when was the last time in a major ITU race and/or olympics when somebody was able to break on the bike and/or swim and win? If it never happens then likely it won't happen and will make things boring from a spectator perspective where they could just show the last 5k and forego the swim/bike coverage entirely. Just because a sport is difficult and exciting if you partecipate, it doesn't mean it's spectator friendly...

This is why mountain stages at the tdf are more fun to watch than the flat stages you already know will end up as a bunch sprint, because in the mountain stages you know that at any point somebody might make a move; both the olympic triathlons were basically 'let's warm up for 1.5k/40k/5k and then let's see who can run the fastest 5k' which is not exciting to watch at all. I understand why people would race that way, but it is not what people want to see.

Maybe if the distances were more like 6k/80k/10k there would be more of an incentive to not end up as a 'let's all hang together for 90% of the race because it's too risky to break' every time

I agree with the OP but I feel that his wording is wrong.

The swim and bike DO matter, it's just that they are really lame in this format. The mentality in ITU/Olympic racing is to sit in until the very end. It's not the type of triathlon racing that really embodies the history of this great race. That's my opinion, everyone else is free to have theirs.

The ITU athletes are certainly the cream of the crop. The draft legal format just allows for it to become a lame game of tactics. Non draft racing is exciting to me. It's quite often in non draft races that someone just picks it up and makes a break early in the bike to hold on for the rest of the day while being chased frantically. It's more like watching the big mountain stages in the TDF and biting your nails waiting for the break to happen just to see if it can stick. Sastre was the perfect example of this.

ITU racing, especially the big races, is like watching 2 dozen versions of Cadel Evans sitting in the pack and not taking any risks until they ABSOLUTELY have to. I'm sure breaks have gone unchecked in ITU racing as well, but it's never happened in any of the races I've ever been able to catch.

It's my personal opinion that the races are just boring to watch. The athleticism is there, just obsured by the tactics.

I agree to a certain extent. Better yet, head out and watch the nearest ITU race and watch the strategy unfold. I am a much bigger fan of ITU after watching the Hy Vee Triathlon the past two years. And I watched the event live last night without commentary (other than the Slowtwitch thread). I thought it was awesome.

Of course, I still haven't figured out why Matt Reed didn't make more attempts at a breakaway on the bike. He does not currently have the run speed to hang with the rest of those guys. He needed to get away on the bike to have a chance. Of course, maybe his job (like the Canadians other than Whitfield) was to work for Hunter by trying to burn the legs of the other fast runners so Hunter would have a chance on the run.....

My complaint is that it doesn't demand a fantastic swim, it actually penalizes it.

I think I was watching some of Hector's HyVee footage. I think there was one woman
who came out at least 30 seconds ahead of the swim pack. The only reason that happened
was because there was a swim bonus prize. Otherwise, there is no reason for them
to do that because they're going to get swallowed up by the pack on the bike. So
you can't have a bad swim, but there is no advantage to having a great swim.

So, you have to:

1) Stay with the pack on the swim
2) Stay with the pack on the bike
3) Win the run.

There doesn't seem to be any other way to win the race.

#1 and #2 are hard, no doubt. But in all the races I've seen (which is admittedly only
a handful) it seems like there are always at least 10 people who can accomplish that.

-Jot

Dont stray to far into the US reference, I am actually born and raised in Europe, and yes I like watching soccer.

My point remains the same.

There are 2 different versions of the same event, draft vs non draft.

No one can argue that a draft event offers the same level of watchability when there is no incentive for tactical moves in the first 80 minutes even though the racers have very different relative strengths.

For instance, even if you are the best swimmer in the group, you stay with the pack. It may save some nergy relative to your ability but it doesnt make interesting TV

"Yes Jim, it is so thrilling to watch Hamish McFadden save energy for the run by drafting of the German"

What do you guys suppose a power file looks like on the bike from this particular event in Beijing?

It seems similar to long cycling road races, where the run in an ITU race would compare to the final climb in a road race that is otherwise flat. Without more teammates, it doesn't make much sense to have an exciting bike leg.

Did you watch the race last night? I found it very exciting to watch the dynamics of the bike close up. There were multiple little breaks that would go off and get swallowed up. Then the break at the end there that they let get away (because the contenders didnt feel threatened)
The best part for me was watching how Colin Jenkins was really leading the group. He was always communicating to the pack telling people when to let the guys sit out front a little longer before reeling them in, turning around looking for Simon. It made things exciting, thats for sure.

I don't think it is fair to bust this OP's chops for his own personal belief that he is bored with that style of racing. As someone who has watched tri's since the 80's (well, really I just went to watch the Bud Light/Mrs T's in Chicago until '94 and then I started racing), I STILL am bored by the ITU format as well. Probably because I'm not much of a runner :-) (although I can appreciate those who do run well).

...and yes...I tape the TdF every year and scan through the 3-4 hours in about 20 minutes to see if there were any accidents or anything noteworthy - then I watch the last couple of kilometers, the last climb, etc.

