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Re: Olympic format, why bother with swim/bike? [TriStrut] [ In reply to ]
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but I just don't get what the real difference is.\\

First of all the swim is now the first event..It didn't used to be that way, over half the races I did in 79 and 80, had the swim last. No drafting going on there, but of course the bike allowed drafting in those races. Secondly, the sport did not understand drafting in the early days, in any of the sports, but especially swimming..Even now, watch the overhead view of an Ironman, and it is a giant pyramid that forms, the front swimmers lining up, and the rest fanning out to a huge base, and almost all pulling water..

Once the swim first format was implemented, it became impratical to do anything about drafting in the water. ANd after John Howard TT'ed behind his van in the 80 Ohau Ironman(4:28 split I think), the rest of us began to notice how much easier it was to ride behind someone. Once it was settled swim first, then it was easy to make the bike a ITT, because there were so few competitors, and it was self enforced. THis worked out well until 82", when the first prize money began to surface. But enforcement was still managable because of the small numbers, but from that point until today, the controversy has continued..Only now, they have to deal with 3000 person fields, and often with no wave starts on loop courses.. That is the evolution of where we came to this point on non drafting on the bike, and why it is considered OK and moral to do it during the swim..It's all about being pratical, and accomadating more and more athletes, just that it doesn't seem to be working out so well. Not that it ever did after 82, just getting worse and worse, to the point that many new athletes have never done a race where they didn't draft, or see most others doing it. It's becoming morally accepted in the sport, because of the perception that everyone else is doing it.....
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Re: Olympic format, why bother with swim/bike? [RayPlotecia] [ In reply to ]
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I like the way you think, you should run for the USAT board or something like that, you'd be good at it.
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Re: Olympic format, why bother with swim/bike? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Monty, thanks for the answer.

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Go that way really fast. If something gets in your way, turn.
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Re: Olympic format, why bother with swim/bike? [TriStrut] [ In reply to ]
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How come everybody is all up in arms about drafting on the bike, but has no problem with drafting on the swim?
Drafting someone who is near your ability on the swim can save energy for sure, but it is hard to draft someone who is faster than you in open/rough water and actually save energy - at some point it becomes impossible, if they are significantly faster and don't want you there. Yes, 'packs' can form, but again they are usually people of somewhat similar ability, some purposely trying to conserve some energy, or, people swimming over their head hanging on, getting some benefit but burning themselves out for a relatively small gain, maybe a net loss on the day. There aren't effective pacelines (among amateurs anyway) or 1:45/100 swimmers jumping on to the tail of a pack of 1:20/100 swimmers as they go by - not for very long anyway. On the bike, a drafter can save considerably more energy, or go way faster than they could on their own, for way longer, or both (easier and faster). It's just a much bigger factor. The difficulty of, and (relatively) minimal benefit of swim drafting reduces its impact on the end results. There's potential for useful drafting on the run as well...but neither is likely to affect as many outcomes as decisively as bike drafting can. From a personal point of view, I know if someone can draft me in a no wetsuit swim, they are probably pretty close to me in ability. If it annoys me, I can slow a bit to become a less attractive target, and they'll move along to someone else, if they are really trying to gain an advantage. Intentional wheelsucking on the bike is a completely different story - it turns the ability-results correlation on its head. As far as the swim goes, if I had to choose between some sort of prohibition on drafting, and a lower wetsuits-disallowed temperature, I'd far prefer the latter - wetsuits artificially compress the field (the age group field, not the olympic field) much more than swim drafting.

Edit: I should say - what I typed above pertains to age group racing and the general question of why age groupers don't really (need to) care that much about swim drafting. If we're just talking about the olympics, which we are in this thread, then yeah, there's a whole lot more true drafting going on in the swim among that field of elites, and the dynamics of that and how it relates to the beginning of the bike leg and how the race shakes out are a lot different...it would definitely be interesting to see how that olympic field would have come out of the water if they hadn't been allowed to draft in the water...hard to manage that though and still have a head to head race.
Last edited by: skip: Aug 19, 08 15:10
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Re: Olympic format, why bother with swim/bike? [BrianPBN] [ In reply to ]
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in what is arguably the most prestigious title in draft-legal racing.

Brian,

Great post. You made some good points. Your quote above does sum it up, though - this was the race that you are likely to see the most conservative racing in the whole year of ITU racing, because it is so prestigious and so much is at stake. So to draw conclusion from this one race, as some are doing here in this thread, is a bit unfair.




Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Olympic format, why bother with swim/bike? [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Some Sporting Events just don't transfer well to TV viewing that's what it all comes down to. Even sports that are considered "mainstream" can be very boring to watch on TV. Just check out the ratings for a regular season baseball game that don't have the Red Sox or Yankees playing. Yawn fest. I run all sorts of endurance races and I still found it impossible to sit through the NBC complete coverage of the women's marathon.
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Re: Olympic format, why bother with swim/bike? [tolojr] [ In reply to ]
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Some Sporting Events just don't transfer well to TV viewing that's what it all comes down to.

