Half the problem with everyone coming away from Kona disappointed is that most triathletes (Pro and Age Group alike) are delusional. They come in with big expectations, big egos and a deluded view of their own ability, then they race and reality hits them but they refuse to recognise this reality and make up a ton of excuses to explain it away.

Just watch the Breakfast with Bob interviews pre race and listen to the pros that are deluding themselves. You bring up the Hoff but he is a prime example, Hoff and TO were talking about getting ready to run 2.40 just because Lange did it the previous year............. you only have to look at the size of them compared to Lange to know that neither of them is running 2.40 in Kona.

Age groupers in general are even worse at deluding themselves, even the very best of them are 45 mins slower than the winner. They're irrelevant to the race but they think they're not.

Having said all this I think that Kona is absolutely awesome! I watched the coverage for 9 hours straight and I was glued to my seat, same every year, I love it! The best athletes in the world going head to head in horrific conditions, most of them blowing up and the strongest few left standing. Whats not to love about that? They can move the WC designation if they like but the best Pro's and AG'ers alike will all still head to Kona for the big dance every year.

you forgot the olympics in your list ;-)
the male start list santorini with sanders , kienle a brownlee , r murray was prob more excitng than the 70.3 worlds this year .
roth is still a major race but since they cut the pro price purse in half the pro field besdies one or 2 headliner each year is not that strong anymore as it used to be. one could argue in the last 5 years frankurt more often than not had a deeper pro field.

I agree with you that it isn't quite on the same level as the other 3 long course events, but it is the next one in line if you are looking for 4 LC majors. Didn't this years #2 at Kona win it in August? Didn't Chrissie win it? Didn't Macca win it? Simon Lessing, Greg Welch, Luc Van Lierde, and a pile of greats on the women's side have all found it worthy of their time. "Losers" at ITU World Long Course Champs include Crowie, T.O., Rinny, and heaps of other notables. It is competitive. If you are looking for 4 majors at the long course distance, then Kona, Roth, IM70.3 WC and ITU LC Worlds is probably the right answer.

Brooks, you silly boy, have you not learned anything yet??? Lionel won the ITU LC Worlds this year and on this forum there was a thread proclaiming that Lionel is now a "World Champion"; therefore, the ITU LC Worlds must be considered a "major" race in tri from here on out.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Well just agree to disagree on the "competiveness" on ITU LC World's. Want to make a quick $100....tell me in 50 guesses who won 2016 world's men's race.....In the last 5 years itu world's hasnt even gotten on the pro side 25 field averages. Sure some big names have raced it. Would LS have raced it if it was in Denmark this year...i'll wager no. Would Andy Potts have raced it if it wasn't in Canada? LC World's is a very cherry picking race imo based on the start lists for these guys. Which is sorta my point. It's an after thought.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Hell, I looked it up and never heard of him...although I recognized #3. But on the other hand, when it comes to Short Course worlds, if ain't Gomez or a Brownlee, then I'm out of guesses.

Age groupers in general are even worse at deluding themselves, even the very best of them are 45 mins slower than the winner. They're irrelevant to the race but they think they're not.


When I was in Kona this year, as we normally, do, we ride as little on the Queen-K as possible - so much other great cycling in the area.

However, when I was riding on the stretch out to Mauna Lani, I was paying very close attention to a few things. That first 90 min to two hours on the bike is when, so many deep-six themselves.

IMH has a deep and competitive swim field. To hang in here many have to over-swim, and I am sure many do. Then it's onto the bike other than the climb up Palani, the bike course is all very gradual ups and downs all the way out to Mauna Lani and even until the left turn to Kawahaie. You are pumped up, well tapered, feeling good, and wanting to again, like the swim, hang in there on the bike. It's often calm early, sometimes a bit of a tail wind. Despite all this, I'm sure, that on a number of the gradual, false flat rises, many are way-over-watted. But they are feeling so good, it does not really register with them. The first inkling that they may be in over their head, happens past Waikola where some head-winds may kick in, or on the climb up to Hawi where you again start to realize that the legs may not be feeling so good.

