Same as you...replying on the whole subject, not just you.

Our out-and-back loop was divided into three sections with cones. It was my understanding (and was told by SAG support afterwards) that the eastern most lane was for race support vehicles and not racers. On my second trip south everyone migrated to that lane and the middle lane was empty. The expansion gaps that were causing crashes were mostly in that area. I saw a few constables trying to direct everyone to the middle and heard that support vehicles were held up from racers in that lane.

It is also my understanding that when pros are mixed in with AG racers, they can stay left of the fray, whether it be a draft pack or a legal line, and race their own race. They have slightly different draft, blocking and passing rules that we do. I saw several pro women who were caught up in the AG draft packs near the front. There should have been race officials there to break up the packs and get the pro women out of the fray.

There also should have been a bigger gap between pro women start times and AG start times. At the very least, it delays the inevitable mixing of top AG men and pro women.

this is one of the most stupid posts i have read in some time.
well done .
where does she brag ...
why is complaining abut unsafe experiences ridiculous ...
and while it is the nowadays so famous hyperbole comment man have to do better its well known that a lot of guys have ego issues.
so would you not think you should be a bit less of a d.ck.

The whole thing sounds unfortunate but what do I have to do with this?

Let's try to keep sexism/racism/etc. to at least a low simmer, thanks ;)

Bragging is not an accurate word, I should have used a different one, apologies.

Still, please provide proof and/or video or at least a witness statement. Some people are very eager to crucify other people, just because someone said so.

Quoting so it makes it onto the second page where people might read it again.

Ya'll, this shit happens at *every* WPRO race and four times more on looped bike courses.

Why are men being called out? Because it's the head of AG men who wind up riding up into the WPRO field at most events. (It's the back of the pack PLUS the head of the men's AG field on looped courses). It's not sexist, it's simple facts.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

General observations from on the course on Saturday.

I didn't see the mass packs that have been present previous years - there were some blatant groups and I got swarmed three times with bikes going both sides of me (I believe I was correctly to the right side at this time) riding like a peloton. What I did see while on the way north was groups heading south that looked like they were just suffering and were spread out across the lanes not to gain an advantage, just struggling, but resulting in creating the same blocking problems.

The marking of the lanes was not clear - it seemed intuitive that the central lane should be empty as that kept the bikes heading in opposite directions away from each other and gave a lane for the motos in the middle - but apparently that was not the intent (per another poster).

I always check over my shoulder before making a pass, habit from riding on open roads I guess - and race etiquette? I got a nice thank you from a MPro as they passed me because I had looked back and could see them coming so sat up as not to pull in front of them to pass - we can be safe and courteous around other athletes if we choose to be.

As to the called out behavior by AG men I wasn't there so can't add anything, but this race interference (in degrees) happens every race. It seems the best way to provide a safe/fair WPro race is to increase the gap between start times, and/or more refs on course. I believe people have been asking for that for about 20 years!

You can't really increase gaps when there are women "pros" that are 1 hour slower than the top man AG. As said in other posts for other congested races, the bar for being a "pro" is incredibly low in the US.
6 WPros out of 29 didn't even break 10 hours, with over half the field not breaking 9.30.
5 AG women went sub 10...have they been considered to be interefering with the WPro as well?
150 AG men were sub 10, should they all have to stop for a coffee break not to interefere with those slow WPros?

Here are some points to consider...

NINE (up from yesterday's 7) professional women have said that their races were negatively impacted by age group men.

People here are questioning the validity of their claims, which is BANANAS.

The Ironman Texas results list 2782 total participants, and of that 488 were women. Just 17%. So while perhaps there could have been an AG woman in with these poorly behaved draft packs, the math supports the first hand accounts of these eight professional athletes, that these packs were comprised of men.

Also, there are NINE independent accounts from these professional women about how their races were impacted by AG men on the bike. They didn't get together as a group to determine a narrative, it wasn't an isolated incident of one person. It was at least 25% of the professional women's field who had a common, negative experience. And.... why would they make this up?

Instead of saying "the OP's generalisms makes all men look like they're to blame", perhaps, put yourselves in one of those women's shoes and ask "shouldn't I be deserving of a fair and safe race?"

Finally, while I am a very average AG female athlete, I have been in the sport for 16 years. I have COUNTLESS experiences of my race, as a mid pack AG racer being negatively impacted by men. It's usually a guy passing me and then immediately slowing down upon completing his pass. I then have to slow way down (or usually stop pedaling) to allow for the legal distance (or else I'd get an overtaking penalty), and then the guy usually doesn't go faster and I get to decide if I want to burn a match to pass him and then play this stupid game repeatedly. And this usually happens multiple times over the course of a race, and it's never done by the same individual. It's never another woman athlete doing this to me, it's always a man. And I bet if you talk to your female training partners, they all have similar stories.

