Given what ~30% of any Ironman field is female, will that mean the qualification time need for a WC spot will be...er, just finish.

Bit tongue in cheek I know, but with 2,500 women on the start how low will that time need to go.

Anyone know what the qualifying standard was this year for the women's race?

i don't know but when i began racing IM the women were 8% of the field. so, whatever it is we've been doing to get that to increase 4-fold, we probably ought to keep doing it.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Legacy and Executive slots are a small percentage of the total. To claim that is what is filling up the pier is a stretch. The increase in slots is mostly from qualified athletes.

The interesting part is I think the 2 day event and women only race was hugely successful, yet I think removing it from the men's weekend is going to have a "muted" feeling to it moving forward. And I dont necessarily mean the coverage of it, but I mean the full "show" of it- vendors, the week long vibe / build up, what makes Kona "special"....will that still be there?. And I'm saying that not as any disrespect to the women's movement, but the moment you put them apart, you are putting both on their own island, and we'll get to see just how much support the sport throws at both parties. And again, this is meant as no disrespect, I like tri because it's a lot like tennis, you go to the US Open and you watch 2 men's matches, 2 women's matches, a mixed team double match all with 1 ticket. Even if it's 2 different days, you atleast play off each other.

Moving them apart kinda makes it much more nba vs wnba type of vibe imo. And I don't think that's necessarily a good thing imo. Now we'll really get to see how much we "support" each gender essentially. (there is already a huge disparity in KQ numbers within the genders, I just dont see it as a *great* thing to move the race off what it is now).

ETA: I'm in favor of moving it off Kona and or a rotation but keeping the race weekend as it is. I guess this is the locals saying "no mas" to the 2 day format, which is understandable. I also don't think it can go back to the "mixed" race anymore, especially after the "success" the women's only days have had.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I think this was the news for the press conference held today...

https://www.velonews.com/events/tour-de-france/tour-de-france-organizers-confirm-nice-time-trial-finish-in-2024/

Spot On! Great comment.

Not sure if this has been said but the Legacy Program is the easiest way to Maximize profits. You get one dummy (myself included) to pay a ridiculous entry fee at minimum 12 times....

They needed to 'target' me once and I delivered 12X.

Simple math tells me, that is maximizing profits.

Woman here who agrees with you. The vibe will be incredibly different and it's almost by default going to be a secondary event to whatever the men's race is.

I get that we want to grow the sport for women too. I have no idea what will help do that. However, I will say I feel that if this alternative location is in Nice, and in 2024 the women will be racing there, I don't think that is going to be a great way to entice more women to race. Maybe the first year when people don't quite know what they're getting into. But isn't the bike course at Nice incredibly challenging? Sure, that's nice for the pros and for those that are top athletes at the top of their age groups. But I'm not sure it's a great way to get women interested in the sport by having women qualifying who are finishing way down in their age groups and then putting them on a bike course that is going to just demoralize a good percentage of them. I don't think that we want to have an "easy" course either, I'm just saying that much of this "let's get more women into the sport" talk seems nice in theory but I don't know that any of it will actually do anything to help that.

the bike course is not incredibly challenging in nice. it's incredibly scenic, and it's got hills in it, for sure. but they're not steep, and the total elevation is reasonable. it is a course on par with other moderately difficult (i.e., not florida) IM courses.

nice is a terrific destination for a big, long distance triathlon, and has been since the mid 1980s. if you race there you'll love that experience. not for others perhaps, but for me it beats kona with a stick as a race location. i can't speak for others or for women, but for 3/4 of the racing world what is demoralizing is the expense and difficulty of getting to kona. so, while i'm glad kona remains as half the WC equation because of the history, women who race in nice - if that is indeed where the WC will be held for women in 2024 - will take part in a historic event. if i was a woman, living anywhere from the east cost of the U.S. to asia, or in africa, and you gave me the choice of nice or kona, i'd take nice for sure. in fact, if i was a woman living in hawaii i would still take nice over kona.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Probably Nice is one of the worst races to encourage women to participate in Ironman due to the characteristics of the bike course (pretty technical for most of the women standards). Last 70.3 WC Nice women's race was carnage .
The venue though is fantastic and probably one of the best outside Kona.
IMO splitting men from women is a mistake but I might be wrong.
My wife still races and has zero interest in doing IM WC Nice or Kona women only races if that's gonna be the next scenario.

