Re: P90X = Very Cool [yme] [ In reply to ]

Dec 14, 10 17:37

Post #101 of 145 (6435 views)

In Reply To:

Surely there must be better research then something conducted 11-12 years ago. And did you see the phrase 'may be minimal'?, means that they are not even sure of the research. Also, 'minimal' actually means some amount, not nothing, and every little bit helps, unless you are not sweating the details of trying to improve overall.

The age of the research has nothing to do with its validity. The comments you make here show that you know nothing about how to read or interpret research. Some people are just not going to be able to learn much because they keep gettin in their own way. Oh well...

Re: P90X = Very Cool [TRI] [ In reply to ]

Dec 14, 10 18:10

Post #102 of 145 (6401 views)

This has been an interesting thread. I just started P90X a week a ago as a way to mix up my off season training. I think it's great and just what I was looking for to work on basic strength in an interesting way. It's tough, that's for sure, but just what I was looking for to have a little variety. It's nice not to stagger downstairs at 5am and face my treadmill or computrainer for a while!

Re: P90X = Very Cool [Rufus T.] [ In reply to ]

Dec 14, 10 18:27

Post #103 of 145 (6383 views)

YIKES!!!, lol

I think perhaps she went on the PX90 cause she NEEDED to tighten up her core....

and by core I mean sphincter

Still giggling like a school kid at this... :D :D

blood, sweat...and big gears

I hated every minute of training, but I said, ''Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.''
- Muhammad Ali

Re: P90X = Very Cool [klehner] [ In reply to ]

Dec 14, 10 18:45

Post #104 of 145 (6364 views)

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

Ken, you say that staying in the aero position is not a function of flexibility or "core strength but instead it is a function of endurance.

I can only assume you are talking about muscular endurance which of course comes from actively engaging those muscle groups. Whether someone chooses to use P90X, or some other form of training to achieve it the end result is the same.

A strong, flexible core is going to give you the ability to A) get lower - therefore possibly more aero and thus faster, and B) the ability to stay there longer while still maintaining power output.

A strong, flexible core is more than just having a six pack, and that I think is TRI's point about P90X, it gives you a complete body workout in several different areas.

Disclaimer: I have never done the P90X program but am familiar with the workouts, and I do come from a Kinesiology/Biomechanics background.

Anyone can get in a good aero position, assuming normal health and range of motion. The only restrictions occur when the hip angle gets so small that the thighs hit the chest, and that's not a flexibiliity issue. Staying there for more than a couple of minutes doesn't require any more flexibility or strength: it requires simple endurance. The force requirements are really small, just like pedaling itself. Being massively strong won't help, and may hinder endurance performance (as has been pointed out, again, ad nauseum).

Here's a challenge for you. I never lift. I do swim a lot, though. I'll wager, without any objective evidence behind it, that I can beat any similarly sized lifter type in a contest of lat pulldowns, where the winner is the one who can move more total weight in ten minutes. I'll put up my endurance against strength any day.

So does that mean you are old and haggard ?

Re: P90X = Very Cool [Physiojoe925] [ In reply to ]

Dec 15, 10 1:46

Post #105 of 145 (6288 views)

Lets face it. everyone picks the research they want to believe. It is a whole lot easier to sit on the bike, or swim, or run then to actually stress your muscular system through resistance work. You have just heard from other triathletes how much harder it is to do the P90 workouts then thier typical tri workouts. I think the HTFU phrase has to drop here on ST as it looks like people are picking the easy way out on thier training.

Re: P90X = Very Cool [yme] [ In reply to ]

Dec 15, 10 4:26

Post #106 of 145 (6262 views)

In Reply To:

Lets face it. everyone picks the research they want to believe. It is a whole lot easier to sit on the bike, or swim, or run then to actually stress your muscular system through resistance work. You have just heard from other triathletes how much harder it is to do the P90 workouts then thier typical tri workouts. I think the HTFU phrase has to drop here on ST as it looks like people are picking the easy way out on thier training.

