Yes, because the only options are to lift and not cycle or to cycle and not lift. Everybody just do crossfit!

seems you still prefer to trust hearsay more than the research ...

then really no point of arguing

That video is really cool, and inspired me to stay out of the weight room. Lance was much better when he wasn't hitting the weights.

For the same reason: the mile is not strength limited, but endurance limited.

A straw man argument is the logical fallacy of knocking down an argument that nobody made. The argument is that strength is important to cycling; my claim is that the strongest cyclists in the world cannot compete in any endurance (more than a couple of minutes) cycling event, hence strength is not important to endurance cycling.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Again Klehner is definitely WRONG. Wrong about strength training, wrong about lance giving up weight training......

Seriously, Klehner, I am guessing that ALL college swim coaches are aware of what works and doesn't work. I am sure that all the Olympic swim coaches are aware of what works and doesn't work. So WHY do they continue to use weight training and dryland if it is of ZERO benefit?

I'll take the results of Michigan Wolverine's swim team, Michael Phelps, Lance Armstrong, Andy Potts, Craig Alexander, Macca, etc......all of whom do weight training over your snagging "experiment threads" from all over the internet. These are just a few athletes mentioned above. As I stated above, I do not know a single college swim team or Olympic swimmer that doesn't use dryland and strength and conditioning. They can't ALL be wrong.

THIS x2000 and counting

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

There now needs to be a ban on strength training threads or at least a feature that sends any thread starter to the previous thousand or so threads

 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18460997
The intervention manifested significant improvements in 1RM (33.2%), RFD (26.0%), RE (5.0%), and time to exhaustion at MAS (21.3%). No changes were found in V[spacing dot above]O2max or body weight. The control group exhibited no changes from pre to post values in any of the parameters.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9554029
Exercise performance data do not fit this paradigm, however, as they indicate that resistance training or the addition of resistance training to an ongoing endurance exercise regimen, including running or cycling, increases both short and long term endurance capacity in sedentary and trained individuals. Resistance training also appears to improve lactate threshold in untrained individuals during cycling

I can also use the google.

For what it's worth, seems these studies found no weight training benefit to swimming. Ha!

I should get said feature, I admire your dedication to informing your peers, but does it really matter if a bunch of folk want to spruik the benfits of weights or crossfit

I do a set of pullups. I get a shower. I do a set of pullups. I brush my teeth. I do a set of pull ups. I get dressed and go to work, or run, or ride. Where is the downside?

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WD
http://thePoorAthlete.blogspot.com
http://twitter.com/#!/WDHutchins

What did Costill et alia do wrong in their study? I can actually think of something they may have done wrong: they may not have been able to tease out the *very small* benefit that weight training provides, after you've put in the yards that Phelps and all the other athletes you mention have put in. Since nobody here does that kind of training, it's pretty meaningless.

Lance gave up weights in the 2000s; even Carmichael said it.

I'm done with this thread.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

As stated before. If they were not swimming 20,000 yards would they be weight training? Is the training for speed primaraly? Or for injury prevention symetrical muscle balance?.........Or, it seems your saying that what works for a pro will work for you. OK, to set the half marathon world record, Halle ran 20 miles in 1:50 eight days before. You recommend that for my half PR. I know a 3 time olympic gold that has his kids he train do lifts with soup cans to help injury prevention for shouldes.,You agree with that?

Your daughter might walk in and see your Belgian Binky?

Dude, really? You're going to go that far out on a limb. You see it breaking behind don't you? Do you know why all those ELITE teams do dry land? Care to guess?

Those guys have done the other 99.9% in the pool or on the bike and are looking for that .01 % edge over their competition. They've (the swim teams anyway) have worked over their starts/turns/relay exchanges so many times that they've got nothing else left to try.

For the average AG triathlete, sub elite triathlete, BOP elite triathlete, and the overwhelming majority of pro triathletes who are not winning 100% of the races they enter, they should work on the biggest limiter: their aerobic capacity, not their strength. After all fatigue is bio chemical not bio mechanical and chemical reactions power us through our training and racing.

When you swim as much as Michigan does, or ride as much as Lance then you can come on here and spout all the bull shit you want. B/c at that point you've done 99.9% of the work that will make you a world beater, you've got the experience and knowledge to back up what you are saying. Now your just tossing shit in the air.

But I suspect that you have not swam 75-95k per week for a 5 week block heading into NCAA's as MI has, have not spent 12 years of your life swimming over 1 millio meters in the pool per year, have not ridden over 3000 miles per month for a few years, have not ran over 6,000 miles in a year for a few years on end.

I suspect that you don't understand the physiology behing endurance sports. I may be wrong, but based upon your posts I'll wager money I'm right.

I suspect you'd also advise body builders and football players to go run a 5k to get stronger for their respective sports. For that is basically what you are advocating for the masses on this board.

Maybe a few hours on Pub med would change your mind. Maybe those coaches don't have the balls to change their coaching philosophies. Maybe those coaches also realize that another 5k of swimming on top of the 80k they've put in that week may be the straw that breaks some of their swimmers back. Maybe that is why they do dry land work.

