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Descending skills / how to gain confidence?
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Adult onset cyclist here.
My bike handling skills (esp descending and managing rough roads) are lagging my cyclr fitness by a healthy margin. Furthermore, My confidence has taken very big step backs after my first and second bike accident (second one involving several nights in the ICU).

For those of you that had relatively modest bike handling skills and/or bike confidence, how did you go about improving? What worked? What didn't ?

Thanks
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Re: Descending skills / how to gain confidence? [ejd_mil] [ In reply to ]
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ejd_mil wrote:
Adult onset cyclist here.
My bike handling skills (esp descending and managing rough roads) are lagging my cyclr fitness by a healthy margin. Furthermore, My confidence has taken very big step backs after my first and second bike accident (second one involving several nights in the ICU).

For those of you that had relatively modest bike handling skills and/or bike confidence, how did you go about improving? What worked? What didn't ?

Thanks

After two bike accidents why do you want to be able to descend faster? Several nights in the ICU? I descend slowly and am okay being mocked for it.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

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Re: Descending skills / how to gain confidence? [ejd_mil] [ In reply to ]
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I won't comment on the confidence aspect, but here are some other suggestions of things to work on
  • Gain actual technical understanding of how the bike handles. Many people do not have this. This can come from coaching and/or reading. I highly recommend the book A Gear Higher
  • Practice on basics in controlled situations. In my second year racing we did cornering drills in parking lots
  • Practice around the edges of comfort - within your comfort zone to just a little beyond it. Don't spend time far beyond your comfort zone.
  • Recognize that in most competitive situations, exiting a corner fast is more important than entering it fast (the exception is in some moments in bike racing, when you are trying to hold position and get to a corner before the next person).
  • Practice in situations where falling is less of a big deal - on dirt and grass.
  • Practice in related sports falling is less of a big deal - on skis or skates.
You may be some ideas from my article on not crashing in group rides
https://medium.com/...ying-up-607a3bf88de4



http://www.jt10000.com/
Last edited by: jt10000: Nov 15, 20 2:48
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Re: Descending skills / how to gain confidence? [ejd_mil] [ In reply to ]
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I'm a Cat B rider based on fitness, have been riding bikes on and off road for 40 of my 45 years on this planet, and am renowned for being quicker up any form of gradient then down on tarmac and mud. As a kid I was always riding BMX, then taking my road bike on what would now be classed as gravel rides (wish I'd thought to patent it)

I ride regularly with road groups, and am more than happy to sit on the back on downhills until they then drop me and I'll TT back onto the group at the bottom of the hill. I don't do team races as I don't want the pressure to stay with groups on the descent.

In part I put it down to my odd build - 6'4" but all legs and no spine means I've a high centre of gravity. But honestly I'm just a natural pussy. As per the post above, I'm fairly happy not falling off and injuring myself. I've spent enough time going into the hospital to visit riding mates that have crashed at 70+kph to know it's not pretty. I've also been in there enough myself from ankle injuries when running and know the frustration with not being able to exercise for several years post surgeries.
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Re: Descending skills / how to gain confidence? [ejd_mil] [ In reply to ]
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Has anybody had a look at how your bike is set up?
Bad weight distribution combined with poor technique are a recipe for disaster
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Re: Descending skills / how to gain confidence? [philg] [ In reply to ]
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philg wrote:
Has anybody had a look at how your bike is set up?
Bad weight distribution combined with poor technique are a recipe for disaster

The problem is of course that most triathletes have a tt-bike with an aerodynamic setup which is not particularly suitable for descending. Changing that to a "normal" racing bike setup will make you slower on the flat parts which you do not want.

First of all, I recommend to take a minimum of risk, which means a time loss at descents compared with the good descenders (or compared with those willing to take higher risks).

You become better when you practice, and indeed you should practice with the setup you race with, so do descents with your tt-bike.

In Lanzarote there is a spooky descent at the end of the course which I noticed a couple of days before the race. I discussed that with a friend and he advised to wear bikegloves. I never use bikegloves in triathlons but I bought a pair and I felt a lot more confident on that last descent wearing them. The problem of tt-bikes is to hold the basebar especially when you have sweaty hands.
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Re: Descending skills / how to gain confidence? [ejd_mil] [ In reply to ]
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Follow somebody with more skills than you. Watch their line choice, how they set up for corners, when and how they brake, etc.