The difference is that you have no research in which to believe.

Put any elite P90X stud in the pool with me or monty, two 50+ geezers, and they'll be crying like a baby inside of 10 minutes. If they haven't drowned by then.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

Re: P90X = Very Cool [yme] [ In reply to ]

Dec 15, 10 5:55

Post #107 of 145 (6232 views)

In Reply To:

Lets face it. everyone picks the research they want to believe. It is a whole lot easier to sit on the bike, or swim, or run then to actually stress your muscular system through resistance work. You have just heard from other triathletes how much harder it is to do the P90 workouts then thier typical tri workouts. I think the HTFU phrase has to drop here on ST as it looks like people are picking the easy way out on thier training.

If you want a direct comparison between my workouts and yours, go to the gym and then join me on my 3 hour trainer ride this morning with long tempo at 85% FTP.

I know those 3 hours won't "actually stress [my] muscular system," but it sure will make me a hell of a lot faster :)

-Physiojoe

-Physiojoe
Instagram: @thephysiojoe
Cycling coach, Elite racer on Wooster Bikewerks p/b Wootown Bagels

Re: P90X = Very Cool [klehner] [ In reply to ]

Dec 15, 10 6:17

Post #108 of 145 (6218 views)

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

Lets face it. everyone picks the research they want to believe. It is a whole lot easier to sit on the bike, or swim, or run then to actually stress your muscular system through resistance work. You have just heard from other triathletes how much harder it is to do the P90 workouts then thier typical tri workouts. I think the HTFU phrase has to drop here on ST as it looks like people are picking the easy way out on thier training.

The difference is that you have no research in which to believe.

Put any elite P90X stud in the pool with me or monty, two 50+ geezers, and they'll be crying like a baby inside of 10 minutes. If they haven't drowned by then.

That's great - I'm sure you're a fantastic swimmer. However, if you measure one's fitness by weighing strength, flexibility, and endurance equally, than that Tony Horton dude is probably in better shape than you are. I agree with you that your average triathlete is a fool if he thinks P90X will make him better at S, B, or R, but that doesn't means programs like P90X don't have a lot of value if your goal is overall fitness. I've done multiple ironmans, ultras, 5K+ open water swims et al where all I've focused on is my endurance fitness. But combining P90X with a meager 5-10 hours/week of my normal endurance workouts has made me feel better than I ever have before...it's like a light bulb has gone off in my head - wow,there really is a lot of value to strength training. I'm not delusional enough to think I could match my PR in any endurance event right now, but I could care less because I feel so damn good. Not to mention, my wife actually digs my upper body. She could give 2 rips about my mile splits or 10K pool sessions, but damn if she doesn't keep talking about my new biceps and lats. Oh yeah, and all those other activities that I love to do, surfing and skiing especially...the change in performance has been profound. So care to spend a week with me in Vail this winter or in Hatteras on the water next summer? We'll see whose crying then.

Re: P90X = Very Cool [jepvb] [ In reply to ]

Dec 15, 10 6:32

Post #109 of 145 (6207 views)

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

Lets face it. everyone picks the research they want to believe. It is a whole lot easier to sit on the bike, or swim, or run then to actually stress your muscular system through resistance work. You have just heard from other triathletes how much harder it is to do the P90 workouts then thier typical tri workouts. I think the HTFU phrase has to drop here on ST as it looks like people are picking the easy way out on thier training.

The difference is that you have no research in which to believe.

Put any elite P90X stud in the pool with me or monty, two 50+ geezers, and they'll be crying like a baby inside of 10 minutes. If they haven't drowned by then.

