would have pissed everyone off and they would be out of business by now.
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Re: Putting things in perspective [TxDude] [ In reply to ]
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Dead on! From a Texan no less. I am a taker everyone else is a customer. It's not up to the customer to mesh. It's up to the seller.

By the way Bill at Mission Bay is one sexy man.

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.
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Re: Putting things in perspective [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I will always give credit where it is due (and the shop is the best tri shop in probably all of Canada) but having been around as long as I have in the sport I took it as a serious slight to be treated as a newbie by someone who I would call new to the sport (all things in perspective). Maybe it was just a clash in personality I suppose. Given that, maybe I should look into getting a fit through them. That said there is a shop in Dundas Ontario (witholding name for obvious reasons..you know who you are) that is also very well stocked..probably had some very knowledgeable staff...that I will never grace with my presence again. First time in the store..talking shop with one of the employees (quite happily I might add) when the conversation was rudely interupted by the out owner of the shop. He proceeded to give me a severe dressing dwon about my lack of knowledge regarding the relationship between Trek and LeMond (of which I will admit I didn't kow the full extent in the first place). I felt not only belittled and humiliated but hugely pissed to boot. This is not the way to sell a bike (which I had planned on doing when I went into the shop in the first place). That kind of elitist arrogance not only lost my bucks but now everyone I ride with who'll listen to my rant as well. Is it fair of me to do? Probably not. Should I have let those people find out for themselves what kind of person the owner was? Totally. Do I feel my actions were justified? My pride does and I guess at the time it was a good enough reason. This is a customer service industry..why the hell should I be given that kind of treatment for my lack of first hand industry knowledge. I'm a pretty forgiving guy about most things..and maybe this shop has changed its ways..but I will never have anything to do with the shop again. Once bitten.
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Re: Putting things in perspective [Mr. Tibbs] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Dead on! From a Texan no less. I am a taker everyone else is a customer. It's not up to the customer to mesh. It's up to the seller.

By the way Bill at Mission Bay is one sexy man.
Like they say in the Guiness Commercial, "BRILLIANT"! I dont think many retailers get that.


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Re: Putting things in perspective [Kentiger] [ In reply to ]
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As a side note...when we walked out of the shop my wife (who had been on hand until the owner really started to let fly..then she though it would be best if she went to look at helmets..at a safe distance from flying objects) turned to me and said (unprovoked I might add) "I guess that will be the last time you go into that shop". She was more right than she could have ever known.
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Re: Putting things in perspective [TxDude] [ In reply to ]
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"Dan, I just have to disagree with your statement about customers being "takers". That's BS."

hey, we need takers. without takers, givers go out of business. just realize that unless you volunteer at a race, or put a race on, or take a risk (and a pay cut) and start a for-profit business in the sport, or become an official, or run for the board, or start a club, you're on one side of the equation. the other people are on the other side.

i don't mind if most of the people are taking, or buying, or consuming, or whatever you'd like to call it. my point is, when people on THAT side of the aisle snipe on people on the OTHER side, they're doing your part tear down the edifice, not build the edifice.

there are opinions, there are attacks. we all have at least 12 years of schooling, and we all know the difference, and have the skills to execute one or the other. whether we all have the temperament is another thing.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Putting things in perspective [TxDude] [ In reply to ]
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If I owned MB, I would be sending Dan a Thank you card for providing a forum in which I could learn what people think of me and my company. I could then decide that things are going great and there will always be a few that I can't please or I would take a hard look at what I am doing and make adjustments from there. I don't see why Dan feels the need to protect these stores from feedback. Maybe this goes deeper than what the rest of us know.
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Re: Putting things in perspective [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I feel your pain Dan. As much as you've put into the sport I'm sure it's easy to get pissed at people who "never give back".

I have been on both sides.....you know what, there are takers! I just remembered who they are. I was volunteering at Danskin last year, working the food tables, and I couldn't believe the odasity of some of those fine ladies! I actually saw folks walking through the food tent stuffing bags full of shit like they were at the grocery store! It was unbelievable. And when you tell them to "leave something for the other atheletes" they look at you like you like you just ripped away their first born.

