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Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon
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I can't stand Kona and I think it is evil as an institution and oppressive as a social force. There, I said it.

Don't get me wrong. I was basically on my feet screaming when Patrick Lange was poised to make the catch on Lionel Sanders. What a beautiful thing to watch -- athletes excelling at the highest level of the sport on the grandest stage. Lange, Ryf, Crowley, Charles, Potts -- these are the athletes who performed to their potential.

But what about everyone else? How did Ben Hoffman fare after months of absolutely batshit training and volume? What happened with Jesse Thomas? How did Pete Jacobs' final race on the Big Island go after half a decade of irrelevance? Was this not supposed to be xyz's year to run away with the overall amateur bowl? Most of those people did terribly. Who shit the bed in the women's race? Most of them! We all saw Frodeno crumble...that hurt to watch.

These athletes all failed and many of them failed publicly and spectacularly. Among the amateurs, not a single person on my facegag feed or that I irontracked did well -- by that I mean nobody did the marathon under 4 hours -- which is just such an embarrassing thing after a week full of UPR photos, selfie's in front of the wall of names, equipment laid out the night before, etc. Then came the follow up blog posts and reflections -- "Not the day I'd hoped for..." "I was defeated here once again" but then "I'll be back to finally conquer this race. It's Kona!" -- and it's just insanity.

Get a clue folks. You're never going to do well at this race! It's an absurd event in ridiculous conditions in a dumb place to be running a marathon, let alone a marathon in the afternoon heat and humidity after riding 112 miles and swimming a few more. No amount of equipment and nutrition optimization, training rigor, specific preparation is sufficient for the overwhelming majority of athletes to do passably. If you haven't done well once or twice, you probably won't do well ever.

Why is this race so important in our sport and in our culture?

First, because IRONMAN WTC. Did you know they lose money on this race? They lose a lot of money on this race. But this race is branded and marketed as the end all be all, the beginning and the end of all things triathlon, and despite being awful in every sense as a participatory event, the motifs of tradition and history -- IRON WAR! TOO MUCH GLOOOO -- and a carefully managed brand presentation are apparently intoxicating enough that this race has been called "more than a triathlon; it is triathlon."

Second, because commerce and profit for endemic companies. The Kona expo is a corporate circle jerk where triathlon's fastest and most influential (and wealthiest) athletes descend and get their bikes rubbed and egos stroked. The Rudy Project helmet gambit being the most notorious, this event is all about selling shit. Rudy Project doesn't care about your hopes and dreams -- they know you have two things: you have influence and you have money. Of course you have money. Because you're there. This race is so incredibly expensive it's painful, and nobody without serious means or supporters gets to go unless they make unconscionable choices to deprive or neglect other aspects of their financial lives.

Third, because it's a social construct and a cultural paradigm that nobody ever seems willing to subvert because it is reified in our language -- Kona! KQ! -- and in our lives by its maker and the companies that profit off its halo. Triathletes are sheep and follow the herd and the biggest flock into KOA each October, following the asses in front of them. Rudy knows this. Despite witnessing the train wreck of our friends' performance failure on our instagags, we still see the 15 hour finisher trying to do ten IRONMAN races just to do this one awful one.

There is not a more influential mechanism of social power than "Kona". There is not a less justifiable and more psychologically destructive cultural institution in this sport than this race. Except maybe Thomas Gerlach. But seriously, Kona is such a ridiculous thing and a psychologically destructive institution. Terrible for the sport and even worse for the athletes that fall victim to its wrath. If Foucault were alive and a triathlete, he'd have a field day with the 50 Women to Kona debacle.

Jesse Thomas was basically sobbing on his instagag feed like a total Sally. This race literally makes grown men cry. Dirk Bockel's wife was crying for him at the end of the great 2012 documentary that captured his maniacal quest to stand atop the podium in Kona. After Dirk's 2012 failure at Kona, Dirk's wife -- who seemed to be the greatest asset he had in either sport or life -- said: "Why do we do this? Why do we put ourselves through this pain? This is so hard. It is so hard." Sobbing, but in a way that is much more relatable than Jesse Thomas who needs to just not do this race, like the Wurteles. She is in love with someone who insists on harming himself in the name of achievement. I call it emotional abuse and shame on him.

We glorify the hardness, the toughness, etc. -- what a bunch of bullshit. Dirk Bockel is now divorced and living in a van and writing a book or something. Ben Hoffman was going on like a fool about how the race is mental -- yes, the race is totally mental, and you are totally mental -- and by the way, what happened to you last Sunday? And now the Hoff is out there again training just as stupidly as he did in the lead up to this race, like he didn't just get blown off the Big Island by the best in the world.

Watching Jordan Rapp fuck up this race every time out has been just so painful to watch but so predictable, because you can't show up to this race utterly exhausted from what it takes to get there and expect to bang out a top ten. And you can't show up with a head space so clouded and muddied by the personal and cultural import of this race that you can't see the buoys in the swim, which seems to be what happened to him every go. You have to realize that it's just a social construct and you probably won't do well, and the bigger head case you are, the more important that realization is for your performance and your sanity.

This race makes people crazy. The KQ is the acronym that defines the right of admission, which is itself just an invitation to embarrass yourself and fail to live up to your potential in the most public and wretched way possible. The only athletes crazier than those who get there and go is those who can't and don't. Those people hate themselves the most. Which is basically everyone. What an uplifting thing.

I did this race one year and let me tell you, it was terrible. Kicked and punched like none other for an hour in the swim. Draft fest on the bike -- if you were willing to draft, which I was not at the time, so I lost ten minutes to the 25-29 Euro pain train -- followed by lonely riding in the ugliest geography on earth, on a highway, in 85 degree heat. The run, or should we call it a "run" in quotes, because nobody runs the thing. Do you know what it feels like to walk 5 or 10 or in my case over 15 miles in those conditions in that place? It sucks. Don't do it.

There was nothing transcendent or uplifting about Kona for me, except maybe my parents being proud of me for finishing. That pride in my parents' pride last about 5 minutes before I was back to the drawing board, full of self hate and renewed determination to get back to this island and attempt this same ridiculous task.

This race made me feel like shit. And still does. Including the fact that I haven't been back since.

Now excuse me while I go drink bleach.
Last edited by: kileyay: Oct 25, 17 19:44
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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I wish I had the talent of playing the keyboard like you do (English is not my mothertongue but also in my mothertongue I can only write boring stuff compared to your poems).

Thanks for sharing
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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I still enjoy Kona. But I also enjoy this post. Bravo, Kiley.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for sharing, an enjoyable text to read =)
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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We'll make you feel better Sunday at SwimRunNC!!

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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I think I've made all these points over the years, but didn't offend as many people. LOL.

I will never waste $5k and a weeks vacation to do Kona. There are so many great races out there worth more of my time and money.

Note to all triathletes: try looking for races somewhere other than ironman.com.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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It was getting a bit boring around this forum lately I must say....
Last edited by: TravelingTri: Oct 25, 17 9:11
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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I agree completely. The fact that people get beat down after beat down and WANT to go back to what is - let's be honest - a truly terrible event among terrible events (take away the WC designation and like 100 people would sign up for this race as a stand alone IM) is mind boggling. And I'm honestly sad I've never KQ'd. Damn it me.

The "Quest for Kona'' series is an incredibly interesting series if you look at it for what it is: a marketing piece. It's like the idea that EVERYONE should be considering Kona as a goal (even the guy who goes like 14 hours!) should be ubiquitous is...normal. Very strange, but very compelling.
Last edited by: jkhayc: Oct 25, 17 9:28
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Time to change your username back to Pubes.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Couldn't agree more. There are way better, more scenic, and cheaper venues than Kona. If not for it being the WC, it would've been squished (unfortunately) like CdA, Tahoe, and any others.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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nice perspective!

People find out I do Ironmas and they can't understand why we do the sport, they couldnt understand Kona.

There is a secular component of the social construct that is in it for the challenge to say you were one of the few that qualified. That is different than buying or legacy lottery entry's. Like becoming a US Marine or Navy Seal.

This post has inspired me to qualify for Kona...#1 bucket list item!

Cheers!
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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kileyay wrote:
There is not a more influential mechanism of social power than "Kona". There is not a less justifiable and more psychologically destructive cultural institution in this sport than this race. Except maybe Thomas Gerlach. But seriously, Kona is such a ridiculous thing and a psychologically destructive institution. Terrible for the sport and even worse for the athletes that fall victim to its wrath. If Foucault were alive and a triathlete, he'd have a field day with the 50 Women to Kona debacle.

x2 on the Pubes...

So what about Marino? What are you thoughts on his decision to avoid the race like the plague? Is he the smartest, most rational professional that you now know? Ironically I think Potts was just flat out lucky, it turns out not giving two ..... about the race might actually be the way to perform to your potential.

What the boys learned this year is that it is crazy stupid to go with Lionel. Nobody can ride with Lionel even with all his cycling faults and the race is only going to get more extreme in the years to come with Starky coming back, Gomez, and the race to get to the front of the race. Almost seems like racing your own race and expecting the massive meltdowns as the ticket to the Top 10.

Regardless you are probably right and to me the real question is not only how many people have been crushed by Kona, but how many others have been crushed trying to qualify for it?


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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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kileyay wrote:
I did this race one year and let me tell you,

Nice backdoor brag.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]
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NordicSkier wrote:
Note to all triathletes: try looking for races somewhere other than ironman.com.

Amen to this!!!
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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pretty much all truth.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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I tried to reply but fuck it... Can't add anything more to this except it's 100% correct.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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OK - you were trying to be over the top and you made it!

Getting to the top of any sport / discipline is a challenge that can grind up and spit out a lot of talented people along the way - that is part of the package. For every gold medal in the Olympics, there are probably hundreds of disappointed aspirants, some of them broken by the effort and sacrifices, some of them stronger for it. A prima balerina, a Nobel prize winner and for that matter, the contestants on the Bachelor/Bachelorette . My own kid is still recovering from the disappointment of not getting into his choice of schools.

A championship is hard and almost everybody will fail by definition - unless we are going to outlaw achievement, what you say will be true about almost any way of sorting out the best.

In defense of Kona and Triathlon in general - it is one of the most accessible championships anywhere, despite the costs and distance. Good luck getting a tee time at the US Open, or a court at Wimbledon. I was at the Olympics last summer and never met a single athlete - let alone got a chance to run around in my underwear with them. $5,000 would probably buy you a seat behind home plate for the World Series, for one game - maybe you get a foul ball.

Does it have to be Kona? I don't know, I guess that is up to whoever owns it. World Cup and 70.3 championships rotate around so if you are looking for better weather feel free to qualify there. Part of the big deal of Kona is the place and I think it would suffer without the Energy Lab and Queen K as touchpoints... but if someone put together a prize package that would pay the winners like the winner of a major golf or tennis tournament, I could live with the crucial move being made on Fisherman's Warf or 5th avenue.

.

" I take my gear out of my car and put my bike together. Tourists and locals are watching from sidewalk cafes. Non-racers. The emptiness of of their lives shocks me. "
(opening lines from Tim Krabbe's The Rider , 1978
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [dprocket] [ In reply to ]
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dprocket wrote:
kileyay wrote:

I did this race one year and let me tell you,


Nice backdoor brag.

it eliminates the response to the post of "sounds like someone's a little butthurt they've never done kona." and it's not a ''backdoor'' brag.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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+2 for use of butthurt and backdoor in the same post

--------------------------------------------
TEAM F3 Undurance
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [TriDevilDog] [ In reply to ]
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TriDevilDog wrote:
OK - you were trying to be over the top and you made it!
Getting to the top of any sport / discipline is a challenge that can grind up and spit out a lot of talented people along the way - that is part of the package. For every gold medal in the Olympics, there are probably hundreds of disappointed aspirants, some of them broken by the effort and sacrifices, some of them stronger for it. A prima balerina, a Nobel prize winner and for that matter, the contestants on the Bachelor/Bachelorette . My own kid is still recovering from the disappointment of not getting into his choice of schools.
A championship is hard and almost everybody will fail by definition - unless we are going to outlaw achievement, what you say will be true about almost any way of sorting out the best.
In defense of Kona and Triathlon in general - it is one of the most accessible championships anywhere, despite the costs and distance. Good luck getting a tee time at the US Open, or a court at Wimbledon. I was at the Olympics last summer and never met a single athlete - let alone got a chance to run around in my underwear with them. $5,000 would probably buy you a seat behind home plate for the World Series, for one game - maybe you get a foul ball.
Does it have to be Kona? I don't know, I guess that is up to whoever owns it. World Cup and 70.3 championships rotate around so if you are looking for better weather feel free to qualify there. Part of the big deal of Kona is the place and I think it would suffer without the Energy Lab and Queen K as touch-points... but if someone put together a prize package that would pay the winners like the winner of a major golf or tennis tournament, I could live with the crucial move being made on Fisherman's Wharf or 5th avenue.

It may be difficult to meet athletes at the Oly Games b/c of security plus the athletes' focus on their races but, if you swim at any pool, or run on the track at a D1 school with Olympians on their swimming and/or track roster, you can meet them pretty easily. If you include Oly Trials qualifiers, you can probably meet a dozen or more in one year's time. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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A great post - it is nothing short of insane

Everyone I tracked had below par races ; nearly all overbiked but pretend they did not despite walking for half of the run and shuffling for the rest - they all blame something else

I saw interview after interview where the pros claimed they would ride their own race - they rarely do and did not it seems

Despite that I will go again next October as I love the course despite the conditions - so far I have had good races by being patient and listening to my wise owl coach Jonnyo
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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You want more people to perform better at the World Championships? There's only one winner...in every sport...the one who performs the best. that's the way it should be.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Multisportsdad] [ In reply to ]
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I couldn't agree more!!

I just had another.....really, really, really crappy Kona race.

I am a good swim/bike triathlete.
(With an OK run).

On the bike my weight to power is good.
My cda to power is not so good.

My swim/bike advantage at Kona, every time, is totally chewed up and defecated by the huge packs of drafting riders.

And for some reason, I cope poorly with the humidity, so my run is also usually sub-par.

That said, I am a pretty decent 140.6 athlete.
I want some kind of AG world championship 140.6 event.
But what else is there?
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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It seems like a lot of your post points out just how brutally hard kona is...
But isn't a world championship supposed to be?
Isn't it supposed to also be hard to qualify for?

I would like to go to Kona someday because that's where this craziness started, and to a lot of folks it does represent an achievement, just like, say, qualifying for Boston.

I certainly don't have your gift of writing, so I won't say anymore, other than, I'd still like to go to Kona! :)
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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On the "real coaching" podcast a few years ago, this idea actually came up. They were sorta poking fun at the idea that IM world champion has to be able to handle heat, and that if you can't do that and you suddenly don't win in Kona, that it's then perceived you "suck" and cant win the "big one". When it's not the lack of winning the big one that is the issue but climate/heat acclimation. I've actually thought and made some comments with a few coaches that with new owners, I thought the world championships would start moving around by 2020, that maybe Kona is every other year, etc., but that it will start being moved around.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Nice! I wish you had tossed that cold bucket of reality on the Monday morning after the race. That would have been the proverbial mushroom cloud where the Slowtwitch server used to sit. Seriously, did you take a really large dose of Psilocybin? Aside from the wildly entertaining aspects of your commentary, this is actually a really insightful perspective I equate to transcendental drugs.

My partner and I recently had a throw down over my signing up "the family" for yet another destination IM race. She was totally right, it was selfish and we have a lot of other priorities in our lives besides me chasing some silly fucking time on a clock. Don't get me wrong, I love the sport but I got caught up in the M-dot branded racing, the long distance races being the only races worth doing and generally being pissy about not being top 10 blah, blah, blah. (BTW, I'm so far from top 10 there's extra postage required).