So yeah, men can and should do better.

Couple of thoughts:

1.) IMTX *always* has a high rate of athletes who wind up blowing / finishing "slower" than you think they should. Heat / humidity / wind on the bike, plus being early in the year. It's like clockwork.

2.) It isn't ever just enough to look at finish times to determine whether or not the age group field was interfering with the WPRO race. It's *how* they got to that position. The issue is almost always on the bike, and so you need to factor in a.) the time gap between the start of the WPRO swim and the start of the AG field, and b.) then the actual bike splits to determine whether or not interference occurred.

3.) "Only" 25 MPRO athletes (out of 41 finishers) beat the first amateur, who went 8:30. Should everyone who finished behind the first am forfeit their pro cards?

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

100% Erin - some of the experiences I've had as a FOP AGer (with my window starting at 45 ten years ago) with other AG men has been hilarious - some of these guys will KILL themselves to not get chicked (and geezered simultaneously). I have gotten so much enjoyment from playing those games then dropping their asses on the bike or run.

At the same time, #NotAllMen haha I have also had some of the best race experiences with other guys - the best words of encouragement while I'm passing them or they're passing me - 'great job!' 'nice pace!' etc. The silly ones are a tiny minority in my experience.

Just wanted to pop on here and offer support to you - one of the few women on here who will stand up to the vocal dudes doing their 'stop being such a terrible sexist' schtick. Lol.

Okay....

I think I will respond to this on behalf of all fast age group assholes..

1) I feel that the Pro-female race is more important than my race to win my AG. I try to be courteous. Sometimes stuff happens. Sorry!!!
That female pro, I accidentally cut in too soon on, back in Kona 2012.....
Sorry!

2) I am supposed to yell "on your left"???
A) Okay!!!
Let's be clear?
I have to yell "on your left" 200 to 1000 times?
B) I have to slow down (thousands of times)?
So that people can here me yell "on your left?"

3) I am not allowed to pass any BOP rider, anywhere that THEY feel is "unsafe."
It's not what I feel is safe?
Who cares what my bike skills are!
Given- that the course is crowded, that BOP rider's have poor bike handling skills, and that BOP rider's are riding all over the road,
And I am out of breath from so much yelling!!

I pretty much shouldn't pass at all.

4) "I just don't care"-

I care about my race.
I care about the female pro-race.
I care about my peers (other amateur athletes) and their races.
I care about following the rules.
I care about being reasonable and courteous.

But I suppose that non of this counts as "caring"...

What I SHOULD really care about is the feelings of importance, and awesomeness-.... of each and everyone of the slowest 1000 people in the race.

3) unless they were injured, pretty much yes. Even if you exclude the winner, that potentially will turn pro and won 12 mins ahead of everyone else, the other 15 pros were slower and they were over 1 hr slower than the winner, roughly 15% slower, which is a different sport. Yet some of those guys celebrated on instagram for their amazing (!) performance.
In any other sport, if it takes you 15% more time than the winner, you're usually nowhere. Unsurprisingly, the vast majority is US men or women, where you can go to some mickey mouse race and get your pro card.

Also, point 2) doesn't make much sense either, looking at the swim times of those WPros...as a third of the WPros, swam a 1.10+, which in my opinion just isn't manageable by time gap of AG people starting. Hundreds of AG men swim in the 50s, should they all wait 30 mins more? Don't you think that the problem is that some of the WPro are in a different postcode from the top 5/10?

No, I don't think it's a problem. More people racing PRO is better. I don't want a cyclical return to the "pro amateur." I want more people on the start line, makes coverage look better, does the whole thing of "hey this might be a broadcast sport" better.

Texas is usually the first non-wetsuit swim of the year, and you *always* have some slower than normal times.

In an ideal world there should be a 30 minute gap between the pro field start and the AG one. But we also know that it's unlikely that event gets permitted in certain places, so...here we are. If there's going to be interference in the field (which there will be), there also needs to be a conversation about the behavior of those riding into WPROs -- and, conversely, the behavior of those WPROs when AGers wind up riding into them.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

I did this race in 2022 when the weather conditions were similar, very high winds on the Hardy. I'm towards the front of the pack and there were no issues on the first loop. The second loop, when I started catching people on the first loop, was dicey. Going into the wind people were clearly struggling and didn't really hold a straight line, lots of swerving. I saw one hit a cone and go down. On the final return with the wind at my back is when I really started catching the back of the packers and then it was an issue of speed. The wind was so strong that I could hold 30 mph with a light pedal, which is the upper limit of my comfort level. I didn't like going that speed while passing lots of people. I did not push the pace because there were just too many people whose bike skills I did not trust. I can imagine that would be a challenge for the PROs who need to go fast and didn't have the same luxury that I did to ease off.