That was not a fun job. :( Kind of drags down the "feel-good" vibe you are supposed to get from doing a race.
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Re: Putting things in perspective [Kentiger] [ In reply to ]
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On the flip side, I've been to that bike shop in Dundas and have dealt with the owner a couple of times. I even sent a buddy over there (who lives in Woodbridge) to buy a bike. Granted, he's not exactly a warm and cuddly type of guy - but he does know his shit, and worked really hard to get my trainer fixed when I bent the frame on it in the middle of winter, when he could easily have tried to sell me a new one - especially given that I didn't buy it from him and he knew it. He was also the first place in Canada (as far as I'm aware) to carry T1 wetsuits. Their mainstay business may be mountain bikes, but they also know tri.

For the record, I like the guys at Enduro too. Props to City Cycle in SF, and Tri-Action in Vancouver while I'm at it!


<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
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Re: Putting things in perspective [JLV] [ In reply to ]
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"Maybe this goes deeper than what the rest of us know."

nytro and MB are advertisers. wildflower, chicago triathlon, tom demerly, dan rishworth, and plenty of others are not. i give this same speech about once every 9 months or so when another round of trial by internet occurs, regardless of any business relationship.

the only posts i pull are those that say that such and such product is "unsafe." i pull those posts first because they're hugely unfair, secondly to protect the person posting from the mother of all lawsuits that will very possibly go undefended by your homeowners carrier, depending on whether it thinks you've committed an illegal act. either way, big nuisance for everybody.

then there is your garden-variety "i'll never do business with *fill in the blank* again, it's the most arrogant, dishonest, overpriced, undervalued (choose adjective) enterprise in existence. plus, i'll tell everybody."

these posts don't get pulled. they just get answered. wait 9 months. you'll see it again on the forum.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Putting things in perspective [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry, that wasn't very clear.

"Maybe this goes deeper than what the rest of us know."

I meant that maybe there is something going on in Chicago with this store that you know about, that the rest of us don't. Politics within the tri community stuff. I was a bit surprised at your at the fervor of your defence. The complaints about this shop seemed like the same complaints that people have about almost every bike shop.
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Re: Putting things in perspective [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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"i don't mind if most of the people are taking, or buying, or consuming, or whatever you'd like to call it"

To me calling it "taking" shows a rather weighted perspective. Everytime I go into a shop it seems like they are taking from me (cash). Very rarely am I "taking" something I can't find a dozen other places competing to "give" me.

We could have triathlon without triathlon shops, but you can't have triathlon shops without triathletes. Since running a tri shop is probably more fun than what most of us do for a living, it fits that people are willing to do it for a minimal living wage. People in the tri industry are no more heros than the rest of us trying to make a living, they just have different priorities. Most of their activities to "enable triathlon" also enable them to make a living at it. I "enable" them just as much by buying crap I don't need.

Volunteers are givers.
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Re: Putting things in perspective [JLV] [ In reply to ]
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"The complaints about this shop seemed like the same complaints that people have about almost every bike shop."

yes. you're right. i try not to overdo this speech. as i said, not much more than once per year.

on a couple of occasions, when i've gotten really torqued about someting especially outrageous perpetrated on those who earn a living in triathlon, i've inquired of the employer of the offender. funny how the tune changes when someone's income is threatened. be nice if the effects on the earnings of a person was considered before inflamatory comments were made.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Putting things in perspective [Kentiger] [ In reply to ]
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Maple Cyclery per chance? (If it's still there)

Used to be a very cool funky little shop until they moved up the street and then I wouldn't darken their door...well except to weigh my bike on their prominant meat hook by the front door.

I would love the Dundas arrogance again. So much friendlier than the Auckland NZ bike store crapola!

TriDork

TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"
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Re: Putting things in perspective [Kentiger] [ In reply to ]
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Kentiger,

I'm an infrequent Slowtwitch reader and so I didn't see your original post until you posted this apology. I've read the threads about tri-retailers and the service (or lack thereof) they provide and I can relate to both sides of the argument.

Retailers and their staff are just people after all and some people are jerks, or at least have bad days. The challenge we have (as retailers) is to try and make sure that our staff is able to deliver the kind of service and experience our customers expect for every customer on every visit. With the high turnover and variety of staff most retailers have to deal with this is an on-going challenge.

