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Re: Ok Fishes, here is the interview we were all waiting for!! [ggeiger] [ In reply to ]
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A couple important things you left out in regards to the watch. You are letting the watch do the mental work(keeping track of laps, pace, etc) that you should be training your brain to do. Second, it’s the practicing of focus in the workout that goes along with using a pace clock instead of a watch and being able to manage the above plus holding technique together while pushing the pace.

If you want to get the most out of your workouts and see bigger gains at the end of the season, leave the watch at home and use the pace clock.

Hope this helps.

Tim

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com
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Re: Ok Fishes, here is the interview we were all waiting for!! [domingjm] [ In reply to ]
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domingjm wrote:
ripple wrote:
domingjm wrote:
ripple wrote:
domingjm wrote:
I just take issue with the general assertion, in any context, that "real XX don't XX". It's elitist and frankly unimaginative.

Well, except it's not elitist in this case because real swimmers don't wear a watch to track their swim workouts. They just don't. It's as close to a fact as an opinion can get.


Let's talk about this Rip. I'm pretty sure your loose definition of a real swimmer revolves around their thoughts on swimming watches. No?

And your ability to rip off a 400 IM :)


Two strikes against me.
It's all in fun. I think a lot of us morphed into triathlon from another sport, and so we can get protective of our sport.

For the life of me, I don't understand the Garmin in the pool and probably never will. I also don't understand going to the pool, and swimming 4200y straight, except for hitting the lap button on said Garmin, which I see a lot of triathletes do. I'd be ready to shoot myself if the workout wasn't structured.. and all freestyle (gag).
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Re: Ok Fishes, here is the interview we were all waiting for!! [The59Swim] [ In reply to ]
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The59Swim wrote:
domingjm wrote:
Finally, as I responded above, I don't know in what capacity Lucy Charles relies on her watch, but she's often pictured swimming with it. Are you really prepared to tell her she's not a real swimmer?


Most of the photos and video I see of Lucy Charles has her swimming without a watch - there's maybe two photos total on her instagram/website where she's wearing one for a swim.

In addition to that - virtually no competitive swimmer (training for and competing in primarily swimming) would wear a watch in practice or competition - if a watch offered any benefit to them, don't you think they'd make use of it?

The lack of watch use boils down to three points for me as to why "real" swimmers don't wear a watch when doing lap swimming (open water is another story)
  • Lack of useful metrics/superiority vs. pace clock and memory - this has been touched on by a bunch of people in this thread, but there's both a lack of reliability in the current technology, as well as an inferiority to the simple technique of looking at the pace clock. In general, there are going to be one or two main sets where swimmers care about having their pace - Sibbersen's 10x400m for instance, and using the wall clock, combined with having a good feel for the swim, gives more useful metrics than analysing the watch data a few hours later (e.g. - my third and fourth 400s were slower because I sandbagged the middle 200m to try and save some juice for the last 100m, I can correct this for my 5th and 6th 400s and I'll remember this the next time I do the set. Looking at the splits hours later I would have no idea why those were slower, because I never made the connection at the time). I also don't care about my pace time for warmup, warmdown, and technical work, I don't need metrics for 20-80% of my practice depending on what's up for the day.
  • Annoyance - this is probably personal preference, but starting and stopping the watch on every interval is a bit tedious. This is especially true if you're doing 20x100 and barely coming in with 5s to breathe, collect yourself and go, takes away from resting and collecting yourself for the next rep.
  • Interference with stroke - part of this could be coupled with annoyance, and smacking the lane line or other swimmers sucks if that happens to you, but I'd argue foremost that the watch can introduce an imbalance in your stroke as you compensate for having an extra weight and geometry on one arm and not the other. I know watches are light, but if you're taking 1000s of strokes a week, for weeks on end, there's going to be an effect.
Even if the stroke interference is minor, coupled with the annoyance and lack of demonstrated superiority vs. a pace clock and memory, why would I add the inconvenience?

I predict that you won't be able to demonstrate that's anything but your convincingly-worded opinion. Everyone's opinion counts here though.

