My gut says he is innocent (as is Hamilton).

I almost spit up my coffee when I read this. Are you serious?

I really hope you are being sarcastic because no one could really be that naive.

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You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008

Here's a question - is it reasonable to expect a "normal" physiological result from someone at the end of that kind of exceptional performance, even if they're clean? How much research ahs been done on the physiology of riders after that kind of effort?

My 13 year old kid will race at the National Championship here in Mexico in a few days. With all the doping scandals going on, he is worried that maybe some of the top kids are doping and was asking me to send a letter to the President of our State association to propose that all the top kids at the nationals be tested. He is now suspicious of unexpected performances of some kids in past races. This is without knowing the lastest news about Landis.

I can imagine that those that do not have kids are only thinking about this doping scandals in an adult scenario. I am really worried about the effects of this generalized cheating by the top athletes on our next generation. These doping scandals have already many adult cyclists confused (just read the ST related threads) so you can imagine what are the younger ciclysts and triahtletes thinking.

I hope Landis did not dope, but if he did, he deserves to be banned for life... just for setting a bad example leading people (adults and children) to think that only cheaters can win such a race.

Sergio

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Note: English is not my first language. Please read this translated post considering that.

it can spike in odd ways as a result of stress (the two forms need not, I think, spike equally). Stress like: dehydration/bonk; a huge physical effort; an orgasmic experience; certain psychological states.

Then why wouldn't anyone else's spike? I'm sure that despite the pro-Landis crowds belief of a superhuman effort, there were others in the Tour that dehyrdated, gave a huge physical effort or were in certain psychological states.

consider also that if Landis missed a corticosteroid injection his testosterone might spike to compensate.

Or, consider that he cheated and got caught. That seems like the best and only explanation that makes any sense.

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__________________________________________________

You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008

Can anyone name a French rider suspected of doping?

I was waiting to see how long it would take for someone to blame the French.

It's time to let go of the French bashing and just accept that sometimes Americans cheat and sometimes they only have themselves to blame.

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__________________________________________________

You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008

When is everyone going to realize that EVERYONE dopes in cycling? A small testosterone patch on the nut'sac (yes, that's French) while your sleeping does wonders for recovery. If you take it off early enough, your levels return to normal before the test at the end of the stage. I guess his trainers forgot to yank his off early enough.

Don't believe me, ask any pro weightlifter, bodybuilder, cyclist, marathon runner, soccer player, tennis player, etc. - that is willing to talk openly.

It's the impact of the cortico on the testosterone levels that interests me.

I've been a lifelong taker of corticosteroids (not through choice), and they can do some odd things to your body.

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Stuff I like:
PBscience Triathlon Coaching and Lab Testing

[reply]I can't help but think now that the enormous amount of water Floyd took onboard on that stage wasn't about careful hydration. It was about trying to flush the drug out of his system before the end of the race.

Take a dose of a size that gives you the grunt to break away early in the day, then hope it breaks down, and you can flush out what's left before the end of the day...[/reply]

!

Axel

Ummmm... Have you considered chimerism?

"Actually, look at his results. His TT WAS a performance of a LIFETIME. Not concrete evidence of doping, but it does make one wonder... "

Now that is lame. Not logical either.

Do a little research maybe? Who won the Tour de Romandie prolouge in 2005? Who was 4th in the TT in the 2003 Tour de Suisse, only 1:06 behind Bradly McGee the winner of that stage?

Pereiro is not a nobody. He has results. You just don't want a few facts to smack your little theory around.

He has two 10ths and it looks like no a 1st at the TdF. He has a stage win in the TdF. He was 7th overal at the 2005 TdR, where he won that prolouge and 3rd overall in the above mentioned TdS. He has other wins and podiums.

Oh, he was also the rider that did all the work last year on a stage so Hincappie could sprint around him for the win. (Thankfully, not all riders are asses- See Jens Voigt.) Seems like this is the second time he has been screwed by an American, should the Landis test hold up.

Now, try not to be so lame.

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"Remember: a bicycle is an elegant and efficient tool designed for seeking out and defeating people who aren't as good as you."

--BikeSnobNYC

"A small testosterone patch on the nut'sac (yes, that's French) while your sleeping does wonders for recovery."

And for Lance.....

Sprry it was just hanging there waiting for aomebody to say it. Nuts, sorry about that choice of words. Oops, apologies again.

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"Remember: a bicycle is an elegant and efficient tool designed for seeking out and defeating people who aren't as good as you."

--BikeSnobNYC

[reply]My 13 year old kid will race at the National Championship here in Mexico in a few days. With all the doping scandals going on, he is worried that maybe some of the top kids are doping and was asking me to send a letter to the President of our State association to propose that all the top kids at the nationals be tested. He is now suspicious of unexpected performances of some kids in past races. This is without knowing the lastest news about Landis.

I can imagine that those that do not have kids are only thinking about this doping scandals in an adult scenario. I am really worried about the effects of this generalized cheating by the top athletes on our next generation. These doping scandals have already many adult cyclists confused (just read the ST related threads) so you can imagine what are the younger ciclysts and triahtletes thinking.