That's great - I'm sure you're a fantastic swimmer. However, if you measure one's fitness by weighing strength, flexibility, and endurance equally, than that Tony Horton dude is probably in better shape than you are. I agree with you that your average triathlete is a fool if he thinks P90X will make him better at S, B, or R, but that doesn't means programs like P90X don't have a lot of value if your goal is overall fitness. I've done multiple ironmans, ultras, 5K+ open water swims et al where all I've focused on is my endurance fitness. But combining P90X with a meager 5-10 hours/week of my normal endurance workouts has made me feel better than I ever have before...it's like a light bulb has gone off in my head - wow,there really is a lot of value to strength training. I'm not delusional enough to think I could match my PR in any endurance event right now, but I could care less because I feel so damn good. Not to mention, my wife actually digs my upper body. She could give 2 rips about my mile splits or 10K pool sessions, but damn if she doesn't keep talking about my new biceps and lats. Oh yeah, and all those other activities that I love to do, surfing and skiing especially...the change in performance has been profound. So care to spend a week with me in Vail this winter or in Hatteras on the water next summer? We'll see whose crying then.

I was responding to the absurd claim that triathlete workouts are not stressful or as hard as these P90X workouts, not the definition of "fitness." Fitness is a measure of an organism's adaptation to its environment. My environment doesn't need flexibility or much strength, yet I am fit for what I do (triathlons and "life"). I'm guessing that Tony Horton (whoever that is) is not as fit as am I in my environment.

I agree with you that something like P90X is probably excellent for achieving their definition of fitness, and that most people would consider those adherents to be more "fit" than typical triathletes.

As for your wife: arms are for show, legs are for go. :-)

I'd love to ski with you for a week in Vail. I prefer glades. I've skied Washington (Crystal Mtn, etc.), Utah (Park City, Alta, Snowbird), Colorado (Snowmass, Ajax, Keystone, A-Basin, Breckenridge, Copper), New Mexico (Taos), Wyoming (Jackson Hole), New England (Okemo, Jay Peak, Killington, etc.), and Austria (St. Anton, etc.). I, the wife and the two kids are free over the holidays: PM me your address in Vail and we'll join you. Hope you have room :-)

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

Re: P90X = Very Cool [klehner] [ In reply to ]

Dec 15, 10 6:34

Post #110 of 145 (6197 views)

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

Lets face it. everyone picks the research they want to believe. It is a whole lot easier to sit on the bike, or swim, or run then to actually stress your muscular system through resistance work. You have just heard from other triathletes how much harder it is to do the P90 workouts then thier typical tri workouts. I think the HTFU phrase has to drop here on ST as it looks like people are picking the easy way out on thier training.

The difference is that you have no research in which to believe.

Put any elite P90X stud in the pool with me or monty, two 50+ geezers, and they'll be crying like a baby inside of 10 minutes. If they haven't drowned by then.

That's great - I'm sure you're a fantastic swimmer. However, if you measure one's fitness by weighing strength, flexibility, and endurance equally, than that Tony Horton dude is probably in better shape than you are. I agree with you that your average triathlete is a fool if he thinks P90X will make him better at S, B, or R, but that doesn't means programs like P90X don't have a lot of value if your goal is overall fitness. I've done multiple ironmans, ultras, 5K+ open water swims et al where all I've focused on is my endurance fitness. But combining P90X with a meager 5-10 hours/week of my normal endurance workouts has made me feel better than I ever have before...it's like a light bulb has gone off in my head - wow,there really is a lot of value to strength training. I'm not delusional enough to think I could match my PR in any endurance event right now, but I could care less because I feel so damn good. Not to mention, my wife actually digs my upper body. She could give 2 rips about my mile splits or 10K pool sessions, but damn if she doesn't keep talking about my new biceps and lats. Oh yeah, and all those other activities that I love to do, surfing and skiing especially...the change in performance has been profound. So care to spend a week with me in Vail this winter or in Hatteras on the water next summer? We'll see whose crying then.

I was responding to the absurd claim that triathlete workouts are not stressful or as hard as these P90X workouts, not the definition of "fitness." Fitness is a measure of an organism's adaptation to its environment. My environment doesn't need flexibility or much strength, yet I am fit for what I do (triathlons and "life"). I'm guessing that Tony Horton (whoever that is) is not as fit as am I in my environment.