As for your three definitional relations between real swimmers and watches, I'm clearly not a real swimmer (but we already knew that) because the only minutia in all those words that is logical to me is regarding the sets with really minimal rest. I honestly think you're just making the rest up. I mean, lack of reliability? Dude, it's a watch and it keeps an electronic record. Smacking the lane line and interfering with your stroke? If you can run while wearing shoes, I think you can probably swim while wearing a watch. Maybe you should give it another shot.

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Re: Ok Fishes, here is the interview we were all waiting for!! [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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SnappingT wrote:
A couple important things you left out in regards to the watch. You are letting the watch do the mental work(keeping track of laps, pace, etc) that you should be training your brain to do. Second, it’s the practicing of focus in the workout that goes along with using a pace clock instead of a watch and being able to manage the above plus holding technique together while pushing the pace.

If you want to get the most out of your workouts and see bigger gains at the end of the season, leave the watch at home and use the pace clock.

Hope this helps.

Tim

Thanks for the reply Tim. That said, I did not ever suggest not using the pace clock, as I have been trained in that from the 1960's, so have a great feel and many years of experience on that. That was never a suggestion from me.

That said, most of us are triathletes, and do not and frankly should not train like most swimmers except for certain times of the year where masters programs are helping us build pure speed. We do not have a lane full of other swimmers of similar caliber helping us along to consistency and not fading. As stated in many of the posts, often times the perception and pace are not in alignment in those that swim as infrequently as "real" swimmers so the watch is a true help. I can do test sets and see if my pace held so I can see if speed or endurance is my concern. I can see if my perceived change in pace is actual in taking a look later, and by how much. I do a lot of descending pace work and while perception gets confused with fatigue, the numbers tell the story so I can see that I was either tired, going out too fast, overtrained or a variety of other factors and make adjustments later in the week. Oddly, the same people who slam watch use while swimming would be abhorred if the power meter they used went out, or the watch to time intervals at the track died. Just like Heart rate monitors, watches, GPS, and power meters, all told can have a place. If we're called out a s being not "real" swimmers, then I'm fine with that. Been there; done that and moved on.....

Gary Geiger
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Re: Ok Fishes, here is the interview we were all waiting for!! [ripple] [ In reply to ]
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ripple wrote:
domingjm wrote:
ripple wrote:
domingjm wrote:
ripple wrote:
domingjm wrote:
I just take issue with the general assertion, in any context, that "real XX don't XX". It's elitist and frankly unimaginative.

Well, except it's not elitist in this case because real swimmers don't wear a watch to track their swim workouts. They just don't. It's as close to a fact as an opinion can get.


Let's talk about this Rip. I'm pretty sure your loose definition of a real swimmer revolves around their thoughts on swimming watches. No?

And your ability to rip off a 400 IM :)


Two strikes against me.

It's all in fun. I think a lot of us morphed into triathlon from another sport, and so we can get protective of our sport.

For the life of me, I don't understand the Garmin in the pool and probably never will. I also don't understand going to the pool, and swimming 4200y straight, except for hitting the lap button on said Garmin, which I see a lot of triathletes do. I'd be ready to shoot myself if the workout wasn't structured.. and all freestyle (gag).

I totally understand that. It just hurts my feelings because I want to come up to the real swimmers treehouse sometimes too.

I'm kidding. I don't. I hate swimming even more than my miserable life ;-)

---------------------------------------------------------------

https://connect.garmin.com/modern/profile/domingjm
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Re: Ok Fishes, here is the interview we were all waiting for!! [ggeiger] [ In reply to ]
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ggeiger wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
I guess another thing is that I don't really want to know or care about every split in the workout. I find I'm using the pace clock less and less, and going more on feel than ever before. The nature of a lot of my swims (and I haven' been in much for the last couple of months, taking a little break til the holidays for mental sanity) is that I do a lot of builds and sets where the pace changes mid-length (eg sprinters game). Stroke count per length, pace per length, or any other metrics that a watch could capture wouldn't tell me anything about how well I executed the objectives of that set. And because of these types of sets, the watch could indicate that you are improving when in fact you are regressing, or vice versa.

If that motivates you, great. I've thought about getting a watch many times, and it always comes back to "what will I do differently if I had this data?" My answer has always been "nothing". So I have yet to adopt.

