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Re: Forget Kona - We need a rotating annual championship [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck wrote:
The IM brand still has a lot of value, but they had better get their three-year strategic plan in order...


PTO/Challenge really through down the gauntlet yesterday!

I agree - the IM brand still has the history, the momentum, and that iconic status (40 years of building and great stewardship will do that) - but something shifted in a HUGE way yesterday, if you know what goes on behind the scenes in this sport!

The next few years should be really interesting to see what happens.

Frankly, I don't expect anything different. Challenge came up with winning coverage of the Pro race that satisfied the ST crowd; the same group that in forum after forum have pretty much stated that Pros don't matter when it comes to the business of triathlon. I don't pretend to know what goes on behind the scenes, but I didn't see anything that is going to shift the preference of everyday athletes that foot the bill for this sport away from Ironman. In local social media today, there was talk about how it was fun to watch the pros in person after racing, but also a lot of talk about how confusing the track laps were and how they failed to correct the results in some cases for those who inadvertently cut the course. What exactly shifted in the AG race that is going to alter the balance of power (aka, AG registrations) from Ironman to Challenge?
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Re: Forget Kona - We need a rotating annual championship [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]
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ThailandUltras wrote:
LifeTri wrote:

My wife was saying that she wished there were some commercial breaks so she could get up and go to the bathroom without fear of missing any of the action. They need to put in some sort of commercials for these events. It gives the commentators time to regroup as well.

..
Commercial breaks during a live to air endurance race?
.

I have no idea why this was a suggestion. When the Olympic coverage is on and they cut coverage during the 10k its extremely frustrating. Having special athlete specific promos would be pretty cool even if it was just taking those individual unbreakable promos and airing them during sections of the race while keeping the stream in the corner and not airing them before the race
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Re: Forget Kona - We need a rotating annual championship [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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HuffNPuff wrote:
markvoss wrote:
Response wasn’t aimed at the Hawaii comments but rather at everyone else’s previous references to the mystique of Ironman being linked specifically to Kona. It’s like a religion. And Mark Allen is its Profi—err, Prophet.

The religion analogy is too strong. Certainly the tradition, heat, humidity, and wind at Kona have given it near-legendary status. As to Mark Allen being its prophet - that is completely oversold. Some "man on the street" interview at any U.S. Ironman would quickly dispel you of that notion. You would encounter athlete after athlete who could tell you all about Kona but wouldn't have any idea who Mark Allen is. Do the same set of interviews at your local sprint tri and it would be even worse.

The Mark Allen vs Dave Scott has been milked for all its worth. Anyone else get sick of this being gone over ad nauseum every SINGLE year?
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Re: Forget Kona - We need a rotating annual championship [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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HuffNPuff wrote:
synthetic wrote:
jaretj wrote:
You've been around long enough to have seen this question a few times.

It all comes down to everyone wants to do ironman and the the Champs will always be in Hawaii cuz that's the birthplace.


falsity falseness. san diego is the birth place :)


and this year the championship did rotate from Kona. It was daytona.

That's like saying the Olympic Marathon championship was replaced by the 10,000 meter run at the Steve Prefontaine Classic. You could make a case that for 2020 that the IM70.3 WC in New Zealand was replaced by Challenge Daytona even though the latter was still shorter than the 70.3 distance. But no way Challenge Daytona replaced Kona no matter how much you hate Ironman and wish that were true.

It replaced kona as tri championship this year, as it was the only longer than Olympic distance race this year with so many top professionals fighting for the biggest pool of prize money this year. You even had epic blow ups like brownlee for the kona like drama
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Re: Forget Kona - We need a rotating annual championship [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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Only in your mind. But hey, let's run with that. Iden is 2020 World Triathlon Champion, Olympic Champion, Ironman Champion, 70.3 and Middle Distance Champion. Let it be so recorded in the Guinness Book of World Records!!! (PINK)
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Re: Forget Kona - We need a rotating annual championship [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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synthetic wrote:
HuffNPuff wrote:
synthetic wrote:
jaretj wrote:
You've been around long enough to have seen this question a few times.

