Agree with this too. I think the idea of a bipolar Ironman world is overdue, and in the long term interests of the sport (as well as the business).
And once you're picking a second location, hard to beat Nice for potential to become a second icon on the circuit - long course pedigree, distinctive course, tough conditions, photogenic etc. It will only work if they commit to a fixed second location for the long term. If it's Kona + roaming second location they will never feel equal.
Feel for couples who want to race at world champs together (unfortunately they must be a very small customer segment) and even more so for people whose existing plans for 2023 have been disrupted.

A question for some of the people complaining -

Would you be happy for Ironman to cancel the legacy slot award to help reduce numbers and make it a "true" World Champs in Kona?

If not, then you are really not in a position to complain about Ironman maximising profit, when the whole legacy program arguably cheapens the "WC" element by it's very nature, and is in part no doubt designed to maxmise profit.

I think it's a good move to shift it around. Will open up new avenues of interest.

+1

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Janyne

Kona has been a dream for many AG, but my current feeling is that the ~10000$ required to go and stay there and the reported local hatred against triathletes makes the dream maybe not worth living it. Also it'd be worth mentioning the huge CO2 impact of flying 5000 athletes + many friends there. CO2-wise, Kona might just be the worst place in the world to host an Ironman WC.

Sure we've been fed with tons of images about "the Kona myth", but really... is it the course that made the myth? or those polished NBC and WTC videos that continue to flow year after year?
I've been watching the pro race live during the last few years, and really it seems to be more and more boring. There must be a better course.

Kona's been great. There are many other great places - even outside the USA, believe it or not, my Murican friends ;) - and Nice is one of them.

The ongoing events reminds me of some historical episodes in Europe when major soccer teams got a new stadium.
1 The fans are angry because their stadium is too small, too old, the seats are not comfortable or whatever.
2 The new stadium is under construction, the fans start protesting "we'll never leave our historical stadium, that's where our memories are".
3 They go to the new stadium and enjoy the game.

Yes to the first question.

If it is to be a true world championship, then qualifying should be a high standard. Win your age group to get a slot. No roll downs. Theres a few different ways to expand on this depending on the number of qualifying races and spots available on the Kona pier. One option would be to add more spots to the regional championship races. Top 3 in AG get spots. No roll downs.

You may be correct but there is a difference between IM and the PTO. The PTO is an member based organization kind'a like the PGA. They can make rules like maternity leave for its members. There are no members for IM. IM is a company that runs races. Huge difference.

Nope. Not a chance

An entry to Ironman Nice end of June 2023 currently costs 650 euros.
If the price for the same event labelled "World Champs" 2 months later on basically the same course is confirmed to be 1600 euros, as someone else mentioned on this thread, it's a bit much for the extra finishers towels you get. In any case, 1600 euros to register for any race is completely insane.

On the roll downs and how competitive it will be, I agree that many Europeans around me are fired up and want to race Nice WC. So they may be long roll downs in the US and Australia/NZ/Asia, probably less so in Europe. Ironman will adjust the slot allocation to races accordingly I suppose

+1 on the CO2 impact

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It doesn't get easier, you just get slower
https://mymsracesironman.home.blog/

I agree with everything that you said. I'm complaining and pretty upset because this was done mid-cycle with no warning and under false pretenses (aka that they had an agreement for a 2 day race signed). I'm pretty angry about being out $500 for no reason besides Ironman's greed in holding a 2 day WC THIS year and giving the finger to the men who paid $1500 each to race in Kona on 10/14/2023. There's a lot more people who are out WAY more money for being proactive about booking after the horror stories of last year. We are IM's most loyal customers, it's wrong to so blatantly disregard people who've spent spent so much with the brand (qualifying race(s) plus Kona at min).

IM should've swallowed their pride, taken the L, and held a one day race this year and began this rotation in 2024. Limit the slots by changing all races from May onwards to be 2024 qualified and adjust slots accordingly. But their using the excuse of promoting women's racing and stories to hide behind pure greed. Which is ironic because most of the women on FB that I've seen WANT to race with the men in one WC!

Really difficult sell this 1600E cost for a race, especially when it is not hidden in a 20k vacation cost, as Hawaii kind was (although last I did it in 2018, I think the registration cost was maybe ~900?).

I really wonder if they even manage to fill the female race when it is in Nice/Europe (or even the male one) if it has such extra cost. How do we think the people who did Kona broke down in terms the main reason doing it:

- It is WC, want to race the best? 10 people per age group?
- The WC experience of seeing all top pro's and somewhat bigger show around the race (for show and atmosphere, I would recommend Roth). 20% or less, somewhat draw for many, but for what cost? Would Roth sell out if it was 1600,- instead 600,- (also risen like crazy, I think my 2020 original registration was 400)
- Because it is Kona! 80-90%


I would guess the latter would be happy to race WC elsewhere if it was same cost as normal race. Interesting to see.

what you write about is not surprising to me because its team, and because it's northern europe. if you go to an IM race just about anywhere in europe the most represented nationality is, of course, the country the race is held in. the second most was, until pretty recently and probably still is, the UK. a part if this is because the UK has been more gender egalitarian. the list of countries like this is pretty short. canada, the US, new zealand, australia. there's a reason why those countries field such strong womens olympic triathlon teams. this is less so in southern europe. you just don't see a third of the field in a triathlon on spain or italy made up of women, or at least you didn't the last time i looked at the stats. until pretty recently among italian or spanish nationals an IM in italy or spain might be 90 percent men. women until recently (and perhaps not even now) been highly represented in southern europe. this is why i think it will be fantastic to see 3000 women taking over the streets of nice (if that is where the race is held).

my stats might be outdated so my views might be outdated about women's participation rates in ironman in mediterranean countries. i hope they are. but if they're not then i suspect that's in part because endurance sport opportunities are less for women during their formative sports years. this is why i think the optics of an event like this in nice could really be big. and i don't mean the optics as in the idea, i mean the optics. the pictures. the visuals. i fully intend to be there to witness this.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Well, Kipchoge is planning to do Boston as of today. :)

Definitely

cool news. but still. Talking about boston and kona.... have we not learned something from covid? 2 year wipe out of all legacy, streaks, and history. It all has become meainingless. A world championship is a set time and place where all the best come to compete, plain and simple (referencing that other thread saying kona is the only WC)

Agree that a world championship is a set time and place where (most of) the best come to compete, but it's certainly not plain and simple. ;)

It would be cool if IM took a page out of their StG 70.3 WC book and came up with a different run course for IMWC Nice. Probably not many options going west along the Promenade, but going east they could take it past the harbor and even add some elevation. A loop thru the park at Mont Boron would be epic.

this is why i think it will be fantastic to see 3000 women taking over the streets of nice (if that is where the race is held).


I agree it would be great to see, but do you think they would get 3000 women, especially if they plan to keep the cost at 1600,- or what ever it is then?

Kona 2022 had 1300 or so and add the questions about location, Kona allure etc...might be a tough one

Could head towards Menton and Monaco and then even Italy. Amazing courses over that way.

This might be too long for a run course ;)



On another note, how cheaper (or more expensive) will it be for WTC to host WC in Nice rather than Kona?

The best thing to do with the legacy system is leave it in Kona. Rotate the WC around, but keep Kona as a "normal IM" with a weighted lottery system. Entry is proportional to the number of IMs you've done in the past 10 years, with 10/10 securing you a spot. The WC can come back on important milestones, or as the city has the stomach for 2 day events every so often.

Either Kona will continue to sell out every year, as a heritage course, or the need for a legacy system will evaporate.

i don't know. but i remember when the europeans started not coming to kona and i'm talking about the male pros. i might misremember but i think it was rainer mueller who first said "no mas" to kona because you had to get 3rd place in the pro race to earn back just your expenses. and he was himself a 3rd place finisher in kona. we don't know how many europeans don't race kona because of the cost. for that matter, how many who live on the east coast of the U.S.? it's 5hr to nice from NYC, and it's 10hr to kona. kona has become a remote and expensive trip for most of the world.

as to whether 3000 will show in nice, let's say it's 2,400. or 2,200. it's got to start somewhere. when i first traveled to kona to compete in the hawaiian ironman world championships fewer than 20 women were in the race.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

If you look at it the other way, they're having to dismantle the true World Championships because they overfilled the pier with hundreds of slots for their "legacy" frequent flyer program, their lucrative "Executive Challenge" at like $15,000 a race etc.

I'm not an athlete who would ever KQ, but I feel badly for those who won't experience it as it was, and I think the fans of the sport are losing something special. Kona WC always seemed like a "homecoming" of sorts. Everyone in the long distance tri community converged on the Island one weekend a year. Vendors, athletes, fans, media.

Now they've watered down the soup and only offer it every other year. It just won't be the same.

I've been lucky enough to race Kona.
It took me years to get a spot.
Without doubt if it had been anywhere else I wouldn't have bothered.

Other than the year I raced it, I've watched it.
I didn't watch St George and I won't be watching anywhere else.

I suspect it'll fill. Pros don't care, AGers will still go. But I hope it fails miserably as an experiment.
The World champs should be 1 day, men & women, mass swim start and in Kona.

If I were Ironman I would have been wary of this move, and would have exhausted every other possibility of getting everyone to Kona every year. Whether that's back to a one day event, having two races in Oct/Feb or even just having it a pro-only race (last resort) I think with the new plan it's a dilution of the brand or ignorance of the Kona allure.

F1 wasn't born in Monaco, but if they moved the race course from the streets to a new stadium grounds a few miles away would you still watch? Golf wasn't born in Georgia but if they moved the Masters to a public course outside Atlanta would it still be the same? I kind of feel the same way about Kona.

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the world's still turning? >>>>>>> the world's still turning

Huh? That’s not how cycling works and it’s pretty epic watching the pros battle it out in different countries and courses every year.