I agree with you that something like P90X is probably excellent for achieving their definition of fitness, and that most people would consider those adherents to be more "fit" than typical triathletes.

OK - then I think we basically agree. I got the sense from your posts that you were discounting the benefits of strength training in general, not just as a training mechanism for SBR. If that's not your position, I apologize. I absolutely agree that the average triathlete with 10-20 hours/week at his disposal should spend those 10-20 hours on his legs, bike, or in the pool if his goal is to go as fast as he can. No arguments there. That's simply not my goal anymore and I'm loving the results of adding strength training to my regimine.

In Reply To:

As for your wife: arms are for show, legs are for go. :-)

Can't argue with that.

In Reply To:

I'd love to ski with you for a week in Vail. I prefer glades. I've skied Washington (Crystal Mtn, etc.), Utah (Park City, Alta, Snowbird), Colorado (Snowmass, Ajax, Keystone, A-Basin, Breckenridge, Copper), New Mexico (Taos), Wyoming (Jackson Hole), New England (Okemo, Jay Peak, Killington, etc.), and Austria (St. Anton, etc.). I, the wife and the two kids are free over the holidays: PM me your address in Vail and we'll join you. Hope you have room :-)

My god, I wish I had an "address" in Vail...right coaster here. If I'd did, I'd happily invite you. No sir, we have a condo rented over the kid's spring break - unfortunately, there won't be any extra room! Looking forward to it, but we'll be back in Utah next winter - can't beat the Alta/Deer Valley 1-2 punch for the skiing snobs like me.

Last edited by: jepvb: Dec 15, 10 6:44

Re: P90X = Very Cool [yme] [ In reply to ]

Dec 15, 10 7:39

Post #111 of 145 (6151 views)

"It is a whole lot easier to sit on the bike, or swim, or run then to actually stress your muscular system through resistance work."

It sounds like you might need to re-evaluate how hard you are training the SBR and start adding some sessions where you are not comfortable and it is not easy to sit on the bike, swim, or run.

Re: P90X = Very Cool [klehner] [ In reply to ]

Dec 15, 10 8:01

Post #112 of 145 (6121 views)

Dave Scott does have an exercise physiology degree. :)

Years ago ('80's) I remember reading where one of his routine workouts was running ~ 8 miles, working out at the gym and then running back home......

KLG

Re: P90X = Very Cool [TRI] [ In reply to ]

Dec 15, 10 8:03

Post #113 of 145 (6120 views)

Does P90X have specific routines dedicated to plyometrics?

Re: P90X = Very Cool [Rufus T.] [ In reply to ]

Dec 15, 10 8:19

Post #114 of 145 (6096 views)

When is enough, enough?

___________________________________________________
I'm not a complete idiot, some of the parts are missing.

Re: P90X = Very Cool [Physiojoe925] [ In reply to ]

Dec 15, 10 9:04

Post #115 of 145 (6056 views)

In Reply To:

If you want a direct comparison between my workouts and yours, go to the gym and then join me on my 3 hour trainer ride this morning with long tempo at 85% FTP.

I know those 3 hours won't "actually stress [my] muscular system," but it sure will make me a hell of a lot faster :)

-Physiojoe

If those 3 hours don't stress your "muscular system" what is being stressed?

Re: P90X = Very Cool [TH3_FRB] [ In reply to ]

Dec 15, 10 9:24

Post #116 of 145 (6037 views)

Does P90X have specific routines dedicated to plyometrics?

Yes, once a week there is a Plyometric session. P90X has 3 phases. Each Phase is broken down into 3 hard weeks followed by 1 easy week. Now depending on how you want to workout, P90X can be further broken down into 3 types of workouts (Classic, Doubles or Lean). I am currently doing the Classic.