As for the OP's claims of a man actually pushing a woman or multiple men grossly violating drafting rules, I think it's pretty easy to agree that kind of stuff goes beyond the bounds of acceptable behavior. My experience with fast men is that most are not like that, but a few are, and it can be enraging since there's not much you can do about it at the time.

Agreed. I'm a FOP female age grouper and consistently am one of the first out of the swim, which means I usually have a line of men passing on the bike. I have had all the joy of being passed unsafely, hit by a male athlete from behind on the bike (effectively ending my day, injuring me, and costing me a KQ), and the guy that passes and can't hold his line/speed. Hell I even had two guys pass me on my right through a turn at IM AZ last fall. It's beyond frustrating. While I know this is not all male athletes, all my poor experiences at races have been due to men behaving poorly or just not paying attention. I have to say, the all female races I have been to have been much kinder and a better atmosphere.

It's a bit frustrating to see the sexism and blaming the pro female athlete here. Like I said, I truly believe most male athletes are great, but the sheer numbers at races are overwhelmingly male, so the culprits are likely going to be male.

Hi. I am Clarice, the one that got pushed on the bike. He made contact with me but I did not crash - I remained upright and continued pedaling despite being all "WTF?" over what just happened. He was trying to follow the group he was with, tried slotting in front of me to stick onto the wheel he was sucking, pushed me, then continued on.

I am not interested in pressing charges, getting this guy in trouble, etc. I never said any of this.

There is no video evidence. I never claimed this was "assault" or I wanted to retaliate against this man.

This is my story to tell, with many people deciding to throw in their own opinions. I felt as if I needed to come here to say this.

I understand this happens as a back of the pack swimmer. I'm not a top professional woman - I am a happy to be here professional athlete who has the privilege of being able to race at the top level. This is not my full time gig. It's fine - I know my weaknesses.

I didn't appreciate the groups riding with me but I kept to my own race and focused on the Race Rangers of the pros that I was riding with. We asked the official if we could do this and he said fine. They knew this would be an issue going into the second loop.

I ran past the man that pushed me on the bike very early into the run - that was enough karma for me.

I wasn't trying to block anyone. I am riding my own race and this massive pack comes through. It's literally seconds before I can process what is happening. The AGer was trying to follow the wheel of the guys in front of him, he was 3rd or 4th in this pack - I was already to the right minding my own business as these people tried barreling through.

I just want to clarify something.. So I know your races have been negatively impacted by men, but have your races ever been negatively impacted by women? Also do you think men have their races negatively impacted women?

As an aside I was always in favor of the pro women starting first, and having more spacing between start of pro men and women. What do you think of women starting first?

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Hi Clarice, my name is Thomas. I was a super noisy as f*ck professional from long ago. I am big part of the reason you have your own pro potties in transition, prior to that we had to use the regular potties which were always crowded making that last minute potty stop impossible. I mention this because I have fought hard for the rights of professionals and to have ***clean*** races. Not that professionals add a ton of value to the race, I don't think we do, and age-groupers are the ones that make these races possible.

That said there is no need for violence, either physical or verbal on the race course. I have had many incidents in my career which are unsettling to say the least. I even had an amatuer verbally threaten me on a race course. I was able to get the official looped in during the race and the athlete is now banned for life from Ironman triathlon (10+ years ago). From my experience Ironman took these incidents very seriously at one time. There is a lot of discretion in determining someone's intent. In my case the athlete was hostile and endangering the race of others in a malicious manner. If someone pushed you on the bike maliciously that is a very serious thing. However in congestion there is always a chance the person did so out of safety or purely out of instinct and with no malice. Obviously the intent matters. Personally I don't want to be on a race course with someone who is unhinged and acting with malice. If it is the latter I would encourage you to follow up on it. I actually wish I complained more to Ironman looking back on things. It is a regret. At the time I was just trying to focus on being the best athlete I could be and some of my complaints were against the behavior of my own peers who were more "golden" to the Ironman brand. One example was when I coldclocked in the swim by a many time Ironman champ, there is plenty of contact in the swim and you need to prepare for it but I know the difference between an accidently elbow to the swim goggle, a kick to the face, and just a straight up coldclock attempt. Needless to say I bit my tongue more times than I can count.

I would also suggest (not to mansplain, would tell a male pro the same thing) the pro women voice their concerns at pro meetings. IME there was always some discretion with things, I can remember talking about things like the timing of age-group starts and I can remember once or twice where there was enough concern that we got Ironman to push the age-groupers back 5 to 15 mins. I haven't been to a meeting at years, but I hope there are some vocal pros who speak their minds at meetings. If Tom Z is still around, know the he can be incredibly effective in rejiggering operational issues with Ironman.