Funny how this same logic would never be accepted by the masses here if it were to be applied to the other sports we do. We bitch and moan how accurate our different power meters are and how closely the different ones are, what our CDA is and the rolling resistance of our tires, how fast that last set of 400 meter repeats on the track were, and yet we throw away that argument in the pool. Comical. Wouldn't you like to know what your splits were for a set of 200's with varying 50's hard (example, 1st 50 then 2nd, and on...) descending? Perceived effort does not tell the story as you become fatigued. You cannot see fading while you are in the middle of an interval. Yes, you are one of the few examples, but most cannot.

I would venture to guess that we have a VERY small number of "real swimmers" here on this forum, and with good reason.....we are triathletes. We don't run and train like runners, we don't train like cyclists and we are not swimmers. Technology has changed that immensely. Real swimmers would never wear jammers to train (only speedos and drag suits) either, but that is not our world.

Now, back to Monty's actual amazement of the work set.......

I’d love to know those splits, in real time. An hour later, I don’t care anymore.

And 10x4 holding 4:40 is pretty studly. Especially for a dinosaur like him.

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Re: Ok Fishes, here is the interview we were all waiting for!! [ggeiger] [ In reply to ]
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No worries. I'm not calling out anyone for anything. I'm just sharing my point of view and experience. And what I've seen is that triathletes who rely on a watch in workouts don't progress as quickly as those who just use the pace clock.

And from a coaching perspective, triathletes rely on equipment for feedback too often when they should be developing that skill without the equipment.

Tim

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com
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Re: Ok Fishes, here is the interview we were all waiting for!! [domingjm] [ In reply to ]
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domingjm wrote:
The59Swim wrote:
domingjm wrote:
Finally, as I responded above, I don't know in what capacity Lucy Charles relies on her watch, but she's often pictured swimming with it. Are you really prepared to tell her she's not a real swimmer?


Most of the photos and video I see of Lucy Charles has her swimming without a watch - there's maybe two photos total on her instagram/website where she's wearing one for a swim.

In addition to that - virtually no competitive swimmer (training for and competing in primarily swimming) would wear a watch in practice or competition - if a watch offered any benefit to them, don't you think they'd make use of it?


I predict that you won't be able to demonstrate that's anything but your convincingly-worded opinion. Everyone's opinion counts here though.

As for your three definitional relations between real swimmers and watches, I'm clearly not a real swimmer (but we already knew that) because the only minutia in all those words that is logical to me is regarding the sets with really minimal rest. I honestly think you're just making the rest up. I mean, lack of reliability? Dude, it's a watch and it keeps an electronic record. Smacking the lane line and interfering with your stroke? If you can run while wearing shoes, I think you can probably swim while wearing a watch. Maybe you should give it another shot.

For the first point, I worded it a bit poorly, but my point is that if you went and took a sampling of all of the different levels of practice, from kids first getting into it, to club swimming, to highly competitive D1 swimmer, to Olympians, to Master's swimmers, you'd find maybe one thousandth of a percentage of swimmers wearing a watch, and almost certainly none of them would be at the pointy end of the spear. Again, my opinion and maybe hard to verify, but I'd say it's almost certainly true.

For the reliability - my watch (forerunner 735xt) claims to automatically count my laps/distance - it has never once been right and is often hilariously wrong. Having an accurate match of distance to pace is pretty important for reliable metrics, no? For telling time, you're right, it's a watch, it does a great job.

For the smacking the lane line - just compiling some of the complaints that other people have made. That said, plenty of people have smacked me by accident during swim (damn backstrokers) - I'd be even less happy if they were wearing a watch when they did so haha.
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Re: Ok Fishes, here is the interview we were all waiting for!! [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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SnappingT wrote:
No worries. I'm not calling out anyone for anything. I'm just sharing my point of view and experience. And what I've seen is that triathletes who rely on a watch in workouts don't progress as quickly as those who just use the pace clock.

And from a coaching perspective, triathletes rely on equipment for feedback too often when they should be developing that skill without the equipment.