I think its really easy to get sucked into the KQ thing, like that's the endgame. Racing is the journey and it shouldn't have a destination. What do you have left after 5 or 10 years of being disappointed? For me, it would have been bitterness. I'm not the guy that's going to make it to Kona on talent or training and I'm glad I figured that out before it spoiled the sport for me.

Kiley, thanks for posting your perspective. Slowtwitch is a tough crowd of true believers but having followed your posts, I know you don't give a shit. Well done.

Rob
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Velocibuddha] [ In reply to ]
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funny, a friend of mine raced it for the first time and had a great race...
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [SBRcanuck] [ In reply to ]
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Kona might be a good test of "toughness" for the Pros.

For aspiring AG podiums it seems to be a good test of two things:
1) Ability draft (NOT legal drafting)- you gain 15 to 20 minutes if you don't get caught drafting, you only 10 to 15 minutes if you do get caught.
2) Ability to run well in the humidity.

This is not the greatest test of overall 140.6 racing ability.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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You want more people to perform better at the World Championships? There's only one winner...in every sport...the one who performs the best. that's the way it should be.

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should world championships stay in 1 place, if you have the ability to move it around? So in Kona it's not necessarily who "performs the best"...it's much more than that, and that's the debate about it only being in Kona every year.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Peterszew] [ In reply to ]
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Peterszew wrote:
funny, a friend of mine raced it for the first time and had a great race...


On the way to Hawi I was passed by about 150 illegal drafters.

I don't remember a SINGLE person passing me that was NOT illegally drafting!!!

I asked myself:
Do all these people consciously decide to cheat?

I think the answer is no.

Here is what they probably think:
"There are a ton of people all around.
What am I supposed to do? I will just follow this one person legally.
Is it my fault that there are all these other people all around me?"

They have a point...
If I started the ride in a pack of 250 that is what I would probably think.

But I started on my own (due to a good swim).
Moving backwards in the field the cheating is very obvious.
Last edited by: Velocibuddha: Oct 25, 17 10:50
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Velocibuddha] [ In reply to ]
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Do you believe that the best age groupers only win because they get to draft ?

Yes it’s a pain in the arse until about 5 Miles off the climb but then I would say it’s pretty clean
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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By saying “performs the best†I’m obviously oversimplifying it. The super bowl (or pick your sport) loser could have performed better than the winner but just had less talent or lost for other reasons (weather etc). My point is that in the end, there are only 2 spots that matter: men’s and women’s winner.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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DFW_Tri wrote:
You want more people to perform better at the World Championships? There's only one winner...in every sport...the one who performs the best. that's the way it should be.

I don't have a problem with your statement........but it begs the question.....Would the same person win - if it were held somewhere else?

That's my personal issue with Kona (insert.....you're just mad because you'll never qualify, here). I think it's a terrible place to hold a world championship.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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"It's an absurd event in ridiculous conditions in a dumb place to be running a marathon"

+1.

First time someone has referenced Foucault here, well done.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [UKINNY] [ In reply to ]
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UKINNY wrote:
Do you believe that the best age groupers only win because they get to draft ?

Yes it’s a pain in the arse until about 5 Miles off the climb but then I would say it’s pretty clean

I believe that 50-75% of the people who podium in the 35-50 men's AGs would not have done so without illegally drafting.

Do all these people consciously choose to cheat ?

I think many are aware that they are "technically cheating" but they feel like they are "trying" to get out of the packs.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Velocibuddha] [ In reply to ]
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Velocibuddha wrote:
UKINNY wrote:
Do you believe that the best age groupers only win because they get to draft ?

Yes it’s a pain in the arse until about 5 Miles off the climb but then I would say it’s pretty clean


I believe that 50-75% of the people who podium in the 35-50 men's AGs would not have done so without illegally drafting.

Do all these people consciously choose to cheat ?

I think many are aware that they are "technically cheating" but they feel like they are "trying" to get out of the packs.

is Ironman the only ones who do a top 5 for their age groups as well? Whatever happened to top 3 were considered to be important enough to be on stage, and then everyone after that can suck it and try and get faster? Or do other sports go further down than top 3?
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [nc452010] [ In reply to ]
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Perhaps not but so what??

If you play the SB outdoor it might produce a different winner. If a race is windy, calm, hot, cold, hilly, flat, they could all impact the outcome.

Why do you need a different hypothetical winner than the one that Kona produces??
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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You will go back.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
kileyay wrote:

Regardless you are probably right and to me the real question is not only how many people have been crushed by Kona, but how many others have been crushed trying to qualify for it?

ME and ME.... I spent 5 years absolutely killing myself trying to KQ because it was the be all, end all. After 2016, I gave up trying. I figured it was a lost cause and was filled with what was the worst heartache I've ever experienced in sport. It SUCKS. You race at the pointy end for a few years but if you don't get that KQ, you're nothing to anyone who races Ironman and people who don't even understand the sport (i.e. have you done that one in Hawaii).

Then in 2017, I decided to do a "fun" Ironman... ended up qualifying.. WOO ME! Showed up the big island and I was constantly looking to my wife going "is this it" or "didn't you expect it to feel different or bigger"? And the race... what the fuck. I only finished to not feel like a pussy. That race is DUMB. I constantly said, "this is the dumbest thing I've ever done." Not the coolest or even hardest... just dumbest. And note to the OP, I ran under 4 hours and finished under 10 and still think the whole thing sucked.

And yes, WTC and all the vendors do not care about our dreams... they care about our pocket book. I even had a couple rather annoying pitches from up and coming skinsuit companies (side note: don't tell someone you can't prove aero benefits of clothing and then immediately say your product is faster than X company). This was likely the biggest annoyance of the weekend. I never felt "special" for being at a world championship; I just felt pressured to buy everything from everyone there BECAUSE it was a world championship.


And I finish this with just the worst statement... I still want to go back. Am I mental? Yep. And honestly, this proved it. We all have a screw lose. I truly wish I could change and just accept that I did decent in my one and only showing at Kona but nope, can't do it. I'm definitely not trying to return in 2018, so hopefully my feelings will change but I'm already targeting a specific race to return in 2019. And all for what? A 20-30 minute better finishing time. Seriously, mental.

UGH!
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Fun read. A bit Tinleyesque. ;) Many valid points. I don't care what anybody says, the Big Island is a fantastic place for a vacation.

Seriously, my three Kona finishes were three of the best weeks of my life. That was 20 years ago so things were more simple then, or has time rewritten every line? If I had the chance to do it all again, would I? Could I?
Last edited by: Mark Lemmon: Oct 25, 17 11:50
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [UKINNY] [ In reply to ]
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UKINNY wrote:
Do you believe that the best age groupers only win because they get to draft ?

Yes it’s a pain in the arse until about 5 Miles off the climb but then I would say it’s pretty clean


It did seem that from Hawi to Kawaihae most people were NOT drafting.

Also from Kawaihae back to Kona:
25% were not illegally drafting
25% were illegally drafting the whole way (but at only 4-6 meters)
25% were occasionally illegally drafting (at 4-6 meters)
25% were following a wheel Tour de France style.

So ...... most people were NOT drafting for 15-60 miles.
Last edited by: Velocibuddha: Oct 25, 17 11:14
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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DFW_Tri wrote:
Perhaps not but so what??

If you play the SB outdoor it might produce a different winner.

That's why they move it around.

Thanks.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Holy crap - I just found this really really small fiddle. I am going to play it for you.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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Its like tennis you win the grand slam and it shows how well rounded you are. You only win at Wimbledon or the french open you really are not the best or most rounded athlete just the best on that surface.

2019 T-Rex Tri Series
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Totally agree.

99% of the folks who train for this race are giving up SO much in their life. Many end up divorced. Many miss so many family things because they are doing their long rides. Many get hurt so they do not even make it to the race. And yes, to see the "run" times is a joke for most. Who cares how "fast" your bike time was when you are walking the run.

I am working on my Penticton videos. Did I win first place in all the races? No way, just too many super folks. Did I have a great time? Yep. Did the wife have a great time, yet. Did I spend crazy amount of time on the weekends training for the long course tri? Nope, zero, but why did I do some much better in my AG then just 6 guys?
Was it a fun challenge to try and do 4 races in 9 days. Yep. Just trying to decide if I want to try to get Legend again in Denmark next year.

Too many in the Long stuff are just OCD. To them, it is a drug, and they just cannot see it. WTC does a great job keeping their addicts addicted. Nothing illegal about that.

I have a friend who for years has just wanted to qualify for Kona. Well, he was there this year, and I see a lot of his run was walking. Shall be interesting when I talk to him to see if he is now over it, or even worse about he has to go back and be better.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
Last edited by: h2ofun: Oct 25, 17 13:08
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Velocibuddha] [ In reply to ]
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All fair points

It is impossible to not draft in those miles say 15 to 40 I agree - it is frustrating because literally there is nowhere to go particularly if you get out in that low 1 hour to 1-06/07 timeframe

That said I think the chips fall as they should in the end for the most part and the better riders and runners grab those top 10 spots
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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This post should be in the Athlete Guide for every Ironman event.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [nc452010] [ In reply to ]
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That’s not why they move the SB around. Thanks.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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DFW_Tri wrote:
That’s not why they move the SB around. Thanks.

Semantics. It's not held in the same f-n place, EVERY year. Translation.....no one has an inherent advantage (or disadvantage). You can't say that about Kona..... (but, I have a feeling you will, anyway).
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [UKINNY] [ In reply to ]
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UKINNY wrote:
All fair points

It is impossible to not draft in those miles say 15 to 40 I agree - it is frustrating because literally there is nowhere to go particularly if you get out in that low 1 hour to 1-06/07 timeframe

That said I think the chips fall as they should in the end for the most part and the better riders and runners grab those top 10 spots

I think I had a top 5 AG finish in me.
But I overheated (probably starting on the bike) and I dropped out on the run.
Swim/bike/survive- is a very, very hard road to an AG podium at Kona.
Float/Draft/Run- is a much, much easier road.

Still, I really want that top 5 AG finish.
I am NOT convinced it is impossible for me without explicitly cheating.

I am considering trying again.

What other 140.6 world championship is there?
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Velocibuddha] [ In reply to ]
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come train in Florida in mid summer. Its hot as satans butt crack and probably just as humid. You will get to Kona and be like oh, just another training day on a saturday mid August.

I dont know how you cold weather or dry weather folks do it. Ive raced some oly distances in the Keys and I might as well have been in the dang amazon rain forest. I didnt know I was capable of the amount of sweat I lost
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [plhci] [ In reply to ]
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plhci wrote:
First time someone has referenced Foucault here, well done.

Are you sure that’s the first time?! I swear every day there’s someone with an opinion here telling someone else “you know Fouc-ault!â€
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [NateChampness] [ In reply to ]
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Haha, well played
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [nc452010] [ In reply to ]
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It’s not semantics as you drew a causal relationship there where none of existed

Nonetheless, I Actually I agree that Kona caters to certain athletes as would every other possible course catering to a different type of athlete. I’m not even against rotating it. I just don’t think that is the only reason to rotate it. My point was more that how many past winners do you look at and say, meh, they only won because the race was held in Kona, if it had been held in _________, then _________ would have won.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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DFW_Tri wrote:
You want more people to perform better at the World Championships? There's only one winner...in every sport...the one who performs the best. that's the way it should be.

But let's be clear here, it's definitely not a "World Championships" in the truest sense. For the WC of an outdoor sport to be held in the same location with same weather every year is nuts, and not seen in any other outdoor sport I can think of.

What about the ability to perform in rainy conditions, in colder weather, on hillier courses and so on?

Having said all that, if I ever qualify I will go, once only mind :-)
.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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So because Kona is too hard, people should stop going?

While I get what you are saying for those that have been to Kona 3 times or more and still get crushed by the course every time, what about those who have never been or just went once? Should they not try to improve themselves so they can do better at Kona or qualify?

What’s so bad about people following their dreams? Some people like torture.... let them torture themselves.

blog
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [ou8acracker2] [ In reply to ]
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ou8acrakcer2: "Holy crap - I just found this really really small fiddle. I am going to play it for you."

Now that is some funny stuff right there!

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Blog: https://swimbikerunrinserepeat.wordpress.com
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [TriDevilDog] [ In reply to ]
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TriDevilDog wrote:

Getting to the top of any sport / discipline is a challenge that can grind up and spit out a lot of talented people along the way - that is part of the package. For every gold medal in the Olympics, there are probably hundreds of disappointed aspirants, some of them broken by the effort and sacrifices, some of them stronger for it.

A championship is hard and almost everybody will fail by definition - unless we are going to outlaw achievement, what you say will be true about almost any way of sorting out the best.

Does it have to be Kona? I don't know, I guess that is up to whoever owns it.

.

This.

Full disclosure - I'm one of Kileyay's social media connections, who yes, spectacularly failed at Kona, and obviously (gasp!) blogged all about it.

Here are five points to add to the conversation. None of which prove any point; I just like to see myself type.

1. People in sport are motivated by different things. For some it's running a set distance on a track and beating only themselves. For others it's racing against people. For those that choose the latter, until there's a better proving ground for iron-distance racing, Kona it is.

2. I have two friends who PR'd last year at Kona, and one who secured another AG podium this year. I consider myself in a competitive class with these people, so I had to believe that I too could have had a good day racing against the best.

3. I ended my blog saying I'd be back to Kona...not because "It's Kona," but because if we can't look at our toughest days, learn from them, and use that strength to fight other battles - what's the point? I had a choice in Kona; I got to be tough on my own terms, with great privilege, and in a safe environment. If I'm faced with a challenge I didn't sign up for (illness, tragedy, etc.), I don't get to say, "Well, I won't do that again because it was hard." Saying I'll get back to Kona is more metaphorical than anything else - it's setting a goal, working hard, and achieving it - it doesn't have to be Kona but whatever fires you up. As previous stated, I enjoy seeing how I stack up against people at iron-distance...so...

4. I declined a 70.3 Worlds spot partially because I'm in agreement on many points made in the OP.

5. Love or hate it, Kona is a big part of the history and popularity of triathlon. Being dismissive of the event as being "terrible for the sport" doesn't seem fair. There are many people who've watched the struggles on TV and been motivated to get in shape, try something new, or challenge themselves - I happen to be one of those people - and I'm a better, not worse, person for it. I swam as a young kid but do not come from a swimming, running, or biking background. Without Kona's notoriety and popularity, I'm unsure where I would have learned about the sport - one I love doing more than any other hobby I've had.

6. If Kileyay doesn't disclose he raced Kona the post has zero merit, calling out the brag there is unwarranted.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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 I just don’t think that is the only reason to rotate it.

-----------

To hold a "world championship" event and not rotate doesn't make a whole hell of a lot of sense to me. You SHOULD rotate it simply because it is the world championships. But this is why it's a mixed world championship and mixed in with a private companies "race", so that they can play on "tradition" to not want to move it, etc. I think the best win that can accomodate the same hot/humid/windy/heat conditions that may not be factored in if event was held in Denmark or Brazil, or Aussie, or Mediterrain.....Where yes conditions help you win it, but it's not the *same* conditions pretty much year after year.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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stevej wrote:
So because Kona is too hard, people should stop going?

While I get what you are saying for those that have been to Kona 3 times or more and still get crushed by the course every time, what about those who have never been or just went once? Should they not try to improve themselves so they can do better at Kona or qualify?

What’s so bad about people following their dreams? Some people like torture.... let them torture themselves.

Yeah I think he's talking about a particular set of people that think they can podium their AG at Kona and keep sucking.

IMO here's the sequence:

1st KQ: Kona is the victory lap, just take it easy and enjoy the day. Soak it all in. (this is my plan if I can KQ)
2nd KQ: Ok see if you can execute a good race there
3rd, 4th, 5th......keep banging your head against the wall if it's obvious you don't do well in those conditions (obviously this is not applicable if you had a good race in your 1st, 2nd or even 3rd try)
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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DFW_Tri wrote:
My point was more that how many past winners do you look at and say, meh, they only won because the race was held in Kona, if it had been held in _________, then _________ would have won.