It all comes down to everyone wants to do ironman and the the Champs will always be in Hawaii cuz that's the birthplace.


falsity falseness. san diego is the birth place :)


and this year the championship did rotate from Kona. It was daytona.


That's like saying the Olympic Marathon championship was replaced by the 10,000 meter run at the Steve Prefontaine Classic. You could make a case that for 2020 that the IM70.3 WC in New Zealand was replaced by Challenge Daytona even though the latter was still shorter than the 70.3 distance. But no way Challenge Daytona replaced Kona no matter how much you hate Ironman and wish that were true.


It replaced kona as tri championship this year, as it was the only longer than Olympic distance race this year with so many top professionals fighting for the biggest pool of prize money this year. You even had epic blow ups like brownlee for the kona like drama

Brownlee didn't blow up.

Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.
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Re: Forget Kona - We need a rotating annual championship [kny] [ In reply to ]
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How about this. There is always a race in Kona every year, but it isn't always the championships? The championships rotate between so many other well established IM races? So Kona is still there every year.
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Re: Forget Kona - We need a rotating annual championship [japarker24] [ In reply to ]
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japarker24 wrote:
synthetic wrote:
HuffNPuff wrote:
synthetic wrote:
jaretj wrote:
You've been around long enough to have seen this question a few times.

It all comes down to everyone wants to do ironman and the the Champs will always be in Hawaii cuz that's the birthplace.


falsity falseness. san diego is the birth place :)


and this year the championship did rotate from Kona. It was daytona.


That's like saying the Olympic Marathon championship was replaced by the 10,000 meter run at the Steve Prefontaine Classic. You could make a case that for 2020 that the IM70.3 WC in New Zealand was replaced by Challenge Daytona even though the latter was still shorter than the 70.3 distance. But no way Challenge Daytona replaced Kona no matter how much you hate Ironman and wish that were true.


It replaced kona as tri championship this year, as it was the only longer than Olympic distance race this year with so many top professionals fighting for the biggest pool of prize money this year. You even had epic blow ups like brownlee for the kona like drama


Brownlee didn't blow up.


He was limping on the run after trying to bank time for his finish chute penalty... injury is blowing up too
Last edited by: synthetic: Dec 7, 20 13:11
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Re: Forget Kona - We need a rotating annual championship [japarker24] [ In reply to ]
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japarker24 wrote:
Brownlee didn't blow up.

Blow up is a relatively generic description, but it's relatively accurate. In the middle of a race he pulled a calf muscle and bowed out.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Forget Kona - We need a rotating annual championship [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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synthetic wrote:

... injury is blowing up too

I disagree.

Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.
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Re: Forget Kona - We need a rotating annual championship [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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Blow up is a relatively generic description, but it's relatively accurate. In the middle of a race he pulled a calf muscle and bowed out.


Pulled calf? Cramp? Who knows. He could not finish the run!


This was certainly an unfortunate, but also interesting outcome.

I really don't think the full contingent of the contenders really knew how this was going to go, until they really got into this. The bike, given the nature of it seemed relatively benign - a flat 20 lap 80km course.

But as I have said before, this probably required some VERY specific prep. This bike leg was unlike ANY other race they have probably done in their life - One gear. One RPM. One position. No coasting. No stopping pedaling. All at a huge power output! It's clear that, the bike did some damage! It really did influence the run, and who could run. On paper, if they are close to the front of the race at the end of the bike - It's Ali Brownlee's race to win, Or Gomez or Luis, or Schomen . . etc . . They will just run away with it, right?? Note this is not about silly LC vs SC argument that has been going on - it's about who THIS kind of race favored. And I think we know now this favored a particular kind of athlete, who had prepared specifically for it!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Forget Kona - We need a rotating annual championship [kny] [ In reply to ]
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Kona isn't what it used to be. Locals are not very supportive of the race and course is not suited for a large number of athletes since it is way too flat to space people out.
I love participating in world championships but after 10 times Kona I wouldn't mind another venue at all :-)
I think Kona legacy is only important for people that have not been there. Once you've done it a couple of times, it is just a race like any other. Or should I say any other race beats Kona?
Sam
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Re: Forget Kona - We need a rotating annual championship [sgy] [ In reply to ]
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sgy wrote:
Kona isn't what it used to be. Locals are not very supportive of the race and course is not suited for a large number of athletes since it is way too flat to space people out.
I love participating in world championships but after 10 times Kona I wouldn't mind another venue at all :-)
I think Kona legacy is only important for people that have not been there. Once you've done it a couple of times, it is just a race like any other. Or should I say any other race beats Kona?
Sam

The nice thing is, no one will force you to go back. Nor will anyone miss you (no offense - won't miss you or anyone else).