Tim

As a life long competitive swimmer, I'll agree that for actual swim meet performance and for pure speed in events far shorter than we usually race, I will agree that group training and pace clocks trump. Always use a pace clock, but as little as we swim in comparison, I doubt most have that feel for pace that swimmers do. I've had intervals that feel fast yet aren't and often vice versa. Our feedback and experience is not keen enough for that when swimming solo. Hell, even lanes make a difference, as swimming on the wall versus middle pool and empty or full are huge differences. There will be fluctuations. The great thing about my watch is that when I swim solo, I can concentrate on what I need to, use the pace clock for send off/recovery and later see how my actual stats reflected perception. I'm not advocating using the watch while swimming, but only to see how different paces, efforts and even turnovers affect true speed. I can view stroke count and see how it is reflected in my actual speed and determine what kind of turnover I should gravitate towards. Just as in cycling, I often change cadence to see true results in speed, heart rate and perception.

I guess we'll agree to disagree, but as a former swimmer competitively through college, then a coach, and a triathlete of 35+ years I like to think that I have learned a lot and still will. Pace clocks are a given, but actual results are what matters in our events and the watch truly helps every bit as much as my Powertap.
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Re: Ok Fishes, here is the interview we were all waiting for!! [The59Swim] [ In reply to ]
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The59Swim wrote:
domingjm wrote:
The59Swim wrote:
domingjm wrote:
Finally, as I responded above, I don't know in what capacity Lucy Charles relies on her watch, but she's often pictured swimming with it. Are you really prepared to tell her she's not a real swimmer?


Most of the photos and video I see of Lucy Charles has her swimming without a watch - there's maybe two photos total on her instagram/website where she's wearing one for a swim.

In addition to that - virtually no competitive swimmer (training for and competing in primarily swimming) would wear a watch in practice or competition - if a watch offered any benefit to them, don't you think they'd make use of it?


I predict that you won't be able to demonstrate that's anything but your convincingly-worded opinion. Everyone's opinion counts here though.

As for your three definitional relations between real swimmers and watches, I'm clearly not a real swimmer (but we already knew that) because the only minutia in all those words that is logical to me is regarding the sets with really minimal rest. I honestly think you're just making the rest up. I mean, lack of reliability? Dude, it's a watch and it keeps an electronic record. Smacking the lane line and interfering with your stroke? If you can run while wearing shoes, I think you can probably swim while wearing a watch. Maybe you should give it another shot.


For the first point, I worded it a bit poorly, but my point is that if you went and took a sampling of all of the different levels of practice, from kids first getting into it, to club swimming, to highly competitive D1 swimmer, to Olympians, to Master's swimmers, you'd find maybe one thousandth of a percentage of swimmers wearing a watch, and almost certainly none of them would be at the pointy end of the spear. Again, my opinion and maybe hard to verify, but I'd say it's almost certainly true.

For the reliability - my watch (forerunner 735xt) claims to automatically count my laps/distance - it has never once been right and is often hilariously wrong. Having an accurate match of distance to pace is pretty important for reliable metrics, no? For telling time, you're right, it's a watch, it does a great job.

For the smacking the lane line - just compiling some of the complaints that other people have made. That said, plenty of people have smacked me by accident during swim (damn backstrokers) - I'd be even less happy if they were wearing a watch when they did so haha.

Okay. For perspective, I'm a scientist by profession, and we just don't say things that we can't immediately demonstrate with measurable and repeatable data. We all have opinions, but masquerading them as fact is a habit that everyone should recognize as dangerous. Your 1/1,000% is flagrantly lacking any rigid support whatsoever. With the current US political administration, I'm getting really sensitive about people making shit up because it's their "feeling". So I apologize for beating a dead horse here in this thread, but providing a rigid number without any support is as bad as it gets.

And if your watch is really as bad as you say it is, I would immediately contact Garmin, because that performance is entirely unacceptable. I've been using a 920xt for about 18mos and I can recall only a single instance where it was incorrect in any measure, and that was failing to recognize a flip turn.

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https://connect.garmin.com/modern/profile/domingjm
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Re: Ok Fishes, here is the interview we were all waiting for!! [domingjm] [ In reply to ]
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domingjm wrote:

Okay. For perspective, I'm a scientist by profession, and we just don't say things that we can't immediately demonstrate with measurable and repeatable data. We all have opinions, but masquerading them as fact is a habit that everyone should recognize as dangerous. Your 1/1,000% is flagrantly lacking any rigid support whatsoever. With the current US political administration, I'm getting really sensitive about people making shit up because it's their "feeling". So I apologize for beating a dead horse here in this thread, but providing a rigid number without any support is as bad as it gets.

