The World Anti-Doping Agency has lowered the limit for the maximum T/E level from 6:1 to 4:1. Some athletes have naturally high levels, and can prove this through a series of tests. (this from the cycling news article)

Does the UCI follow the World Anti-Doping Agency guidelines?

yup...it is possible that he cheated and got caught.

It is also possible that he didn't, and the funny fact that while people are cynical enough of athletes, they don't hold the same standards to physicians, scientists, etc. (who have made some incremental blunders over time themselves).

The fact people think there is "only" one explanation possible for any given event (especially one based on very limited "evidence") just displays the degradation of intellect in society. It is truly sad....

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Craig Preston - President / Preston Presentations
Saving the world with more professional, powerful, and persuasive presentations - one audience at a time.

You called me naive. Don't start making personal remarks if you do not want them back. To expect not for that to happen is... naive.

Fair enough. Tit for tat, I guess.

I still maintain that anyone who thinks that Pereire is definitely clean and was robbed, is being naive.

I do not, however, think that I am lame. Whatever.

Again, you got anything but opinon? Anything to base an argument on? I've showed you consistent results that would suggest he can TT within 1:30 of the winner. I've shown where he can win TTs and stages. You got anything?

I'm not quite sure why you are so excited to argue with me. I suppose emotions are running high, today. I agree that he is a strong athlete, and have told you that I am aware of his performances. I do not need to post times. You are doing that for me.

I also said that he deserves the second place that he earned by his amazing time trial.

I also said that it was the TT of his life. PEREIRO said so. That is a fact. Even he said (paraphrase) "In a good TT for me, I am still 2 min back from the leader".

Have a great day.

that takes away his personal responsibility. if he doesn't know what is in there, he should be asking.

"I'm not quite sure why you are so excited to argue with me."

Your post in response to me:

"Right, because we KNOW that Pereiro must be clean, after magically riding his best TT EVER. He must be clean because he was not caught."

That is just assinine. You are pulling tings out of your ass and implying somebody you have no proof of doping is indeed doping. You deserve to be argued with, just from a logic point of view.

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Now you post:

"I do not need to post times. You are doing that for me. "

and

"I also said that it was the TT of his life. PEREIRO said so. That is a fact."

Have you ever taken logic? Have you gone to college?

I did post times, but they did not support your statement. You are implying that Pereiro had the TT of his life, and thus was doping. I showed that he did not have the TT of his life. The times I showed prove he can have TTs where he wins or places very high, and comes close to tremendous specialists- Bradly McGee. His statement was surely a modest account given to the press- he is a humble guy. What was he supposed to say, "I've done better?"

The guy has results comparable to his TdF TT.

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"I still maintain that anyone who thinks that Pereire is definitely clean and was robbed, is being naive. "

No, what you seem to be saying is anybody that does not agree with all your opinions is naive. I think somebody not agreeing with your statements and facts would be a person who is logical.

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"I do not, however, think that I am lame. Whatever."

There you go again with opinion again.

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"Remember: a bicycle is an elegant and efficient tool designed for seeking out and defeating people who aren't as good as you."

--BikeSnobNYC

that takes away his personal responsibility. if he doesn't know what is in there, he should be asking.

And I would maintain that he has to trust his doctors and coaches. It is a part of his job.

It is also my opinion that Floyd is not the only guilty party in this scandal.

[reply]Crap.

Stage 17 was a super-human effort, though. I can imagine the rationalization that went on.

What a damn shame.[/reply]
I asked this on other thread but will ask here.
super-human effort????

So is that how it works you raise your testosterone one day(previous tests from what others are saying were okay other days just this day)
and bam it's like popeye popping a can of spinach and hes super strong all of a sudden...

I wouldn't think so maybe pcp,crack or meth but probably would blow a heart valve afterwards or something...

So can someone get that kind of boost that quick and with testosterone alone if it indeed proves to be true...

He would be crazy to just "trust his doctors and coaches" in a sport that has this many issues with doping as cycling. As an elite athlete, if he's not asking, he should be.

I do agree that he is not the only guilty party but he does own primary responsibility.

"Have you considered chimerism?"

Yeah, why hasn't someone started a charity for chimeras yet? Chimeras need love too.

"Right, because we KNOW that Pereiro must be clean, after magically riding his best TT EVER. He must be clean because he was not caught."

That is just assinine. You are pulling tings out of your ass and implying somebody you have no proof of doping is indeed doping. You deserve to be argued with, just from a logic point of view.

I suppose that in my above post I had too much of the sarcasm button on for a logical argument. As I said, emotions are high this morning.