I hope Landis did not dope, but if he did, he deserves to be banned for life... just for setting a bad example leading people (adults and children) to think that only cheaters can win such a race.

Sergio[/reply]


If my kid EVER will want to race in a cycle race i will have to say no. I believe in letting kids choose their own way, but cycling as a competitive sport... i will work against that!

I´m dead serious with that!

What if he later becomes good? Will he be able to withstand the temptations or dig his own grave like the rest of them? I would rather not risk that...

Axel

unlike running, you mean?

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Josef
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blog

Ummmm... Have you considered chimerism?

Oh yeah, I forgot about that one. Funny I haven't heard much about it lately.

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__________________________________________________

You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008

consider also that if Landis missed a corticosteroid injection his testosterone might spike to compensate.

Or, consider that he cheated and got caught. That seems like the best and only explanation that makes any sense.

**************

Exactly. Occam's Razor for Landis & Hamilton: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor.

Interesting that so many people apply faith-based reasoning to sports. I don't.

I still like Floyd, Hamilton, Basso, Ullrich, and PANTANI -- I wish folks would just wake up from their faith-based dream world and admit that pro cycling is a dope-based organization. Same for long-distance running/track and most professional sports. Unless we take away the financial incentives (and go back to amateur events only, no cash/sponsorship allowed) there will be cheating.

Doesn't science stink sometimes? Drugs.. internet... computers... 24/7 work world... oh well, no going back now. Maybe Landis' parents had the right idea all along. Don't be surprised if Landis goes back to that way of life.

 

<<Actually, I am not uninformed. I am an MD and have studied the Hamilton case extensively.>>

Well....then.....I'll reserve comment until the Operation Puerto evidence about his entire doping program comes to a head.

That is completely ridiculous. First of all, steroids don't work that way. It's not like you can take some today and be superman tomorrow. Steroids are anabolic and they help you build muscle more quickly than natural process would allow. It takes weeks to months to get significant results from steroids. Second, You can't "flush" them out...I don't care how much water you drink. Just like any chemical compound, every steroid has a specific half-life and degrades out of your system at a specific rate...some much faster than others.



I'm not defending Landis or anyone who dopes, but let's at least try to stick with facts.

I'm well aware of his results. And he certainly deserved his second place podium spot. Now, compare his known TT ability with many others that he beat in that final TT. Read Pereiros own statements about his TTing ability.

I'm quite certain that many here would agree with me.

I just think that it is foolish to say that Pereiro was robbed. But, I believe that most of them are not clean.

Do you think that Pereiro is clean?

"Now, try not to be so lame"

Good one. Personal insult does not add credibility to your statements.

funny: the phonak team web site has "crashed" or should I say it failed the test.

http://www.phonak-cycling.ch/index.php?id=2&L=1

" Look at his results in the previous time trial in the SAME RACE. I'd say 50/50 he got some kind of illicit boost. "

Who says he was going full out? Most dometiques go easy to save their strength. Other go easy to lose time so they will later be allowed to go away on a break. Laurent Jalabert used to drop 20 minutes on stages before stages he wanted to attack for mountain points. However, Pereiro can produce exceptional results when asked. He has done TTs as good as he did in the last one of TdF2006. That is shown by my examples.

A few funnies from Huffington Post comments:

Viva la drugs!!*


*may cause dizziness, nausea and a loss of championship.

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Testosterone: Puts the MEN in MENnonite.

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All it means is Landis' got two instead of one, like Lance.

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"Remember: a bicycle is an elegant and efficient tool designed for seeking out and defeating people who aren't as good as you."

--BikeSnobNYC

[reply]unlike running, you mean?[/reply]

Yes. While i´m not silly enough to think that running on a elite-level is 100% clean, i do think that it is pretty clean on a regional level... With cycling i know for a fact that a lot of the lower classes are doing something already.

Axel

[reply][.reply]unlike running, you mean?[./reply]

Yes. While i�m not silly enough to think that running on a elite-level is 100% clean, i do think that it is pretty clean on a regional level... With cycling i know for a fact that a lot of the lower classes are doing something already.

Axel[/reply]
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Gotcha. Hence the 'Laufladen', not the 'Radladen' :-)

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Josef
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blog

 

"Now, compare his known TT ability with many others that he beat in that final TT."

I did. I showed results. Facts. You just have "opinion." Look up his results where he finished 1:06 down on Bradly Mcgee on a 33K TT. He is not the best, but he is good. Research.

"Now, try not to be so lame"

Good one. Personal insult does not add credibility to your statements. "

You called me naive. Don't start making personal remarks if you do not want them back. To expect not for that to happen is... naive.

Again, you got anything but opinon? Anything to base an argument on? I've showed you consistent results that would suggest he can TT within 1:30 of the winner. I've shown where he can win TTs and stages. You got anything?

*crickets*

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"Remember: a bicycle is an elegant and efficient tool designed for seeking out and defeating people who aren't as good as you."

--BikeSnobNYC