I'm sure Pfizer, Moderna and J&J would be all for this idea. Like many others, I'd like to be able to race again, especially without the restrictions of masks, distancing, wave starts, etc. At the same time, forcing everyone to take a vaccine for a virus many of us don't see as the apocalyptic plague the media and current administration frames it as feels a lot like coercion. I understand pros succumbing to such pressures as their paychecks are on the line. However, I think forcing everyone to take a vaccine (or wear a mask for that matter) is one more step in a loss of personal freedoms.

Personally, I've canned the idea of racing this year because it is a hobby, not a profession and fitness is a way of life, not tied to a specific race. I'm in the camp that forcing anyone to take a vaccine against their will or using coercive measures to compel people to align their actions with the values of the masses is a slippery slope we're tobogganing down as I type this.

PS. I'm adding a quick disclaimer as I recognize my opinion will more than likely spin up a number of folks. I'm glad Slowman put this topic on the forum as a discussion and am offering my perspective in response to his question, not poking at folks with different opinions (of which there are many) nor suggesting that my perspective is the right one to have. I firmly believe that if people want to take the vaccine for whatever reasons they have, they should do so. Same thing with masks and other precautions. At the same time, those of us that feel different shouldn't be compelled to go against what we believe to be right for us as individuals.

I referred to the second paragraph of your post #217.
But surely I misread or misunderstood.

And no, not gonna take that cheap bait.
.

Good post. There is the bigger picture of the herd dynamics at play, majorly driven by instincts rather than rational thinking. And then there’s plenty of lemmings.
It’s an interesting time for sociology research and ‘history repeats itself’.


I am vaccinated, but thought long and hard about it.
In the end the vaccine has no downsides (and other than some disease-attenuation, no world-changing upsides either). In the big social picture, pretty similar to a Flu shot, actually.
I consider it more of a good-will gesture (agreeing to be a mensch).
I don’t think it curtails my freedom to show that meaningless paper card. It’s like a donation or ‘I voted’ badge.

What I object to is people weaponizing the issue for their own personal agenda.

So I reserve my fights for Slowman (Just kidding) or other more insidious approaches to curtail my freedom.

At the same time, those of us that feel different shouldn't be compelled to go against what we believe to be right for us as individuals. //

As I can see, no one is doing that at all. You are free to do what your beliefs tell you is right, and go on about your business. But just as you cannot walk into a restaurant naked, you may not be able to do some other things too without being vaccinated. Your precious choices are still in tact, you just cannot infringe on other peoples choices. in many different ways...

Monty, I think your statement is roughly OK once these vaccines are formally approved.

While they are experimental, talking down to someone who is cautious and may want to wait won't get us to get them to vaccinate. Private businesses (like mine) may be able to force their clients to be vaccinated but they will have a tough time to forcefully make employees vaccinate (which is why my employees will be able to work at full pay for home if unvaccinated at least initially.), but generally in society in MOST countries, it will have to remain optional until the vaccines have gone through the full regulatory hoop.

But let's take it another step. Can Ironman or a race director force an employee to be vaccinated if the race site requires that, dictated by the city? I think they would have to find an alternative way to pay the employee to do other work that does not require them to be on race site. As a customer if the company says the race is only for vaccinated people and then puts an unvaccinated person onsite to work because they cannot force that on the employee and that person is at the the race then what?

Yeah, I really think those against it need to get off the “forcing you to do something” argument. No one is forcing you to do anything. Nor is that even being proposed here

You lost me here. What was there to think about if there were no downsides?

It is fascinating to me that we are simultaneously having a national debate over voter ID laws and vax passports, with most of the public on one side but not the other out of political allegiance. The lack of consistency tells me all I need to know about the phoniness of the debate.

I seem to recall "show me your papers" being abused by governments in the past but my memory escapes me as to the historical context.

As to your question, no thanks. I am not at risk and do not interact with anyone that is. I may or may not have the vax but am indifferent if those around me do or do not, particularly given the extremely low likelihood of transmission at an outdoor event. Every race I have done has a disclaimer that I am at risk when I race. It is not the RD's responsibility to protect me from germs. If this is too much for my fellow competitors to handle, maybe they should stay at home and race on Zwift?