Because Kona, like all great events, is bigger than any one person.
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Re: Forget Kona - We need a rotating annual championship [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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TheStroBro wrote:
japarker24 wrote:

Brownlee didn't blow up.


Blow up is a relatively generic description, but it's relatively accurate. In the middle of a race he pulled a calf muscle and bowed out.

I don't think injury = blow up

Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.
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Re: Forget Kona - We need a rotating annual championship [kny] [ In reply to ]
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"Forget Kona"

We will. Super League is so much more enjoyable to watch. In addition, Ironman Corp. has certainly shot themselves in the foot with their bread and butter racers. Personally, I was treated so much better by my local canceled races than I was with Ironman Corp. Going forward I will be supporting local races only.


When Ironman goes bankrupt who will claim the right to hold the championship?
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Re: Forget Kona - We need a rotating annual championship [KaliTom] [ In reply to ]
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KaliTom wrote:
"Forget Kona"

We will. Super League is so much more enjoyable to watch. In addition, Ironman Corp. has certainly shot themselves in the foot with their bread and butter racers. Personally, I was treated so much better by my local canceled races than I was with Ironman Corp. Going forward I will be supporting local races only.


When Ironman goes bankrupt who will claim the right to hold the championship?


As I said to Mr. Gyde a couple posts back, I think you will find the events will roll on without you. As this is what happens in reality.

But best of luck to you at your local races.
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Re: Forget Kona - We need a rotating annual championship [KaliTom] [ In reply to ]
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KaliTom wrote:
"Forget Kona"

We will. Super League is so much more enjoyable to watch. In addition, Ironman Corp. has certainly shot themselves in the foot with their bread and butter racers. Personally, I was treated so much better by my local canceled races than I was with Ironman Corp. Going forward I will be supporting local races only.


When Ironman goes bankrupt who will claim the right to hold the championship?

Not sure how you define that. But most local races to me did not give money back, they did automatic deferrals and some gave credit for another race. If you're talking about communication? Yes, Ironman could have been a better communicator, but most independent race promoters gave very few refunds, they were just better at stating why.

If anyone thinks Challenge is going to unseat Ironman anywhere, I'm afraid you're mistaken. Challenge hasn't proven to anyone that they can expand well entrench themselves into the North American market. Ironman is embedded in North America with a massive race calendar that gives the consumer a wide variety of environments to choose from. Sure, I'll definitely race a little bit more locally, but there's only two other longer distance race in AZ right now. So if you wanted to do Independent promoter only, I suppose you can but the vibe is way different at those races.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Forget Kona - We need a rotating annual championship [Dan Funk] [ In reply to ]
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Dan Funk wrote:
KaliTom wrote:
"Forget Kona"

We will. Super League is so much more enjoyable to watch. In addition, Ironman Corp. has certainly shot themselves in the foot with their bread and butter racers. Personally, I was treated so much better by my local canceled races than I was with Ironman Corp. Going forward I will be supporting local races only.


When Ironman goes bankrupt who will claim the right to hold the championship?



As I said to Mr. Gyde a couple posts back, I think you will find the events will roll on without you. As this is what happens in reality.

But best of luck to you at your local races.

this is true, many races canceled by covid this year, were still put on in some way or another. I doubt anything at kona since their strict lockdown access to the island, but everywhere else...
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Re: Forget Kona - We need a rotating annual championship [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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Everything evolves. track & field, swimming and triathlon are adding mix team relays in the Olympics. Triathlon and events that bring the best athletes will also evolve and we may have saw the start of something this past weekend.