Phase 1 of the Classic for the 1st 3 weeks looks something like this
Chest & Back, Ab Ripper X
Plyometrics
Shoulders & Arms, Ab Ripper X
Yoga X
Legs & Back, Ab Ripper X
Kenpo X
Rest or X Stretch

You are focusing on ab work 4 times a week (3 ab ripper sessions + 1 Yoga belly session)
You are using weights 3 times a week (many of the weight sessions however only involve body weight)
You are focusing on serious stretching 2 times a week, plus 2 times a week your doing a lot of ballistic type moves/stretches (Plyometrics & Kenpo)
Every workout consists of warm-up and warm-down stretching.
The longest workout is Yoga X (1:30:00) followed by days that you do the Ab Rippers (1:10:00 - 1:15:00)

So for those na sayers, this is a fantastic overall workout for the body. Most uninformed people think P90X is all about weight lifting and getting huge, it is not. P90X is a total body workout. It works on core, flexibility, strength, balance and many other things that may be lacking in a traditional swim, bike, run routine.

Most people that I have seen who have completed the program have lost weight. For many the weight loss has been dramatic (15+ pounds). Now loosing 10-15lbs is huge in terms of race performance. I have seen a ton of triathletes (Not Pros or Top Age Groupers), who could easily loose more weight to help their performance. I have also seen these same triathletes spend big $ to drop a few ounces or two on their equipment. Now a lot of these same athletes are already doing the swim, bike, run thing and for whatever reason haven't dropped the weight (diet, not training hard enough, not spending enough time training....).

P90X makes it pretty easy to loose the weight. Stick to the program and you will loose body fat, gain muscle and in most cases loose weight. If nothing else you will look great in the end. For those who are concerned with getting too much muscle, do the Lean version of the program where you are only working with weights 2 times a week. During those weight sessions do high reps.

What I really like about P90X is you are constantly working you body out in a different way each day. You learn pretty quickly what your weaknesses are and over the weeks, you can see real improvements. While repetition is definitely a major factor in Triathlon or any sport, utilizing different muscles really helps keep the body from getting injured. That is one of the reasons I prefer to trail run over running on the roads. You utilize many more muscle groups, which in turn, IMO helps to keep the body injury free.

Winter time is a perfect time to do P90X. Many triathletes seem to pack on the pounds during the winter months and P90X will resolve that. Would I suggest doing all of the P90X videos during race season? Probably not. I do think the Yoga X, X Stretch, Ab Ripper and Kenpo X would be fantastic routines to do.

Re: P90X = Very Cool [TRI] [ In reply to ]

Dec 15, 10 10:12

Post #117 of 145 (6009 views)

In Reply To:

So for those na sayers, this is a fantastic overall workout for the body. Most uninformed people think P90X is all about weight lifting and getting huge, it is not. P90X is a total body workout. It works on core, flexibility, strength, balance and many other things that may be lacking in a traditional swim, bike, run routine.

How do you know when your core is strong enough? If 5 hrs a week of P90x is good for your core, why not 10 hrs a week to make your core even stronger? What if your core is already strong enough like mine?

Re: P90X = Very Cool [TRI] [ In reply to ]

Dec 15, 10 10:21

Post #118 of 145 (5998 views)

I'd rather not have my weight loose. Seems like it'd jiggle when I run.

Re: P90X = Very Cool [gregf83] [ In reply to ]

Dec 15, 10 10:45

Post #119 of 145 (5976 views)

How do you know when your core is strong enough? If 5 hrs a week of P90x is good for your core, why not 10 hrs a week to make your core even stronger? What if your core is already strong enough like mine?

How do you know your bike is strong enough? How do you know your run is strong enough? How do you know your swim is strong enough?
If you are getting beat by your competition then maybe your swim, bike, run, core, flexibility, strength or what ever is not good enough. Maybe you will never be good enough.

Tell you what. If you can get through 15 minutes of the ab ripper (its only 15 minutes by the way) and don't have to stop on any of the exercises, then you probably have a pretty strong core and abs to boot. If you have never done it before, you probably will not last through the 1st 3 routine.

Re: P90X = Very Cool [TRI] [ In reply to ]

Dec 15, 10 10:57

Post #120 of 145 (5960 views)

You didn't answer my questions.