Essentially, you want to start far outside (for a left hand turn you want to be on the far right side of the road). Do your braking in a straight line before you start to turn in. Your outside foot should be down with a lot of your body weight pushing down through the pedal. You want your weight to be low. Don’t have too much weight in the front or back of the bike (keep it centered). Arms slightly bent (no locked elbows). In the middle of the turn (the apex) you should be on the inside of the corner, and then by the end of the corner when you are starting to go straight again you should be back on the outside line of the turn. Make your arc as smooth as possible.

Don’t ride your brakes through the turn. Don’t start the turn from the inside.

A few years ago I remember seeing an article about a pro triathlete (I think it was Gwen) who improved her skills by riding on the back of a motorcycle of a very talented Red Bull rider. She learned what it felt like to corner at high speed, the lines to take, when to brake, how to lean, etc.

You could also cross train on a mountain bike or take up cyclocross.


Edit: here is the article about Gwen: https://www.redbull.com/...jorgensen-descending
Last edited by: rob_bell: Nov 15, 20 4:51
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Re: Descending skills / how to gain confidence? [rob_bell] [ In reply to ]
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TITS
(Time in the saddle.)
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Re: Descending skills / how to gain confidence? [ejd_mil] [ In reply to ]
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How are you judging your poor descending skills?

If it's because strong other riders can out-descend you,it may be more a matter of how good they are rather than how poor you are.

If however, you are lagging compared to recreational cyclists, then you probably just have to practice it more and it should come fast.
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Re: Descending skills / how to gain confidence? [ejd_mil] [ In reply to ]
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Progressively:
Cyclocross events.
MTBiking.
Then transfer skills to road.

Louis :-)
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Re: Descending skills / how to gain confidence? [rob_bell] [ In reply to ]
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X2 - all the points I was going to make and more!

" I take my gear out of my car and put my bike together. Tourists and locals are watching from sidewalk cafes. Non-racers. The emptiness of of their lives shocks me. "
(opening lines from Tim Krabbe's The Rider , 1978
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Re: Descending skills / how to gain confidence? [TriDevilDog] [ In reply to ]
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If you can go mountain biking that will help loads. You get used to having to shift weight around, how to relax on decent, how to read what's in front and the state of the surface better, and how to not grab the brakes when something gets slithery.

Within my mountain biking friends I'm one of the slower decenders (we span a range of ages from mid 30s to early 60s and I'm in the middle so not age related). But with my regular road riding buddies and folks from the tri club I drop virtually everyone and without going out of my comfort zone or taking silly risks. Because none are mountain bikes.

If you do get to mountain bike try getting some lightweight knee pads (many are comfy all day these days) and use gloves. If (when) you fall its usually softer and slower than the road bike too. But the knee pads give a bit of insurance.


And on the road. Whatever it is DON'T grab the front brake (or back for that matter) part way around a corner. It 'uses up' some of the available tyre-road adhesion and leaves less for cornering - so you'll slide more easily than if off the brakes (same for a car too).

Best of luck.
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Re: Descending skills / how to gain confidence? [ejd_mil] [ In reply to ]
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I practice my descending on Zwift. I find I've gotten really fast on the cycling simulator and can do most of the descents there over 45mph. Can't wait to see the improvements during my next race.
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Re: Descending skills / how to gain confidence? [BobAjobb] [ In reply to ]
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BobAjobb wrote:
If you can go mountain biking that will help loads. You get used to having to shift weight around, how to relax on decent, how to read what's in front and the state of the surface better, and how to not grab the brakes when something gets slithery.
This is what I was going to post. The best bike handlers and descenders in the pro road ranks generally have one thing in common: a background in mountain biking or cross.

