Klehner,

I would take the advice of Scott, Tinley, Allen over most exercise physiologists.

Flexibility is certainly a limiting factor in swimming, getting in a better aero position on the bike and providing a good and efficient gate in running.

You most certainly use your core in the swim, while maintaining your areo position on the bike and maintaining good form on the run.

An athlete who is good in triathlon who is not flexible and doesn't have a strong core, will perform even better if they have both. Also they will probably reduce the chance of injury.

Having a stronger core will allow you to maintain your form longer (swim, bike, run). That alone should allow for better times.

I stepped into this farther than I wanted last year when I was new to ST.

I have seen so many threads come on here pertaining to strength training/crossfit.

Same thing every time.

You can take everything to extremes, but, IN MY OPINION, strength training focused on your core, chest, lats, and legs can be a valuable tool for triathlon. It is not something where you want to get big, but you can get stronger.

At times of the year when you are really training hard, you are going to lose some muscle tissue, why not work on keeping it developed during other parts of the year?

Mine too! haha

Anyone can get in a good aero position, assuming normal health and range of motion. The only restrictions occur when the hip angle gets so small that the thighs hit the chest, and that's not a flexibiliity issue. Staying there for more than a couple of minutes doesn't require any more flexibility or strength: it requires simple endurance. The force requirements are really small, just like pedaling itself. Being massively strong won't help, and may hinder endurance performance (as has been pointed out, again, ad nauseum).

Here's a challenge for you. I never lift. I do swim a lot, though. I'll wager, without any objective evidence behind it, that I can beat any similarly sized lifter type in a contest of lat pulldowns, where the winner is the one who can move more total weight in ten minutes. I'll put up my endurance against strength any day.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Time between pictures? And besides training I assume you must have changed diet aswell?

"So where did 'kdw' go after 'nicetri' posted the pictures of his change in body shape?"

What do you think nicetri's pictures proved that I needed to reply to? All I did in this thread was ask why the OP thought that many triathletes should do P90X. He posted his (mostly faulty) assumptions, so there isn't much to say.

I've learned that you don't convince the strength training crowd that it doesn't help them improve as triathletes, so why try?

Lifter type? what the heck is that?, people are talking about strenght training. Being stronger with the same amount of muscle mass will always make you faster in every sport there is, what is so hard to understand about that. I think some in the ST crowd here need to wake up and smell the roses a little bit.

Funny, cuz I "only" ride my bike, which accomplishes the body fat loss perfectly. As far as eating right goes, I'm not sure why you would need a series of videos for that. I just eat veggies :)

Your "after" picture looks like a chubby version of me, without any weight training. No pullups required, and I don't even swim! (although I can do 6-8 pullups untrained, whenever I want).

-Physiojoe

edit: nice cat though. she looks like mine, great cat. who I adopted when she was pregnant a few years ago.

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-Physiojoe
Instagram: @thephysiojoe
Cycling coach, Elite racer on Wooster Bikewerks p/b Wootown Bagels

A lifter-type is someone who targets particular muscles through, say, P90X or lifting.

If you believe that " Being stronger with the same amount of muscle mass will always make you faster in every sport there is," then you've got some serious self-education to do.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

"Being stronger with the same amount of muscle mass will always make you faster in every sport there is, what is so hard to understand about that."

I could post links to scientific studies showing this isn't the case, but you would accuse me of resorting to trickery.

So when you are pushing down or pulling up the pedals on a bike it is better to have weak muscles then?

http://www.bikeforums.net/...wfull=1#post11223774

Actually if you're about 10 you have enough strength in your muscles to be a pro cyclist.... so i doubt your muscles are too "weak"

'Actually if you're about 10 you have enough strength in your muscles to be a pro cyclist.... so i doubt your muscles are too "weak"'

So when the 'Pros' are averaging 450watts in a short TT, a 10 year old would be able to keep up to them, OK then, keep telling yourself that.

"So when you are pushing down or pulling up the pedals on a bike it is better to have weak muscles then? "

Nope.

If you cant connect the dots, it's the aerobic capacity that is huge in the pros- their CO, SV, mito density, blah blah blah is what maintains the 450 watts, not strength.

If someone could not pedal a bike at 450 watts for a few seconds then maybe you would have a point?

-Physiojoe

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-Physiojoe
Instagram: @thephysiojoe
Cycling coach, Elite racer on Wooster Bikewerks p/b Wootown Bagels

i think he was aiming at the STRENTH being available in the 10year old..... the endurance to hold that stregth is what has improved over time.

the force to move your own (lean) body mass is fairly small thanks to the linkages/leverages of your bicycle.

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Tim

Look, you can either continue being obtuse, or you can educate yourself. Frankly, I hope you are in M40-44 and continue to lift. A lot.