Honestly... almost every year a "runner" wins. There is absolutely no way to prove it and a lot of people will disagree... but my n=1 is that almost every single year where a "runner" (i.e. Lange, Crowie the first 2 times, etc.) wins by running everyone down, I think on a moderate temperature course, they would have likely missed the podium and an uber-biker would have won. The uber-bikers are just that much faster and would be able to hold everyone off if it wasn't so hot. Might also help if the draft length is longer (i.e. Challenge).
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]
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Honest question - what long distance (half or longer) races are out there that you could categorize as being more worth it than a WTC race? I'm not asking sarcasticly in a defending-Ironman way, just asking in all sincerity as someone who isn't aware of many other good long distance races. I'm trying to broaden my horizons.

____________________________________________________
Ever Grateful, Ever True.
Boiler Up.
Hammer Down.
Hail Purdue
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [BrentwoodTriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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And there would still only be one winner, many would suffer in the race as described by Kiley. I am responding to his post that thevrace sucks for all those outside the winners to which my response is who cares??? Every championship sucks for the non winners
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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stevej wrote:
So because Kona is too hard, people should stop going?

While I get what you are saying for those that have been to Kona 3 times or more and still get crushed by the course every time, what about those who have never been or just went once? Should they not try to improve themselves so they can do better at Kona or qualify?

What’s so bad about people following their dreams? Some people like torture.... let them torture themselves.

I think it's the fact that KONA is a manufactured dream.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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you, sir, are an inspiration. thank you for this post
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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Sean H wrote:
stevej wrote:
So because Kona is too hard, people should stop going?

While I get what you are saying for those that have been to Kona 3 times or more and still get crushed by the course every time, what about those who have never been or just went once? Should they not try to improve themselves so they can do better at Kona or qualify?

What’s so bad about people following their dreams? Some people like torture.... let them torture themselves.

Yeah I think he's talking about a particular set of people that think they can podium their AG at Kona and keep sucking.

IMO here's the sequence:

1st KQ: Kona is the victory lap, just take it easy and enjoy the day. Soak it all in. (this is my plan if I can KQ)
2nd KQ: Ok see if you can execute a good race there
3rd, 4th, 5th......keep banging your head against the wall if it's obvious you don't do well in those conditions (obviously this is not applicable if you had a good race in your 1st, 2nd or even 3rd try)

Let's focus on 3rd, 4th, 5th
You go to Kona because you want an AG podium!
You are not good with (or at drafting).
You don't run especially well in humidity.
Your chance of a podium is not very good.

Do you continue to go?

Do you focus on something else?
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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jkhayc wrote:
stevej wrote:
So because Kona is too hard, people should stop going?

While I get what you are saying for those that have been to Kona 3 times or more and still get crushed by the course every time, what about those who have never been or just went once? Should they not try to improve themselves so they can do better at Kona or qualify?

What’s so bad about people following their dreams? Some people like torture.... let them torture themselves.


I think it's the fact that KONA is a manufactured dream.

So are strip clubs - and people seem to still spend a ton of money at those while also causing them to get divorced. So Kona is basically like a big hot expensive destination strip club. Im ok with that.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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The day they move IM World Champs from Kona is the day WTC valuation is cut in half (as in the company is worth less).

From a business standpoint it would be a future harvard business school case study on one of the worst decisions ever made if they started rotating. 100% absurd to think this is practical in any way you look at it.

I've been to Kona 10 times (not bragging just making a point). Its been a couple years since I have qualified and I am certain if the race was not in Kona I would not be trying to get back.

Time to get a bit of common sense on this topic. Wimbledon will never be held in Brazil ! or anywhere else. And before people comment Wimbledon is not a WC rest assured it is seen that way by those who play there similar to how everyone see kona whether we call it a WC or not. Take it from Kona and that evaporates immediately

This entire thread is full of people who do not get it.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
On the "real coaching" podcast a few years ago, this idea actually came up. They were sorta poking fun at the idea that IM world champion has to be able to handle heat, and that if you can't do that and you suddenly don't win in Kona, that it's then perceived you "suck" and cant win the "big one". When it's not the lack of winning the big one that is the issue but climate/heat acclimation. I've actually thought and made some comments with a few coaches that with new owners, I thought the world championships would start moving around by 2020, that maybe Kona is every other year, etc., but that it will start being moved around.

Time to revise that prediction. It will be in Kona on 10/10/2020.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Hello kileyay and All,

Nice essay .... but ...

Do your really expect humans to stop lining up and paying to go to Kona?

Does not it 'sell out' every year now .... with an additional hurdle of having to qualify?

Your essay will provide incentive to aspirants by showing how difficult the race is.

Cyclists love to suffer ... http://www.cyclingweekly.com/...ean-to-suffer-356111

Consider professional football brain and body injuries ......

How about cage fighting ..... ?







Are these sports going away ...... ?

I think not.

Kileyay wrote in part: "This race made me feel like shit. And still does. Including the fact that I haven't been back since."

Do I read that right ..... including the fact that you feel like shit because you have not been back yet?



Good luck next time!


Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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stevej wrote:
So because Kona is too hard, people should stop going?

While I get what you are saying for those that have been to Kona 3 times or more and still get crushed by the course every time, what about those who have never been or just went once? Should they not try to improve themselves so they can do better at Kona or qualify?

What’s so bad about people following their dreams? Some people like torture.... let them torture themselves.

[Hi, Steve]

I think maybe how I would phrase it for AG athletes - without the flare that Kiley does - is that Kona is a great goal and there is a lot of reason to enjoy the process and then the actual experience in the race. BUT, the race itself is extremely difficult from a condition, competition, and race dynamic approach that many people who KQ are totally unprepared for what is about to hit them.

As is typical with the entire sport, Kona has a way of making people pull out every excuse in the book as to why Kona served them up a beatdown. The drafting in Kona is for real, although this year seemed much better than last year (in my opinion) but when people suggest that is the only way to get to a podium, they are simply wrong. Do some people get to the podium in Kona by drafting? Sure. Do most or even half or 25%? I highly doubt it. Not to plug my own result this year, but I finished 11th in 35-39 and the race looked pretty damn clean up there. I only wish I was a better swimmer and biker to have been more a part of it.

But for people that blow up there, either once or year after year, and provide only excuses about the competition being the factor that led to their poor result, well, there's not much that needs to be said. A lot of ego's get buried out on the lava fields once people realize that they aren't the fastest one in town anymore.

So go for it. Enjoy the process. And then enjoy the island. It's just another race, after all.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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jkhayc wrote:
stevej wrote:
So because Kona is too hard, people should stop going?

While I get what you are saying for those that have been to Kona 3 times or more and still get crushed by the course every time, what about those who have never been or just went once? Should they not try to improve themselves so they can do better at Kona or qualify?

What’s so bad about people following their dreams? Some people like torture.... let them torture themselves.

I think it's the fact that KONA is a manufactured dream.

Aren’t most dreams manufactured in some way? I wanted to be in the Olympics as a swimmer and play in the World Cup when I was growing up. I could argue those dreams were manufactured.

Kona is similar to a lot of other sports big races/matches/games/events/etc. Do you know how many swimmers have killed themselves for years just to get a senior national cut or Olympic trials cut and then when they finally make it, they crumble at the race?

blog
Last edited by: stevej: Oct 25, 17 12:17
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Spectacular.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
Too many in the Long stuff are just OCD. To them, it is a drug, and they just cannot see it. WTC does a great joke keep their addicts addicted. Nothing illegal about that.

Very True. The junkies just keep getting strung along. First its building to finish a HIM, then to finish a full IM, then the pursuit of the elusive KQ performance. For so many, that's the holy grail (see the # of "how many K slots will they have at XX race" threads here on ST)....at least until it's finally in their hands. Despite their best intentions to "just enjoy the atmosphere," few actually walk away from Kona satisfied with their performance. Some seem to get stuck in the vicious cycle of KQ pursuit, IMWC disappointment until they're broken physically, mentally, or financially to the point they can't continue the pursuit.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [FindinFreestyle] [ In reply to ]
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Kona IS NOT hard to finish.
Kona is a great 1 time victory lap after you have KQed.
Kona is a great vacation. A fun race to "participate" in.

Kona is NOT, however, a very good world 140.6 age group championship.
The drafting and the humidity make it a very different race from every other 140.6 race.
Not "harder" just more arbitrary and arguably "unfair."

Kona is the AG group championship for float/draft/humid run!!!!

Shouldn't we have a 140.6 championship for swim/bike/run?
Last edited by: Velocibuddha: Oct 25, 17 12:24
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Velocibuddha] [ In reply to ]
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Velocibuddha wrote:
Sean H wrote:

Yeah I think he's talking about a particular set of people that think they can podium their AG at Kona and keep sucking.

IMO here's the sequence:

1st KQ: Kona is the victory lap, just take it easy and enjoy the day. Soak it all in. (this is my plan if I can KQ)
2nd KQ: Ok see if you can execute a good race there
3rd, 4th, 5th......keep banging your head against the wall if it's obvious you don't do well in those conditions (obviously this is not applicable if you had a good race in your 1st, 2nd or even 3rd try)


Let's focus on 3rd, 4th, 5th
You go to Kona because you want an AG podium!
You are not good with (or at drafting).
You don't run especially well in humidity.
Your chance of a podium is not very good.

Do you continue to go?

Do you focus on something else?

Well that comes down to the person. I remember reading an article about some research that showed that people got a much larger quantity of happiness (time) from anticipation of a vacation than from the vacation itself. I think that applies here.

If you enjoy the training and the laser focus of trying to do good a kona year after year then by all means keep doing it. But if it turns into a drag and you don't get happiness from preparing for kona then stop going.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Canuck1] [ In reply to ]
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Don’t get it? I think everyone gets it. Kona is a fabricated NA centric world championship location for a private company.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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I haven't even been there and this is just about as good a summation as to why I don't want to go.

Other than if you consider this a week of "adult christmas", minus having to actually do the race.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Velocibuddha] [ In reply to ]
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Velocibuddha wrote:
Kona IS NOT hard to finish.
Kona is a great 1 time victory lap after you have KQed.
Kona is a great vacation. A fun race to "participate" in.

Kona is NOT, however, a very good world 140.6 age group championship.
The drafting and the humidity make it a very different race from every other 140.6 race.
Not "harder" just more arbitrary and arguably "unfair."

Kona is the AG group championship for float/draft/humid run!!!!

Shouldn't we have a 140.6 championship for swim/bike/run?

Just to be clear, the drafting is not a result or relation of it being Kona, correct? rather a result of the start format and the fact that 90% of participants swim fast and finish within 10-15 minutes of each-other. Even if this were situated in Nice, the drafting wouldn't be broken up until 20 miles in when the col de l'ecre climb gets tough.

808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [ou8acracker2] [ In reply to ]
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ou8acracker2 wrote:
jkhayc wrote:
I think it's the fact that KONA is a manufactured dream.


So are strip clubs - and people seem to still spend a ton of money at those while also causing them to get divorced. So Kona is basically like a big hot expensive destination strip club. Im ok with that.

That's a metaphor I can wrap my head around

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [fishgo] [ In reply to ]
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Racing Kona is pointless. Too expensive. Too hot. A form of self-harm. Strains relationships.

And I love it.

Clearing the front path of snow in winter is really useful. Brings economic benefit. Not too hot. A form of self-preservation. Popular with those I love.

And I hate it.

Humans, go figure
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [eatmydirt] [ In reply to ]
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Way too much drama going on up in this place...
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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You could make the same argument against the Ironman distance in general. The time and money required to participate in a 140.6 is insane for most age groupers, is it not? Granted, many participants just want to finish and aren't necessarily racing for a PR, but their suffering is certainly on par, if not worse.

Personally, I'm a short to middle distance athlete at best, and even an Olympic distance race is too long for me to be on the rivet, but because these races just don't have the cachet of a full Ironman, or even a 70.3 with Ironman in the title, I keep thinking I should do one.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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kileyay wrote:
There was nothing transcendent or uplifting about Kona for me

well, there was for me. the first year it was held in kona. in 1981. i was just thinking about this yesterday. really, for the first time in my life i thought about this. that race changed the entire trajectory of my life, when i was 23 years old and i'm 60 now.

but it also must be noted that this was the only year i raced it. that race is great because of all the reasons you listed that you shouldn't do it. it's also a race that (in my opinion) you shouldn't annually chase, for all the reasons you listed.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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What a fantastic rant
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [GLindy] [ In reply to ]
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GLindy wrote:

But for people that blow up there, either once or year after year, and provide only excuses about the competition being the factor that led to their poor result, well, there's not much that needs to be said. A lot of ego's get buried out on the lava fields once people realize that they aren't the fastest one in town anymore.

Completely agree with you on this. And perhaps that’s what Kiley is really trying to say. If he is, he could of worded it better or specifically stated this is the target group of his post. I took it as a shot at anyone that wants to go to Kona which I don’t think is fair (I’m an engineer, I do math/numbers, not so good with reading comprehension). Kona is a dream for many, including myself. I hope to someday be there and hopefully be one of the few that has a good race.

I tracked a shit ton of people at kona, including yourself (great race btw!). Having never been to Kona or never done an IM (which is soon to change, I hope), I was really confused why so many people had bad races. It really made me wonder what’s so special about this race that this many people perform so badly? Obviously the conditions and other things but I started thinking about their specific preparations in the lead up to the race. What are they doing wrong? What are they not doing? Every year I see excuses about throwing up, getting sick on the bike, stopped sweating, or not being able to hold down any nutrition. And these are people that have won the amateur title at IM’s or in the top 5. How can somekne who has had so much success at the IM distance screw up nutrition so badly and crumble this badly? I get stuff happens (drop a bottle) but it seems there are just wayyyy more blowups at kona than any other race. Why is this? I have a few ideas but I obviously don’t know for sure without knowing many more details. I think this would make for a better discussion than ridiculing folks for putting Kona up on the pedestal.

blog
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Bravo! I agree 100% and have told many athletes something similar, (albeit nowhere near as well as you put it). I may have to save this for some of my athletes.

*The Gerlach comment literally had me laughing out loud!

Jim Vance
http://TodaysPlan.com.au (Disclosure: I am contracted with Today's Plan)
http://www.CoachVance.com/
Twitter @jimvance
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Now I know the name Chip (aka RecordCarbon) came back under! Brilliant Kiley....
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Just stopped by to say, I agree 100%. +1. Hundo-p. Nailed it.

Group Eleven – Websites for Athletes / mikael.racing / @mstaer
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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stevej wrote:
GLindy wrote:


But for people that blow up there, either once or year after year, and provide only excuses about the competition being the factor that led to their poor result, well, there's not much that needs to be said. A lot of ego's get buried out on the lava fields once people realize that they aren't the fastest one in town anymore.


It really made me wonder what’s so special about this race that this many people perform so badly? Obviously the conditions and other things but I started thinking about their specific preparations in the lead up to the race. What are they doing wrong? What are they not doing? Every year I see excuses about throwing up, getting sick on the bike, stopped sweating, or not being able to hold down any nutrition. And these are people that have won the amateur title at IM’s or in the top 5. How can somekne who has had so much success at the IM distance screw up nutrition so badly and crumble this badly?.

That's really the big question on the performance side. But my theory has a couple pieces.

First, IM is hard. There are great athletes that blow up at all sorts of IMs in all sorts of race conditions, simply because to go fast and be at the front of the AG you are likely going to need to get more things right than wrong. And 9 hours is a lot of time to get things wrong.

Second, pretty much everyone is fast at Kona. You have guys and girls that wiped the floor with the competition at their qualifying race, but then get to Kona to find out that there are 40 other people in the same AG who did the same thing to get there. Mentally, that can be hard for some, especially when the gun goes off and an hour, two hours, three, etc. and that person who is used to pulling away hasn't pulled away at all.