Learning how to mountain bike has really helped my bike handling skills on the road. I started mountain biking about four years ago and it's now very noticeable to me how much better and more confident a bike handler I am. Learning how to lean the bike but keep your body upright, learning how to weight the bars properly (this was counter-intuitive for me), learning how to "body English" your way through a turn, learning how to brake properly before a corner and accelerate through it, learning how to keep your center of gravity both low and equally between the wheels, learning how to detect the limits of traction and deal with a skid etc: all skills that translate from mountain biking to the road. In particular, I've found a hardtail will force you to really learn these lessons. If you want to become a better road cyclist, buy a hardtail and hit the trails.

Note: I don't race cross, but I'll bet cross has a similar impact.
Last edited by: hiro11: Nov 15, 20 8:05
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Re: Descending skills / how to gain confidence? [hiro11] [ In reply to ]
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hiro11 wrote:
BobAjobb wrote:
If you can go mountain biking that will help loads. You get used to having to shift weight around, how to relax on decent, how to read what's in front and the state of the surface better, and how to not grab the brakes when something gets slithery.
This is what I was going to post. The best bike handlers and descenders in the pro road ranks generally have one thing in common: a background in mountain biking or cross.

Learning how to mountain bike has really helped my bike handling skills on the road. I started mountain biking about four years ago and it's now very noticeable to me how much better and more confident a bike handler I am. Learning how to lean the bike but keep your body upright, learning how to weight the bars properly (this was counter-intuitive for me), learning how to "body English" your way through a turn, learning how to brake properly before a corner and accelerate through it, learning how to keep your center of gravity both low and equally between the wheels, learning how to detect the limits of traction and deal with a skid etc: all skills that translate from mountain biking to the road. In particular, I've found a hardtail will force you to really learn these lessons. If you want to become a better road cyclist, buy a hardtail and hit the trails.

Note: I don't race cross, but I'll bet cross has a similar impact.

I don’t hear roadies talking about it, but “bike body separation” is a skill that is preached in MTB. Since taking that to the road, I have way more confidence while cornering and do not feel like the bike is going to slide out from under me.

The above poster describes this well - lean the bike but keep yourself more vertical and your weight on top of the bike.
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Re: Descending skills / how to gain confidence? [ejd_mil] [ In reply to ]
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Look where you want to go and not where you are.
On curves, adjust your speed before you enter the curve and accelerate out of the curve (start mild acceleration a little over half wat through curve. )
Relax and go at the speed you feel comfortable and gradually increase speed
Practice on a road you know and not a new road
Enjoy your rides and hopefully no more crashes.
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Re: Descending skills / how to gain confidence? [ejd_mil] [ In reply to ]
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Before l offer suggestions, what were/was the causes and circumstances of your 2 bike accidents?

Then, what kind of bike are you using, and what kind of handlebar set up are you using exactly while descending?

Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
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Re: Descending skills / how to gain confidence? [Pro_Sandbagger] [ In reply to ]
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Pro_Sandbagger wrote:
I practice my descending on Zwift. I find I've gotten really fast on the cycling simulator and can do most of the descents there over 45mph. Can't wait to see the improvements during my next race.

Kudos...one of the funniest things I've read on ST in a long time...
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Re: Descending skills / how to gain confidence? [ejd_mil] [ In reply to ]
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ejd_mil wrote:
Adult onset cyclist here.
My bike handling skills (esp descending and managing rough roads) are lagging my cyclr fitness by a healthy margin. Furthermore, My confidence has taken very big step backs after my first and second bike accident (second one involving several nights in the ICU).

For those of you that had relatively modest bike handling skills and/or bike confidence, how did you go about improving? What worked? What didn't ?

Thanks

So, assuming we are talking about non-draft permitted tri's, you might not gain as much time by descending fast as you might think. The difference between going a mile @ 40 mph v. 35 mph is only 13 seconds. So if your comfort zone max on a descent is 35, you will incur a lot of risk to go 40 with not very much reward -- especially if you have to pedal hard to maintain 40 on the descent but can recover a bit at 35.

A lot of descending skills is about speed going into the turn and line going into and through the turn (as others have pointed out). To me it's a matter of feel. Your brain has to have seen a bunch of turns and developed a sense of correct speed and correct line. So I believe the best thing you can do is ride a lot within your comfort zone and you will probably find that your comfort zone will grow faster over time. Riding with skilled riders might help you see the lines, but be aware that it is an additional skill to follow riders down hill -- there is a crack the whip effect and the tail rider may end up riding faster at points along the turn than the lead rider was going.