Personally, I think RDs should fight this with all they have but the target audience is completely on board so it does not surprise that they are not. Is a flu vax passport next?

when you say RDs should "fight this with all they have," fight what? what should they be fighting?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Vax passport.

you mean the governmental imperative that is now forcing them to use a vax passport?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

While they are experimental, talking down to someone who is cautious and may want to wait won't get us to get them to vaccinate.//

Where did I talk down to anyone? I simply stated that his belief if fine, as long as it doesn't infringe on others. No one is forcing him to get vaccinated. Now if he could buy food or water because of this, then that would be different. But I dont get to bring food or a weapon into a baseball game, or have bare feet in a nice restaurant, or drive without my seat belt. Not being able to participate in a few races is not forcing anyone to go against their beliefs in this matter. You have been to China and many other foreign countries that dont think like we do, now there you would have a case of force...

I am not familiar with the "government imperative" of which you speak. Do you have specifics on this?

It came across as a talk down when you said precious choices rather than simply choices and when you used the extreme example of walking into a restaurant naked. Neither is helpful towards a reasonable discourses

I am your side and would like to see more vaccinated but when people are on the fence and then we talk about precious choices or choosing to show up at restaurants naked it's not going to convince others to take the leap. More likely to create wider divide.

Staying home is a choice, too. You do not have a right to be surrounded by those that make personal health decisions that you agree with.

Out of curiosity, which of the following informs your position?

a) It is RD's responsibility to contribute to overall public health
b) It is RD's responsibility to help ensure the health of paying customers

sure. here are the specifics. there is no government imperative. there is no suggestion of it. or even brought it up as a conversation point.

the poll asked about a hypothetical, which was, if an RD or RDs found that proof of vaccination would allow them to open a race to take place for which permits are currently unavailable, would users be in favor of this? the RD (or RDs) would not have to "fight" anything, because there is nothing to fight. they either would decide to take this affirmative act, or they would not. no one is forcing them to do this. or suggesting it. there is nothing to "fight".

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I am having trouble following the plot. You mentioned a "government imperative" which you now state was not suggested. Your original post which is different than what you are representing in your reply. But whatevs. Any question that you ask that involves vax passport will receive a hard no response from me.

i see your point. i guess you just have to have followed all the discussions on this, including the thread on the poll. to be clear, there is no suggestion - anywhere - that there be any sort of mandate that RDs do this. the question (to me, and in the poll) is whether you'd enter a race if the RD (on his own volition) required the vaccine as a condition of entry, for now, so that he could put on a race that he would not otherwise be able to produce.

in europe, in california, in the northeast, NY, and so on, and in a lot of other countries, there are no triathlons, and there are no signs (that i can see) that triathlons will occur in the foreseeable future. however, i'm optimistic that this will change. so, perhaps the RD taking this step is moot. but a year ago i didn't think we'd still be asking ourselves, approaching may of 2021, when wide swathes of the U.S. and the world will again be able to host triathlons.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Klaus has definitely lost the plot. Lemme help. You said RDs should resist this requirement.

The question was should RDs make the decision to do this.

Dan was leading you on there but you didn’t get it

Hope this helps but popcorn is ready if the outcome is otherwise

Well, you may be one of those Illuminati who can actually call out Dan on ‘stirring the pot’.

Others would risk getting banned.
.

The vaccine is out and available. People that want it can get it. People that don’t want it shouldn’t have to just to race. That makes it forced compliance. Is that what we are aiming to do?

http://

For certain states, and despite all the triumphant success posts, this is far from the actual truth.
Snapshot:
https://www.sfgate.com/...Gate-HP-CP-Spotlight

Put your figures into context!
42%+ of americans are considered obese. So, sure if 80% of those hospitalised are obese it's disproportionate to the population but it's not like that group are a small minority. Also for these figures to be useful, one would have to consider rate of obesity by age. If a larger proportion of older folks are prone to obesity, and age is also correlated with severe impact Covid-19, you may have to explain how you know obesity rather than age is at fault. Surely you'd accept it's unfair to blame people for their recklessness in getting too old?
You're part of a society. Don't be too quick to assign blame and pretend things are as simple as you'd like to imagine.

This is an interesting POV.
It is in the end about perspective. It just matters what we are going to establish as a status quo and the rest of us have the "freedom" to just turn our back and do something else. Seems like a great country.
There really is no precedent for adults having to prove vax and release personal health information for basic activities within our own country. Sure, for foreign travel....or if you are still in the public education system in some places.

Some people believe it should be required. Some people don't. If you want to play the people's rights game, then a RD (as a person) should be allowed to say my race requires it, if that is what they believe, just as you should be able to say I'm not racing your race because I disagree with you. If there was only one race, you would be discriminated against, but since there are plenty, it doesn't hold water. Similar to the CO cake baker. There are other option. (Now going to sit back and get some popcorn)