Just thinking outloud... There are a couple issues here:

1. Fast AG males being as fast or faster than pro females.
2. Looped bike courses.

When option 2 exists, option 1 is compounded even more so.

But in general, I think the biggest problem is crowds. It's not like the handful of jerky guys are only jerky to women. There are plenty of us who look at the hyper aggressive jerk and wonder what's going on with that guy.

Now for the farmer analogy....
I thought I had occur to me the other day when taking care of my chickens, is that when they are all crowded together on account of a recent storm, they hens really treat each other like crap. (not that the rooster is any better, he's a real cock) But those ladies really do hen-peck each other when they have to be around each other a lot and are stressed.

There is a crowd dynamic at play I think in us humans we might not fully appreciate when talking about this issue in Ironman. Crowds add to stress, high levels of stress lead to more aggressive outbursts. We see it in cities, schools, and flocks.

None of this excuses the behavior of those creating the problems. But I do think it's worth pointing out the reasons why the stress levels are elevated. And of course, the mere fact that everyone is out there engaged in stress-inducing activity on little sleep from the night before then we're literally put into a "corral" where despite best intentions, stress levels for some percent are going to be rising from the start.

It seems like the best way to minimize these stresses is going to be:
Wave starts/timing / less crowds
Less Loops
Less Registrations sold

Unfortunately Ironman FL appears to be the only NA race outside of Kona that's not a looped bike course. I don't think selling less registrations is the way to go. I think if anything the pros should want IM to sell as much as possible, especially the female pros since they depend disproportionately on male AG revenue to fund their prize purse.

The course designs are really the problem. So if IM could buy the permitting to non-looped courses everywhere, what's it going to add to entrance prices? $70-100 more a person? I'd absolutely be willing to pay 100 bucks more for a non-looped course.

Here are some points to consider...

NINE (up from yesterday's 7) professional women have said that their races were negatively impacted by age group men.

People here are questioning the validity of their claims, which is BANANAS.

The Ironman Texas results list 2782 total participants, and of that 488 were women. Just 17%. So while perhaps there could have been an AG woman in with these poorly behaved draft packs, the math supports the first hand accounts of these eight professional athletes, that these packs were comprised of men.

Also, there are NINE independent accounts from these professional women about how their races were impacted by AG men on the bike. They didn't get together as a group to determine a narrative, it wasn't an isolated incident of one person. It was at least 25% of the professional women's field who had a common, negative experience. And.... why would they make this up?

Instead of saying "the OP's generalisms makes all men look like they're to blame", perhaps, put yourselves in one of those women's shoes and ask "shouldn't I be deserving of a fair and safe race?"

Finally, while I am a very average AG female athlete, I have been in the sport for 16 years. I have COUNTLESS experiences of my race, as a mid pack AG racer being negatively impacted by men. It's usually a guy passing me and then immediately slowing down upon completing his pass. I then have to slow way down (or usually stop pedaling) to allow for the legal distance (or else I'd get an overtaking penalty), and then the guy usually doesn't go faster and I get to decide if I want to burn a match to pass him and then play this stupid game repeatedly. And this usually happens multiple times over the course of a race, and it's never done by the same individual. It's never another woman athlete doing this to me, it's always a man. And I bet if you talk to your female training partners, they all have similar stories.

So yeah, men can and should do better.

***those men*** can and should do better. Not 'men' as in ALL men, which is the implication. I and other 'men' had nothing to do with it. Never do. It is a minority. Generalizations help no one.

Hi. I am Clarice, the one that got pushed on the bike. He made contact with me but I did not crash - I remained upright and continued pedaling despite being all "WTF?" over what just happened. He was trying to follow the group he was with, tried slotting in front of me to stick onto the wheel he was sucking, pushed me, then continued on.

I am not interested in pressing charges, getting this guy in trouble, etc. I never said any of this.

There is no video evidence. I never claimed this was "assault" or I wanted to retaliate against this man.

This is my story to tell, with many people deciding to throw in their own opinions. I felt as if I needed to come here to say this.

I understand this happens as a back of the pack swimmer. I'm not a top professional woman - I am a happy to be here professional athlete who has the privilege of being able to race at the top level. This is not my full time gig. It's fine - I know my weaknesses.

I didn't appreciate the groups riding with me but I kept to my own race and focused on the Race Rangers of the pros that I was riding with. We asked the official if we could do this and he said fine. They knew this would be an issue going into the second loop.

I ran past the man that pushed me on the bike very early into the run - that was enough karma for me.