Along those same lines, because everyone is fast, people push themselves harder than they ever should for god knows whatever reasons, but primarily because everyone else is going fast. Look at all of the AG men who rode sub-5 to then just wither away on the run. Was it really in their interest to ride sub-5 hours in Kona? Quite apparently not. But that ego does strange things.

Third, the course in Kona is hard and the weather can be brutal. After your tritats melt off in the saltwater washing machine out there (literally, mine were 100% gone out of the water), you head out to a 5 hour ride in a lava oven, trying not to sweat so much that you can't continue. Then the run...my god the run...you see our teammate John Kelly had the fastest amateur run split with a 3:00? And that dude won Barkley. And second fastest amateur run split at 3:0 I believe was the dude that ran a 2:45 at IM Texas. What does that mean? That the run is damn hard.

So, you put all of that together, plus a million other little (or big) things I didn't address, and you get the recipe for disaster. As I said in another thread, it takes a lot of luck to do well in Kona, and not a lot of bad luck, if any at all, to do poorly.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Velocibuddha] [ In reply to ]
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Velocibuddha wrote:
Kona IS NOT hard to finish.
Kona is a great 1 time victory lap after you have KQed.
Kona is a great vacation. A fun race to "participate" in.

Kona is NOT, however, a very good world 140.6 age group championship.
The drafting and the humidity make it a very different race from every other 140.6 race.
Not "harder" just more arbitrary and arguably "unfair."

Kona is the AG group championship for float/draft/humid run!!!!

Shouldn't we have a 140.6 championship for swim/bike/run?

I think you are going to find it hard to have that race anywhere. When I did Whistler in 2013, they had just moved it to Whistler and added 50 slots to Kona. I was pumped...better chance for me. Except...100 fringe guys like me thought the same thing. To this day, I haven't seen 3 packs of riders riding like that (including Kona 2015) in my life. Wasn't able to even be close despite a huge PR.

It will take a huge push by race management to ensure a proper bike ride for a world championship. Chattanooga worlds was freaking brutal...just a big old team time trial. More spread out because of waves and whatnot, but groups of 5-7-9 just about a bike length apart. It seemed to me like if you want to compete with that, you need to be a freaking monster on the bike and bike away from the packs, or "play the game" and "do your best". I'm not at the level to think about age group podiums at WC events, but as a not super strong biker, jumping on those trains would be the only way I could see competing. Unfortunately, to follow the rules you just end up going backwards in that level of racing. (Except downhills, where I guess I am a world champion - the last short downhill I passed the group of 6 that passed me prior - and it took them 2 miles to catch back up. Suck it drafters! lol)

I just feel that if you moved the world championships to, say Mont Tremblant, you would find the same thing having that many high level age groupers starting at the same time - unless race management started pushing for rules to be enforced.

Brent

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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stevej wrote:
...I was really confused why so many people had bad races. It really made me wonder what’s so special about this race that this many people perform so badly? Obviously the conditions and other things but I started thinking about their specific preparations in the lead up to the race. What are they doing wrong? What are they not doing? Every year I see excuses about throwing up, getting sick on the bike, stopped sweating, or not being able to hold down any nutrition. And these are people that have won the amateur title at IM’s or in the top 5. How can somekne who has had so much success at the IM distance screw up nutrition so badly and crumble this badly? I get stuff happens (drop a bottle) but it seems there are just wayyyy more blowups at kona than any other race. Why is this? I have a few ideas but I obviously don’t know for sure without knowing many more details. I think this would make for a better discussion than ridiculing folks for putting Kona up on the pedestal.


See underlined text. Exactly that. Of course there are other variables, but that's the killer. While I'm speculating, I feel confident in guessing the vast majority of participants are in Kona to compete to the best of their ability. If anything, participants' Kona prep is even more OCD than the typical type A triathlete training regime. Problem is no matter how you train in a lead-up to Kona, performance in oppressive heat / humidity is largely genetic. Sure, there's some minor amount of potential physiological adaptation (e.g. sweat rate can decline over time if you move from an arid climate to an oppressively humid one), but by-and-far this can't be "trained." So you end up large number with super fit athletes in Kona who are destined to be mired in disappointment before the starting gun even goes off.
Last edited by: davews09: Oct 25, 17 13:14
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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I very much enjoyed your post.

Having said that, you claim that the WTC loses money on Kona. I am curious how you know that. I suspect that race and their exclusive right to use the term "Ironman" (in conjunction with triathlons) are two of their most valuable assets. Saying they lose money on the race is like saying a company loses money on advertising.

You also talk about "the 15 hour finisher trying to do ten IRONMAN races just to do one awful one. The legacy deal requires you complete 12 races, not ten, and due to the backlog, I believe it is now at least 13. Having finished 10 and doing my 11th in 10 days, I try to keep abreast of this.

But again, I enjoyed your post..







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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [hadukla] [ In reply to ]
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hadukla wrote:
Velocibuddha wrote:
Kona IS NOT hard to finish.
Kona is a great 1 time victory lap after you have KQed.
Kona is a great vacation. A fun race to "participate" in.

Kona is NOT, however, a very good world 140.6 age group championship.
The drafting and the humidity make it a very different race from every other 140.6 race.
Not "harder" just more arbitrary and arguably "unfair."

Kona is the AG group championship for float/draft/humid run!!!!

Shouldn't we have a 140.6 championship for swim/bike/run?

Just to be clear, the drafting is not a result or relation of it being Kona, correct? rather a result of the start format and the fact that 90% of participants swim fast and finish within 10-15 minutes of each-other. Even if this were situated in Nice, the drafting wouldn't be broken up until 20 miles in when the col de l'ecre climb gets tough.

Yeah.
Agreed.

Maybe a time trial format or AG waves would work better.
But I can see that being hugely controversial also.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [GLindy] [ In reply to ]
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GLindy wrote:
stevej wrote:
GLindy wrote:


But for people that blow up there, either once or year after year, and provide only excuses about the competition being the factor that led to their poor result, well, there's not much that needs to be said. A lot of ego's get buried out on the lava fields once people realize that they aren't the fastest one in town anymore.


It really made me wonder what’s so special about this race that this many people perform so badly? Obviously the conditions and other things but I started thinking about their specific preparations in the lead up to the race. What are they doing wrong? What are they not doing? Every year I see excuses about throwing up, getting sick on the bike, stopped sweating, or not being able to hold down any nutrition. And these are people that have won the amateur title at IM’s or in the top 5. How can somekne who has had so much success at the IM distance screw up nutrition so badly and crumble this badly?.

That's really the big question on the performance side. But my theory has a couple pieces.

First, IM is hard. There are great athletes that blow up at all sorts of IMs in all sorts of race conditions, simply because to go fast and be at the front of the AG you are likely going to need to get more things right than wrong. And 9 hours is a lot of time to get things wrong.

Second, pretty much everyone is fast at Kona. You have guys and girls that wiped the floor with the competition at their qualifying race, but then get to Kona to find out that there are 40 other people in the same AG who did the same thing to get there. Mentally, that can be hard for some, especially when the gun goes off and an hour, two hours, three, etc. and that person who is used to pulling away hasn't pulled away at all.

Along those same lines, because everyone is fast, people push themselves harder than they ever should for god knows whatever reasons, but primarily because everyone else is going fast. Look at all of the AG men who rode sub-5 to then just wither away on the run. Was it really in their interest to ride sub-5 hours in Kona? Quite apparently not. But that ego does strange things.

Third, the course in Kona is hard and the weather can be brutal. After your tritats melt off in the saltwater washing machine out there (literally, mine were 100% gone out of the water), you head out to a 5 hour ride in a lava oven, trying not to sweat so much that you can't continue. Then the run...my god the run...you see our teammate John Kelly had the fastest amateur run split with a 3:00? And that dude won Barkley. And second fastest amateur run split at 3:0 I believe was the dude that ran a 2:45 at IM Texas. What does that mean? That the run is damn hard.

So, you put all of that together, plus a million other little (or big) things I didn't address, and you get the recipe for disaster. As I said in another thread, it takes a lot of luck to do well in Kona, and not a lot of bad luck, if any at all, to do poorly.

John had the 2nd fastest amateur run split. I don’t want to take anything away from the guy who had the fastest split.

Ok so I don’t really get #1. Yes IM is hard (so I have been told). But it’s hard for everyone. Some just may be better at it than others. I see this point as just another excuse to throw out there when one has a bad race without actually diving into the real reason of a poor performance.

#2. Agree completely. Definitely was thinking about this and this applies to just about any “big†race.

#3. This is what everyone says. The course is hard. Yes we have all heard it. And I feel it’s just another excuse similar to number 1 and doesn’t get to the root cause of a bad performance. Everyone has to race the same course. There are some that can handle the course/conditions and some can’t. What are those who can’t handle the course doing wrong (other than number 2)?


IMO it comes down to these things:

- pacing (this includes the conditions part)
- nutrition leading up to and during race
- mental
- preparation

blog
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [davews09] [ In reply to ]
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davews09 wrote:
stevej wrote:
...I was really confused why so many people had bad races. It really made me wonder what’s so special about this race that this many people perform so badly? Obviously the conditions and other things but I started thinking about their specific preparations in the lead up to the race. What are they doing wrong? What are they not doing? Every year I see excuses about throwing up, getting sick on the bike, stopped sweating, or not being able to hold down any nutrition. And these are people that have won the amateur title at IM’s or in the top 5. How can somekne who has had so much success at the IM distance screw up nutrition so badly and crumble this badly? I get stuff happens (drop a bottle) but it seems there are just wayyyy more blowups at kona than any other race. Why is this? I have a few ideas but I obviously don’t know for sure without knowing many more details. I think this would make for a better discussion than ridiculing folks for putting Kona up on the pedestal.


See underlined text. Exactly that. Of course there are other variables, but that's the killer. While I'm speculating, I feel confident in guessing the vast majority of participants are in Kona to compete to the best of their ability. If anything, participants' Kona prep is even more OCD than the typical type A triathlete training regime. Problem is no matter how you train in a lead-up to Kona, performance in oppressive heat / humidity is largely genetic. Sure, there's some minor amount of potential physiological adaptation (e.g. sweat rate can decline over time if you move from an arid climate to an oppressively humid one), but by-and-far this can't be "trained." So you end up large number with super fit athletes in Kona who are destined to be mired in disappointment before the starting gun even goes off.

I know what you are saying but that’s what so many say after a bad performance. It’s just an excuse if you ask me. What’s the root cause though? Saying your body just can’t handle the conditions and there is nothing you can do about it is not root cause.

If one struggles in the Kona conditions, I would think the first thing to do would be to SLOW DOWN. Isn’t this like IM 101 when it gets hot/humid at any IM race? Yes I know ego’s get in the way of this. But everyone needs to be honest with themself and look at every race performance with a non-biased view in order to find ways to improve.

blog
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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stevej wrote:
If one struggles in the Kona conditions, I would think the first thing to do would be to SLOW DOWN. Isn’t this like IM 101 when it gets hot/humid at any IM race? Yes I know ego’s get in the way of this. But everyone needs to be honest with themself and look at every race performance with a non-biased view in order to find ways to improve.

Speaking of dreams....haha.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Velocibuddha] [ In reply to ]
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An observation.....

I have raced USAT nationals, Olympic Distance worlds and Kona.

The AG wave format (at USAT and Olympic worlds) seemed to change the drafting component greatly.
In these races, it seemed that there are deliberate, conscientious cheatersq, and everyone else.
And the drafters were a small contingent.

At Kona almost everyone is a drafter.
Some people feel that they are trying to avoid drafting.
Some people are ignoring it (but probably drafting)
And some people are embracing it.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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stevej wrote:
... Saying your body just can’t handle the conditions and there is nothing you can do about it is not root cause.
I think the point is there's nothing one can do about it to have a desired race performance.

stevej wrote:
If one struggles in the Kona conditions, I would think the first thing to do would be to SLOW DOWN. Isn’t this like IM 101 when it gets hot/humid at any IM race? Yes I know ego’s get in the way of this. But everyone needs to be honest with themself and look at every race performance with a non-biased view in order to find ways to improve.

I guess, in the context of a good Kona race. But that's a much higher hurdle for most, as defined by genetics. Type A triathletes don't want to "race" Kona to a 'perfect scenario' 11 hour finish when they're capable sub-10 at Mont Tremblant. Again, just setting up mass failure. But we're pretty far off topic now.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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You got me there, but I think there is also just a large Reason #4 I would add: Sometimes you just are on and sometimes you aren't, regardless of preparation or execution. And when you are not on in Kona, that may put you back 50+ spots in your AG while in your qualifying race it may drop you back less than 5.

Kona just has a way of exposing weaknesses and mistakes much better than (any?) other race, and that's one of the reasons I enjoy the challenge...at least for now.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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jkhayc wrote:
stevej wrote:
If one struggles in the Kona conditions, I would think the first thing to do would be to SLOW DOWN. Isn’t this like IM 101 when it gets hot/humid at any IM race? Yes I know ego’s get in the way of this. But everyone needs to be honest with themself and look at every race performance with a non-biased view in order to find ways to improve.

Speaking of dreams....haha.

Is that a shot at me or triathletes in general? I’m assuming the latter

blog
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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I admit I have followed this forum for a long time. I find a lot of your views interesting but a notable bias when it comes to “Ironman†in general.


I appreciate that we won’t ageee on kona based on what has already been stated. Shame really - A big part of my life and memories in past 15 years with family friends etc have been a result of the kona pursuit.

I don’t think that exists without it being Kona. For example if it was Arizona would most try, care or give a sh@t aa much ?

Park the World Champ title / I think without that kona would still draw the same crowd. Just like Wimbledon
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [GLindy] [ In reply to ]
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GLindy wrote:
You got me there, but I think there is also just a large Reason #4 I would add: Sometimes you just are on and sometimes you aren't, regardless of preparation or execution. And when you are not on in Kona, that may put you back 50+ spots in your AG while in your qualifying race it may drop you back less than 5.

Kona just has a way of exposing weaknesses and mistakes much better than (any?) other race, and that's one of the reasons I enjoy the challenge...at least for now.

from browsing your results (thanks obstriathlete.com!) and making some on-paper analyses ... do you feel like you have performed at Kona to your potential?
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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oh, definitely in general. i am as guilty as anyone, so i'm also pointing the finger at myself. the race i can honestly say is my best performance in terms of being OK with my own fitness and possible execution was Worlds in Chatt. Going 4:52:xx and being perfectly happy with it (b/c it was an accurate representation of my current fitness) is something I am actually really proud of.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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jkhayc wrote:
GLindy wrote:
You got me there, but I think there is also just a large Reason #4 I would add: Sometimes you just are on and sometimes you aren't, regardless of preparation or execution. And when you are not on in Kona, that may put you back 50+ spots in your AG while in your qualifying race it may drop you back less than 5.

Kona just has a way of exposing weaknesses and mistakes much better than (any?) other race, and that's one of the reasons I enjoy the challenge...at least for now.


from browsing your results (thanks obstriathlete.com!) and making some on-paper analyses ... do you feel like you have performed at Kona to your potential?


For me, yes I think my race this year was just about as good as I could have hoped. I even gave my wife my best race estimates for her to look for me at certain points and I was within a minute of my 9:15 overall goal time. So on that measure, yes it was a great day.

And regarding general potential for Kona in the future, who knows. It would be fun to have more time to train to see if I could improve, but honestly don't care that much...plus I gotta make some $. Speaking of, probably time to get back to work.

ETA: That sounded differently than I meant - I just don't have any interest in making any additional sacrifices/investments/whatever you want to call it in the pursuit of improving my IM potential. But my 70.3 potential....kidding.
Last edited by: GLindy: Oct 25, 17 14:51
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Well played sir. :-)

Funniest thing I have read on ST.