...and yes...I will watch the 5000 and 10000 meter runs (and any other events longer than a couple of minutes) during the Olympics and note when they start, go do other things, then when I hear the bell lap, I'll go back in and watch the finish (same with long swim events).

It doesn't mean people don't understand it, it just means we need more action to keep us glued to the event. The weird twist with non drafting racing (although we don't get to watch many of those "live" and when Kona is online - it is on in the background all day) is that I can engage myself in keeping track how much of a lead someone has off the bike, compute catch up times, etc. that just dont' happen when I attend and/or try and watch ITU events.

As far as the guy who posted the cricket (yes, we don't see enough of it to try and understand it), table tennis, etc...trust me - I'd watch table tennis over billiards, fishing, and bowling ANY day of the week if we actually televised it more. However, Americans just have a difficult time watching "recreational" sports played at a professional level (although I still don't understand the watching golf on tv except it assures people of low volume and an easy way to doze off for the Saturday/Sunday afternoon nap)

:-)

Your defense is based on those not being good enough to keep up, but you miss the much bigger point which is that it is meaningless to be better in the swim and bike other than as a means of saving energy.

I have been to several non ITU events and to watch Emma Snowsill enter T2 30 secs behind the leader and close the gap to half by the run out just appeals more to me than "here comes the pack, there goes the pack"

Agreed.

And an Olympian from 2004 told me that the two versions of triathlon aren't even the same sport.

clm

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

Steve, I just love these american comments. I wonder how many of them have ever done a draft legal race.
Most would probably get their butts kicked since they may not be able to swim worth beans.
If you give me a choice to watch on IM or an ITU race, will take the ITU race anyday.
And, if you give me the choice of racing an ITU race or an IM race, again, will take the ITU race any day.
But, these type of threads happen all the time on ST. Each race has its appeal to different groupings of folks.
Bottom line, if you cannot swim, do not even show up for a draft legal race.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Wouldnt it have been more exciting if some of those breaks actually were meaningful?

Actually how about this format....1.5 K swim 5 K run 20K bike 5K run 20K bike

Now that would be exciting, cause there would be breakup after the first 5K run, then regrouping on the second bike with more attacks, then another 5K run, and then closing it with the runners trying to stay away with the sprinters reeling guys in for a TdF style sprint finish....with 4 transitions, it would make things even more exciting.

This would be mega TV friendly

Athens Olympics at least. Hamish Carter, Bevan Docherty, Sven Reider all medalled after breaking away on the bike with Andrew Johns.

Or even swim, run, bike.

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"your horse is too high" - tigerchik

See, that's what I'm saying. You've watched one race--you don't get it. It doesn't make for exciting TV . . . for you.

Breaks do happen. Breaks do win ITU races. Breaks and surges also crack certain people even when they are ultimately unsuccessful. You'd have to know who's who, and who's doing what to see what's going on. Some people are cruising, sitting in, and waiting. Others are holding on for dear life. Some can run hard from the front, others have finishing kicks and try to control the pace to their advantage. Some have a chance to win if the pace stays steady. Others respond better to surges and uneven races. The best racers are working each other over in subtle ways the entire race. But you'd have to know who's who to see that.

Your question was why bother with the swim/bike and you complained that it made for boring TV. Everyone here who understands the sport is trying to explain something to you. The swim/bike does matter, and you'll know why once you take the time to learn ITU-style racing from the ground up. And unless/until you do, the sport will remain boring to watch.

In the end, I could give a shit less if you love it or hate it. It just strikes me as silly for you to think you are making interesting observations concerning an event about which you clearly have zero understanding.

Out of interest, what do you think the response would be on ST if Kona went something like this: all the main contenders get out of T1 pretty close together, then on the bike a couple of euro bikers - say Bjorn and Stadler - manage to get away and come out with a small but potentially sustainable lead, say 10 minutes. The chasing pack are led by a young racer - say Jordan Rapp - and manage to hunt down and pass the bikers but alas, around mile 15 Rapp fades and drops from the leading group. Coming into the last 5 miles we've still got a group of 4 runners in contention including a former champion, Faris, the current no 1, Macca, and a lesser-known athlete called Jonnyo. Macca's the fastest runner of the group but he just can't shake the others. With a mile to go, Faris drops off the pace and we think he's out of it, but then in the last 200 yards he comes back with a surge and hits the front. Macca's now been dropped and surely Faris is home and dry, but then from nowhere Jonnyo comes storming through to take the win.

I'm betting that the thread on that one would eclipse the Sergio thread and the Hotties thread combined. If you understand the format and know the racers, that's pretty much what happened today in Beijing.

Make it a team sport, and it would be pretty sweet. Most of the attempts at breaking away were quite pathetic, with the exception of the German guy who bridged up to the other two guys. Even an experienced guy like Matt Reed just spent time at the front pulling around the peloton. If you are going to do work, you need to get a gap between you and the guys behind you. A breakaway should be initiated as a move to win. It should consist of a big acceleration from about 7-10th wheel to ensure there is a big differential in speed between the indiviual and the group. Simply upping the pace from 1st position or from 2nd or 3rd wheel will never work. I'm not surprised Reed fell apart. He was rode a tactically stupid race.