I'm sorry my triathlon forum post doesn't meet the rigors of peer review /sort of pink
I'll walk back my 1/1000th of a percent comment to "virtually all" that I stated before and start designing the appropriate study parameters and statistical analysis.
I'd still stand by the point that virtually none (haven't checked with every single one) of the elite swimmers and olympians we see in swimming don't practice with a watch.


I get that you like your watch for swimming and have found it useful for pool swims, but I and most swimmers don't. It's a funny conversation that inevitably comes up during tri practices - someone always asks why I take my watch off before practice.
It ultimately boils down to the watch not offering enough benefit to offset the inconvenience.
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Last edited by: windschatten: Oct 24, 18 16:01
Re: Ok Fishes, here is the interview we were all waiting for!! [domingjm] [ In reply to ]
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domingjm wrote:
A paper training log? I take all of my post-exercise notes on my stone tablet written in charcoal. It seems more and more evident that a defining characteristic of a "real swimmer" is being inherently archaic.

point being the watch/garmin/device really wasn't necessary for either of those. Paper or Strava, either works.

For me it's more about efficiency - more kinds of electronics to sync and update and refresh, versus brain 1.0
Brain 1.0 works better for me.
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Re: Ok Fishes, here is the interview we were all waiting for!! [doug in co] [ In reply to ]
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Yesterday at the end of workout swimmer beside me with garmin on asked me how far we had swam. That cracks me up every time.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

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Re: Ok Fishes, here is the interview we were all waiting for!! [windschatten] [ In reply to ]
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windschatten wrote:
ajthomas wrote:
10 x 400's on 5:40 holding 4:40s... yeah that is pretty fast.

The picture of him with his arms raised... that is a huge lung chamber.

For someone keenly aware of the accumulation of heat and how it would impact his swim, he sure was lucky his cap fell off...


Isn’t that littering?
You definitely notice when the cap comes off.
Not that difficult to at least stuff it into your suit.
Yeah, those horrible plastic patches in the ocean.....just unavoidable.

Edit:
Wonder how many watches dot the ocean floor for the first couple hundred meters there.

Whatever, wear your chunky $1K watch, just don’t slice someone with it in a pool that has a policy for watches/jewelry, because that can get costly.

I've been sliced far more often by paddles than watches in all my years (and the ever present non trimmed toenails from the breaststroker). If one gets "whacked" by a watch (or paddle), one of you has a recovery issue on your stroke.
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Re: Ok Fishes, here is the interview we were all waiting for!! [boobooaboo] [ In reply to ]
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boobooaboo wrote:
You've gotten enough answers, but I'm going to echo everything.

Distracting, plus you won't wear one in a race. When I coached masters, I had a "no button" rule. You were welcome to wear your garmin, but you couldn't touch it in workouts. That starts you down a path of being obsessed with "average pace" when downloaded into training peaks.Let me tell you, you might be able to do 42x100m on 1:30 holding 1:10, but how will that translate to an OWS with no breaks? That's why we do test (failure) sets. Also, from a very young age, we learn to use the clock (kids now don't always understand "top" and "bottom" with the advent of digital clocks) and remember our splits. With a properly placed pace clock, I can swim a 1650y/1500m and remember nearly all of my 100 splits, and most of my 50 splits. It's just something "we do."

Each sport has its own quirks, right? In cycling, they are oddly attached to their appearance. In swimming, we don't much embrace technology (maybe the guys at the super pointy/professional end) and do the same workouts that we did in the 80's. We keep it simple...work on technique, throw yardage at it to build fitness, swim often.

Edit: Many of us still wear "swedes" with no padding or anything, and I've been wearing the same pair since high school...a cool $3.75 (plus a few strap replacements) has gotten me through 12 years of swimming, including championship meets.

+1000, the Swedish goggle is the king of goggles!!! Long live the workouts of the 80s!!!


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Ok Fishes, here is the interview we were all waiting for!! [ggeiger] [ In reply to ]
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That’s me. I don’t have the shoulder mobility anymore to have that nice pretty high elbow recovery. It’s nearly as wide as my fly recovery. One of the girls who sometimes shares a lane has a similar wide recovery, we usually bang wrists at least once or twice during a practice.