Make the turn at Hawi and for the first little bit out of Hawi you may feel like Superman - with tailwind and a slight down-hill. Then those winds shift around to gusting side or even head-winds. You get a brief respite from the wind for about 2K for the climb back up from the port at Kawahaie to the Queen-K, but with that tail-wind and the slower speed, and effort from the climb, it feels like you are riding in a furnace!!

Then you are back on the Queen K and in "normal" conditions for Kona now facing headwinds almost all the way back to T2 - this is where most people's race REALLY starts to fall apart - and they still have perhaps 2 hours of riding to go BEFORE they even get to the marathon!

All of the above is why so few, close well on the bike here, or run well at all in Kona - they are completely cooked by the 2/3 mark of the bike!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

You've hit the nail here; I've always thought that every competitor must race their own race. This year we learned that even Frodo can blow up, and Lionel also blew to some degree, being out-run by 2:27 over the last 3 miles. Everyone has to be very realistic about what kind of pace they can hold on the bike, erring on the conservative side, and still have enough juice for a good run.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

A lot of people are arguing passionately from their own perspective.

"Well Kona would be an awesome victory lap and an awesome vacation (if I could/do qualify)...... so Kona is awesome."

"Kona is an incredibly frustrating race to try to do well in and feel good about yourself (because of the accidental/deliberate drafting and the unique conditions)....... so Kona sucks."

Yes- both things are true

Switch the name don’t switch the name…people get immediately defensive when intelligence is obvious. I think it may forefront insecurities but I don’t know.

I think Foucault might key in on the power of discourse to discipline – or act on our actions – us and produce “Kona.” To quote the great Foucault “power is its most powerful when it no longer has to be practiced.” Meaning, we’ve come to think of Kona as such an ontological ‘thing’ that we now discipline ourselves based on this abstraction (a la Marx).

So the circle jerk (and you’re so right about that) continues to get - I’ll say worse to avoid being crude. Worse meaning more powerful as it has successfully co-opted a once grassroots thing (see punk rock, skateboarding, parkour, etc). People are so narrative driven they don’t see this process or perhaps don’t want to recognize it – it stays powerful because this influence happens to someone else, “I’m exempt from influence because, well, I’m me”. And, like anything that must grow to maintain/sustain its hold on us, the goal post has to move – think aero water bottle covers. Thus, like you said, after you realized the dream it was back to self-doubt, etc. But, and back to Foucault - power moves to counteract its subversion.

It’s really difficult to subvert an ideology.

Tyra Banks telling us to love ourselves for how we look, the Red Sox going on Queer Eye only after they won the series, you telling us the race sucks only after you’ve done it. What will it take to subvert the great Kona? Or is that just another powerful narrative reifying the commodity fetish (e.g. Lukacs)?

Perhaps that is a conversation for a cold beer or cup of bleach. I applaud your courage, sir.

All your insisting on putting ITU LC on a second tier has kind of made my point. There do exist majors. You're putting Roth and ITU SC up with the two IM events.

One can debate to kingdom come whether SC vs. LC is the difference between Singles and Doubles in tennis or between Clay, Grass, and Hard Surface, but the point is that when you draw a clear line in prestige, you include other races up there with Kona and Kona is just the Augusta or Wimbledon of Tri (LC or overall), not the only major.

@pk They left off the Olympics because the question I asked was regarding annual competitions.

Not a chance! The pros will go where the money is and if the WC title leaves Kona, they aren't going to shred themselves for some now-meaningless race. Your comment reminds me of when Chicago and NYC Marathon first started paying money (and becoming vastly more competitive) while at the same time the Boston Marathon insisted that they would remain amateur and that the best would continue to race at Boston because of their history and prestige ... until it became painfully and embarrassingly obvious in 1985 ( that if they didn't establish a prize structure they were about a year or two away from being nothing more than a people's marathon, and a vastly diminished one at that. They started paying in 1986. Take away the WC title and Kona goes the same route.

If that's what you want to think fair enough. Do I think Roth is on par with Kona and 70.3 is on par with Kona....no I dont. You asked me 3-4 events to make up a "major" of tris.....i gave you those 3. I think Kona is by far and away a much bigger race and prestige then even Roth or 70.3 worlds (which is 1 of 3 "world championships" LC events- itu, IM, 70.3). So do I think tri has "majors" like golf/tennis does...nope. But if you think it does and Kona is fine staying at Kona because the Master's or Wimbledon doesn't move either....fair enough.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Hello PennBen and All,

Your essay sounds like a paper for a philosophy class ... (meant in a nice way)

Thanks ..... I learned a new word 'reifying' that made me think a bit.

http://www.english.ufl.edu/...n%20and%20Utopia.pdf

As to Kona WC ...... I think eventually China ..... as an ascendant nation and owner ..... will move Kona WC to China proper ..... for reasons of national prestige.

We should enjoy Kona and Madame Pele while we can .... it is very possible it will leave.



The age groupers follow the pros ..... and prizes would be established that lured the pros to China ...... and the age groupers would follow.

There would be a bit of weeping and wailing about 'tradition' ........ but a new 'Kona' would be established ..... in China.



And then we can talk about how great the 'old days' of Kona were ..... and they were.

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Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster

I think all you fast mofos need to listen to Kiley and let the roll down go all the way down to 100 so I can have a chance to go. It really sucks and you should save your money.

I have total respect for anyone doing Kona, but when I watched the race on NBCSN this year and they showed Daneila Ryf coming in at @ mile 22, I was surprised to see so many walkers heading the other way (at about mile 11). There were tons of them. I mean, it seemed like the majority of athletes were walking at that point. Maybe that's a difficult section of the course, but I was under the impression that Kona attracted the best and most well trained AG's in the world. When I saw so many walking, I found it pretty discouraging (in terms of my own aspirations). Don't get me wrong, total props and respect to anyone who has qualified or done Kona.

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"The first virtue in a soldier is endurance of fatigue; courage is only the second virtue."
- Napoleon Bonaparte

Maybe that's a difficult section of the course, //

I believe that was up Palani hill, so probably the most difficult 3/8 mile of the course. So for sure there were tons of walkers there, a lot of pros even walk sections of it while cooling off and getting a drink..DOnt recall exactly, but maybe 10 to 13% grade??

remember that most AG that do qualify for Kona have already raced their "A" races, most of them not more than 6 months prior, so they are already fatigued, having spent several months training for the race that brought them to Kona. Other than maybe a group or 6-8 elite amateurs on each AG, a regular AG that does qualify for Kona is not training for it as his/her A Race, nor looking for a top spot (as there is nothing else to qualify for). most of them go for the experience, for the show, to be able to say that they were in Kona, to race with the Pros, but they are not training as hard as you would think... so most of them will not perform as well as they could...

The majors are absolutely not on equal footing in golf.

As a former PGA Professional........I'd love to hear you expound on this.

They all count as a "major" but if you polled 150 PGA pros which major they would like to win, my bet is zero would pick the PGA. The Americans would pick the Masters or US Open, the Europeans and International players would pick the British Open or Masters.

As to Kona WC ...... I think eventually China ..... as an ascendant nation and owner ..... will move Kona WC to China proper ..... for reasons of national prestige.

And like everything else that happens when China takes over, it will be destroyed...

This is an important point. I do love the sport -- that's why I posted this thread. We are wondering why the sport is declining. In my opinion the biggest force driving the decline is IRONMAN, among the middle of the pack, and Kona, among the pointy end athletes on these boards. And IRONMAN is Kona and Kona is IRONMAN. This sport is not supposed to ruin us, make us feel like shit, or, in the words of Jesse Thomas, "take years off my life". We are burning out our athletes and burning out our best athletes.


My relationship with triathlon was almost irredeemably broken. I took two years off and stepped right back into the mistake I made before, which was to sign up for IRONMAN. Because Kona. And then I realized how dumb it was for me to spend months of inordinately consuming training volume to get to the start line of a distance I don't even like -- an endurance event won by the person who slows down the least isn't my idea of racing -- to get back to the last place on earth where I want to do an IRONMAN where I get to spend a week with the most intolerable narcissists on earth. And for what? For this idea, promulgated by the most vicious and damaging profiteering organization in endurance sports and reinforced by a culture that glorifies and supports the foremost agent of its demise.

For such smart people, triathletes are not good at independent thinking or perspective when it comes to the culture they irrationally romanticize the worst elements of. Well, that's what this forum is for, and let me just tell you, pro or amateur alike, that it's okay. You don't have to go to Kona or do IRONMAN. In fact, it sucks! You don't have to do races that make you hate yourself and the sport that is supposed to uplift you on the days you spend your life preparing for.

If you want to see what Kona is like, go spectate. Relax and enjoy it and bring a road bike and ride all over the island. This will be a much much better experience. And you don't even have to qualify.

When I admitted all this to myself, I realized I had found the other side of fear. Wait, what?

Hello Sanuk and All,


I am hoping for no destruction ..... but who knows?


China is very interested in international sports.


http://www.velonews.com/...p-ahead-china_450926




"NANNING, China (VN) — Will a Chinese rider win the Tour de France someday? Top professionals say the new Tour of Guangxi could be the first step to grow enthusiasm for WorldTour racing in China.


The People’s Republic of China, a country of 1.38 billion citizens, only counts one professional and maintains minimal links to the mostly European sport. The new WorldTour-level race in Guangxi, however, could change the situation."


Read more at http://www.velonews.com/...#EkWZXMwrQ51FR6RO.99

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubNRaDv7qxg

It appears we do a lot of business with China ...... Our largest trading partner.

https://ustr.gov/...oples-republic-china


U.S.-China Trade Facts


U.S. goods and services trade with China totaled an estimated $648.2 billion in 2016. Exports were $169.3 billion; imports were $478.9 billion. The U.S. goods and services trade deficit with China was $309.6 billion in 2016.

China is currently our largest goods trading partner with $578.6 billion in total (two way) goods trade during 2016. Goods exports totaled $115.8 billion; goods imports totaled $462.8 billion. The U.S. goods trade deficit with China was $347.0 billion in 2016.

Trade in services with China (exports and imports) totaled an estimated $69.6 billion in 2016. Services exports were $53.5 billion; services imports were $16.1 billion. The U.S. services trade surplus with China was $37.4 billion in 2016.

According to the Department of Commerce, U.S. exports of goods and services to China supported an estimated 911 thousand jobs in 2015 (latest data available) (601 thousand supported by goods exports and 309 thousand supported by services exports).

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Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster

China is currently our largest goods trading partner with $578.6 billion in total (two way) goods trade during 2016. Goods exports totaled $115.8 billion; goods imports totaled $462.8 billion. The U.S. goods trade deficit with China was $347.0 billion in 2016.

Just because there is a lot of money to be made when dealing with China, doesn't necessarily mean it's a good idea. I lived in SE Asia for 3 years and saw first hand what it's like to live in a city dominated by Chinese businesses (Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, Philippines) and there is a big price to pay when they start taking over, particularly in terms of the control and power of their large corporations and in terms of the environment.

If we put profits ahead of everything like how the Chinese operate, we will see the impact in 20 years here too.

Hello Sanuk and All,

Sanuk wrote in part: "If we put profits ahead of everything like how the Chinese operate, we will see the impact in 20 years here too."

Call me cynical ..... but if that is the case .........

We're screwed!

(I lived in Japan, Okinawa, and the Philippines also ..... and traveled to China and many of the other Asian cities frequently for about 40 years ..... but last time I was in China was 15 years ago ..... so I will concede that you are likely more in touch with present conditions than me.)

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Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster

It would be interesting to get perspectives of those who have been around the sport since inception. Kona as the holy grail picked up world wide following the iron war year. In Australia this sparked awareness of those not involved in the sport.

Triathlon in the 90's and early 2000's was primarily OD and short course racing with one Iron Man race, Greg Welch and AG who tended to focus on Long course. Lots of people had limited or no interest in doing IM at all.

The IM brand has done a very good job of turning that on its head and most races are geared towards the Half and IM distance. Doing IM and dreaming of Kona are many peoples only experience of triathlon. We struggle to run local sprints and a regular race calendar.

I have seen many a person come into the sport dream of Kona and not really enjoy themselves. Kona as an objective is fine, maybe its not for everyone. Kona and IM is the dominant player in race supply making it harder for people to find other experiences.

Yes Kona and IM is a bit malignant, many of the locals in their 40's who would still give a good account of themselves have gone to bike racing and running and times are slowly moving out to over 10 hours for KQ so maybe it is changing.