USAT Level II- Ironman U Certified Coach
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Re: Forget Kona - We need a rotating annual championship [Dan Funk] [ In reply to ]
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Dan Funk wrote:
sgy wrote:
Kona isn't what it used to be. Locals are not very supportive of the race and course is not suited for a large number of athletes since it is way too flat to space people out.
I love participating in world championships but after 10 times Kona I wouldn't mind another venue at all :-)
I think Kona legacy is only important for people that have not been there. Once you've done it a couple of times, it is just a race like any other. Or should I say any other race beats Kona?
Sam

The nice thing is, no one will force you to go back. Nor will anyone miss you (no offense - won't miss you or anyone else).

Because Kona, like all great events, is bigger than any one person.

Totally agree. Kona might be bigger than any person but if the experience is not what people expect it to be, it will shrink.
Of course nobody will miss anyone not attending but that is not the point.
The point is having a WC with a venue that fully supports the event and that support is going away in Kona.
I am really curious to see the attitude this year in Kona towards all foreign athletes if the event takes place. Most Hawaiians think they are way better off without the event. After all surfing is still bigger than triathlon there.

Sam
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Re: Forget Kona - We need a rotating annual championship [Dilbert] [ In reply to ]
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Im for a rotation but not this variety of they have with 70.3 worlds location.

Its simple
Kona- the iconic
Nice France - The former unofficial worlds with incredible history
Cairns Australia- cairns is incredible and has huge amounts of accomodation and a world champion standard course that has it all. Especially if they ran it like the early years with the first 21 km through cane fields, very much like the Queen K and Energy Lab heat and mind destroying experience.

It adds a new excitement eg what pro will be the first to win at all 3 locations and also France and Aus may be a little easier to qualify for, this gives the chance for different people to go to a worlds, then the kona year would be incredibly hard to qualify for maintaining its status and prestige.
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Re: Forget Kona - We need a rotating annual championship [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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As a total outsider to this debate...........they should go the golf route.

You have the Masters that doesn't rotate and is more "invite" than it is qualifier..........then you have the US Open which is wide "open" and rotates venue every year.



Yes - things have changed a bit, but I was told by a key IRONMAN insider several years ago, that comparisons to "The Masters" in Golf are a good one. The Augusta National Club makes up most of the rules for qualification for The Masters. It is one of the most prestigious Gold Tournaments in he world, with a storied and legendary past, but it often is NOT a showdown of ALL of the very best Golfers in the world. And - because it's just one course - you need to be able to do well on that kind and type of course - all sound familiar??

I know there are those who will call me out for outright blasphemy and sacrilege for what I'm about to say, but I have been an open advocate for IRONMAN, knowing full well this is THEIR decision, and THEIR'S alone, should move the full IRONMAN world championship around the world to different IM race race venues. I know, I know Kona has all the history and the mystique - I get that! But this could be truly win/win.

The Kona course itself is VERY selective - that's OK, but you have to go well on that kind of course, and go well in the high heat and humidity. If you took the top 20 places from a typical Kona IMWC year, and put those same athletes on a slightly different course topographically - perhaps a few more challenging climbs on the bike and in temperate much cooler conditions - how different would that Top-20 Finish order be? My guess is . . . a lot different!

The win/win comes as follows: Rotate the IMWC around and then every 4 - 5 years have it come back to Kona - it's ancestral home. In those years that the IMWC is NOT being raced in Kona and at other venues around the world, IM can have an open IM race there on the legendary IM Kona Race Course, that I'm guessing average AG Triathletes would be willing to pay some good extra$$ to do! Extra revenue can go to profit or to charity.

You are welcome! :-)


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Forget Kona - We need a rotating annual championship [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck wrote:
As a total outsider to this debate...........they should go the golf route.

You have the Masters that doesn't rotate and is more "invite" than it is qualifier..........then you have the US Open which is wide "open" and rotates venue every year.