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Ok Fishes, here is the interview we were all waiting for!! [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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I'm sorry Jason as much as I know you are a swim stud and add good content here, your logic of "we were taught that way as kids.....".

Really? Same logic would totally defy how training for just about any other sport has evolved after youth. Whether people do or do not use a watch seems more a matter of the accepted code vs what is logical or useful. You don't train professional adults the same way you first taught kids. And lets face it most of you swim studs and students were trained from birth and don't know any different (or better....perhaps). Why not use the mythical clock and put a garmin on your writs for tracking.

The logic of every great swimmer who had done x miles knows his splits and times is quite out there. Have you ever done a workout that felt easy and you went fast and one that felt hard and you went slow? Or is swimming different than every other endurance sport?

Sorry - this just feels like some old school swim snobbery. I'm sure I'm pushing water uphill on this.....no pun intended.
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Re: Ok Fishes, here is the interview we were all waiting for!! [TulkasTri] [ In reply to ]
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I'm curious what everyone's technique is when it comes to pressing the button at the wall. When swimming freestyle, you should touch the wall with one arm completely outstretched, with your other arm in the complete opposite position, and your body should be on it's side. When trying to hit the stop button on a watch, both arms are outstretched and your body will be flat in the water.

Triathletes will say "I don't care, all my races are open water."

Only on slowtwitch can we all argue about watches and buttons for 4 pages.

"The person on top of the mountain didn't fall there." - unkown

also rule 5
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Re: Ok Fishes, here is the interview we were all waiting for!! [Canuck1] [ In reply to ]
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Canuck1 wrote:
I'm sorry Jason as much as I know you are a swim stud and add good content here, your logic of "we were taught that way as kids.....".

Really? Same logic would totally defy how training for just about any other sport has evolved after youth. Whether people do or do not use a watch seems more a matter of the accepted code vs what is logical or useful. You don't train professional adults the same way you first taught kids. And lets face it most of you swim studs and students were trained from birth and don't know any different (or better....perhaps). Why not use the mythical clock and put a garmin on your writs for tracking.

The logic of every great swimmer who had done x miles knows his splits and times is quite out there. Have you ever done a workout that felt easy and you went fast and one that felt hard and you went slow? Or is swimming different than every other endurance sport?

Sorry - this just feels like some old school swim snobbery. I'm sure I'm pushing water uphill on this.....no pun intended.


Have you ever done a workout that felt easy and you went fast and one that felt hard and you went slow?


Sure, plenty of times. My internal clock is generally re-calibrated on the first repeat. That's another thing (now that I think of it) that I don't think a swim watch can tell you, was that an easy 1:09 that I just did or was it a hard struggle to a 1:09? If you are waiting until after the workout to look at data, I'm not sure you would remember those details. Processing the data in real time gives you that feedback, immediately.

logic of "we were taught that way as kids.....".

Really? Same logic would totally defy how training for just about any other sport has evolved after youth.



When I'm saying that we were taught that way as kids, I'm saying that we've developed that ability to read a clock as second nature. It's not really saying that its superior just because we were taught that way, but that it is just the most convenient method for most of us to track times during practice. It's just a habit now. I'm sure there are plenty of habits that you've retained since you were a kid, some good, some bad, some inconsequential. For example, when I get dressed in the morning I put my socks on before my pants, Does it matter? no, but that's what I usually do. However, when I get dressed in the locker room after swimming I put my pants on before my socks. That one does matter, so I don't get my socks wet from the floor.

It's not really swim snobbery (at least not from me). Personally, I don't care what you wear in the pool, as long as it doesn't mess up the flow of the lane.

But enough on this, it seems like some on here are getting way too bent out of shape because someone said that real swimmers don't wear watches. So effin what? Real Triathletes (tm) aren't real swimmers, or real cyclists, or real runners. They are real triathletes, balancing three different disciplines, which is impressive in and of itself. Why not be happy with that, rather than trying to prove that you're somehow as good as or know better than the single sport athletes. I'm not a real triathlete, at all, terrible runner here relative to my swim and bike It would be nice if I were better at it, but unfortunately, I don't think it is meant to be. I'll keep trying though. /endrant

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Ok Fishes, here is the interview we were all waiting for!! [The59Swim] [ In reply to ]
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In fact, here she is race morning, sans watch.