(I did Nice ITU WC more than 20 years ago , year 2000).

My 2 cents.

I must be the real sucker than because I did my 12 before the Legacy Program ever existed.

I may be naïve but I believe the program was genuinely create to reward existing customers, not drive sales for new customers.

men and women have been racing those roads since the early 80s. i never found those roads technically challenging. if you put too many people on the same stretch of road at the same time then, yes, that's a challenge. that's what IM wants to guard against on that course. otherwise it's a moderately technical, moderately challenging course, honoring a WC status.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Yeah, Dan is correct, I have raced there and trained there and the roads are really just great, with some climbing sure, and some turning sure, but overall the roads are a joy to ride on.

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"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go." T.S. Elliot | Cycle2Tri.com
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This should be construed as sexist but probably has some truth.

However, bike handling skills are a part of racing, and we shouldn't dumb down things so that people don't have to learn them.

I've never understood the fascination with Queen K. It's boring as hell to ride, basically an island highway. Pretty much anything in Europe is better.

If we start worrying a bike course may be too technical, or too difficult elevation-wise, at a World Championship event, then we must be doing something very wrong.

Similarly, one can't be afraid sponsors won't show up at a female-only event next year in Kona. Otherwise it's admitting male and female racing are vastly different, and among other things prize money shouldn't be equal since the female race sort of survives thanks the male one. Let's just hope IM does a good job at running the female-only Kona 2023 race, and also that everyone who's (rightly so) asking for equality, shows up to support the event.

No real opinion on the bike course other than I think a more technical course will make the pro race way more fun.

What I am interested in is if they keep the 4 loop run course and how that affects race dynamics. With the extra out and back in there too there is potential for the leader to see the chaser(s) up to 3 times EACH LAP and vice versa. I know the pros are getting splits and stuff all the time anyways, but gotta be some psychological stuff to actually SEEING the gap to your nearest competition so often.

Nice is technical compared to Kona. Otherwise, it's not particularly technical. I'm far from being a solid bike handler as will desert dude and a few here can attest to, but Nice, aside from one descent with 2 hairpins if I recall would not rate as technical for the vast vast majority of riders in Europe.
This might be a consequence of the course selection in NA (not sure where you live) though. Most courses are not technical at all and on big highways.

There are never issues with the courses, the organizers, the race date, who competes, etc.? That's what I mean by it not being plain and simple.

Anyone have a clue on the 2024 date?


Knowing IRONMAN, they probably haven't even approached the island yet and they are advertising it ~100 weeks in advance without approval.

Let's just hope IM does a good job at running the female-only Kona 2023 race, and also that everyone who's (rightly so) asking for equality, shows up to support the event.

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There's just no way that happens especially if race numbers aren't there to actually support the costs that many vendors will have. So there's going to be some casualties in this at min 2 year experiment. And that really has nothing to do with "equality" or male female, it has to do with race numbers. If you can't fill a race, you simply won't get the "circus" vibe that we all want when we go to Kona. It has way more to do with race numbers than an "equality" thing imo.

ETA: 100% IM will make it what it always is, but the entire "circus" that it normally is, will be very much muted imo. I think the broadcast will be great, but the behind the scenes will be very different.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Wouldn't the number of participants to female-only Kona 2023 be roughly the same as what we used to have on that same island everyone included just several years ago?

In theory yes it should be. You can only put what ~2500 total on race day there, but I don't believe the Women numbers are near that.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

How will this work out if a husband-wife couple qualify? One trip to Kona and one to Nice would be quite expensive. (haven't read all the pages so maybe it was discussed)