Rest assured that Enduro Sport sets a high standard in this regard. As high as our product assortment and store layout and merchandising, but how our staff perform every moment of every day is by far the biggest challenge we face as retailers.

What I will say in our defense (speaking for Bill and Val and many other retailers I have met) is that we have the same expectations that you do about how customers should be treated and whenever you feel that our staff/stores don't live up to that expectation, let us, the owners, know. We want to make things right for you, but more over we want to know when our staff and systems breakdown and try to address the problem at the source.

As I often remind my friends in the industry when they are frustrated with the challenges of running a business, if it were easy everyone would be doing it.
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Re: Putting things in perspective [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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All of this over someone asking if there is a tri shop when he comes to Chicago. Its a bit dramatic.

I work for Bill on occasion at the store. It has been my experience at MB that at one time there was not the right fit for management running the show (post-Rich). This was realized by Bill and taken care of. (Thanks Rich for your help when you were there). 25 years in retail, its bound to happen. Running a retail business can take the fun out of the sport you love, and somehow Bill & Val have managed to keep their enthusiasm. If you want to run this buz, give up your Ironmans, give up your training and welcome to the world of 8 days a week retail. He works 8 days a week to run those 2 stores and somehow in all of this mess his integrity was questioned. I know that if someone is not happy, he will try to make it right, I have witnessed it. I know that the business IS dependent upon customer service, and I am not dismissing anyones claims to the service they received. Just know he would try to make it right. He has a big heart and if I could I would buy the business from him so he & Val could vacation after all these years, they have earned it.

Cheers to Bill & Val. Thanks for being so good to us.

Amy
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Re: Putting things in perspective [Kentiger] [ In reply to ]
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I have been indirectly involved in this business ( bike & Tri) for many years. I think part of the problem is that many people who work the shop floors of bike stores think that they are experts - they may very well be - but in just a couple of sentences or less they can offend, irritate, overwhelm, piss-off a potential customer by what emerges from their mouths.

I don't want to get all pompous and elitiest here, but it has happened to me with regularity for many years. I have been in the sport for 20 years, I have had modest competive success, yet within a sentance or two a sales person is trying to tell/sell me something in a way that is really NOT motivating me to carry on. Why? It takes a lot to offend me, but when some kid who is barely out of highschool is telling me how to train for an Ironman, we are not off on the best realtionship foot

Here's what I suggest: Tom D had a great list of questions that he get's his staff to ask people coming in the shop, that can pretty much fix the experience of the shopper right there on the sport. To me this is absolutly key. The the smart sales person can adjust his/her stance and talk/listen to the customer AT THERE LEVEL! Now, If I am in a shop and in buying or information gathering mode and I don't asked that sort of question I just tell the salesperson who has approached me in a non-boastfull way what my background and experience in cycling and tri is. Then we are suddenly AT THE SAME LEVEL and things go smoothly from there. Often the salesperson goes and get's the shop owner and we have a good chat about the business and what's happening and the relationship really warms up.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Putting things in perspective [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Dan,

Whenever I read about this sort of thing, I wonder if this same dynamic happened before newsgroups/internet/email. Sure, shoppers had bad experiences and/or retailers were fairly or unfairly maligned. However, it took some time for the news to get around by word of mouth. Now, this sort of news, true or false, can be spread quite rapidly all over the world in a very short period of time. One bad experience on the part of a consumer and it's "QR Sucks" or "Endurosport is terrible", or . . . with a apologies to QR and Edurosport(both great brands and companies) all over the internet. No judge. No jury. No real truth.

Perhaps it's the customer who is the nutbar or unstable. When I was at Sugoi, I recall getting some cycling shorts back that looked like they had been melted somehow. There was a note with the return. A guy had been trying to warm himself up over an open fire with the shorts on, holding his arse over the fire! The shorts started to melt and fall apart right on him. He wanted us to replace the shorts!!!! I was surprised we did not get sued for burns or disfigurment. I felt like writing a note back asking him to stay tuned for our asbestos lined model coming out next year!

Fleck


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Putting things in perspective [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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I agree with Fleck on a couple of things. Find out what their experience is and go from there and suddenly you are on the same level. I work there because its fun for me to learn peoples experiences.
Secondly, people will try to return anything. Its quite scary!!

Amy
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