From one of Mike Prevost's posts the other day:

----------snip----------------

J Sports Med Phys Fitness. 1998 Sep;38(3):201-7.Correlations between peak power output, muscular strength and cycle time trial performance in triathletes. Bentley DJ, Wilson GJ, Davie AJ, Zhou S.

School of Exercise Science and Sport Management, Southern Cross University,
Lismore, NSW, Australia.

OBJECTIVE: To examine the relationship between the peak power output (Wmax),
peak oxygen uptake (VO2peak), lower limb muscular strength and cycling time (CT)
during a short course triathlon race. EXPERIMENTAL DESIGN: The study involved a
cross-sectional analysis involving both physiological and biomechanical
variables. SETTING: Testing was performed at the exercise physiology and
biomechanics laboratory, School of Exercise Science and Sport Management,
Southern Cross University, Lismore, Australia. PARTICIPANTS: Ten male
triathletes who had been endurance cycle training for a minimum of 12 months
prior to the commencement of the study. MEASURES: Subjects completed a maximal
incremental cycle test as well as a series of muscular function tests including
a 6-s cycle test, a concentric isoinertial squat jump as well as an isokinetic
leg extension test performed at velocities of 60 degrees (s-1, 120 degrees (s-1
and 180 degrees.s-1. In addition, each subject also participated in a triathlon
race of distance 1.5 km swim, 40 km cycle and 10 km run. RESULTS: A significant
correlation existed between CT and absolute VO2 peak and Wmax. However, no
significant correlations were found between the results of the muscular function
tests and the incremental cycle test as well, as CT during the triathlon race.
CONCLUSIONS: Wmax and WDmax are useful variables in assessing cycle performance in triathletes. However, the importance of muscular strength of the lower limbs may be minimal in overall cycle performance during a short course triathlon
race.


Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1999 Jun;31(6):886-91.The effects of strength training on endurance performance and muscle characteristics. Bishop D, Jenkins DG, Mackinnon LT, McEniery M, Carey MF.

Department of Human Movement Studies, The University of Queensland, Brisbane,
Australia. dbishop@wais.org.au

PURPOSE: The purpose of this study was to determine the effects of resistance
training on endurance performance and selected muscle characteristics of female
cyclists. METHODS: Twenty-one endurance-trained, female cyclists, aged 18-42 yr,
were randomly assigned to either a resistance training (RT; N = 14) or a control
group (CON; N = 7). Resistance training (2X x wk(-1)) consisted of five sets to
failure (2-8 RM) of parallel squats for 12 wk. Before and immediately after the
resistance-training period, all subjects completed an incremental cycle test to
allow determination of both their lactate threshold (LT) and peak oxygen
consumption VO2). In addition, endurance performance was assessed by average
power output during a 1-h cycle test (OHT), and leg strength was measured by
recording the subject's one repetition maximum (1 RM) concentric squat. Before
and after the 12-wk training program, resting muscle was sampled by needle
biopsy from m. vastus lateralis and analyzed for fiber type diameter, fiber type
percentage, and the activities of 2-oxoglutarate dehydrogenase and
phosphofructokinase. RESULTS: After the resistance training program, there was a
significant increase in 1 RM concentric squat strength for RT (35.9%) but not
for CON (3.7%) (P < 0.05). However, there were no significant changes in OHT
performance, LT, VO2, muscle fiber characteristics, or enzyme activities in
either group (P > 0.05). CONCLUSION: The present data suggest that increased leg
strength does not improve cycle endurance performance in endurance-trained,
female cyclists.

If by "short" you mean about 3-5 seconds, then yes, a 10 year old would be able to do that. In fact, I'd put my money on the 10 year old, given that both he and the pro are putting out the same wattage (your 450W) and the 10 year old likely has a lower CdA. :-)

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"Go yell at an M&M"

I will cause I'm right.

Surely there must be better research then something conducted 11-12 years ago. And did you see the phrase 'may be minimal'?, means that they are not even sure of the research. Also, 'minimal' actually means some amount, not nothing, and every little bit helps, unless you are not sweating the details of trying to improve overall.

Ask yourself why the best 4000m pursuiters look more like skinny Tour riders than they do massive track sprinters. The latter are "stronger" than any Pro Tour sprinter who, in turn, are far stronger than the TTers. It's because "strength" has nothing to do with speed beyond tens of seconds.

Do you understand that it takes less than 50 pounds of force to pedal at 400W, a force that healthy ten year olds can muster?

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Just because it was done 10 years ago doesn't make it wrong. But good job ignoring the second study that concluded "CONCLUSION: The present data suggest that increased leg
strength does not improve cycle endurance performance in endurance-trained,
female cyclists. "

Suggest? That's the best they can do? No wonder nobody believes these studies.

:-)

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Maybe since its only females we should ignore the whole study.