Happy racing!

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Hi Tom!

Thanks for the porta potties! I really appreciate those :)

While I could reach out to IM - the problem is I have no idea what this guys number was. I get what you mean - maybe he did not have ill intentions versus wanting to shove someone out of their way. I've thought about this. I've also thought about oh - what was I maybe doing wrong, etc. a lot over the last few days after this has developed traction.

One female pro talked about the congestion on course at the professional meeting so I am glad she did because we knew that we were to ride our professional race versus focusing on the AGers. The officials understood this as they drove by and saw me and another female pro stuck in a pack with these age groupers.

There are always going to be professionals towards the back of the pack. We all aren't going to be in the top 100, heck maybe even top 200. And that's okay. We are well aware of this, believe me. We don't need people to tell us this.

Thanks for posting this. I appreciate someone writing a nice comment and giving good advice. This really makes me want to say something in the future, so maybe you'll help start the change.

I think this part is awesome, and by far the most effective way to respond to an idiot in a race.

I'm not Erin, and I haven't been racing as long (~9 yrs), but I can say that no, my race has never been negatively affected by women (except in a swim with wave starts).

I'm an ex collegiate swimmer and swimming through wave starts is a pain. I do prefer wave starts to rolling starts for understanding your standing in the field. But swimming through early waves is frustrating and traffic for later waves from earlier waves negatively affects my race.

I've never been negatively impacted by a woman on the bike or run course.

I have had men on the bike course either act like I'm an obstacle when passing, pass as a massive pack, do the pass me - slow down - require me to drop out of draft zone - and make me pass dance multiple times, and ride unsafely with close passes, blocking, dropped nutrition, and so on. The only time I've had an 'issue' with a fellow female competitor on course is when its a local race and the sprint waves go first and I'm passing the back of the field, and brand new athletes on beach cruisers or mountain bikes are weaving, and even then, I mention they should ride to the right as I pass and off they go.

I have had men on the run course pass me in very strange, aggressive manners. Think run drafting like Andy Bernard in The Office - run up right on my heels, quickly dodge around me, and then jump right back in front of me. No words exchanged. No woman has ever passed me like that!



And back to the matter at hand - I am such a big fan of getting the pro women out front first. Marathons do it!! To avoid interference and encourage head-to-head competition! I think there'd have to be a study of swim times and bike pacing before committing to an actual gap, though. I'd be concerned that you'd have the middle of the bell curve of pro women getting out of the water at the same time as too-big a group of pro men. But in theory I want this to happen.

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KJ
Swim and Triathlon Coach
AllTerrainEndurance.com
KJ@allterrainendurance.com

Just thinking outloud... There are a couple issues here:

1. Fast AG males being as fast or faster than pro females.
2. Looped bike courses.

When option 2 exists, option 1 is compounded even more so.

But in general, I think the biggest problem is crowds. It's not like the handful of jerky guys are only jerky to women. There are plenty of us who look at the hyper aggressive jerk and wonder what's going on with that guy.

Now for the farmer analogy....
I thought I had occur to me the other day when taking care of my chickens, is that when they are all crowded together on account of a recent storm, they hens really treat each other like crap. (not that the rooster is any better, he's a real cock) But those ladies really do hen-peck each other when they have to be around each other a lot and are stressed.

There is a crowd dynamic at play I think in us humans we might not fully appreciate when talking about this issue in Ironman. Crowds add to stress, high levels of stress lead to more aggressive outbursts. We see it in cities, schools, and flocks.

None of this excuses the behavior of those creating the problems. But I do think it's worth pointing out the reasons why the stress levels are elevated. And of course, the mere fact that everyone is out there engaged in stress-inducing activity on little sleep from the night before then we're literally put into a "corral" where despite best intentions, stress levels for some percent are going to be rising from the start.

It seems like the best way to minimize these stresses is going to be:
Wave starts/timing / less crowds
Less Loops
Less Registrations sold

Unfortunately Ironman FL appears to be the only NA race outside of Kona that's not a looped bike course. I don't think selling less registrations is the way to go. I think if anything the pros should want IM to sell as much as possible, especially the female pros since they depend disproportionately on male AG revenue to fund their prize purse.

The course designs are really the problem. So if IM could buy the permitting to non-looped courses everywhere, what's it going to add to entrance prices? $70-100 more a person? I'd absolutely be willing to pay 100 bucks more for a non-looped course.

Replying to all thread,

Do you think Ironman cares about the pros or the AG, they only care about your $$$, pros cost them money, slow AG is the gravy,
IM doesn't care they have no bike skills, or even know the USAT rules and etiquettes,
Until you stop supporting IM races, nothing will change.