Ironman Worldchampionship will be always Kona.. because it is the race all the Age Groupers wants to do at least once in life.

But I think that Ironman has problems managing the PRO race. And let's say that for the future generation endurance may not be something to be interested in (they love e-sports).

I would like to have a unified Triathlon Long Distance championship, where some events are from Challenge, some from Ironman, some maybe alternative organizators.

Kona could be one event, or one final... or an special event.

and a lot more of those AGers would be able to race Kona if it was a standard IM event during years where other locations are being used to host the IM World Champs... currently the AGers who race Kona are the qualifiers who can more or less train like a pro year round, not the other 95% of AG athletes.

The 70.3 Worlds is far more exciting with the changing of courses, where we get to see how different athletes fair across different conditions.

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@the.lazy.triathlete

https://www.strava.com/athletes/18691068

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That is just not true.The number of age groupers who train like pro's is a tiny percentage of the Kona age group field. Qualifiers are just talented or genetically gifted or they make the most of their training time or all of the above. Then we add in the Legacy crowd. You don't have to train like a Pro to be a good age grouper, you just need to train like a good age grouper.
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if you think about that:
the qualification is because there is more people who wants to run than slots.

without the qualification, the slots would be like in Challenge Roth a competition about who is online at registration starts and who has the best internet connection to fulfill the registration form. Roth record was sold out within less than 5 minutes I think.

If not a worldchampionship for age grouper, it may be true that many people would not race yearly.. but I don't think that many age grouper may race around the world.. like 70.3 there are races more demanded than others: for example Nice was crowded of europeans, Chatanoga was more for Americans, st George?... it could be a local race more than a world race.

I talk about age grouper and the dream of racing Kona. For pros the show, and the competition are important: we demand not only to see Kona as a race, but a world tour of races like Daytona with a competition with Top Level. Not a calendar of races and the pros looking where to qualify without racing against strong rivals if possible.

I didn't mean that quite as literally as you took it... though talent/genetics is way over stated in these forums, all those talented/genetic freaks all train a lot. At the very pointy end of races, sure.

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@the.lazy.triathlete

https://www.strava.com/athletes/18691068

I think the qualification is more to do with making it the world champs, not to do with the number wanting to compete at the event.

Or unlike Challenge Roth, it could be turned into a ballot in the same way a lot of large races are i.e. London Marathon.

There's already going to be plenty of top AG athletes who dont go to Kona despite qualifying due to costs etc... especially from europe. Hawaii isnt the cheapest to get to. Especially those who qualify multiple years, unless they are lucky enough to have the finances to continually return of course.

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@the.lazy.triathlete

https://www.strava.com/athletes/18691068

i really like the idea of a "majors" approach - tennis has some people who are good on hardcourt, clay, or grass, and the odd transcendent star that excels on all 3.

kona demands some very specific things, but a limited set of things. it would be great seeing championship courses like roth, that are drag races in good weather, or nice, that demand way more technical skill.

i guess part of the problem is that racing multiple IMs each year is too taxing, so you really can only have one or two 'majors' on the calendar.

saying that, i've been really happy to see that the half distance is becoming more and more competitive and 70.3 worlds is turning into a real shootout. i've long thought it's the more interesting distance and makes for the best racing. hopefully that can start to counterbalance kona a bit...

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____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

Just because it hits on my old time favorite golf..........I tend to disagree a little bit. Not entirely, but a tiny bit. It's only with the small % of legacy player invites I have an issue.

With the previous win invite to the Masters thing, you often wind up with quite a few legacy players who won't sniff contention and often don't make the cut. I think the Masters invite should (to the anger of many folks) fix the uncompetitive legacy player thing. But fans loved seeing Arnie.

I grew up playing and most everybody I knew then would disagree with me, but golf should reign in the legacy invites just a bit. Good for ratings, but there's players that could fill those spots that would smoke those old dudes.

