The olympics is a great individual expirence, but the countries want, and need medals, to keep their programs funded, sucessful, and enticing to the youth of their countries..

Mark,

Bingo. Whether we like it or not this is the way it is. In Canada it is definatly this way - the COC, Sport Canada, and other agencies fund and support with the most money and the most reasources the sports that win medals. Simon just secured significant funding and support for the next four years to London 2012! As a bi-product of this, because of the exposure in the media that Simon will receive, both the sports media and the main stream media, and it's already going on today in the papers, the TV and the radio, many kids will be exposed to this and I am sure that will draw more kids into the sport. It's all good!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Maybe that's because in swimming they try to eliminate drafting with those darn lane lines. :)

What I (think I) would love to see is a decathlon(heptathlon/pentathlon) style triathlon...\

You just described a race I did in 1980, the Del Mar Days Triathlon, only not as antiseptic as you propose...One mile ocean swim through the surf, mass start with triathletes and swim only folks. One hour later, mass start road race with all category riders, 45 miles..And one hour after that, mass start 10k run, once again with fresh runners..One of the most enjoyable races I ever did, and I love the time inbetween to think about the next race. Of course I was so green back then, I just went with the leaders on both the swim and bike, finished 3rd and 4th overall there, and ran as fast as I could after that. You didn't know how you did howerver in the triathlon, until they sorted out all the single event folks, and I sweat it out for a top 5 place for two hours. I had no idea that I won by 9 minutes overall until they called my name. The format died quietly a year later, but I have always wanted to put on a stage race using this overall format, but doing more events.....

Not trying to argue, I'm just sayin'....He finished second to Gomez in the EU championships. 6th in the 07 worlds, current German champion...Anyone (in the race) who didn't know exactly who he was, was not paying attention, and the extent of my claim is I doubt they (the field) were that unaware, and therefore they would not have given him free rein the way they did Zeebroek, Bockel and Serrano who were all pack fodder in terms of their Olympic qualifying rankings. Herbert seemed to think enough of Frodeno to do a profile on Slowtwitch in June - I can't offer any explanation why no other pundits (whoever they may be) paid him any mind.

No. Kemper, Shoemaker, Ospaly, Henning, Hug, Brownlee, Clarke, M. Reed and Don are not 0:55 to 3:30 slower than the top 5 finishers in an open 10k. They are all 30:30 or better in a 10k road race.

Maybe the swim and bike do factor into the final results....

That brings up a good point - why does everyone complain about drafting in the bike, but nobody seems to mind drafting in the swim? The same arguments people are making about how drafting makes it easier for inferior cyclists to stay with the group also holds true in swimming (even if the advantage of drafting is not quite as severe).

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Go that way really fast. If something gets in your way, turn.

I could be wrong. I was just saying what I've observed. I watch the race recaps and try to see as many live races as I can on triathlon.org, but maybe I'm not getting the whole picture. I don't take any of my previous post back, though.

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"Wichtig ist, dass man nicht aufhört zu fragen." -Albert Einstein

Why not finish with a swim... too??

Sure if you assume everyone always runs to their potential. I guess we never see upsets in pure running races either?

Maybe the swim and bike do factor, maybe they don't factor as much as we think they do. I don't follow ITU much but I am guessing to be the best ITU racers in the world are probably also the best runners on the circuit. Whitfield, Bennett??

For the earlier poster asking why more Ethiopians and Kenyas aren't racing ITU. It probably has more to do with exposure and potential earnings than actual ability.

there are examples at numerous world cups every year, and major games, including the 2004 olympics.

Watching the replay while at work tells me it is not worth part of my USAT membership fee to fund this style of racing.

Based on watching both the women's marathon and the triathlon I have more interest in marathon even though I believe the women were in strategic paralysis.

If/when the olympics comes to Chicago in 2016 I will definitely be at the marathons, but the triathlon will be a maybe.

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Swim - Bike - Run the rest is just clothing changes.

I didn't make any assumptions about everyone running to their potential - you misread my post. You suggested that the athletes who finished futher back "don't have the same running talent to begin with" and that "perhaps an open 10K would have produced a very similar result with the same athletes".

I provided a list of athletes who have posted similar run performances (in open 10k races, and in triathlons), to the top finishers in yesterdays race, as proof that there are many athletes who are indeed capable of similar run performances (which I assume you are refering to when you say 'running talent') - and as an indication that the swim and bike (and heat) factored into the final result.

The top tier of ITU triathletes are the best runners in the sport (you guessed correctly) with few exceptions, but you don't make a very convincing argument re: limited impact of swim and bike, when you admit that you don't follow ITU racing.

This has been discussed often. I believe if you want to shake up an ITU race so that the cycling pack is broken up and the run totally changed is to just put a "beast" of a hill into each bike lap. Say a half mile climb at 16-18%.

That would break it up as sure as the sun rising in the east. You would need Phil and Paul to call that one.