A lot of what you wrote could be applied to most folks doing any IM.
Last edited by: Barlow: Oct 25, 17 14:28
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Canuck1] [ In reply to ]
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Canuck1 wrote:

Park the World Champ title / I think without that kona would still draw the same crowd. Just like Wimbledon


Comparison with tennis is interesting. It doesn't have a single WC but multiple events on different surfaces with (somewhat) equivalent prestige. To be considered great in tennis requires wins at all Grand Slam events in a career.

Hosting the Ironman WC on the same course each year is more of a disservice to the pros tbh. The age group competition with so many categories is already such an unusual construct that it doesn't really matter that it's fixed at one location.
Last edited by: JackL: Oct 25, 17 14:28
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Mark Lemmon] [ In reply to ]
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Mark Lemmon wrote:
Fun read. A bit Tinleyesque. ;)

not that there's anything wrong with that..

never even attempted Kona, knew it was beyond my powers to qualify..

I like lava fields though, always wanted to ride through them.. and swim in those tropical waters. Maybe in the next life.

--
The absurd is born of this confrontation between the human need and the unreasonable silence of the world.
- Camus
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [JackL] [ In reply to ]
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respectfully i disagree. I think if you could ask the pros they would and have, made it clear.

Some people on this thread had issue with the "world champ" title. kona would be the same

Perhaps i am arguing against my own point. As in would Kona stay the same if the "world champs" was moved to somewhere else?

I can say with certainty that most pros would focus on kona at it would remain given history
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Ha! Agree 100%. The "Hot corner" is just a place for family to gather to watch one crumble and walk up Palani in absolute misery. So why every October do I wonder if maybe I could get back in shape and give it one more go knowing full well what the result would be? Stupid WTC. Stupid triathlete brain.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Velocibuddha] [ In reply to ]
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Velocibuddha wrote:

An observation.....

I have raced USAT nationals, Olympic Distance worlds and Kona.

The AG wave format (at USAT and Olympic worlds) seemed to change the drafting component greatly.
In these races, it seemed that there are deliberate, conscientious cheaters, and everyone else.
And the drafters were a small contingent.

that's what I have seen at nationals and Oly worlds.. Budapest had a completely flat bike course and even there it was possible to ride clean. The relatively longer swim in Oly distance might play a part in separation too.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [JackL] [ In reply to ]
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But IM, like tennis and golf, also hosts many many events throughout the world. The single best event in golf (and the best sporting spectator event I have ever been to) is held on the same course year in and year out.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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DFW_Tri wrote:
But IM, like tennis and golf, also hosts many many events throughout the world. The single best event in golf (and the best sporting spectator event I have ever been to) is held on the same course year in and year out.

And that course favors a specific type of player too.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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Sean H wrote:
DFW_Tri wrote:
But IM, like tennis and golf, also hosts many many events throughout the world. The single best event in golf (and the best sporting spectator event I have ever been to) is held on the same course year in and year out.


And that course favors a specific type of player too.

Horseshit... Scratch handicap golfer and have been playing since I was 6.... Augusta is a fair course and I can't think of one aspect that it would favor one player over another unless you're REALLY looking for something.

The US Open and British Open... those courses definitely favor one type of golfer and they change courses every year.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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and yet it is annually one of the most compelling athletic events that exists
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Canuck1] [ In reply to ]
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Canuck1 wrote:
I admit I have followed this forum for a long time. I find a lot of your views interesting but a notable bias when it comes to “Ironman†in general.


I appreciate that we won’t ageee on kona based on what has already been stated. Shame really - A big part of my life and memories in past 15 years with family friends etc have been a result of the kona pursuit.

I don’t think that exists without it being Kona. For example if it was Arizona would most try, care or give a sh@t aa much ?

Park the World Champ title / I think without that kona would still draw the same crowd. Just like Wimbledon

I have the same feelings for chasing TeamUSA for a decade, and continue to do. Lots of friends, and great stories. So, some of us can get the same fun with short course worlds racing.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [doug in co] [ In reply to ]
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doug in co wrote:
Velocibuddha wrote:

An observation.....

I have raced USAT nationals, Olympic Distance worlds and Kona.

The AG wave format (at USAT and Olympic worlds) seemed to change the drafting component greatly.
In these races, it seemed that there are deliberate, conscientious cheaters, and everyone else.
And the drafters were a small contingent.


that's what I have seen at nationals and Oly worlds.. Budapest had a completely flat bike course and even there it was possible to ride clean. The relatively longer swim in Oly distance might play a part in separation too.

In all the worlds I have done, never seen massive draft packs. If I did, would probably find something else to do.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
doug in co wrote:
Velocibuddha wrote:

An observation.....

I have raced USAT nationals, Olympic Distance worlds and Kona.

The AG wave format (at USAT and Olympic worlds) seemed to change the drafting component greatly.
In these races, it seemed that there are deliberate, conscientious cheaters, and everyone else.
And the drafters were a small contingent.


that's what I have seen at nationals and Oly worlds.. Budapest had a completely flat bike course and even there it was possible to ride clean. The relatively longer swim in Oly distance might play a part in separation too.


In all the worlds I have done, never seen massive draft packs. If I did, would probably find something else to do.

Probably a numbers thing I would think - no other world championship starts with 2000 people at the same time - and that is probably the issue here. I know the numbers in Penticton were much smaller than IMC back in the day - making it easier to not have those draft packs.

I think in a town Kona's size, you could replicate 70.3 worlds with two days of racing, in that you could have it happen...but it would be incredibly hard from a race management and volunteer standpoint. Too bad really, as the women's then men's racing was simply awesome at Chattanooga.

Brent

DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Random thoughts, no particular order...
  • Not at all comfortable agreeing with you. I'm not sure how I'll handle it if this continues.
  • Facgag, Instagag, Twitgag - too redundant
  • I think you missed an opportunity to take Dirk Bokel's name and morph it into the term debockle, I would've loved that.
  • We are only in control of two things in our life: how we choose to perceive something and how we choose to react to it. This applies to everything including the Ironman World Championships in Kona. Perhaps I need to apply that to my first bullet.
  • I've been there as an athlete, coach, etc. etc. Here's my favorite way to still do it: go on someone else's nickle for work on just the Monday & Tuesday before the race. Then just drink in the vibe with a few swims on the course, a few runs, a couple of easy spins and maybe a business meeting or two. On race day, watch the swim start on the web. Go and stand in front of Petco on Makala and just wish them all well at the start of the bike. Then go swim with the dolphins for an hour, nap, and make your way out to the u-turn on the Alii with a poke bowl and wish 'em well again. Then watch the rest of the race on your laptop on the couch surrounded by AC. Fly home the next day. That seems to work.

Ian
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [JimVance] [ In reply to ]
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JimVance wrote:
Bravo! I agree 100% and have told many athletes something similar, (albeit nowhere near as well as you put it). I may have to save this for some of my athletes.

*The Gerlach comment literally had me laughing out loud!


You have to be more specific on which one.


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Last edited by: Thomas Gerlach: Oct 25, 17 17:55
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Good post and tons of valid points.

Kona is FULL of douches that take it way too seriously and are complete assholes about it.

I loved the race because I did it as a vacation every year. Drank lots of beer/wine/etc, went down slides with my kid, had damn nice food, and never gave a shit about my actual race except for the day before.

It’s a damn bitch of a spectacle. I just always liked being in Hawaii.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
New Training/Racing Log - http://www.earthdaykid.com/blog --- Old Training/Racing Log - http://colinlaughery.blogspot.com
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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jkhayc wrote:
dprocket wrote:
kileyay wrote:

I did this race one year and let me tell you,


Nice backdoor brag.


it eliminates the response to the post of "sounds like someone's a little butthurt they've never done kona." and it's not a ''backdoor'' brag.

But it does sound like sour grapes.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Your criticism seems to be boiled down to a few items:

1 -Doing well in Kona professionally is equal to doing well professionally.
2 Its expensive
3 The weather sucks
4 People go overboard trying to get there

It seems to me that points 2 & 3 can be solved by simply rotating the venue.

So we're left with a pro problem and an amateur problem. As an achievement to seek, a KQ can be a good thing, if done appropriately and with the right mindset. In this sense, it's no different than a BQ, just to another level. No different than a desire to climb Everest or any other lofty goal.

To me, growing the sport means dealing with #1. This is the problem. To me, 6 people had success at Kona this year: the two winners and the 4 unexpected podium finishers, but only because they're on their way up. That Kienle had a bad year at 4th speaks volumes about our sport. This might be helped by rotating the WC, but the sport needs intrinsic ncentives for non WC races, including sponsor arrangements and prize money.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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My public service for the day. TL;DR translation: Triathlon is hard. Kona is harder. Companies are bad.

Tomorrow, eat the Cheerios before somebody pisses in them and you might be a happier person. For every triathlete you line up who hates Kona and IM and the "corporateness", I'll line up five who love it and admire the crap out of those guys/gals.

Maybe when you get that scary good, you lose joy for the sport. Maybe you forget about enjoying the journey. Maybe you forget that being in the top 0.000005% of all triathletes is damn impressive (even if you underperformed on your big day).

I am a decent athlete. Certainly well above average compared to your average Joe, but average compared to weekend warrior triathletes. I could not have beaten Lange to the finish if I started at mile 25.2 of the marathon. Jan jogged to a 35th place finish (which was only 4.5 hours faster than my IM on a much easier course.) I don't feel sorry him. I am amazed by his performance in his failure.

To me, Jan said it best after Kona:

"It was a downright awful day,†he admitted. "Just when you think you've got this race figured out, it does a 180 on you and I guess it's a tradition of our sport. So many guys out there are still fighting and fighting for a long time and it was my first taste of what some of the age groupers get to feel. Again, my respect for you guys has grown.â€
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Canuck1] [ In reply to ]
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Canuck1 wrote:
I admit I have followed this forum for a long time. I find a lot of your views interesting but a notable bias when it comes to “Ironman†in general.


I appreciate that we won’t ageee on kona based on what has already been stated. Shame really - A big part of my life and memories in past 15 years with family friends etc have been a result of the kona pursuit.

I don’t think that exists without it being Kona. For example if it was Arizona would most try, care or give a sh@t aa much ?

Park the World Champ title / I think without that kona would still draw the same crowd. Just like Wimbledon

So I think the thing is, there really are 2 different issues. One, I think for professionals, your sport needs to have variety with WC locations. But being that this is a private company and the epicenter of all things triathlon, Kona is easy. Everyone now has their Kona trips down pat as far as companies/athletes, etc. So to shake it up, that likely disrupts the apple cart a little too much.

Do I think people would give less shit if they moved? Hell no, because most people will fall in line. That's human nature...sure we'd bitch about it, and we'd cry about how it sucks, but you know what would happen? Said race would still fill up, I'll put any wager you want to make on that (if it ever happens, I'll be here, you'll know where to find me).

I'm also not saying not have Kona. I'm simply suggesting at some point I would like to see it moved atleast for the professionals, but of course if it's moved; the whole race will be a WC for everyone. I've just been of the mindset that when you have your world championship at the same location, you limit the players who can actually win. Or shall I say you pretty much define who can't win...if you suck at heat/wind, etc you have no shot.

Triathlon to me is very unique in that atleast for LC, the leader of the sport is an private company, not an governing body. I don't know how many sports that is truly the case, where governing bodies essential bow to a private company. That's how powerful it is, and not saying that's bad. I'm just saying that when they have a gravy train like Kona, they have zero incentive to move it. But that's a different discussion than the "fairness" of having WC at same location every year (which is what I was mentioning earlier).

Sorry for long ramble.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [colinlaughery] [ In reply to ]
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colinlaughery wrote:
Good post and tons of valid points.

Kona is FULL of douches that take it way too seriously and are complete assholes about it.

I loved the race because I did it as a vacation every year. Drank lots of beer/wine/etc, went down slides with my kid, had damn nice food, and never gave a shit about my actual race except for the day before.

It’s a damn bitch of a spectacle. I just always liked being in Hawaii.

Translation: "I was so scary awesome I could KQ and not take it seriously. I drink beer!"

Who was the douche at Kona again?

Kona is the only thing in the sport that gets any attention from the media (besides triathletes dying in the swim). Maybe we should embrace the Kona spectacle instead of trashing the only event that anyone outside the sport is even remotely aware of. I know we all want to see IM Boise covered on Sports Center, but that ain't happening.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [lessthaneight] [ In reply to ]
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Challenge Roth and Norseman, just to name two.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
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What media picks up Kona coverage besides any media that is paid for by WTC (NBC telecast) or triathlon related media? I've only seen ESPN or NYT write about the sport when they as you mention talk about swim deaths. I've never seen Kona results covered by ESPN (and I check espy daily).
ETA: Was told espn has a few articles from Kona..so you are right there.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Oct 25, 17 18:01
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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I more or less agree with OP 100%

That said I'm nowhere near fast enough to go anyways. But if I'm taking a trip to Hawaii, it is to surf and the only question there is north or south shore. Couldn't imagine a less interesting place to host a world championship. What were the active lava flows booked that weekend?

//Noob triathlete//bike commuter//ex-swimmer//slower than you

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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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My first thoughts were "Geez, this guy is a Negative Nelly...who pissed in his Cheerios?" Then I kept reading as if Pubes could not be contained and he finally broke through and took over the kileyay persona, unfortunate. Then I kept reading..."Hey, this guy is actually NAILING it and that is exactly how it is, exactly the same reasons I stopped a few years ago." Read more...okay, this is getting funny now and taking a turn towards entertainment, especially when the Gerlach comment hit. By the end, there were some pointed sticks that while if I were one of the named, would be a bit offended. Those athletes likely tried their best but at least, tried. In the end, it was a well written bit with a tad of sarcasm and humor. An entertaining overall take of what you watched and experienced.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
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DJRed wrote:
colinlaughery wrote:
Good post and tons of valid points.

Kona is FULL of douches that take it way too seriously and are complete assholes about it.

I loved the race because I did it as a vacation every year. Drank lots of beer/wine/etc, went down slides with my kid, had damn nice food, and never gave a shit about my actual race except for the day before.

It’s a damn bitch of a spectacle. I just always liked being in Hawaii.


Translation: "I was so scary awesome I could KQ and not take it seriously. I drink beer!"

Who was the douche at Kona again?

Kona is the only thing in the sport that gets any attention from the media (besides triathletes dying in the swim). Maybe we should embrace the Kona spectacle instead of trashing the only event that anyone outside the sport is even remotely aware of. I know we all want to see IM Boise covered on Sports Center, but that ain't happening.

Looks like you got a stick up your ass.

Seriously though. I went to Kona as a celebration and had fun dude. I was pretty much saying it would have been a drag to take it seriously as a podium contender.

To each their own I guess. I for one had a damn good time and had a few good VERY low pressure races out of it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
New Training/Racing Log - http://www.earthdaykid.com/blog --- Old Training/Racing Log - http://colinlaughery.blogspot.com
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [colinlaughery] [ In reply to ]
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Hmmmm....I was 2 minutes off my IM PB at Kona 2015 and ran 3:30. This year, a little slower, but under 4 hours on the marathon. Is Kona hard? Yes. For people who live in Maryland(or somewhere thereabouts if random memory stands correct?) it will be harder. That doesn't make it insane or irrelevant. It is race-able for many, and it is enjoyable! If I had to walk 15 miles....I can see where a lot of your emotion about this race originates. I know you are an amazing athlete and I can imagine a little of what that felt like!

The fact that pros and amateurs alike can blow up on this course is part of why it feels so amazing when you get it right. (Or as close to right as an IM ever gets.) And what I mean by right is performing to the best of one's ability. 10:01 is small change in the Kona world, but it was the very best I could do...with a lot of training and work on race day to achieve it. Did it feel more or less significant than any other IM I've done? No.