How about this: I do not know that Pereiro is necessarily doped. I also do not know that he is NOT doped, just because he has not tested positive.

I know that it is not exactly the same, but let's use Ullrich as an example. Jan has never tested positive for an ergogenic aid, yet there are allegations that he has doped. This shows that it possible for someone to be guilty of doping, without testing positive - if the allegations against Ullrich are true, that is.

Have you ever taken logic? Have you gone to college?

I am actually just about to defend my PhD in ~4 weeks. In Muscle Physiology, specializing in muscle fatigue.

I did post times, but they did not support your statement. You are implying that Pereiro had the TT of his life, and thus was doping.

Not true. I was implying that Pereiro had the TT of his life. That is all.

However, people who get caught doping, do typically get caught doing so after the performances of a lifetime (ie. Nina, Tyler, David Millar, etc.). I agree that it is not a causal relationship, but it is suggestive of some sort of interaction.

It IS my opinion that he is not necessarily clean because he has not tested positive.

The guy has results comparable to his TdF TT.

True, but this still was one of his best TT performances ever. Even if he was being modest.

No, what you seem to be saying is anybody that does not agree with all your opinions is naive. I think somebody not agreeing with your statements and facts would be a person who is logical.


There you go again with opinion again.

Fair enough. I have my opinions. You have yours. That is was these forums are all about, in my opinion. Sharing opinions.

...And wasting time when we are supposed to be doing something else.

<<So can someone get that kind of boost that quick and with testosterone alone if it indeed proves to be true...>>

It's not like he was putting out superhuman numbers. 130k @ ~38k/hr is less than a 4 hour breakaway. I believe his avg power over this period was only 280 (I say only as I've put out ~250 over 4 hours before....and I'm sure many on this forum could do the same). His power up the Joux Plane was 373watts....or between 25 and 50 watts below his FT depending on who you ask.

The "miracle" of the effort is that he did it the day after a bonk. Anyone that has bonked hard knows you don't feel like a 130k breakaway in the mountains of the tour the next day. Testosteronethe night before would certainly give a boost in the recovery needed to make it happen.

depends on what caused the bonk..
I've had many a bad day then woke up next morning thinking oh go for a light spin for 30 minutes and bam ended up going 4 or 5 hours and having a great day usually during a 2 week camp..
Same thing bikeing and running...
Serious dehydration I guess can linger with you a few days maybe I guess for me it does but I've never had a saline iv so maybe that makes a difference.
Bonk from calories you can come back next day I'd think.. I've bonked big time on bike in hawaii struggling last 20 miles or so then with a little coke
and a couple extra minutes rest went out and had a good run...
Of course I'm not even close to the levels these guys are and probably just the fear of an iv or ending up crawling probably don't push myself that far to begin with..So I don't know just makes me curious how much boost they would really get...
Seems anytime someone does something others thought was impossible then they've got to be taking
something...

guess when a car falls on a kid and the father or mother musters up the strength to lift the car(if those storie's are true) Well I guess they were probably doping....

"Not true. I was implying that Pereiro had the TT of his life. That is all. "

What you posted was:

"Right, because we KNOW that Pereiro must be clean, after magically riding his best TT EVER. He must be clean because he was not caught."

You were implying he was doping because he rode the best TT of his life. That is not a logical, nor correct statement. Saying he rode the TT of his life can be debated as well, which I showed by example.

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"True, but this still was one of his best TT performances ever. Even if he was being modest. "

See, I even have you backpedallig on your statements.

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"How about this: I do not know that Pereiro is necessarily doped. I also do not know that he is NOT doped, just because he has not tested positive. "

How about this: I do not know that Drea is necessarily a child molestor. I also do not know that he is NOT a child molestor just because he has not been caught.

Does that sound allright?

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"I am actually just about to defend my PhD in ~4 weeks."

I really hope you have documentation to back your dissertation up. You certainly did not bring any to the table here.

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"Remember: a bicycle is an elegant and efficient tool designed for seeking out and defeating people who aren't as good as you."

--BikeSnobNYC

erm I though Drea was a woman (short for Andrea I think).

I will stick to evidence when it comes to deciding who has doped or not, otherwise you end up with a witch hunt which does nobody any good at all.

I agree that the type of bonk determines how I felt afterwards. I used to play alot of beach volleyball, and remember a couple of times where I bonked badly on Saturday (the prelim rounds), and then recovered and felt fantastic on Sunday. It is amazing what some good food, rehydrating, and a good nights sleep can do ;-)

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Craig Preston - President / Preston Presentations
Saving the world with more professional, powerful, and persuasive presentations - one audience at a time.