Before you take the results of something you should examine the whole of it, not just a snapshot of it.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

If you have hardly any arm strength as of now probably will help. If you have enough arm strength to swim reasonably well, probably not.

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Running is a gift.

I wonder ow many of these guys that quote pro swimmer workouts swim faster than 2 mi per hundred :~o

I have no conclusions to add other than to say that the term "strength-training" can be misused as it characterizes dryland training for swimming.

Quote:

What did the idiots who published this paper do wrong? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8371657

It is impossible for me to evaluate what these folks did right or wrong, since this is only a link to an abstract and I don't have access to the full-text (but I'd be delighted to read it).


What the abstract DOES tell me is that the control and study groups were collegiate swimmers at a university (Ball State) that was pretty serious about training. This was published in 1993, which means that they were limited by the NCAA training rules at the time, to 25 hours of total team activity (travel and workouts) per week. If they spent an extra 3 hours in the weight room (they worked out 3x per week), this would mean that they either 1) added 3 hours per week, or 2) substituted 3 hours per week, to the tune of approximately 12% difference in their training regime vis a vis the control group.


Given the volume of training that is involved, and given that these folks were already at a pretty high level, I think that it is impossible to conclude anything about the garden variety triathlete from this study. It is impossible to know from this study if there is some "low-hanging fruit" that might exist for a developing swimmer or swimmer on a time budget (such as a triathlete). It is also impossible to know from this study if this fruit might get gobbled up over the years spent swimming that these swimmers no doubt engaged in.


Further, the results of this study, as are the results of nearly every other study, a demonstration of the efficacy of a particular dryland protocol, not of "strength training" in general. This being a dryland protocol that demonstrated a 25% increase in weight suggests that it focused on increasing weights per rep.


Personally, I hated dryland training when I was in college. I have done it as a coach in many and varied forms, never of course structuring a control group rigorously. At the same time, I would hesitate to say that pullups are in the regimen of EVERY elite swimmer, nor would I say that just because it's accepted dogma that it's necessarily good.


In the end, pull-ups, or other dry-land exercises may have some benefit that does not rest solely in their ability to increase their maximal single rep muscular power. I do not know. What I do know is that Josef Nagy coached Mike Barrowman to performances in swimming that were far beyond those of his peers. He also swore by an innovative medicine ball routine, that while it could perhaps be considered stength-training, achieved many, many things not related to maximal muscular power. OK, so you may argue that his events were 2 minutes in duration - fair enough.


Regards,
r.b.

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Bringing you Tweets @ http://twitter.com/findfreestyle and Not just a bunch of drills - A Process.

Again, EVERY swim team, not just the ones I mentioned above, uses dryland and strength and conditioning.

I am done arguing. Strength training not only beneficial FOR swimming, but it also helps prevent injury. End of discussion.

Smart move, I'd be done arguing as well if I was bringing weak ass, everyone else is doing it so it must be good but I've got no proof so it needs to be the end of the discussion arguments to the table.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

No, it's more of I am done arguing with someone who is about as sharp as a bowling ball and thinks he is smarter than every swim coach in the country and around the globe.

Are you like 13?

Are you?

As a former slot receiver, I will say yes we do run 5k, 10k, etc in order to get better at our respective sport. Just about every play requires a different type of jump. Either block for run, or run/sprint for a hitch or a flat our sprint down the sidelines. The next play do it all over again. Did running 5k alone make me an all-state receiver? Nope, but the combination of all my training (including strength, running, etc) sure did. To this day I still lift weights just because it's been driving into my life since fourth grade. I have managed to cut it off from June to November, but it hurts to do so. I'm so looking forward to my last race of the season (Nov.5) and then I can get back to the iron. But like I said, for me it's more of a lifestyle habit. I just took exception to the statement made above.

As for how it helps swimming, I can't speak to that because I've only been swimming the past four years. I would have to think the strength helps but only if the muscles have the ability to maintain the same intensity for the length of the swim.

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_________________________________
The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.

How many years in a row have you swam 1,000,000 meters or more?

How many years in a row have you done dry land?

Which do you think will make you a better swimmer in the tri leg, 1,000,000 meters for 3 years or 300,000 meters + 3 dry lands per week for 3 years.

If you answer is B I hope your in my AG.

The Michigan swimmers were in group A, most triathletes are lucky to even get to group B.

The point this bowling ball is trying to make is dry land isn't going to make you a great swimmer or even a decent high school swimmer. Lots of swimming will give you a shot.

As for smarter then every swim coach, no. But as a former swim coach who sent a lot of kids to college to swim and coached several top 20 nationally ranked swimmers, I've got a better then average grip on how to train swimmers.

What size are your thumb holes?

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Its also important to keep in mind that there are many swimmers swimming 50m, 100m, and 200m swims. Raw anaerobic power is still important for them. A 1500 meter swim before your 40k bike and 10K run is altogether different.