But Kona is also a lot of fun. That stark landscape the OP derides is beautiful to me. Looking at many of the mainland US IM courses...I'd take this any day over riding around the suburbs of Houston etc etc. (I have never raced in any other US IM) As for drafting, I did lose 5-10 minutes plus too to having to sit up and avoid drafting penalties. More frustrating was that all the guys I had to sit up for passed me on the way out to Hawi...and then I passed them back on the way into town. That's life for MOST people in an IM...KQ'ers and people such as the OP are just spoiled in that they are almost always riding at the front of the pack and don't have to deal with these issues. But this is not a Kona thing; it's an IM thing.

Is it a money grab? Sure! Do I understand friends who want to sign-up for IM events but not Challenge full distance races because of "Kona?" Yes, if they are fast...no MOP'ers and BOP'ers.

This year my friend KQ'd and elected not to take his slot for 2018. Instead, he traveled with me and 9 other athletes from Taiwan who all know each other and many of us train together. Did we have an awesome week as friends, athletes and Kona participants? YES WE DID! The event is bigger than the race. Sure the expo is part of it...but so is volcano national park, waipio valley, the little out of the way places we found to eat and explore. Hawaii is quite a nice place for family and a nice change for me. There is also the joy of traveling to a familiar place and discovering small changes---just as interesting to me as traveling to new places too. I love both.

For the pros....it is what it is...race day. Perform or shut up. And yes, the conditions are far from ideal for many athletes who could do better on cooler courses, or courses with wetsuit swims, or flatter courses, or hillier courses. This is the course that came to embody the initial dream of Ironman...swim bike and run and see who goes fastest.

Kona is hype. It is marketing. But at it's core...it is what you choose to make it. I choose not to limit it to what others define it as. And that's the beauty of life.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [colinlaughery] [ In reply to ]
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colinlaughery wrote:
DJRed wrote:
colinlaughery wrote:
Good post and tons of valid points.

Kona is FULL of douches that take it way too seriously and are complete assholes about it.

I loved the race because I did it as a vacation every year. Drank lots of beer/wine/etc, went down slides with my kid, had damn nice food, and never gave a shit about my actual race except for the day before.

It’s a damn bitch of a spectacle. I just always liked being in Hawaii.


Translation: "I was so scary awesome I could KQ and not take it seriously. I drink beer!"

Who was the douche at Kona again?

Kona is the only thing in the sport that gets any attention from the media (besides triathletes dying in the swim). Maybe we should embrace the Kona spectacle instead of trashing the only event that anyone outside the sport is even remotely aware of. I know we all want to see IM Boise covered on Sports Center, but that ain't happening.

Looks like you got a stick up your ass.

Seriously though. I went to Kona as a celebration and had fun dude. I was pretty much saying it would have been a drag to take it seriously as a podium contender.

To each their own I guess. I for one had a damn good time and had a few good VERY low pressure races out of it.

Oh man. Guy could not be more wrong about his interpretation of you and what you said, Colin. Great to have a reminder that this is ST after all, where most people have no clue what they are talking about.

On that note, it's a perfect time for me to get away from this forum. Don't let the door hit me on my way out....
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [plhci] [ In reply to ]
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plhci wrote:
"It's an absurd event in ridiculous conditions in a dumb place to be running a marathon"

+1.

First time someone has referenced Foucault here, well done.

A quick search shows that the first time someone mentioned Foucault on this board was 2004, the most recent was in 2014.

While not expressly mentioned, the idea of coaches creating dependency in athletes rather than helping them become robust practitioners of the sport comes up reasonably often.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Bockel now lives out of a van?! :O

he is the star of sufferfest Chrysallis!
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [ In reply to ]
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nice post.

I just train - a lot - for fun. Race rarely, almost always locally, on a day that works for my family. Not in this to beat others or to prove how cool I am. Just want to have fun and challenge myself. My family and my work (medicine) are way more important.

Enjoy your journey, wherever it takes you.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [lessthaneight] [ In reply to ]
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lessthaneight wrote:
Honest question - what long distance (half or longer) races are out there that you could categorize as being more worth it than a WTC race? I'm not asking sarcasticly in a defending-Ironman way, just asking in all sincerity as someone who isn't aware of many other good long distance races. I'm trying to broaden my horizons.
Challenge Roth, Challenge Wanaka. I haven't been to Roth, but I did Wanaka in 2012 and it is Amazing. and Hard.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Canuck1] [ In reply to ]
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Canuck1 wrote:
The day they move IM World Champs from Kona is the day WTC valuation is cut in half (as in the company is worth less).
From a business standpoint it would be a future Harvard business school case study on one of the worst decisions ever made if they started rotating. 100% absurd to think this is practical in any way you look at it.
I've been to Kona 10 times (not bragging just making a point). Its been a couple years since I have qualified and I am certain if the race was not in Kona I would not be trying to get back.
Time to get a bit of common sense on this topic. Wimbledon will never be held in Brazil ! or anywhere else. And before people comment Wimbledon is not a WC rest assured it is seen that way by those who play there similar to how everyone see kona whether we call it a WC or not. Take it from Kona and that evaporates immediately
This entire thread is full of people who do not get it.

Canuck1 - I think you've hit the proverbial nail here. I swam and played tennis growing up so I dreamed of the Oly in swimming and Wimbledon in tennis, since this tournament has always been thought of as the premier tennis event in the world. Using Wimbledon as an example is very apropos b/c the exact same arguments could be made about it favoring certain types of athletes, e.g. "the Wimbledon courts are grass which favor the big power serve and volley players. This is discriminating against all of us clay court players who are great at playing from the baseline. I'll never win Wimbledon and it's not fair." Prior to reading your post, i had not thought of this analogy but it is perfect. Thanks.

Just as a sidebar, I quit tennis in my mid-20s and returned to swimming and triathlon. Tennis was just too hard, the mental side of it just wore me down. Swimming and tri are hard but mainly from an exertion standpoint, not a nerves standpoint which goes on throughout a tennis match and only gets worse at the end.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [stevej] [ In reply to ]
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stevej wrote:
jkhayc wrote:
stevej wrote:
So because Kona is too hard, people should stop going?

While I get what you are saying for those that have been to Kona 3 times or more and still get crushed by the course every time, what about those who have never been or just went once? Should they not try to improve themselves so they can do better at Kona or qualify?

What’s so bad about people following their dreams? Some people like torture.... let them torture themselves.


I think it's the fact that KONA is a manufactured dream.


Aren’t most dreams manufactured in some way? I wanted to be in the Olympics as a swimmer and play in the World Cup when I was growing up. I could argue those dreams were manufactured.
Kona is similar to a lot of other sports big races/matches/games/events/etc. Do you know how many swimmers have killed themselves for years just to get a senior national cut or Olympic trials cut and then when they finally make it, they crumble at the race?


Or they never make it to Senior Nationals or the Oly Trials and feel like they've failed and are not a very good swimmer, until they take up tri and realize that they're faster than 99% of tri swimmers. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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gary p wrote:
h2ofun wrote:

Too many in the Long stuff are just OCD. To them, it is a drug, and they just cannot see it. WTC does a great joke keep their addicts addicted. Nothing illegal about that.


Very True. The junkies just keep getting strung along. First its building to finish a HIM, then to finish a full IM, then the pursuit of the elusive KQ performance. For so many, that's the holy grail (see the # of "how many K slots will they have at XX race" threads here on ST)....at least until it's finally in their hands. Despite their best intentions to "just enjoy the atmosphere," few actually walk away from Kona satisfied with their performance. Some seem to get stuck in the vicious cycle of KQ pursuit, IMWC disappointment until they're broken physically, mentally, or financially to the point they can't continue the pursuit.

I don't think you have to do long course tri, or even tri at all, to become addicted to your daily workout. An hour or so of swimming, running, or cycling, done every day for several years can become very addictive over time.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Except here is where the Wimbledon analogue fails......Wimbledon as great as it is, is accepted as it is because pros have 3 other chances to win "majors". So while Wimbledon may be the "big one", there is a a big on in France on another surface, and there is a "major" for the Americans to win, etc. So in reality tennis has 4 "world championships", and your arguing slight semantics at that point of which one is more important. Where as Kona is the only one you get and it's setup is limiting. So everyone has to go for Kona because it's the only big one, even if you know going in you'll always suck because the setup isn't to your liking. Just like the pros who play all 4 majors simply knowing that getting to a quarterfinal at a grass court when your playing style sucks on grass is a great accomplishment and then you can use that mo' when the major goes to your "advantage".

So Canuck talking about Wimbledon not moving to Brazil....it doesn't need to move to Brazil, because the sport realizes that each major has it's own set of unique circumstances and advantages, and that with the 4 majors, everyone can basically play to their strength. That doesn't happen with Kona. But pros show up anyway because it's the epicenter and their sponsors demand they do it, and even if they know going in your going in with longer odds, but you do it because it's your profession.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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.......this race is branded and marketed as the end all be all, the beginning and the end of all things triathlon, and despite being awful in every sense as a participatory event, the motifs of tradition and history -- IRON WAR! TOO MUCH GLOOOO -- and a carefully managed brand presentation are apparently intoxicating enough that this race has been called "more than a triathlon; it is triathlon.

Excellent point, QFT.

Scott
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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good post well written and thought provoking.

On commercialization, yeah so what? Are you somehow shocked vendors want to separate you from your money? Been to a car dealership lately? Wake up and smell the (expensive "designer") coffee. I'll admit I bought an $11 spare tube which it turns out I didn't need. I'll get over it.

It seems every sport has it's Kona. Ask hard core Mt. Climbers about Everest. They'll go on and on about that's not really Mt. Climbing. But, if you gave one of the whiners a chance - they'd jump on it. We got it way easier as far as getting to the mountain (aka Kona). And, our odds of death are even a tad better.

Go. Or, don't go. In the grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter to anyone else. If it doesn't matter to you; that's cool, I promise there are plenty of people behind you who do care. Should they? As long as they...

Enjoy the journey

[because while a Hawaii vacation is great and all that, 13:05 of torture ain't, and, the only difference between 8:01 and my time is a little more than 5 hours LESS torture]

I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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gary p wrote:
h2ofun wrote:

Too many in the Long stuff are just OCD. To them, it is a drug, and they just cannot see it. WTC does a great joke keep their addicts addicted. Nothing illegal about that.


Very True. The junkies just keep getting strung along. First its building to finish a HIM, then to finish a full IM, then the pursuit of the elusive KQ performance. For so many, that's the holy grail (see the # of "how many K slots will they have at XX race" threads here on ST)....at least until it's finally in their hands. Despite their best intentions to "just enjoy the atmosphere," few actually walk away from Kona satisfied with their performance. Some seem to get stuck in the vicious cycle of KQ pursuit, IMWC disappointment until they're broken physically, mentally, or financially to the point they can't continue the pursuit.

I don't know how some of the people on my strava feed afford to live when they were training 25-30 hours in the lead up to Kona.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
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nealhe wrote:
Hello kileyay and All,

Nice essay .... but ...

Do your really expect humans to stop lining up and paying to go to Kona?

Does not it 'sell out' every year now .... with an additional hurdle of having to qualify?

Your essay will provide incentive to aspirants by showing how difficult the race is.

Cyclists love to suffer ... http://www.cyclingweekly.com/...ean-to-suffer-356111

Consider professional football brain and body injuries ......

How about cage fighting ..... ?







Are these sports going away ...... ?

I think not.

Kileyay wrote in part: "This race made me feel like shit. And still does. Including the fact that I haven't been back since."

Do I read that right ..... including the fact that you feel like shit because you have not been back yet?



Good luck next time!

It's funny how we are so horrified by blood/facial injuries. 20 seasons of rugby I've broken a lot of bones and had a lot of stitches, anything facial e.g a broken nose, a couple of stitches usually elicits immediate attention/sympathy etc from medics/friends/family anything else is meh.. my wife was in tears because I had a cut above my eye that needed 7 stitches, I was back playing in 1 week, but she was quite disinterested when I dislocated my AC joint which needed 2 surgeries, a screw and an anchor and kept me off sport for 6 months...
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Except here is where the Wimbledon analogue fails......Wimbledon as great as it is, is accepted as it is because pros have 3 other chances to win "majors". So while Wimbledon may be the "big one", there is a a big on in France on another surface, and there is a "major" for the Americans to win, etc. So in reality tennis has 4 "world championships", and your arguing slight semantics at that point of which one is more important. Where as Kona is the only one you get and it's setup is limiting. So everyone has to go for Kona because it's the only big one, even if you know going in you'll always suck because the setup isn't to your liking. Just like the pros who play all 4 majors simply knowing that getting to a quarterfinal at a grass court when your playing style sucks on grass is a great accomplishment and then you can use that mo' when the major goes to your "advantage".

So Canuck talking about Wimbledon not moving to Brazil....it doesn't need to move to Brazil, because the sport realizes that each major has it's own set of unique circumstances and advantages, and that with the 4 majors, everyone can basically play to their strength. That doesn't happen with Kona. But pros show up anyway because it's the epicenter and their sponsors demand they do it, and even if they know going in your going in with longer odds, but you do it because it's your profession.

^ This is spot on.

A major played on clay - every time - doesn't prove who the best tennis player is. It proves who the best clay court player is...........and that guy rarely wins on grass.........or hard courts.

Ask any golfer which major is the "world championship"......and you'll get at least 3 different answers (I'm not sure how many would answer 'PGA'....though I could make an argument for that one, also). None of them would be wrong.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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I know what it feels like to walk 26 of the 26.2 miles of that marathon course. I did it in 2003 after getting what was then a lottery spot. Third Ironman, and I went into it carrying an injury from my validation event 8 weeks prior, and a lot of extra weight from having life back - Beer, burgers etc. Weighed in at 225lbs at check in.

I was out of the swim quickly as usual, sufferered like a dog on the bike leading to a total blow up around 87 miles in. The run. I had nothing. Absolutely nothing. Took me 7.5 hours and I limped home in 16:41. Medal achieved, t-shirt obtained, but like you allude to, no huge sense of life changing achievement. It was a physically and mentally miserable experience.

100% agree it isn’t the place to go and have a good race at. The draw for the pros is the prize purse and the kudos of being world champ, but for us age groupers it is a very very expensive trip to be a nobody in a field of nobodies.

Having said all that, if I ever did hit a KQ time I would probably take it. I feel I guess similarly to those who go and fail year in year out in that I have unfinished business there. I feel for myself however I am just not talented enough (or perhaps bothered enough) to get back there. I don’t live the tri life 365 days a year, I like Beer, pizza, curry, lie ins. If I never go back that is fine by me, but if I had the chance I’d likely be on the plane. Maybe it is that kind of sick love of suffering for no reason that draws us all to Ironman.
Last edited by: Ironmike78: Oct 26, 17 2:42
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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How many have ever qualified but not claimed the slot
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [lessthaneight] [ In reply to ]
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lessthaneight wrote:
Honest question - what long distance (half or longer) races are out there that you could categorize as being more worth it than a WTC race? I'm not asking sarcasticly in a defending-Ironman way, just asking in all sincerity as someone who isn't aware of many other good long distance races. I'm trying to broaden my horizons.

I guess you've not heard of Roth.

29 years and counting
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Jorgan] [ In reply to ]
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But it’s so subjective isn’t it. I did Roth two years back and wasn’t blown away. The swim is the swim, bike was pretty scenic and it was a drag strip which is fun. The run I thought was pretty terrible. Up and down a dusty riverside path to start, stumbling through a forest to finish. I wouldn’t hurry back. Other than the one crazy hill with all the people, wasn’t any better supported than any other Ironman race I’ve done.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Jorgan] [ In reply to ]
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I’ve heard or Roth, I’ve heard of Norseman but the OP of the post I was responding to was referring to the IM brand in general, not just Kona. If I’m picking a race and have to choose between IM Louisville and Challenge Roth, I’m gonna do Lou and save myself a few thousand bucks.

____________________________________________________
Ever Grateful, Ever True.
Boiler Up.
Hammer Down.
Hail Purdue
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:


I don't think you have to do long course tri, or even tri at all, to become addicted to your daily workout. An hour or so of swimming, running, or cycling, done every day for several years can become very addictive over time.

I know a lot of adult amateur athletes, many of whom display addict-like characteristics towards their training. I've been guilty myself at times when training up for USMS Nationals. None are consumed like the long-course triathletes I know, though, especially those who are focused on Kona.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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"Billy says he doesn't like Susie, but I think he really likes Susie."

Or, if you prefer a more classical phrasing "the poster doth protest too much, methinks."

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [eatmydirt] [ In reply to ]
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eatmydirt wrote:
Clearing the front path of snow in winter is really useful. Brings economic benefit. Not too hot. A form of self-preservation. Popular with those I love.

And I hate it.

I actually like doing that, and splitting firewood. I can see instant results, I feel productive :)

29 years and counting
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Ironmike78] [ In reply to ]
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I haven't done the new Roth run course, but yeah, it was a bit like a canal path version of the Queen K; thankfully overcast the year I did it.

29 years and counting
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:

Triathlon to me is very unique in that atleast for LC, the leader of the sport is an private company, not an governing body. I don't know how many sports that is truly the case, where governing bodies essential bow to a private company. That's how powerful it is, and not saying that's bad. I'm just saying that when they have a gravy train like Kona, they have zero incentive to move it. But that's a different discussion than the "fairness" of having WC at same location every year (which is what I was mentioning earlier).

That's how it is for golf and tennis as well. Augusta and the All England Club are both private organizations (companies? Not really sure, not sure it matters much) and they are major forces in their respective sports. They also hold the most prestigious tourney at one spot every year. Even the Olympics struggles to make in-roads on the prestige of Wimbledon/The Masters. (See the best sitting out if they're not totally 100% to recover for the "real" tourneys)
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Pinewood74] [ In reply to ]
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Except golf and tennis both have 4 majors that are run by 4 different entities and some are private and some are "governing" body. And all 4 are on equal footing almost 99.9%. When you win a "major" in those sports, you don't get shitted on that it was only X major and not Y major. You are a major champion, period.

ETA: There is only really one "major" in triathlon for LC racing- Kona.......I guess you could say Roth is up there but in golf terms Roth would be the Players Championship, where it's clear that there is a dividing line of importance/prestige/championship title between a major and a non major championship. Now of course this is all "self made" by WTC because of how the sport accepts it. We as a sport (media/fans/athletes/businesses) have gone all in on Kona and thus validate that yes it's cool/applicable to be given the "world championship" title. But so let's compare it to say any other sport that has "world championships", what sport out there keeps it "world championship" at the same location year after year?

I can't think of an Olympic sport that doesn't change it's world championship venue every year (or whenever it's held), but of course then you start talking about WTC and it's a business, and makes no sense to move it (which is another point).

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Oct 26, 17 7:42
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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The majors are absolutely not on equal footing in golf. Maybe in Tennis, but then we could just make the comparison as Wimbledon is to Grass Tennis as Kona is to LC.

As for Tennis, you'll never see folks talk about how X player hasn't won the PGA Championship or the US Open if they've won a major (unless it's for the grand slam of all 4), but players will routinely get shit on for not having a green jacket. Augusta is absolutely a step above the others and two steps above the PGA Championship (which is just a major because they needed a 4th)

I still think that Wimbledon is a step above the others, though, although some may disagree with me. (I say this as an American)

The ITU world championships are very much a big deal to the pros and age groupers are real big on Age Group Worlds so those would be your French and Australian Open equivalent.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Pinewood74] [ In reply to ]
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The majors are absolutely not on equal footing in golf.

--------

Your arguing semantics within the ranking of the 4 majors at that point (which I agree Master's is likely the best major but it's still no different than an British Open win) but correct me if I'm not wrong, is there not 4 majors in each sport?

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Oct 26, 17 8:09
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Rather than ask if there are analogues to other sports regarding single venue world championships or majors, perhaps the better question is to be asking if such a structure benefits the sport. (or perhaps Wanda?)

I'd think that for the sport to grow successfully, you'd want it to become more accessible - rotating would at least ensure that I could drive to the venue once every 4 or 5 years, and like the 70.3 WC having incentives for "your continent's turn" the year prior might attract a certain customer who'd otherwise not be in the hunt for a KQ slot. But the key is that this wouldn't drive additional participation. These people would likely be racing IM anyway, and might actually take it easier on their continent's off years.

Instead, WTC is likely focusing on how to grow its customer base. Unfortunately, it's boxed itself into a hole where the NBC broadcast and related media coverage are synonymous with the brand. They're hoping that someone might decide to step up to the 70.3 or IM distance after they watch the NBC coverage. This is why they don't mind losing money on the Kona event.

Yet, crucially, this also ensures that they're locked into an American-centric perspective. The WC is in the USA, and we call it 70.3 and the medals, even those in every other country with the metric system, often have distances in imperial. The coverage too, is too focused on the "top American" even if they're in 7th or 4th or 31st. Even in Canada, where we get NBC, I can't get the Kona broadcast because of programming rights.

To grow the sport, I believe they're going to need to rotate the venue to create a truly global sport/brand, but to do so they'd need to take short term risk. I'm not sure they're ready to do that.
Last edited by: timbasile: Oct 26, 17 8:14
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Pinewood74] [ In reply to ]
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Pinewood74 wrote:
The majors are absolutely not on equal footing in golf.

As a former PGA Professional........I'd love to hear you expound on this.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [timbasile] [ In reply to ]
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There is a lot of truth, and it's like I said....what sport is out there that what is best for the best brand isn't always whats best for the sport overall? And I'm not saying that as a bad thing, because the reality is what Canuck said on the very 1st thing.....Kona is a BUSINESS DECISION for WTC. And that's perfectly ok, and in reality this is a case of this isn't WTC's problem as much as a sport itself problem. And I think that's the gist of the whole post Kiley talks about. WTC is just hanging the fruit out there, and we all as a sport are jumping over each other trying to grab that fruit as fast as we can. We have put so much into Kona and it's value, that we have pretty much nothing else out there (atleast for LC). WTC is just providing something that we all want now. And so good on them for that, I'm not knocking that. What I'm knocking is that by doing that, and claiming yourself as the world championship, you limit who can compete for the best in the world if your race is the same location and same climate. So that's all I'm saying; if WC has to stay in Kona....great....just accept it's limiting the nature of the fields that can compete for the actual win that rotating it around would help solve that issue.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Last-offtheBike] [ In reply to ]
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Last-offtheBike wrote:
How many have ever qualified but not claimed the slot
I have a puncher's chance at a KQ, and have raced 70.3 WC, but I would not take a Kona slot for a number of the reasons in the OP. The spouse's support for this hobby is lukewarm at best, and I just couldn't justify the cost, vacation days, etc. for another IM-centric "vacation", all for destroying myself on that course. But I personally don't know anybody else who has ever declined a slot. I'm sure it's happened.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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It wouldn't take too much editing for me to rewrite this as an editorial on all the reasons I love Kona.

Coach of TriForce Triathlon Team

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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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The more I thought about his thread, I think there needs to be a clear distinction between the pro and AG experience at Kona where you points seem to blur them all together. They are--and should be--very different.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Ah, but it's not really that Kona is so important or so awful. It's just that (some) people really are that stupid.

Don't get me wrong, I know relatively little about Kona. I also don't care very much about Kona. I'm at a loss to understand why so many others do. The thing is, outside of Slowtwitch, I only know one triathlete with any aspirations to Kona. And I know quite a few triathletes. Slowtwitch is an echo chamber. Don't go thinking that Slowtwitch sensibilities represent the masses. Or do they? Certainly not the masses I know.

Those who obsess over Kona Ironman, Boston Marathon, or some other idolised event, are idiots with no sense of perspective. They tend to be the same people who repeatedly refer to themselves as a type A personality.

I find it hard to avoid the conclusion that these people are using these events as a proxy for the lack of some real substance in their life. More TV, more consumerism, more social media = more need for something that seems substantial and valuable. Many turn to a tough sporting event. The more "iconic" the better.

To say something like "Kona is more than a triathlon, it is triathlon" is to insult all non-insane triathletes. I enjoy triathlon. I'll continue to do so regardless of what happens year to year at Kona. It's not on my radar except for the occasional thread on ST. Let's move on, shall we........
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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I'd like to see a solution to both 'the too many people on one course' and '50 women' issues by having two WC events within a couple weeks of each-other, situated in Europe on a cooler but still difficult course. Say, Wales? One year men go to wales, women to Kona and switch out every year.

808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [TriDevilDog] [ In reply to ]
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In defense of Kona and Triathlon in general - it is one of the most accessible championships anywhere, despite the costs and distance. Good luck getting a tee time at the US Open, or a court at Wimbledon. I was at the Olympics last summer and never met a single athlete - let alone got a chance to run around in my underwear with them. $5,000 would probably buy you a seat behind home plate for the World Series, for one game - maybe you get a foul ball.


With respect you are blurring the lines here between, Elite/Pro level of competition and Age-Group/Masters competition.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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I harbored a lot of these same feelings. I wrote some - but not all - in an editorial on this site back in 2011. In 2012, though, I got bit by the Kona bug, in large part because - at that point - I had come to a "what else is there?"

This is where I think the real challenge within the sport of triathlon of triathlon-as-elite-sport and triathlon-as-professional-sport starts to diverge. And this is really something that is largely unique to the pros. Any discussion of Kona needs to be split between pros and AGers. This split became even more marked when the KPR was introduced, because then the whole "KPR chase" for qualification really changed the nature of the race for pros as compared with AG slots.

Beyond that, of course, exists the dichotomy that's always existed - that Kona represents, in many ways, the dividing line between the "haves" and "have nots" in the pro ranks. Though I think a large part of this is self-fulfilling prophecy. Most pros I talk to say that your world changes once you are a top-10 in Kona. But most sponsors I talk to disagree and say only a podium performance really changes things, and really only a win will totally change how you are regarded. In this sense, I do think many pros go to Kona thinking that a good - but not great - result will get them a lot more than it likely actually will in practice, from a business standpoint.

But the business argument about Kona is - and pretty much always has been - a poor one. But this is where the business-v-elite-sport part becomes a challenge. The "smart" business decision for almost every pro is to not go to Kona. But if you are a highly competitive elite athlete, where else would you want to race?

I've been to Kona four times. I should have only gone twice - 2012 & 2015. But I do not have regrets about going in 2013 & 2016, because I think I went for the right reasons. Those were the years that - on balance (in particular 2016) - made me realize that it wasn't a race that I needed to do again. A career in professional sport is not always about making the "safe" decision. It wasn't my decision to race Kona in any of those years that I regret. It was more the decisions that I made in the lead up to Kona. And if Kona wasn't such a hard race, it wouldn't have exposed that bad decision making process. And that's less about "I can use this information to have a better race in Kona next time." It's much more about "I can use this information to make better decisions in general. Both as an athlete and beyond."

I do agree that I'm probably too much of a head-case to have ever really thrived in Kona. It's a race where you have to believe you can do well in the face of overwhelming odds that you will not, something that's never been my strong suit. I've always had more reasons why I shouldn't have done well. I'm too pragmatic, though that's served me plenty well in other areas of my life and career as well. But I only had a bad swim there once... Wink

Society has always had an overwhelming blindspot with regards to survivorship bias. We never hear the stories of those who are chewed up by the process that rewards those who make it. But so what? Would we listen even if we heard those stories? Probably not. We tend to learn best by doing and experiencing lessons - even really obvious ones like, "you probably won't do well in Kona (or any other highly-competitive-event)."

I do agree with the cliche that, "the definition of insanity is making the same mistake over and over." But I also think life is about more than only picking the battles you know you can win...

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting read

My ego would love to do Kona again and I think Kona and all the spin around it fuels the ego of many (including me)

My non-ego (let’s call it my heart and soul) doesn’t care about Kona at all, Kona is actually a danger
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Except here is where the Wimbledon analogue fails......Wimbledon as great as it is, is accepted as it is because pros have 3 other chances to win "majors". So while Wimbledon may be the "big one", there is a big one in France on another surface, and there is a "major" for the Americans to win, etc. So in reality tennis has 4 "world championships", and you're arguing slight semantics at that point of which one is more important. Where as Kona is the only one you get and it's setup is limiting. So everyone has to go for Kona because it's the only big one, even if you know going in you'll always suck because the setup isn't to your liking. Just like the pros who play all 4 majors simply knowing that getting to a quarterfinal at a grass court when your playing style sucks on grass is a great accomplishment and then you can use that mo' when the major goes to your "advantage".
So Canuck talking about Wimbledon not moving to Brazil....it doesn't need to move to Brazil, because the sport realizes that each major has it's own set of unique circumstances and advantages, and that with the 4 majors, everyone can basically play to their strength. That doesn't happen with Kona. But pros show up anyway because it's the epicenter and their sponsors demand they do it, and even if they know going in your going in with longer odds, but you do it because it's your profession.

The four tennis majors aren't equal. A player like Nadal can win 10 French Opens but if he had never won Wimby then he would not be considered one of the greatest. The order of importance goes Wimbledon, U.S. Open, French Open, Aussie Open. The Aussies might debate whether their tourney is more prestigious than the French, but no tennis player will dispute that Wimby is the most important tournament.

Getting back to tri, I think the ITU World Championships (Oly Dist) and the ITU Long Dist Champs are arguably "major championships" in the tri world, so maybe three majors in tri vs 4 in tennis. Further, I think the ITU draft-legal format favors a certain type of athlete vs Kona, so we have an analogy to the tennis grass courts vs clay courts, although recent events in Kona are hinting that the ITU guys may soon dominate iron racing as well as Oly dist.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kevincoady] [ In reply to ]
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kevincoady wrote:
It wouldn't take too much editing for me to rewrite this as an editorial on all the reasons I love Kona.

would love to read that thread. please do this
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [ou8acracker2] [ In reply to ]
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ou8acracker2 wrote:

I dont know how you cold weather or dry weather folks do it. Ive raced some oly distances in the Keys and I might as well have been in the dang amazon rain forest. I didnt know I was capable of the amount of sweat I lost

I raced a half in Key West a few years ago... coming from ice/snow/winter where I live... it was only in the 80s and a "nice day" there but it was a tough run. The winner was from the Miami area and I remember seeing him on the first lap from the turn, he looked great and I wasn't doing so hot. Went from a podium spot to winning my AG and only race I've ever had to stop to walk, vomit, etc.


On thread topic, Kona isn't my thing either, the cost to get there just sort of kills it for me. I have a lot of tri friends that went to Kona again this year and some had good races but the field is so competitive you have to be close to 9 hours to be close to the top. I wilt in heat/humidity so I know that run would smash me. The mass start with so many other fast athletes is a buzz kill for me too. One friend wrote a race report and the swim was an hour or so of full contact sparring.


While Kona and IM distance isn't for me, I don't begrudge that are all about it... more power to them!
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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gary p wrote:
ericmulk wrote:


I don't think you have to do long course tri, or even tri at all, to become addicted to your daily workout. An hour or so of swimming, running, or cycling, done every day for several years can become very addictive over time.


I know a lot of adult amateur athletes, many of whom display addict-like characteristics towards their training. I've been guilty myself at times when training up for USMS Nationals. None are consumed like the long-course triathletes I know, though, especially those who are focused on Kona.

You prob have a point there and of course the irony is that everyone needs a day off every so often, which the true addicts never take.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [timbasile] [ In reply to ]
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timbasile wrote:
The coverage too, is too focused on the "top American" even if they're in 7th or 4th or 31st. Even in Canada, where we get NBC, I can't get the Kona broadcast because of programming rights.

To grow the sport, I believe they're going to need to rotate the venue to create a truly global sport/brand, but to do so they'd need to take short term risk. I'm not sure they're ready to do that.

Top Pros are coming from the Europe but the main AG mass is still from the US, coverage is fixed on growing and maintaining these numbers to secure it stays with them.Should the corporation see big numbers coming from the Asian market it will surely shift/rotate in order to accommodate and even grow
Roth & Samorin provide world championships for the EU,RSA is exited about the 70.3 WC (nice move) and Asia awaiting there turn
Agree 100% that they need to create a global brand,some sort of research/planning must be going on, I hope
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kevincoady] [ In reply to ]
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kevincoady wrote:
It wouldn't take too much editing for me to rewrite this as an editorial on all the reasons I love Kona.

This ^^^^^^^^^

I think this is the way of sport -- really the way of life -- the human condition. Back in the day when I played golf (poorly), I could have penned a kileyay-esque takedown as to how stupid the sport is -- and yet, if there wasn't an attraction, the essay would make no sense. The whole idea of sport is stupid. Why does anybody care about it? Why does anybody care about chasing a white ball around a pasture? Why does anybody care about smacking a ball over a net? Getting an oblong ball across the goal line? Getting a sphere to go through a hoop? Biking and running 138.2 across a tropical lava field in the mid Pacific? The only answer I can come up with is that we care because we care. We care because a tradition built up that created a mass hysteria that we buy into.

An essay like kileyay's could be written by someone whose relationship with the sport (in this case chasing a Kona slot/racing at Kona/cheering for pros at Kona) is irredeemably broken; it could be written by someone who only thinks it is irredeemably broken; it could be written by someone who is still is completely in love with the sport, but the sport is not reciprocating that love -- but in any case it could't be written by someone who was never in love with it -- and it could never be appreciated like it can be by others who share the love hate relationship with that sport (or, to a lesser degree, any other sport).

At any rate, I haven't fallen out of love with this Kona sport (at least not yet) for many of the reasons in the OP.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Velocibuddha] [ In reply to ]
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Velocibuddha wrote:
Kona might be a good test of "toughness" for the Pros.

For aspiring AG podiums it seems to be a good test of two things:
1) Ability draft (NOT legal drafting)- you gain 15 to 20 minutes if you don't get caught CHEATING, you only 10 to 15 minutes if you do get caught CHEATING.
2) Ability to run well in the humidity.

This is not the greatest test of overall 140.6 racing ability.

I fixed it. I think it's just easier to cut the course, it's the same anyway.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
But the business argument about Kona is - and pretty much always has been - a poor one. But this is where the business-v-elite-sport part becomes a challenge. The "smart" business decision for almost every pro is to not go to Kona. But if you are a highly competitive elite athlete, where else would you want to race?

Would love to hear about the pressures that sponsors do (or don't) place on their pros to race Kona (those with the KPR points). I'd bet there's more pressure from a pro's sponsors than an AG sponsor. Is that something that is in pro contracts? Do racers from Team EMJ, Wattie, Zoot, etc. get "pressured" to race?
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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jkhayc wrote:
kevincoady wrote:
It wouldn't take too much editing for me to rewrite this as an editorial on all the reasons I love Kona.


would love to read that thread. please do this

done http://forum.slowtwitch.com/.../?page=unread#unread

Coach of TriForce Triathlon Team

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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Only fools pay 1000 bucks for a race they already qualified for. Kudos to WTC for milking the Kona-Cow and I reckon there is enough stupidity around that it will take time until it will bleed dry.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [hugoagogo] [ In reply to ]
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An essay like kileyay's could be written by someone whose relationship with the sport (in this case chasing a Kona slot/racing at Kona/cheering for pros at Kona) is irredeemably broken; it could be written by someone who only thinks it is irredeemably broken; it could be written by someone who is still is completely in love with the sport, but the sport is not reciprocating that love -- but in any case it could't be written by someone who was never in love with it -- and it could never be appreciated like it can be by others who share the love hate relationship with that sport (or, to a lesser degree, any other sport).

There is so much that does not make ANY sense about Kona, aka Ironman Hawaii, aka, The Ironman World Championships - but it's evolved over time to be what it is, and play the role that it plays in the sport of triathlon. For a large part of the triathlon community, it is a focal point for that few days of the year in October.

I do think that it's at some form of peak, whatever your perspective, and may start to slide in years to come. But this will for sure not be seen for at least another year. Next year is the 40th anniversary, and there has already been talk of BIG things for next year. Interest will be high naturally going into next year, and next year, may seem even more off-the-scale than in the last few years, but that is to be expected with significant anniversaries.


If a slide is to be noticeable, it will now not be until 2019!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [hugoagogo] [ In reply to ]
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At any rate, I haven't fallen out of love with this Kona sport (at least not yet) for many of the reasons in the OP.


As a comment to my own post and an insight into my personality -- through all the decades when I would have been fully justified in writing a kyleyay-like essay, I never fell out of love with the Cubbies and that made last year so, so sweet.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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the only rewards that matter are the ones that come from within and an event like Kona has a way of disguising that. But if you don't lose sight of it I can only imagine how internally rewarding it could be...
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [BrentwoodTriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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You race at the pointy end for a few years but if you don't get that KQ, you're nothing to anyone who races Ironman and people who don't even understand the sport (i.e. have you done that one in Hawaii).

I think that's one of the biggest problems, people trying to qualify because it is the best known race. It's natural to feel that way but if more people did triathlons for their own challenge and not to impress others, Kona would struggle to fill the slots.

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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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I have not read all response here, I do agree with a lot of what you said. But I do think the fact thats its not easy to have a good race there makes it more of a challenge. I am coming from the personal standpoint of being 0-2 now at Kona and I want more then ever to go back and have a good marathon on the Queen K. Maybe my mentality just feeds into what you are saying to?

2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [BBLOEHR] [ In reply to ]
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All this Kona hype is your fault
Yes you all stop talking about it or giving glory to it. How about hypingvroth more? It has more spectators, and just as stacked field since most top triathletes are European
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [BBLOEHR] [ In reply to ]
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BBLOEHR wrote:
I have not read all response here, I do agree with a lot of what you said. But I do think the fact thats its not easy to have a good race there makes it more of a challenge. I am coming from the personal standpoint of being 0-2 now at Kona and I want more then ever to go back and have a good marathon on the Queen K. Maybe my mentality just feeds into what you are saying to?

And that is what they are hoping, which nothing wrong with that, but clearly you have to admit it is an OCD focus.

Was just talking to a friend today about this. IMO, anyone who walks the run on an IM did a very poor job of racing. Again, I could care less about ones bike times. When I did IMLT 2013, some say I sucked on the bike. Came off in 700th place.
I passed 400 folks on the run, never walked, and ended up with the fastest run time in my AG, and 6th OA. I thought I had paced the race perfectly for my genetics and skills.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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synthetic wrote:
All this Kona hype is your fault
Yes you all stop talking about it or giving glory to it. How about hypingvroth more? It has more spectators, and just as stacked field since most top triathletes are European

Why do people attempt to summit mountains? Why do people attempt to reach the top of Mountains they have failed to summit in the past? Its similar situation from a mental standpoint. Hell those guys are risking there lives, at least if Kona does not go well you can go have poke the next day and a nice cup of coffee. I get it some people seem to hate the idea of Kona and what it stands for, for me its actually the reason I got into the sport.

2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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You're absolutely right. There's Kona, but there is also Roth. And there's ITU Long WC, which rotates (Denmark this year). Then there are 70.3 Worlds, which also rotate.

Well before I ever thought about triathlon I used to climb rockfaces. And in climbing, there are K2 and Everest, which are obviously the pinnacle of that sport. They're ridiculously expensive to attempt and kill a lot of people. But nobody looks down on people who climb some gnarly difficult and dangerous thing in Europe or Alaska or wherever, because those are people who've put themselves out on the line. Same thing with a 'short distance' climber who knocks out a 5.13d, which is a completely different challenge.

Thing is: are the races above equal? Who says they're not? It's entirely a matter of perspective, and the way in which so many triathletes have aligned themselves with a company which does not promote the interests of triathlon is interesting.

As for triathlon itself, if we were to take the stoic approach of naming things as they are, we'd call this men and women running around for no other reason than to make themselves feel good. A particularly public and strenuous form of self-pleasure, with Kona the most public and strenuous version.

'It never gets easier, you just get crazier.'
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [nc452010] [ In reply to ]
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nc452010 wrote:
Pinewood74 wrote:
The majors are absolutely not on equal footing in golf.

As a former PGA Professional........I'd love to hear you expound on this.

I'll just let your former co-workers make the point for me: https://www.google.com/...vents-2016-17-season[/url]

Quote:
Asked which major they'd most like to win, players in the annual Sports Illustrated survey place the Masters atop the list, double-digit percentage points above the runner-up.

I think you've got a good list of events in triathlon that could be "majors," it's just the sport is still in its infancy and no one has formerly titled them as such. Kona will always be your Wimbledon/Masters, but as ericmulk said we could rope the two ITU championships and then a good case exists for Roth being a 4th one as well since a lot of pros show up to that.

If we start referring to them as such, it can happen. Kona doesn't have to be the only "peak"(to borrow the climber terms), but it will always be the Everest. (Even if a peak like K2 is more challenging or prestigious for those in the community)
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [georged] [ In reply to ]
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georged wrote:
You're absolutely right. There's Kona, but there is also Roth. And there's ITU Long WC, which rotates (Denmark this year). Then there are 70.3 Worlds, which also rotate.

Well before I ever thought about triathlon I used to climb rockfaces. And in climbing, there are K2 and Everest, which are obviously the pinnacle of that sport. They're ridiculously expensive to attempt and kill a lot of people. But nobody looks down on people who climb some gnarly difficult and dangerous thing in Europe or Alaska or wherever, because those are people who've put themselves out on the line. Same thing with a 'short distance' climber who knocks out a 5.13d, which is a completely different challenge.

Thing is: are the races above equal? Who says they're not? It's entirely a matter of perspective, and the way in which so many triathletes have aligned themselves with a company which does not promote the interests of triathlon is interesting.

As for triathlon itself, if we were to take the stoic approach of naming things as they are, we'd call this men and women running around for no other reason than to make themselves feel good. A particularly public and strenuous form of self-pleasure, with Kona the most public and strenuous version.
I like your analysis!
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Pinewood74] [ In reply to ]
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The only problem is that for the moment Kona is the only major that matters (+/- 70.3WC), and the KPR ensures that any pro whose spot isn't guaranteed will focus on WTC races to ensure they get a ticket to that major. Sure, the top 10 or 15 might have a go at ITU or Roth, but that's a luxury that most pros chasing Kona can't afford.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Pinewood74] [ In reply to ]
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I do have to laugh at the idea that in golf the 4 majors apparently are not even close and then same person brings up itu world long course as should be a “majorâ€. Itu long course worlds is 2nd rate compared to Kona or short course worlds. That’s not even debatable to be considered a top 3/4 event in sport.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [BBLOEHR] [ In reply to ]
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So when you do conquer the marathon in Hawaii do you move on and set another goal or just keep trying to KQ and try to out do your PB there? You’ve knocked out the big three, Boston, Kona and 70.3 WC. What’ll be next?
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
I do have to laugh at the idea that in golf the 4 majors apparently are not even close and then same person brings up itu world long course as should be a “majorâ€. Itu long course worlds is 2nd rate compared to Kona or short course worlds. That’s not even debatable to be considered a top 3/4 event in sport.

Then what are the top 4 annual events in the sport?
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Pinewood74] [ In reply to ]
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Easily Kona, ITU SC Worlds, 70.3 worlds, Roth are far superior than ITU LC World's. Go look at the start lists/media coverage of LC world's. I'm not say that as a negative, I'm saying that in Long course racing, WTC has no equal with both 70.3 worlds and Kona....maybe Roth. But certainly not ITU LC world's, and any saying it should be a "major" has no understanding of the sport.

ETA: I'm not knocking ITU Long Course world's either. I'm saying that as a sport, we have decided Kona is far superior to a "world championship" event than ITU, that goes for media coverage/athlete's racing/pro fields. Now I love that it moves around (just as 70.3 worlds now moves around). But to say ITU LC World's should be a "major" if we just all say it and believe it...not going to happen. The sport has spoken, Kona (and WTC) takes the cake for long course racing.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Oct 27, 17 7:42
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Easily Kona, ITU SC Worlds, 70.3 worlds, Roth are far superior than ITU LC World's. Go look at the start lists/media coverage of LC world's. I'm not say that as a negative, I'm saying that in Long course racing, WTC has no equal with both 70.3 worlds and Kona....maybe Roth. But certainly not ITU LC world's, and any saying it should be a "major" has no understanding of the sport.

ETA: I'm not knocking ITU Long Course world's either. I'm saying that as a sport, we have decided Kona is far superior to a "world championship" event than ITU, that goes for media coverage/athlete's racing/pro fields. Now I love that it moves around (just as 70.3 worlds now moves around). But to say ITU LC World's should be a "major" if we just all say it and believe it...not going to happen. The sport has spoken, Kona (and WTC) takes the cake for long course racing.

The problem with your selection is that you have mixed one short course event with 3 long course events ... sort of like replacing a marathon major with the Peachtree 10K or the Carlsbad 5K. It simply doesn't fit.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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HuffNPuff wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
Easily Kona, ITU SC Worlds, 70.3 worlds, Roth are far superior than ITU LC World's. Go look at the start lists/media coverage of LC world's. I'm not say that as a negative, I'm saying that in Long course racing, WTC has no equal with both 70.3 worlds and Kona....maybe Roth. But certainly not ITU LC world's, and any saying it should be a "major" has no understanding of the sport.

ETA: I'm not knocking ITU Long Course world's either. I'm saying that as a sport, we have decided Kona is far superior to a "world championship" event than ITU, that goes for media coverage/athlete's racing/pro fields. Now I love that it moves around (just as 70.3 worlds now moves around). But to say ITU LC World's should be a "major" if we just all say it and believe it...not going to happen. The sport has spoken, Kona (and WTC) takes the cake for long course racing.


The problem with your selection is that you have mixed one short course event with 3 long course events ... sort of like replacing a marathon major with the Peachtree 10K or the Carlsbad 5K. It simply doesn't fit.

More to our sport than long stuff. Now maybe that is why we have so many fat folks in the world, they never know when to stop. :)

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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Oh I can take out ITU SC, but because Erik originally said it was a "major" I was adding it in. But if you take out SC world's, no way ITU LC should replace it.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
HuffNPuff wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
Easily Kona, ITU SC Worlds, 70.3 worlds, Roth are far superior than ITU LC World's. Go look at the start lists/media coverage of LC world's. I'm not say that as a negative, I'm saying that in Long course racing, WTC has no equal with both 70.3 worlds and Kona....maybe Roth. But certainly not ITU LC world's, and any saying it should be a "major" has no understanding of the sport.

ETA: I'm not knocking ITU Long Course world's either. I'm saying that as a sport, we have decided Kona is far superior to a "world championship" event than ITU, that goes for media coverage/athlete's racing/pro fields. Now I love that it moves around (just as 70.3 worlds now moves around). But to say ITU LC World's should be a "major" if we just all say it and believe it...not going to happen. The sport has spoken, Kona (and WTC) takes the cake for long course racing.


The problem with your selection is that you have mixed one short course event with 3 long course events ... sort of like replacing a marathon major with the Peachtree 10K or the Carlsbad 5K. It simply doesn't fit.


More to our sport than long stuff. Now maybe that is why we have so many fat folks in the world, they never know when to stop. :)

There's more to tennis than singles, but you wouldn't mix Wimbledon, the U.S. Open, the French Open, and the Australian Doubles. