Ah. Ok. Well life has its way with us sometimes. Glad it's not injury induced.

Another usrpt 50s day. Goal was more than 12x 43s 50s before my first fail.

Wu: 325 straight, 25 easy back to start

Ms: 30x50 usrpt @ 42s failed at #20, #27... Did #30 at 40s flat.

Cd: 100ez.

Target pace for the 50s was 43s. I barely managed 10x at that pace on Tuesday. Today, my rhythm seemed to settle on 41/42s per 50. Around #12 I was ready for a fail... But, I kept tagging the wall on pace at 42s.

Monty told me in June I could call myself a swimmer when I can do 20x50 @40s. I'm getting closer.

whats your set up Tom?
SCY? SCM? or LCM?
And how much rest are you taking when you aim to do your 50s on 40sec?

unsolicited advice:
when you start each 50.
Take 2 or 3 strokes without the breath movement (and breath obv) in there and set your rhythm then. Use that time for a more complete first EXHALE and see if that doesnt shave a solid second off each 50.
... just a free suggestion.
Good luck on your quest!

dave

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http://www.theundergroundcoach.com

Thanks David. Pool is scy. It's a usrpt set so it's 20s rest.

Funny you mention taking a few stokes without a breath. I was having the same thought last night mid session. I was thinking coming into the wall. But, my counter thought was that my purpose is to build speed for OD races. So, gaming the 50s to reach a number didn't seem consistent with that goal.

Then again I may feel differently when I'm at 40.5. :)

Ha.. thanks for the response and good luck on your quest. Focused efforts are great.
As for "gaming the system" (so to speak), I would encourage you to look at it from a performance perspective and dealing w velocity.
The two moments for our highest velocity potential is when we dive in and when we push off the walls. So in this context you're really learning how to manage and sustain already created velocity. It can (and will) translate into the ability to then swim faster. But putting out more effort in yards 40 through 50 to "speed up" is not the reality.
So use that speed on your push offs to set a faster rhythm and more importantly to take the time to more completely exhale so your first inhale is also more complete and your blood chemistry stays more balanced for longer (and when you're moving faster!)
There are always interesting "cultural" questions brought up in these forum chats (the swimmer watch wearing one for example)... but in this cultural discussion about using the environment, IE walls, turns I think is actually more beneficial and more critical for those doing open water! From the perspective of being aware of and using your environment. Its great training to practice that! If in open water, for example, the surf is up and the marker buoys are hard to see, but that house/tree/mountain off in the distance is an environmental advantage to site off... would you use that? or stick to only using the buoys?
I hope that makes sense.
This isn't meant at all to be negative on what you're doing. I just want to help. Happy to discuss further as well.
good luck!

daved

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http://www.theundergroundcoach.com

6.6 mi run 1:00:05, 450 yd swim (Straight, kick final 25)

14/15

---

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

No worries, I didn't take it negatively at all! I appreciate any input I can get from you crazy fast guys! I kinda wondered if you meant something more like that after I sent my response. I expected to get corrected.

I do get what you mean. I hadn't thought about it from the "stroke" point of view....but, as I've been swimming more (almost every day) I find that I pay more attention to the streamline coming off the walls. My shoulders are pretty tight (compromised is the description on my bike-fit report :-). So, I'm sure its not all that great of a streamline, but its the mental focus on feeling the water resistance, and adjusting position to minimize it.

I suppose its a similar concept to swimming full-stroke with fins? You get that 10% boost in pace from the fins, which magnifies all those little bits of drag from extra movement and subtle position changes.

Its also funny that you mention rhythm. I was a drummer for 20 years...so, I easily get stuck in a rhythm. Once I get a cadence set, I find it really hard to slow the cadence down, even intentionally. Last night was a perfect example of that. I got stuck in the rhythm of those 42s. Somewhere around #15, I was begging to come in off-pace so I could get a break. I may have even been a little lazy with my last stroke :-). But, every touch was still on-pace, which was really "disappointing".

Thank you, very much. Seriously.

Drill day...

WU:
200ez

MS (all 30s rest) :
3x50 (30s) fast

2x100 paddles
100 free (1:37)

2x100 fins
100 free (1:32)

2x100 l/r + r/l paddle/fin
100 free (1:34)

3x50 (30s) fast

CD:
2x100ez
------
1600scy

Pretty happy with the full-stroke free pace. Wasn't trying to go fast, concentrating on maintaining the feelings from the previous drill.

11/15, 22 Kscy

I tried it tonight. Needs work. Mostly I need to learn to manage the "not breathing"...i need to slow the exhale so I'm still exhaling after the breakout. I'm used to timing that with the first stroke.

But, I did manage to pull off a 39s 50y the one time I kinda managed to get it sorta right.