On your left doesnt work most of the time.. they look that direction and then float the direction they are lookingand then Im swerving to miss them. My experience is better to say nothing 80% of the time.

I respectfully disagree. I raced this weekend on a very crowded course and I greatly appreciated it when people spoke up before passing ("on your left"). In fact, I thank them.

While I have noticed people riding on trails drift to their left (while turning to look over their shoulder), I have not experienced this during a race.

Never understood the whole "on your left" thingy unless you are asking someone to move on a narrow trail, etc.. Pass on the left hand side of the rider, so simple. What's the point of saying it? We should all be expecting riders to pass us on the left hand side. I often see a lot of older/slower riders get triggered about it.

Here are some points to consider...

NINE (up from yesterday's 7) professional women have said that their races were negatively impacted by age group men.

People here are questioning the validity of their claims, which is BANANAS.

The Ironman Texas results list 2782 total participants, and of that 488 were women. Just 17%. So while perhaps there could have been an AG woman in with these poorly behaved draft packs, the math supports the first hand accounts of these eight professional athletes, that these packs were comprised of men.

Also, there are NINE independent accounts from these professional women about how their races were impacted by AG men on the bike. They didn't get together as a group to determine a narrative, it wasn't an isolated incident of one person. It was at least 25% of the professional women's field who had a common, negative experience. And.... why would they make this up?

Instead of saying "the OP's generalisms makes all men look like they're to blame", perhaps, put yourselves in one of those women's shoes and ask "shouldn't I be deserving of a fair and safe race?"

Finally, while I am a very average AG female athlete, I have been in the sport for 16 years. I have COUNTLESS experiences of my race, as a mid pack AG racer being negatively impacted by men. It's usually a guy passing me and then immediately slowing down upon completing his pass. I then have to slow way down (or usually stop pedaling) to allow for the legal distance (or else I'd get an overtaking penalty), and then the guy usually doesn't go faster and I get to decide if I want to burn a match to pass him and then play this stupid game repeatedly. And this usually happens multiple times over the course of a race, and it's never done by the same individual. It's never another woman athlete doing this to me, it's always a man. And I bet if you talk to your female training partners, they all have similar stories.

So yeah, men can and should do better.

Gosh / there is little hope in taking the online stupidity down a notch.

It was a dumb post.

Just a note in general to the thread - If the FOP AG men are the problem, then shouldn't we be hearing equal amounts if not more complaints from AG men swimmers and other FOP AG men? Just by sheer numbers there are more FOP AG men than WPro, so there should be more complaints from them, all else being equal.

Maybe this is because what most men feel is acceptable racing aggression is beyond what most women feel is acceptable.

***those men*** can and should do better. Not 'men' as in ALL men, which is the implication. I and other 'men' had nothing to do with it. Never do. It is a minority. Generalizations help no one.

It's also possible that the aggressive FOP AG men act worse towards women. I'd say that is a more likely explanation than the notion women are more likely to voice their complaints, which is basically what you are saying.

And as a FOP AG man, I'll go ahead and register my complaint. In just about every race I've done, there has been a handful of guys whose hyper-competitive behavior on the bike is either dangerous or hostile. Sometimes it's blatant drafting or cutting in, other times it's barking at someone they perceive to be in their way. My impression is that most people around me are trying to do the right thing, but there's a small subset that are jerks. I don't recall a woman ever being a part of that subset.

People are doing what they feel is acceptable, and different people have different standards[/b]. And as you said, men are more likely to be more aggressive. I'm sure a % of people feel that as long as it's not against the rules then it's fair, or even as long as you don't get caught breaking the rules then it's still fair. Dumb, but that's some of the people we're all racing with. There's surely some women that race that way too, but we're talking averages and outliers.

While I could reach out to IM - the problem is I have no idea what this guys number was.
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I think you are missing a major part of Gerlach's point... Whereas the pushy guy was a problem, turning him in is not necessarily the solution moving forward. If the Pros want a clean race for the M/BOP womens pro race, they need to start advocating for ways to make their race more clean. An example of this would be rallying for more officials that are designated to the latter ladies. Maybe make sure that there is 1 official per every X number of pro racers (5? 10? No idea what the number is nor what it needs to be). If there was an official anywhere near your race, then the opportunity for them to see and manage problems increases. Broadcasts have shown that the race cares a lot about the pros in front but doesn't do AS MUCH for the middle and back of the packers. Here's an opportunity for the cohort to work on making their day better.

Last I checked, most of these ladies you are talking about are top 50 in the Pro Series