Regarding the sbr, they are all easily measureable and I'm not fast enough so I keep training.

I don't particularly enjoy core exercises and have no interest in entering core strength competitions so I don't see the benefit in increasing core work endlessly.

Re: P90X = Very Cool [TRI] [ In reply to ]

Dec 15, 10 10:59

Post #121 of 145 (5962 views)

In Reply To:

How do you know when your core is strong enough? If 5 hrs a week of P90x is good for your core, why not 10 hrs a week to make your core even stronger? What if your core is already strong enough like mine?

How do you know your bike is strong enough? How do you know your run is strong enough? How do you know your swim is strong enough?
If you are getting beat by your competition then maybe your swim, bike, run, core, flexibility, strength or what ever is not good enough. Maybe you will never be good enough.

Tell you what. If you can get through 15 minutes of the ab ripper (its only 15 minutes by the way) and don't have to stop on any of the exercises, then you probably have a pretty strong core and abs to boot. If you have never done it before, you probably will not last through the 1st 3 routine.

I think you missed his point, namely "How do you know your "core strength" is limiting your performance, and thus you should sacrifice some S/B/R time for some "core strength" time?"

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

Re: P90X = Very Cool [klehner] [ In reply to ]

Dec 15, 10 11:12

Post #122 of 145 (5946 views)

How about they just make core strength its own sport and stop bothering others?

Re: P90X = Very Cool [JollyRogers] [ In reply to ]

Dec 15, 10 11:21

Post #123 of 145 (5932 views)

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

If you want a direct comparison between my workouts and yours, go to the gym and then join me on my 3 hour trainer ride this morning with long tempo at 85% FTP.

I know those 3 hours won't "actually stress [my] muscular system," but it sure will make me a hell of a lot faster :)

-Physiojoe

If those 3 hours don't stress your "muscular system" what is being stressed?

My cardiorespiratory system silly! The primary reason I could not hold 250 watts for 3 hours today (like when I am race fit) is because my heart and mitochondria, etc are not to that level yet.

It doesn't have to do with my muscles, in the strength sense, because my 5 sec power, squatting ability, etc etc does not change throughout that period of getting fitter- probably because those things are related to PCr and not glycolysis, beta oxidation, etc

-Physiojoe

-Physiojoe
Instagram: @thephysiojoe
Cycling coach, Elite racer on Wooster Bikewerks p/b Wootown Bagels

Re: P90X = Very Cool [Sausagetail] [ In reply to ]

Dec 15, 10 11:23

Post #124 of 145 (5929 views)

In Reply To:

How about they just make core strength its own sport and stop bothering others?

Possibly the most astute post in this thread.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

Re: P90X = Very Cool [Physiojoe925] [ In reply to ]

Dec 15, 10 11:39

Post #125 of 145 (5907 views)

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

In Reply To:

If you want a direct comparison between my workouts and yours, go to the gym and then join me on my 3 hour trainer ride this morning with long tempo at 85% FTP.

I know those 3 hours won't "actually stress [my] muscular system," but it sure will make me a hell of a lot faster :)

-Physiojoe

If those 3 hours don't stress your "muscular system" what is being stressed?

My cardiorespiratory system silly! The primary reason I could not hold 250 watts for 3 hours today (like when I am race fit) is because my heart and mitochondria, etc are not to that level yet.

It doesn't have to do with my muscles, in the strength sense, because my 5 sec power, squatting ability, etc etc does not change throughout that period of getting fitter- probably because those things are related to PCr and not glycolysis, beta oxidation, etc

-Physiojoe

Well that and your legs are too weak to push harder longer, maybe a little strength work might help you out a little bit. ;o)

Our Partners

transition-DOT-area-AT-slowtwitch-DOT-com

Advertise with us

©1999-2024 Slowtwitch, Inc., and Slowtwitch.com
Reproduction of material from any Slowtwitch.com page
without written permission is strictly prohibited.