I agree, but like beauty, I think the attractivness of a sport is in the eye of the beholder. True fans of a sport will watch it any time and any where. I was in Kenya in 1995 when the world Track & Field Championships were going on. We were walking down a street in Nairobi and in a dirty and dusty vacant lot someone had hooked up a black & White TV and set it on a table. There were about 150 people all standing there in the dirt watching the track races on the BBC and having a great time. We joined in and watched to.




Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Olympic format, why bother with swim/bike? [coachct] [ In reply to ]
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The top tier of ITU triathletes are the best runners in the sport (you guessed correctly) with few exceptions, but you don't make a very convincing argument re: limited impact of swim and bike, when you admit that you don't follow ITU racing.
LOL.....sure okay......or maybe its just not that fucking difficult to see which sport matters significantly more than the others.
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Re: Olympic format, why bother with swim/bike? [jacknine] [ In reply to ]
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I agree, It was really dull watching it online. It must have not been much better watching it ive from the stands in the heat. I have done ITU and World Cup's back in the day, I have the utmost respect for the guys out there killing it on the circuit, however the races can be dull even for the athletes. What makes a good ITU style race is the course! This course looked really boring. The glassy 1 loop swim kept everyone together, the wide non-technical, non-climby course again kept everyone together, and it turns into a running race. Breaks do happen, sometimes there are 2 large groups chasing 2-3 guys off the front and everyone is killing it on the bike and the run becomes awesome. There is nothing wrong with this style of racing... I have done some really fun and exiting races, I have also done some real crappy ITUs. The courses must be hard to be fun for the spectators and the athletes.
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Re: Olympic format, why bother with swim/bike? [jacknine] [ In reply to ]
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The last mile would have been enough. 2 hours of garbage time that even the announcers had a hard time filling. Same with the marathons. Give me badminton, weightlifting, even team handball. At least there was some semblance of drama.
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Re: Olympic format, why bother with swim/bike? [flclyde] [ In reply to ]
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Have you ever played team handball? Tough game, lots of action. Think ice hockey with a ball.
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Re: Olympic format, why bother with swim/bike? [jacknine] [ In reply to ]
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Have never played, but I'm in agreement with you. Great action, and it looks like a lot of fun. Now if the U.S. could put together a group of ex-MLB pitchers, 3rd basemen, shortstops & right fielders who still have cannons & can move a little bit, we may just have a contender! ;)
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Re: Olympic format, why bother with swim/bike? [flclyde] [ In reply to ]
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Its a natural sport for the US.
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Re: Olympic format, why bother with swim/bike? [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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make any argument you want but when you have 40 people in a pack heading into T2 to go out on the run it means that the swim and bike times for those 40 only deviated by mere secounds.....the seperation of times occurs only on the run for those 40....

its hard to take make a credible argument that the swim and bike matter in ITU racing when these are the facts.....
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Re: Olympic format, why bother with swim/bike? [Steve-oH!] [ In reply to ]
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its hard to take make a credible argument that the swim and bike matter in ITU racing when these are the facts..... \\

Open your mind a bit. The amount of energy required to get everyone to that point is not static. Each person had to put out a level of energy and effort to start the run together, and it is very different from top to bottom. I think others have said this, but most all world class events in endurance sports have this dynamic. Cycling, running, OW swimming, all have large groups up to a certain point, and then the sorting out begins towards the end of the races.. You have to under the nuances of the sport in order to really appreciate it. Sure the clock says 50 guys started the run within 10 seconds, that is your fact, but don't neglect what it took each athlete to get to that point. That is the race, they were not magically transported to that point like you seem to suggest....
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Re: Olympic format, why bother with swim/bike? [jacknine] [ In reply to ]
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Here are the few things we should keep in mind

1. If you can't swim very well, you have no business in ITU. You'll be last out of the water if you swim 1:20/100m pace. Basically 10-15sec away from the pack, you are over.
2. On the bike, they'll be going at pretty decent clip at 40+kph. It's not a flat course, and it's not like they are going at contant speeds. You still have to respond to attacks. You can also get dropped at the hills, and it's all over.
3. Run like a bat out of hell. The leaders can run 29-30min/10K because they are FREAKS.

Some people in the forum mentioned about making the distances longer 4/60/10.
This format does not make sense in the real world.
The whole idea behind ITU format is to keep the race under 2hrs. The attention span of most viewers can bare. You drag the event 3-4hrs just doesn't work.

Have anyone seen the 10K OW swim? Everyone finish secs apart. Making the distances longer does not solve the problem. It just make the competitor more tired, and slower race, aka not as just to watch.