Here's my workout from this morning. It was written on a paper and stuck to a kickboard, ye olde fashioned way. It's not online or anything. I remember it, and my splits on the important bits. Here's hoping it doesn't give away my identity.

Long warm up, followed by focused sprint set with active recovery

2x200 @ 3:15, swim
2x150 @ 3:00, kick
2x150 @ 2:20, swim
2x100 @ 2:10, kick
2x100 @ 1:35, swim
2x50 @ 1:00, kick
2x50 @ :50, swim

4x sprint set, all swim
2x50 @ :50
2x50 @ :45
2x25 @ :30, build
2x50 @ :40
4x25 @ :25, build

20s rest

3x50 @ 2:15, sprint
R 1-2 from a push
R 3-4 from blocks
Splits
R1 - :28 low, :27 high, :28 low
R2 - :29 high, :27 low, :28 low
R3 - :27 low, :26 mid, :26 mid
R4 - :26 mid, :25 high, :26 mid

"The person on top of the mountain didn't fall there." - unkown

also rule 5
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Re: Ok Fishes, here is the interview we were all waiting for!! [domingjm] [ In reply to ]
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domingjm wrote:

Okay. For perspective, I'm a scientist by profession, and we just don't say things that we can't immediately demonstrate with measurable and repeatable data. We all have opinions, but masquerading them as fact is a habit that everyone should recognize as dangerous.


I mostly agree with this. But I also think you should recognize that there is a consensus among experts here. Take that for what it is worth.

But in your call for hard data, here you go. A month ago I swam with a watch. I wear a watch occasionally. On longer sets I can live with the imprecision. And as much as we joke the reason I am most likely to wear it is for Strava.

The data can be found below. The pool was SCM, not LCM. Here is the list of problems: THe

1) I did 2 600s warm up. Each 600 was 100 freestyle / 25 kick / 25 back x 4. The first 600 the data capture was good. The second 600 the data missed 50M. I get the watch misses kicking. I wish it was consistent. Miss all of it or none of it.

Next I did 8 x 100's on 1:26 (dont ask) with a goal to hold 1:14 on all of them. It went really well. So well that with 2 left I decided to add a 100 and drop down to 1:13. My times - without question - were 1:14 on the first 6, 1:13 on the last 3.

Yet my watch shows me says I went a 1:15 on two of them (I didn't) and has me at 1:14.9 on # 8 which was most certainly a 1:13

Because the watch records 25M splits, I can look a little deeper. Let's compare two of the 100's:

Number 6 / Number 7
19.9 / 19.2
18.6 / 18.8
19.1 / 18.4
17.9 / 17.3
1:15.4 / 1:13.6

According to the watch I was faster on the 2nd 25 on the slower one. That is wrong. In fact I went back and that is the fastest 2nd 25 for all the repeats. So not only is the data wrong, it isn't even user error (which is what I would have assumed). Another thing that is wrong is the first 25 split. This isn't a surprise because of the a fore mentioned problems of coordinating the start with a streamline. ALl the first 25 splits are wrong. I think that 19.9 was wrong by a lot. I doubt I did a single lead off 25 slower than 19.0. There is not consistency in the errors so the data is just...useless.

Now I think you want to make the argument that the data is good enough. A few 1-2% errors here or there don't mean that much. I coached for one season collegiality. I have swam competitively for the last 36 years. The difference between what I actually did and what the watch recorded is the difference between knowing the previous 6 week swim build had been effective vs ineffective (For those who remember, or care: I committed to doing a lot more race pace efforts about two months ago).

This discussion started because the guy who broke the KONA record by .35 seconds per 100M thinks these slight inaccuracies matter. So perhaps we can frame this discussion like this: A real swimmer doesn't rely on a watch because a real swimmer thinks .35 seconds per 100M matters.