This is classic ST thread of "solution looking for a problem"

With your logic kids would still play with wooden toys. Rigid, inflexible, stubborn,, and unevolving thinking is not a good look.

a) Fuckin haoles
b) Locals only

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Oh come on!! We all know and even you yourself above said "the Open" doesn't ever take place at Pinehurst or anywhere in the US!!

Why should Ironman, which owns the rights to the World Ironman Championship and defeated ITU in court over the issue, give up the commercial benefit to any other organizer? What would they get out of it? It would be financial malfeasance on their part to make any such agreement. It's OK to want a unified championship, but its fantasy to believe it will happen.

Actually I believe the Master's has the highest barrier of entry for the top 100 players in the world. Because it's the smallest field compared to the others and because it gives auto bids to past former champions and then auto bids for top 12 or 15 from previous year, and certain amateurs and certain amateurs of world regions, only top 50 ranking is guranteed.

Of course that means the "best of the best" are in the field, but it's the highest entry of the majors.

It's also the smallest field among the majors at roughly 100 players total (+ / - some who decline and/or they don't "replace" people who decline)

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Isn't establishing a unified championship something that the PTO could do?

I dont mind the "legacy" players playing, just like I wouldn't mind if Kona said "all past winners always welcome". Simply cut 12 spots from the charity slots at Kona and you wouldn't be messing with the pro numbers at Kona (current pro Kona winners would have to still qualify the same as other current pro's, but the "old timers" would be welcome etc)

Likewise, Augusta National could keep the legacy players and still fill up their regular quota *if* they wanted too. As I previously said, Master's has such a small field that they *could* add more players that would bring it on par with quoatas from all other tourneys.

I dont see a big deal if Arnie playing means #58 ranked golfer doesnt make the Master's. Arnie playing takes that guys spot not a top ranked "best of best" spot.


(yes I know you could argue #58 ranked "deserves" to be there, but where's the line you draw....Master's draws it at #50)

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

How? They lost their bid to buy Ironman and the latter would simply ignore them. And wasn't there widespread agreement on this forum that the PTO influence will be short-lived as they are not a viable on-going business model?

In my mind the same way they built up Daytona. Throw a lot of money at an event and suddenly you get athletes to race. Now the question may be, how/where do they get the money to repeat Daytona, etc. Which is a very valid point.

But that would be how it works, and if they get any momentum building with their product it *could* happen. Or shall I say they imo are doing everything they can to market their product about as well as can be marketed....It's now going to be up to the consumers to see if it's truly a viable product/option to build on. (I'm talking about Daytona + Miami races tv product)

The numbers probaly won't work, but you have to give them credit for what they are attempting to do. They are putting out a pretty damn solid professional platform to the media. It's up to the consumers to determine if it's worth investing in further. IE more consumer views = more marketing / advertising opportunities....that's what allows sports leagues to flourish financially....Advertising revenue and people paying to broadcast your sport...that comes from consumer eyeballs plain and simple.

Probaly all we can really ask for honestly.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I've long stated that the measure of a "World Championship" lies in the quality and depth of the athletes it attracts. By that measure, Challenge Daytona 2020 was a success. However, in my mind, Daytona does not provide any sort of blueprint for a unified championship. It did not carry any official world championship title (it was just the PTO Championship) and benefited from a lack of alternative venues in 2020 including "The Championship" that Challenge holds regularly in Slovakia. Further, PTOs ability to throw money at a championship is entirely predicated on the one-time capital infusion they received. There is no indication that they can keep that going very long unless they find new wealthy benefactors who love to piss away their money with no return. To the contrary, if the PTO has any long term success at all, then they will simply have created yet another "Championship" in a clogged field of championships.

Yet the people who win at Kona are also winning at other venues. Well rounded athletes win everywhere.

There is no indication that they can keep that going very long unless they find new wealthy benefactors who love to piss away their money with no return.

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I would disagree. It's not up to a billioniare (I mean you need initial investment money I agree with), I already told you how the success or failure of a sport is going to be.

IE it's up to the general public to accept and want this niche sport in front of them. They are putting their product out there, that's all you can ask for. If the sport doesnt pick up traction, it doesnt work.

Cool, but they are doing their damdest to put a great pro product in front of the masses.....you can't really ask for anything else.


ETA: I would also disagree with your sentiment that they are looking for investors to then "pissing away their money with no return".....what they are doing from a professional and marketing / production standpoint is putting their best product forward. That's not "pissing away money", they are making VERY SOUND decisions, this isn't the Island House Triathlon product. It may not work but to suggest they want people to just throw money at them with no return imo is a very poor characterization of this current platform.


ETA #2- Mind you it probaly won't work. Triathlon is a boring ass sport, it's hard as fuck to package an live race in our current format. How many passes happened in this event. So the general masses will probaly give this a very hard pass. But that doesnt mean they pissed away the money. They are doing a very good job of doing everything they can to be successful, but sometimes your product doesnt work. No harm there. But this group imo isn't taking money and just pissing it away, they are doing very sound business decisions. It just may not work, and hey that's ok.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

We will agree to disagree. You are slightly off-topic in my mind. My first post on this was that it is fantasy to think there will be a unified ultra distance world championship. I stand by that no matter what the PTO is doing.

Yes I'm 2 steps ahead of your thoughts. I'm showing you how the PTO can make an unified product with the current steps they are currrently taking. I'm suggesting they've already started that process and that the ultimate success will be up to the general public. So that if it doens't get much traction, then no we won't get an "unified" title.

But I believe you asked how, and I'm showing you the how to your question. you just failed to recognize my answer (no my answer isn't off topic, my answer is the whole solution to a "unified" championship).

Like if their product takes off an unified title will easily be in the works because they'll have the financial incentive for pros to make it work. That's it. ETA: And if their tv product doesn't take off then you have your answer. Like they are doing everything they can to create a finacial viable professional triathlon organization. It simply may not work and that's fine too. But they are doing a very good job of putting their best foot forward with it. It just likely may not work, and that's cool too. But you made a comment about their biz model and imo they are doing a very good sound business model. It may not work and if that's your only opinion, fine, but saying they don't have a sound biz model with what they are CURRENTLY implementing, makes very little sense. You seem to think it's a bad idea cus it's going to fail. I'm suggesting that just because it may fail doesnt mean you can't give them props for actual doing a sound biz plan/process...which is what they are currently doing.

ETA #2- There's also nothing to disagree with. Financial viable sports aren't run by single business billionaires throwing money into said sport (that's how they get started obviously). They are the sports that gain traction by being a product that people buy into and want in front of them and that creates ad revenue, that creates people PAYING you to broadcast your sport.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Daytona is a bad example. In 2005 NASCAR changed the rules to allow the race to go on longer than 500 miles as to give the fans a chance to see the race end under green. 10 times since then the race has ran longer and as long as 522.5 miles in 2020. 'Real' race fans hate it. Entertainment sports fans don't give a shit about it. And I have no idea who is right or who matters more or if it even matters. Yes, I laugh at NASCAR because they bastardized what racing is to get more eyeballs and I definitely watch WAY less with these wonky rules. With that said, y'all should watch indycar instead anyway.

Right now you have Ironman, ITU, Challenge (PTO), and Superleague. Superleague is a pro only field with no AG. I love it, but it's not comparable with the others. ITU doesn't really have an AG series that would stack up with IM or Challenge.

Challenge is IM's biggest competitor and its not close. The AG race circuit for IM along with amateur rankings and race atmosphere aren't even comparable. I think IM relates to us AGers because it actually caters to us (except recent times with Covid19).

Until someone can do something similar then IM will continue to draw the most interest because AGers have a personal stake in the races more so than any other company.