Thanks for trying it!! And then providing feedback. That’s cool.
My response would be this:
While I think you’re just using the words “not breathing” to describe the time period of pushing off and taking two or three strokes before your inhale... I just want to be clear that I was not saying you’re not breathing. In fact I’m encouraging you to breath and one piece of the activity of breathing is the exhale and almost 100% of aquatic breathing issues are exhale based. So... use that time, as you then went on to say... to exhale more slowly. Time that out. Practice that timing on land. You’re a drummer... count out that beat as you push off and practice that exhale on land. It will make it easier in the water.
Again. All of us will make sure we try to get the air in. But if we haven’t emptied .. that breath in is like the last few drops at the gas station when you try to top off your tank!!
Awesome fun. Thanks Tom!
Daved

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http://www.theundergroundcoach.com

Yep, understood. My issue is that I completed the exhale (ie, no more air to push out), just as I take my first stroke. So, taking a full stroke cycle with empty lungs creates that sense of desperation to GET SOME AIR IN THERE!!! I need to slow the exhale down so that I can still be exhaling during that first cycle.

Today I left the stroke cycle out of the equation and just focused on extending the streamline and slowing the exhale down. Typically, I exhale normally coming off the wall, and take a relatively short streamline. I normally breakout with the flags still in front, and finish my first cycle as I pass the flags. So, today I just exhaled more slowly, and held the streamline an extra "second or so" and took my first stroke as I crossed under the flags.

USRPT 100s day.

WU: 200ez
2x50 (:30) fast
2x100 singlearm 25L/25R/swim

MS: 23x100 usrpt @ 1:38 pace, failed at: #14, #20, #23

CD: 200ez
-------------
2800 scy

Started out the 100s around 1:36-37 pace. Kinda wondered around a bit finding the right pace early on. Eventually I settled in at 1:38 around #6, and held that pace for the remainder of the set. Last week, I did this same set at 1:41/2 pace, but I did all 30 with no failures. On 11/1 I did this set at 1:43 pace and failed at #10, pretty similar to this week just 5s slower. So, looks like I'm averaging about 2s/100y pace-improvement per week.

I think this is the first time I've ever swum 5x in a row. Planning on swimming 400s tomorrow. And, I may try and swim Sun-Wed to make up for T-giving vacation. If I manage that, it would make 10 days in a row.

12/16, 25kscy

Weekly recap:

Monday was a 200 based day, around 3400 scy with a main set of:
4x200 with a rolling 50 fasy
8x 25 kick
3x 150 rolling 50 fast
6x25 kick
4x100 rolling 25 fast
4x25 kick

Lots of build, or speed up / slow down within each interval this day, and that repeated acceleration really fatigued the shoulders

Tuesday was again a little more than 3000, working on rhythm for butterfly. Per the advice of Monty and others on here I've really worked over the last couple weeks to reduce the 'glide' phase. For the first time I occasionally get in a flow where it's relatively effortless, but that only lasts for 4-5 strokes right now. Still, coming along

Wednesday I was off, Thursday was more fly work, with a little breaststroke thrown in the warmup sets. Main set was 3 times through:
8x25 (1/2 lap fast, then finish easy)
2x25 one-armed fly (R/L)
50 fly drill
50 fly fast
50 kick
50 breast fast

And that will be my last time in the pool for about a month, since I broke my collarbone on the bike ride home yesterday (accident was 100% my fault). Such a bummer, was starting to see some small technique improvements add up in the non-freestyle events. I feel very lucky considering the crash could have been much worse - thank goodness I live in Minneapolis where drivers usually treat cyclists like human beings and give lots of space.

If the ultimate goal is to get better on open water, I bet that innate rhythm would really help! I find it difficult to keep a consistent stroke / pace outside. I wonder, do your metronome-like sets indoors translate to solid OW pacing?

No. But, I think that's because of poor race specific prep. There are two sides of the innate rhythm. My stroke rhythm is stuck in my head, and I *will* swim at that rhythm. If that is the *right* rhythm, then cool. But, if its too fast...not so much. Swimming fast 50s and fast 100s develops that fast rhythm. But, if you can't hold that fast rhythm for 1500m...starting out that fast is not a good thing.

That was my issue in the only OD race I did this year. I didn't do any RACE-PACE work going into that race, it was all fast 100s---training that's good for a fast 400-800...but, not quite OD race specific. So, my cadence was too fast...and it took about 800m to get that sorted into something sustainable for the back-half. I realized that after the race, and started doing lots of 400s in preparation for my A-race. But, unfortunately that got cancelled 4 days out. So, I don't know how much those 400s might have improved my pacing.

I've also learned that swim improvement for me is incompatible with significant run/bike volume. So, I really stagnated on the swim once the run/bike really reached their peak (mostly the run @35+ mpw).

5 mi run + 725 yd swim

7 x 100 on 1:30
25 kick

15/16

---

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

1200 free in 16:16
400IM kick
5x200IMon 3:15
300/200/100 pull on 1:30 base
8x50 on 50 hold 37’s
100 warmdown
3700 total

400s day.

Wu: 100ez

Ms
5x400 (:30) 7:07/6:58/54/56/55
3x100 (:30) 1:39/35/33

Cd:100ez

2500scy


Arms are pretty spent. 6 days in a row and 9 out of the last 10. Most swimming I've ever done.

Added an extra 400 this week, averaged 6:58 for the set. Last week I averaged 7:09 for 4x with a best time of 7:01. Also added 3x100 at the end. Honestly I thought I did 5x400 last week so I added the 3x100 to stretch it out a bit, but didn't have enough gas for another full 400.

So, still gaining about 2s/100 per week.

13/17, 27 Kscy.

Had a nice long 4100 yard ocean swim in 58 minutes. Water is 64°. The amazing clarity we had last week is gone. At some places, the silt was so thick, I couldn’t see the shallow reefs until I nearly ran head-on into them. I pushed it a little harder and expected to be a little faster. It must have been the little reroutes around those reefs.

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Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.

yesterday 14 mi bike
today 4.1 mi run, 775 yd swim, then got to babysit a 4 month old for an hour!

swim was straight, kick the last 25

16/18; 11,400 yds and have surpassed last month's measly volume !

---

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Whew! Made it to the pool. Sunday it's only. Open from 1 to 5.

WU:
200ez

MS (all 30s rest) :
3x50 (30s) fast

2x100 paddles
100 free (1:37)

2x100 fins
100 free (1:32)

2x100 l/r + r/l paddle/fin
100 free (1:34)

1250scy

14/18, 28kscy

3700 yards today, in the ocean, of course. Water is much clearer at Shaw’s Cove, rather than Woods Cove. Still holding at 64°.

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Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.

Sorry not been on the fish thread much lately, but I have been swimming other than this week which was only 17km. Right now I have to swim 3800m every day rest of the year other than Dec 25 and Dec 26 when the pool is closed to meet my year target of 1200km. I can't afford to get sick or miss a day in the pool.

Yesterday I did my first swim meet since being run over by the bus in June.

100m fly was 3 seconds slower than last spring
200m fly was 7 seconds slower
200m IM was 2 seconds faster
100m IM was 2 seconds faster

The crazy thing is that I swam all four events in the span of 45 minutes and the 200IM was 2 heats after the 200 fly, so I think I have upside on the IM. I really need to focus on my physio to get more strength back in my bashed and squashed right arm. I really noticed the lack of strength when I was trying to go full throttle in the fly. I hope to take close to 8 seconds off the above 100's and 15 seconds off the 200's by May of next year. I THINK that more than half of this is arm strength/rehab. The rest is learning how to swim like you guys and girls do.

Tom,
Where are you connecting to the rhythm?
daved

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http://www.theundergroundcoach.com

Lots of different parts have a rhythm, as well as the rhythm of the sequence of events. Which part I'm most connected to depends on what I'm focusing on.

But, if I had to pick one thing, I think it would be the kick. Well... Specifically The kick that is timed with the opposite hand entry, hip rotation, and strong part of the pull on the same side.

If you had to pick "one thing" it would be...? (and I quote) (haha)

Specifically The kick that is timed with the opposite hand entry, hip rotation, and strong part of the pull on the same side.

That to me sounds like 4 places.
What I mean to say is be more specific with where you tap into the created rhythm.
Ideally I would recommend (as you might guess) the breath rhythm. 3ct exhale then inhale or similar...
Then next in line would be hip rotation rhythm
Followed by shoulder rotation
and finally something external like hands hitting the water or exiting the water and kick feedback.

Im making two points here quite poorly.
Let me try to clarify.
Be specific with your connection to feedback based on rhythm. Then look for that rhythm to be rounded and continuous (hence starting with axial skeleton)
and
Do this ONE feedback loop at a time. There may be a single location that is easier to become aware of... but i think you're trying to sequence the whole thing and it simply is too much.
(just trying to make it easier for you)

Hope that makes sense.

daved

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http://www.theundergroundcoach.com

Hmm....I'm going to try to respond to you in reverse:


I'm not sure I understand your rationale for it "being too much"? I'm swimming faster than I ever have, and am improving at a pretty good clip (2-3s per 100y per week) for 1500-2000 yard sets ranging in repeat distance of 50-400 yards on short rest. All while at the same time, my SPL id decreasing. I'm able to reach farther, and finish more completely without fishtailing or getting fatigued. I really have ZERO complaints about how things are going right now. I'm not where I want to be, yet....but, I DO feel like I'm moving on the right road.

I'm also not sure I understand what you mean by "trying to sequence the whole thing". Other than the inherent sequence of the act itself, the only real sequencing that I consciously pay attention to is the timing of my kick with opposite hand entry. But, THAT is at the specific direction of my coach based on watching me on-deck....and giving me specific drills to drive that particular timing home. When I get that right, in particular my breathing (left) side, my pace is noticeably improved.

All that said...it is past time to schedule another lesson with Mr. Patten. My last one was about 3 weeks before my last races. I took some time off, but now I'm ahead of where I was at our last session. And, I may be reaching a point (now or very soon) where technique again needs refinement for the next level of speed.