If you make it draft illegal, it doesn't really make sense either.
You've got 30-40 guys coming out of the water, all going full out at the start of the bike.
How in the world are you going enforce drafting rules?
How are you going to get people line up 10m apart? ..... with 30-40 guys, that's like 400m.
So is anyone gone to pass 10guys separated by 10m going 40+kph in 15-30sec to avoid drafting calls?

Don't know about everyone else, but I thought the race was really exciting. I never feel that kinda excitement in IM.

I think in the next 5years, another generation of triathletes will come along like Gomez and change the sport. Basically a kick ass triathlete who can do it all.
There's more money in ITU and glory than in IM, so the talent will gravitate towards it.
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Re: Olympic format, why bother with swim/bike? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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...guess its like that "spinner" in the japanese game show thing.....strap everyone in and spin them around in a chair and then they have to run to the finish....the wim and bike is the "spinner" in ITU racing....

now I get your point...
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Re: Olympic format, why bother with swim/bike? [Steve-oH!] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
make any argument you want but when you have 40 people in a pack heading into T2 to go out on the run it means that the swim and bike times for those 40 only deviated by mere secounds.....the seperation of times occurs only on the run for those 40....

its hard to take make a credible argument that the swim and bike matter in ITU racing when these are the facts.....


I hate it when people ignore facts. For example, it's a fact that in the Athens Olympics, a lead group broke away on the bike, and the gold medalist was part of the pack. Or the fact that other people on this thread have brought up other races where someone broke away on the bike and held on to win (I think a women's race involving Sarah Haskins). Those are all facts - and yet everyone seem to be ignoring them when they say that the swim and bike don't matter in ITU racing.

Yes, the Beijing race turned out in such a way that everyone came in together into T2. That does not mean every ITU race goes that way. There's nothing wrong with liking non-drafting races over drafting races, and I don't want to come off as condescending by saying people dont "understand" ITU. Maybe you still would have been bored with the Athens race or the Women's world race, but facts are facts - those are races where people did make a break on the bike and hold on to win.

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Last edited by: TriStrut: Aug 20, 08 10:57
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Re: Olympic format, why bother with swim/bike? [Steve-oH!] [ In reply to ]
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put it this way... do you honestly think that Frodeno is the best pure runner in the field, ie for a standalone 10K? Somehow, I doubt it next to guys like Gomez, Rana, Kahfeldt, Whitfield, but he was able to outrun all of those guys in the Olympic Triathlon.

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Re: Olympic format, why bother with swim/bike? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Open your mind a bit.

Mark,

Indeed. There seem to be more than a few who don't seem to get it.

1. You are right, at this level in any race, no matter what the race, the main field will stay together for 2/3 to 3/4 of the race and then it's separation time. I saw this for myself at the IAAF World Cross Country running championships in Edinburgh - close to 200 men started and were all separated by a few seconds for the first 2/3 of the 12K race - then it was the all African affair at the front after that, and everyone else went bye bye!

2. Another contributing factor to the mis-understanding with folks is that it seems, some/many think that it's a laugher sitting in a pack on the bike at 40+ kmh or more. I challenge these people to try it some time. Of course, they won't cause they never group ride with a serious road group nor do they road race and know how hard this is to do.




Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Olympic format, why bother with swim/bike? [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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it seems, some/many think that it's a laugher sitting in a pack on the bike at 40+ kmh or more. I challenge these people to try it some time.

Pfffft - I do that all the time! And I'm laughing at how quickly I get spit out the back and lose them over the horizon...


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Re: Olympic format, why bother with swim/bike? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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If they don't matter, then why aren't the Kenyans and Ethiopians dominating triathlon?
Let me check Cervelo's sales from it's Nairobi and Addis Abba distributers and I'll get back to you on that.

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Re: Olympic format, why bother with swim/bike? [Gandalf] [ In reply to ]
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So the bike DOES matter then....

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Re: Olympic format, why bother with swim/bike? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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So the bike DOES matter then....
Owning a bike matters.

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Re: Olympic format, why bother with swim/bike? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Monty your post was just perfect!

I too started long ago with this sport and for some reason I have always liked the non drafting rule better, for me making drafting legal is like saying: Well fck it if we can do nothing about it just let it be!

Much more harmful, but just for the sake of the analogy: its like with drugs, some people say well if you can't fight dealers lets make it legal and forget about it.... (I know is much more complicated than that but....)

Back to the olympics... the swim was fun to watch, the bike was terrible and the run was awesome... For me the old format with the TT bikes could be spectacular, more places changing hands, more aggressive in the other disciplines... but then again without that run finish!!! so its a coin flip, for me I like non drafting events... and with only 55 athletes in the olympics it could be the perfect place to enforce the rule... but thats just me I guess.

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