And there are many of us who could give a shit that you feel it's wrong to not "appreciate" it. Take your elitist attitude and shove it. Seems if it's numbers you want, the Iman surge has you totally wrong, but I guess all of those people are too stupid to have found the wonderful nuances of ITU races as you have...

The Olympic/ITU format is what it is. It's not going away, and it's not what the majority of Americans call triathlon.

Whether it's boring or difficult is irrelevant. It's here to stay. The Olympic triathlon gives us exposure and is therefore good for the sport, maybe.

I just wonder if it's worth the money that our federation dumps into it, since it represents less than one percent of us.

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Ray

I do not question the validity of ITU style racing or the strength and fitness of ITU racers. But, I would be more interested in ITU style racing if it had a longer swim combined with a shorter and more technical bike section.

A longer swim should stretch out the swim pack a little more. Then, a shorter (and more technical) bike might encourage strong swimmers to try to stay off the front.

In my opinion - a longer the bike section makes it more likely that a pack will ultimately dominate.

Maybe if each section ought to take around 30 minutes to compete the racing would be more"open."

Actually, I guess I am kinda describing XTERRA off-road tri racing.

David K

It wound up being an exciting race at the end but I pretty much agree with you. I think that the problem is that we're looking at it as the same sport as non-drafting tri when it really isn't. We want it to be an event where the best overall swimmer, cyclist, and runner that day wins but that's not necessarily going to be the case. If you really think about it, the problem is that we want "triathlon" to be a sport that is theoretically a time trial event but we also want it to be a mass start event. The two just don't mesh that well when you have a decent amount of competitors of similar speed and we get all the problems/issues with drafting.

All of those guys are tremendous cyclists as you've really got to be strong to stay with the lead pack, but their relative strengths on the bike are never going to have their full impact in the draft-legal format. You have to just accept it for what it is and appreciate it as a different type of event.

Wouldnt it have been more exciting if some of those breaks actually were meaningful?\\

Just like bike racing, and all the early breaks that often stay out in front for 90% of the race, you don't know if it is going to be meaningful like you put it, until late in the race, or it is over. Every break is exciting, and until caught, you do not know it's outcome. I have seen many ITU breaks stick, the most exciting was worlds in NZ a few years ago. Lots of breaks like this race that got cuaght, and eventual 2 man break, where the gold and bronze came from. 9 out of 10 breaks in the TDF do not suceed, but it keeps us hinged on our seats, and we root for them. What if Frondano was in that break, you all would have been saying the same thing, he can never hang in the run, and Javier will run him down. Nothing is assured in a race, that is why they have it..

I find both styles of racing very exciting, and to discount ITU style as a 10k is stupid. IF you lined all those guys up and just ran a 10k, the results would be waaaay different than the eventual outcome. They have trained themselves to such a high level, they make the swim look easier than it is. ITU has evolved, in the old days there were breaks in the swim almost every race, but the cream has risen to the top, and the guys that used to get dropped, swim their asses off to be able to just have a chance after T-1. The bike lookes easier too that it really is, but look at the guys stringing off the back of just a tiny little sprinter climb like there was in this race. And Ligget would say, they are riding on the rivet in the back there. And all this sets up for the final run, it is all course management up to that point, beut getting to that point is not easy. These talented guys train like crazy to just be able to get to that run, and most of them are blown by the time they start it.. They have to throw the dice and take huge risks, and hope that they have something left in the tank. You actually have to think in an ITU race, maybe that is why so many do not get it. It is not so straight foreward, like the just hammer til you finish non drafting formats. That's probably it now that I think about it, every sport where you have to think when you watch, is often not appreciated by those that just do not get it..

It's why I cannot watch Cricket or Rugby, and other countries cannot watch our football or baseball.. YOu really have to understand a complicated sport to appreciate it, sorry you don't get it. It really is exciting all the way through, if you know what to look for.....

Actually, over the past decade, over half of the total championship races (Olympics and Worlds, men's and women's) had medals that came from breakaways. Women's worlds in 1999 (Loretta Harrop), men's and women's worlds in 2000 (Nicki Hackett and Olivier Marceau), men's worlds in 2001 (Peter Robertson), women's worlds in 2002 (Leanda Cave), men's and women's worlds in 2003 (Robertson & Emma Snowsill), Women's world's in 2004 (Sheila Taormina), both of the 2004 Olympic races, 2005 women's worlds (Snowsill again), etc., etc.

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Lew

Wasn't it a breakaway on the bike in Athens 2004 that decided the lead pack on the run? There's plenty of time for a breakaway, it just didn't happen to be a significant break this year. Just like the TDF peloton won't let a strong rider break, the three who got away in Beijing weren't really a threat, so they could go. I think we're going to see more of the team tactics in ITU races... which I admit is not fun to watch until you know what you're watching-- then it's riveting.

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"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" - R.W Emerson
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