Yes - things have changed a bit, but I was told by a key IRONMAN insider several years ago, that comparisons to "The Masters" in Golf are a good one. The Augusta National Club makes up most of the rules for qualification for The Masters. It is one of the most prestigious Gold Tournaments in he world, with a storied and legendary past, but it often is NOT a showdown of ALL of the very best Golfers in the world. And - because it's just one course - you need to be able to do well on that kind and type of course - all sound familiar??

I know there are those who will call me out for outright blasphemy and sacrilege for what I'm about to say, but I have been an open advocate for IRONMAN, knowing full well this is THEIR decision, and THEIR'S alone, should move the full IRONMAN world championship around the world to different IM race race venues. I know, I know Kona has all the history and the mystique - I get that! But this could be truly win/win.

The Kona course itself is VERY selective - that's OK, but you have to go well on that kind of course, and go well in the high heat and humidity. If you took the top 20 places from a typical Kona IMWC year, and put those same athletes on a slightly different course topographically - perhaps a few more challenging climbs on the bike and in temperate much cooler conditions - how different would that Top-20 Finish order be? My guess is . . . a lot different!

The win/win comes as follows: Rotate the IMWC around and then every 4 - 5 years have it come back to Kona - it's ancestral home. In those years that the IMWC is NOT being raced in Kona and at other venues around the world, IM can have an open IM race there on the legendary IM Kona Race Course, that I'm guessing average AG Triathletes would be willing to pay some good extra$$ to do! Extra revenue can go to profit or to charity.

You are welcome! :-)

Thanks for quoting me on that one.

As the poster of that, I used to compete at a high level in junior golf travelling about. Got my rear end kicked by Webb Simpson once. To us, there were three EQUAL prestigious tournaments each year. Masters, US Open, The Open (UK). We viewed the PGA championship as more "meh". Either way, as a kid, you'd dream of winning any of those three. Those were the three events where you'd pretend with your buds you were putting for the win on the 72nd hole.

Also, golf has the concept of world rankings and a year end winner these days where the majors play a big roll.

To further the analogy, you could have the concept in triathlon of there being two "majors". Kona and other. Both equal, but the Kona one catering more to invite only and to "pro". Like the Masters. The other would also be pros, but would be wide "open".

In golf anyone can start the qualifying process for the US Open that carries better than a 1.4 handicap and goes through qualifying. There aren't a lot of exempt players for the US Open. Pros have to "qualify". Closest I ever got my legit handicap without the club pro over-riding to send folks to some stinky qualifier was a 4.

As a kid part of the excitement was seeing what course in the country would get the Open. Unless you were rich, it wouldn't be your course. But, it could be in your backyard.

I grew up playing and competing all the Pinehurst courses. Our high school districted to play those schools for a year or two. So it was always a "religious" event when the Open came to town.

I think something like Ironman would do well to spread the love away from Kona, somehow.

Even as a person who does bikes/du and not tri, if it were within a decent distance I'd travel to go cheer somebody on. Kona just makes that logistically ridiculous.

I loved golf as a kid. We went to the Senior US Open in Pinehurst and all the regular US Opens held there among a few others. I travelled to play up to 6 hours away. If golf were like triathlon, I never would have participated in any manner to watch or visit the "championship" with it being as far off as Kona.

The mystique and nostalgia are massive there, but man that's a huge exclusionary thing for people. Ain't no loading up the family car or RV for that.
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Re: Forget Kona - We need a rotating annual championship [kny] [ In reply to ]
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Find another sport Ironman world championship will always be in Kona
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Re: Forget Kona - We need a rotating annual championship [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck wrote:


Yes - things have changed a bit, but I was told by a key IRONMAN insider several years ago, that comparisons to "The Masters" in Golf are a good one. The Augusta National Club makes up most of the rules for qualification for The Masters. It is one of the most prestigious Gold Tournaments in he world, with a storied and legendary past, but it often is NOT a showdown of ALL of the very best Golfers in the world. And - because it's just one course - you need to be able to do well on that kind and type of course - all sound familiar??

Huh? The Masters is most definitely a showdown of the VERY BEST, golfers in the World. Yes it's an invitational, but if you're in the top 100 you've received your invite, if you choose not to attend that is on you.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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