laps Distance Time Best Pace 24 600 08:09.6 08:09.6 -- 0 0 00:30.8 22 550 08:22.9 17:03 -- 0 0 00:37.6 4 100 01:14.4 18:55 -- 0 0 00:11.6 4 100 01:14.5 20:21 -- 0 0 00:11.4 4 100 01:14.8 21:47 -- 0 0 00:11.3 4 100 01:14.4 23:13 -- 0 0 00:11.1 4 100 01:15.0 24:39:00 -- 0 0 00:11.4 4 100 01:15.4 26:06:00 -- 0 0 00:10.3 4 100 01:13.6 27:30:00 -- 0 0 00:12.6 4 100 01:14.9 28:58:00 -- 0 0 00:11.2 4 100 01:14.1 30:23:00 -- 0 0 00:20.1 12 300 04:12.1 34:55:00
Last edited by: ajthomas: Oct 25, 18 8:12
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Re: Ok Fishes, here is the interview we were all waiting for!! [ajthomas] [ In reply to ]
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Your data is what I've seen all the time from my athletes. It's funny, they are so tied to their watch. We'll do an 100 best and I'll have it on my stop watch or the pace clock and call it out when they come in. My personal athletes will come back and look at the garmin to tell me the split. I always get a laugh from that, and then it's slower. Like I said, I dont really look at any of there data when they swim with me. I'll love over splits from athletes who aren't swimming with me, but I dont look at any metrics....I will look at the metric if I'm trying to determine an issue, but I dont ever look at SWOLF or stroke rate etc. I look specificially at the splits they swim for the set I give them.

Brooks Doughtie
-USAT Level II
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Re: Ok Fishes, here is the interview we were all waiting for!! [The59Swim] [ In reply to ]
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The59Swim wrote:
domingjm wrote:


Okay. For perspective, I'm a scientist by profession, and we just don't say things that we can't immediately demonstrate with measurable and repeatable data. We all have opinions, but masquerading them as fact is a habit that everyone should recognize as dangerous. Your 1/1,000% is flagrantly lacking any rigid support whatsoever. With the current US political administration, I'm getting really sensitive about people making shit up because it's their "feeling". So I apologize for beating a dead horse here in this thread, but providing a rigid number without any support is as bad as it gets.


I'm sorry my triathlon forum post doesn't meet the rigors of peer review /sort of pink
I'll walk back my 1/1000th of a percent comment to "virtually all" that I stated before and start designing the appropriate study parameters and statistical analysis.
I'd still stand by the point that virtually none (haven't checked with every single one) of the elite swimmers and olympians we see in swimming don't practice with a watch.


I get that you like your watch for swimming and have found it useful for pool swims, but I and most swimmers don't. It's a funny conversation that inevitably comes up during tri practices - someone always asks why I take my watch off before practice.
It ultimately boils down to the watch not offering enough benefit to offset the inconvenience.


Are you really okay, in any context, stating something as fact, when you actually have no evidence to suggest that you're correct? You're telling people things that they may believe and that will influence their decisions. That's not okay in any medium. If I could make any wish come true (outside of winning the lottery), it would be for people to appreciate that concept.

---------------------------------------------------------------

https://connect.garmin.com/modern/profile/domingjm

Edit: And for what it's worth, I'm sure you're right that many proficient swimmers don't use, and see no value in, a swim tracker.
Last edited by: domingjm: Oct 25, 18 9:36
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Re: Ok Fishes, here is the interview we were all waiting for!! [boobooaboo] [ In reply to ]
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boobooaboo wrote:
I'm curious what everyone's technique is when it comes to pressing the button at the wall. When swimming freestyle, you should touch the wall with one arm completely outstretched, with your other arm in the complete opposite position, and your body should be on it's side. When trying to hit the stop button on a watch, both arms are outstretched and your body will be flat in the water.

Triathletes will say "I don't care, all my races are open water."


Yeah, if you finish a rep like the photo below, and the watch is on your left hand, how quickly and consistently are you going to get it stopped? Add that delay to the delay from the start button push to the drop-and-push for a proper sendoff streamline, and you have a fairly significant error. Add in variability between finishing on your left or right, and in the deep end or the shallow end, and that makes the data pretty corse.

Some folks here are saying +/- a fraction of a second doesn't matter. Sometimes, that's true. But when that's true, the pace clock will suffice. When you get out towards the pointy end of your personal performance potential curve, fractions of a second can start to mean a lot. When I'm doing 25's at 100 race pace, 0.20s the difference between it being a worthwhile effort or not. So i leapfrogged the wristwatch/swim-watch for something more repeatable and accurate.





"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
Last edited by: gary p: Oct 25, 18 16:39
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