Wouldnt it have been more exciting if some of those breaks actually were meaningful?
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That's my argument w/ this style of racing in that most of the time, the breaks don't appear to be at all calculated. I replayed portions of the event this afternoon & when a break is made, it's typically an athlete sitting on the front who starts to make a slight surge. I don't understand why there isn't a concerted effort to make a BIG break by the lesser runners in what is arguably the most prestigious title in draft-legal racing.

I have seen MANY ITU races & there are comparisons made to ITU racing & professional cycling. Aside from the fact that they are permitted to draft, that's where I see most of the parallels end. We watched the race this afternoon w/ one of the guys being a former pro & current Cat1 cyclist & he commented during the cycling portion, '& triathletes wonder why so many of them aren't respected by cyclists.' Of course this is a blanket statement & not entirely accurate, but being that the Olympics is a showcase for the best of the best, I don't completely disagree w/ him about how the level of tactics on the bike is pale in comparison to that in professional cycling. Watching a professional bike race from above is like watching a chess match, watching an ITU race is hardly at that same level.

Are these guys RIDICULOUSLY fit, absolutely. Could most/any of us hold a candle to them or do what they do? No, so this is not a shot at their ability or the format of draft legal racing, but how this race & many ITU races play out on the bike. I do think a lot needs to be learned about the dynamics of how draft legal cycling can play into the hands of the weaker runners & I don't think that's happening right now.

Case in point, watch the 3-guys off the front in yesterday's race. Every few minutes they're sitting up, riding 2 abreast, big gaps from wheel to wheel. Watch a pro cycling race where there is a 3-man break & 99% of the time it looks like a TTT. If there was more strategy in place among those 3 that gap could have been double b/c the chase group was so disheveled I doubt they would have been organized enough to coordinate the efforts of 30-guys when 3 at the front can't do it.

I'm not really for/against the draft legal format as I think it does make for an interesting element, but I wish the bike segment would be more reminiscent of professional cycling's dynamics & less like a Sunday club ride.

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Brian Shea
http://www.PersonalBestNutrition.com
Open-Water/Masters Swimming at the Jersey Shore:
Monmouth County NJ Ocean Swim/Masters Workouts

That would go along way to make it a truly individual event, good idea.

Very good post, Brian. That's what I saw as well. Amateur hour on the bike, run like hell. The best runners prevailed. And back to the point of enforcing drafting(the reason this version of the sport was made), how hard would it be to enforce drafting on this small a field? If the sport was the same, perhaps we would have more young athletes opting to compete, but it is very dissimilar to the sport we do. Les Macdonald's solution that it's too much work to amange the field of what, 80?, has distanced the sport from most of us.

I agree...They are great athletes, and I'm sure its very difficult. But MAN IS IT BORING AS HELL TO WATCH. I would much rather watch the full coverage of an ironman event.

I understand the very differing viewpoints - although I guess my experience shows that people do have the ability to make an educated decision after only a couple of races. I agree with you, that people should not be so unfair - as long as they realize the dynamics and that ITU style and non-drafting really are two (2) very different sports with completely different dynamics.

Personally, after helping start a club back in the 90's that grew to being pretty large, and then watching these online forums grow and flourish over the past 8-9 years, one thing that seems very apparent to me here in the U.S. Many non-athletic types (or at least those who were not athletic growing up) check out triathlon to test their own individual capabilities. They don't want to do group rides, many don't watch any bicycle racing (I personally can't go to live road cycling events i.e. crits because they bore me to death - although I spent some time watching some shorter track racing on the North Shore of Chicago), and they certainly don't want to become a part of that. This is probably because the biggest exposure triathlon really gets here in the U.S. is because of NBC and Kona, and they have heard for years about people overcoming their own demons, etc. and personal achievement. It really is a large part of the "draw" to triathlon here in the U.S.

I do see a philosophical difference than with the faster age groupers/elite racers - who will compete with anyone else, any time, any where, and thus - don't mind the pack issues. I would also suspect the longer people participate in triathlon, the more they are willing to accept another style of racing as they look for NEW ventures (which also leads some to off road triathlons, adventure racing, etc.).

Personally, I know of alot of people who are like me (long live the vast majority of IM competitors who come in AFTER 12 hours :-). We had a tendency to have better success against our friends in individual non-drafting type races or time trials. I'd get it handed to me by a few friends of mine every time we did group rides, etc., but the joy of beating them during non-drafting events is - well - braggable :-)

I'd also probably debate Monty on which type of racing is more "cerebral", as knowing how to meticulously plan and execute everything individually (especially why I like IM - it CAN take the "talent" out of it if people don't have intelligence on how to race i.e. training, peaking, pacing, nutrition, etc.). As a life long "team" athlete, the individuality of triathlon as it was created is still the big draw for me (and many I know).

oh...and be careful of your analogies...you're showing your colors by using skate skiing and nordic skiing comparison? (which will blow over the heads of probably 80% of your American audience :-) LOL - you might as well use curling while you're at it :-) Either way, perhaps the OP did jump to a conclusion on what "should" be done, and probably should have left it that he saw his first ITU race and just was not as interested in it. I know I don't even watch or record ITU style racing (even in the Olympics). I just wait for Herbert's expert synopsis so I can know who the new players are should they ever migrate over to the non-drafting and/or IM style of racing.