<< I agree that the type of bonk determines how I felt afterwards. >>

How about the type of bonk that causes you to basically lose the biggest stage race in the world? Do you think if he had something in the tank, he saved it?

[reply]<< I agree that the type of bonk determines how I felt afterwards. >>

How about the type of bonk that causes you to basically lose the biggest stage race in the world? Do you think if he had something in the tank, he saved it?[/reply]

It has nothing to do with saving anything. It is about what your body is capable on a certain day in reaction to various things like weather, hydration, nutrition, etc. I think everyone on this forum has experienced a day when they had nothing and then were great the next day.

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Proud Founder of the Jamis Mafia- Daring to be different.

You were implying he was doping because he rode the best TT of his life. That is not a logical, nor correct statement. Saying he rode the TT of his life can be debated as well, which I showed by example.

I have already agreed with you regarding the sarcastic nature of my original post. In subsequent posts I became more careful, specific and literal in what I was saying.

In a subsequent post, I also demonstrated an example which may allow us to logically question best performances by athletes in sports where doping is abundant (edited). Specifically: "However, people who get caught doping, do typically get caught doing so after the performances of a lifetime (ie. Nina, Tyler, David Millar, etc.). I agree that it is not a causal relationship, but it is suggestive of some sort of interaction. "

I am not suggesting that we question each winning performance. However, it is quite clear that there is a large amount of doping in pro cycling. And where there are outstanding performances, there are outstanding measures to get there (which definitely includes intense training, good basic health, good psychology at the very least). As has been proven recently, many of the outstanding athletes have been shown that dope is frequently used as well.

Perhaps you do not think that doping as pervasive in pro cycling as I do. I asked you earlier: Do you believe that Pereiro is likely clean?

"True, but this still was one of his best TT performances ever. Even if he was being modest. "

See, I even have you backpedallig on your statements.


Call it backpedalling if you will. I call it agreement. I merely agreed with your statement. All along, I have maintained that this is his best TT ever, which Pereiro himself supports.

You have shown evidence that he is a top contender. I agree. You have shown evidence that in the past he has even had amazing TT abilities. I agree.

How about this: I do not know that Drea is necessarily a child molestor. I also do not know that he is NOT a child molestor just because he has not been caught.

Does that sound allright?

True. You do not know that I am not a child molestor just because I have not been caught. However, I do not participate in a profession that is ridalled with child molestation. Nor do I participate in a profession where my success may be dependent on whether or not I molest a child. So, for me being a child molestor, there is not even really any suggestive correlation.

Also, I am a she, not a he.

I really hope you have documentation to back your dissertation up.

I can guarantee to you that I do.

You certainly did not bring any to the table here.

As I said previously. You have your opinion, and I have mine.

Cheers.

So as an MD do you know anything about the use of codenames or fax machines? :-)

American slowtwitchers are failing to ask the most crucial question arising out of this PED controversy:

If Landis is officially DQ'd, Will Bobke lose his OLN Yellow Jersey?

Although I'm not naive enough to believe this will actually pan out and exonerate Landis, you have to remember that they measured a [b]ratio[/b] of test to epitest. ESPN radio is reporting that his test levels were actually below normal, and his epi was at rock bottom. Also, it's a urine test, and prone to several sources of error that blood test aren't. So sit back, relax, let the facts come in, the rumors be squashed, etc.

erm I though Drea was a woman (short for Andrea I think).

Right you are! :-)

I will stick to evidence when it comes to deciding who has doped or not, otherwise you end up with a witch hunt which does nobody any good at all.

Actually, I agree. I think that I may have said this before - I don't decide with certainty that any cyclists have doped or that they haven't. But I do keep in mind that the sport of pro cycling is really dirty.

Not testing positive is obviously not a definite indication of guilt. However, especially in the case of pro cycling it is not a definite indication of innocence (ie. Ullrich and Basso).

Innocent until proven guilty?

Because B samples usually are not tested and when they get a positive A sample, they totally re-ramp up the testing process to be absolutly damn certain they get it right with the B sample.

Funny you mention this. Back in 2001, the day after the Florida State 40K Time Trial, I had blood work done. It showed that I had elevated liver enzymes and low magnesium. I got blood work done again a month later and everything was back to normal levels. My doctor told me when muscle breaks down, such as after very hard efforts, it can make your liver enzymes go up. So, maybe it is possible that Floyd just whacked his system out of balance with his super-human effort in Stage 17 and tested positive. I'm hoping that is the case.

I too wonder how much research has been done in this kind of scenario.

~ AB ~