You also asked about rough roads. The feel for this can take even longer because there are so many variations on what makes a road rough and often you don't know the road is rough until you're into it. So the bail out skill is (1) don't panic (2) slow down smoothly without jerky turning if at all possible (because either hard turning or hard braking can make you lose traction and doing both practically guarantees it; and you don't want to be on your brakes, especially your front brake, when you hit the far side of a pothole because that transfers weight to the front wheel right when you need to be unweighting it) (3) don't stare at the danger points (e.g., potholes, rocks, patches of gravel, etc.) -- instead find your path through and concentrate on that. This is the same bail out if you decide you overcooked going into a turn -- instead of trying to turn hard on your intended line (which you now realize won't work at your speed), brake smoothly without turning hard if at all possible even if you have to come all the way to a stop if that will keep you on the tarmac (or a safe patch of grass, etc. off the tarmac if available) -- this move is seen every year at the TDF -- it costs the rider some time, but not nearly as much time if he would have ridden off a cliff ; ).

Also, part of comfort zone is not being in aero position. So don't be in aero at high speed going into turns so you have a bigger margin of error. If you are in aero and find you are getting in trouble (rough road, too fast on turn, etc), you have to judge whether you have the skills to get onto your base bars while doing everything you need to do to save the situation. You should get as comfortable as you can get getting quickly out of aero. You will be in such a better position to survive with hands on base bars and weight more balanced between your wheels.
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Re: Descending skills / how to gain confidence? [spockwaslen] [ In reply to ]
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Confidence = greater enjoyment and greater safety

Eventually confidence will mean greater speeds with even higher safety.

That is my reasoning.
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Re: Descending skills / how to gain confidence? [jt10000] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks, appreciate. I think i actually read your article several years ago!

What drills would you practice in the parking lot? I have done figure 'S' and i found them quite helpful. I tried cone pickups but was thoroughly incapable of doing that... track stands - ditto, not a chance. Would love to know what to practice / drills to do...

Of course, there is also the psychological part which for me (at least) involves getting out of the negative self-talk while descending and enjoying the positive...
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Re: Descending skills / how to gain confidence? [Dan Funk] [ In reply to ]
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Dan Funk wrote:
Pro_Sandbagger wrote:
I practice my descending on Zwift. I find I've gotten really fast on the cycling simulator and can do most of the descents there over 45mph. Can't wait to see the improvements during my next race.


Kudos...one of the funniest things I've read on ST in a long time...

Matches well with his username too :-)
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Re: Descending skills / how to gain confidence? [SLBTRI] [ In reply to ]
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SLBTRI wrote:
Look where you want to go and not where you are.

Yes, yes... When I am not careful i look at where i do not want to be... Instead of where I want to be. Obviously, that is incredibly unhelpful
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Re: Descending skills / how to gain confidence? [ejd_mil] [ In reply to ]
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More chamois time is a big part of the solution.

Descending is a definite strength of mine. Understanding lines through corners and learning good technique is helpful but for me it took getting dropped in cyclocross races for me to see big improvements. I was terrified of crashing after having broken a vertebrae in a mtb wreck. All the practice over different types of corners (off camber, wet grass, snow, gravel, 180 degrees, etc.) along with lots of progressively smaller and faster figure 8s on grass made paved descents seem like a walk in the park. Besides, CX is both a blast and a great workout.

Good luck!

Scott


I have deceptive speed.........I'm slower than I look!
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Re: Descending skills / how to gain confidence? [Dan Funk] [ In reply to ]
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Dan Funk wrote:
Pro_Sandbagger wrote:
I practice my descending on Zwift. I find I've gotten really fast on the cycling simulator and can do most of the descents there over 45mph. Can't wait to see the improvements during my next race.

Kudos...one of the funniest things I've read on ST in a long time...

lol and not even in pink

https://www.strava.com/...tes/zachary_mckinney
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