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Craig Preston - President / Preston Presentations
Saving the world with more professional, powerful, and persuasive presentations - one audience at a time.

Case in point, watch the 3-guys off the front in yesterday's race. Every few minutes they're sitting up, riding 2 abreast, big gaps from wheel to wheel. \\

You see, you did not watch it close enough. WHat I saw was a guy(the Mexican) who was over his head in the break, and could not take a decent pull and recover. The others thought he was sandbagging, but the truth was, he was just not strong enough to take his pulls. Just like a lot of bike races,(not the 99% of breakaways you see I guess) there is often some grumbling about who is not pulling their weight. But for comparisons sake, take the end of the bike races, and then tell be about all the smooth pull throughs. It becomes very tatical, and there is a lot of sitting on and trying to sandbag before the finish. Then when there were two left, one was definately stronger, and he dropped the other on the climb. Like a good cyclist would, he looked back, and waited for the guy so they could at least two man to the finish...I saw nothing in that break that I haven't seen in professional bike races....

And you cannot compare professional cycling to ITU triathlon in a direct sense. When you talk about the chess match of a bike race, of course it is more cooridnated, they have teams of 9 guys, all with the same goal. WHat if you only had the captains of each team racing against each other, that is what an ITU event is like at the moment. I gurantee it would not be so chess like as you say, it would be like the finishing 10k of a 10 man break that is clear, with no overlapping teamates..Not that it could not get more organized, team Canada and Spain are taking the first baby steps that direction, but it is still a long way off from becoming a true team sport..Ask what your bike racing buddy that had so much disdain for the race, what he would have done, by himslef in a pack of 50 riders, to break away, and stick??? And remember there are no leader boards, no managers with headphones in you ears to tell you who, and how far someone is ahead of you, and no teamates to do your dirty work.. It is not nearly as easy to get away in an ITU race, as it is in a bike race, so I think his perspective is a little skewed..

DO I think that triathletes understand bike tatics as well as bike racers, no. But it is not the same tatic that can be applied to each, and the triathletes have only been doing this style for a short time. They are smart guys, but there is a much heavier burden put on them in the tatics arena, because it is all on them, or whoever they can link up with at random.. DO I think that Matty Reed should have gotten with some other countries great bikers and planned a from the back attack, and tried to get a good gap, sure. But that is not a likley scenario for him at an olympics, just like teams in the RR with only a rider or two, cannot control the peleton..Look at the olympic RR. We had a pretty good team, some of them sacraficed everything for the team, but they sitll came up short. Imagine that all those guys just rode for themselves, and how much harder it would have been to even have a chance at a medal, there is you ITU bike ride......

dominant cyclists also used to dominate the shorter races. Watching Michellie Jones riding over the Chicago River during Mrs. T's with a HUGE lead (I think one of the races I remember she was a good 10 minutes up on the next competitor)....or Craig Walton back in the day....



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Craig Preston - President / Preston Presentations
Saving the world with more professional, powerful, and persuasive presentations - one audience at a time.

How come everybody is all up in arms about drafting on the bike, but has no problem with drafting on the swim?

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Go that way really fast. If something gets in your way, turn.

In principle you are right but I can think of some differences.

Such as? I'm not trying to be a jerk or agrumentative - but I just don't get what the real difference is. I suppose you don't get as much of an advantage drafting in swimming as you do in cycling - but there is definitely an advantage. Enforcing drafting in the swimming would be a nightmare - but obviously many races can't/won't enforce it on the bike either. If drafting off the bike and staying in a pack unfairly rewards good runners, then drafting off the swim unfairly rewards good cyclists, since they'll be closer to the swim leaders coming out of the water and won't have to work as hard to catch them.

I understand the agrument behind making sure Tri's are a true test of individual abilities - but as long as group dynamics are allowed in the swim and the run, it doesn't seem like it's quite there.

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Go that way really fast. If something gets in your way, turn.

You mention the policing already but there seems to be more happenstance to drafting in swim compared to the bike that it would be trickier to execute as a plan.

Disclaimer, the above is supposition, I have enough difficulty seeing the next bouy much less worry about drafting, though there was a really pretty pair of size 6's with pink toe nail polish that kept my attention for a while earlier this year. Then the gun went off.

Question for the elites: How much situational awareness do you truly have on the swim? Do you typically know who you are drafting off, if in the lead pack, position in the pack etc.?

What would be more boring, the current draft-legal format or time-trial format where swimmers dive into the water every 30 seconds?

I would watch the latter because I would be interested in seeing the most well-rounded triathlete have the best chance to win the race and because the elements I find most attractive about the sport would still be there to watch, i.e. the course, the beauty of the body in motion in the three disciplines, the effort to push the body to the limit and the competition to see who can complete the course in the fastest time.

I enjoyed the current format, but if I was the emperor of the ITU, I would command the time-trial start.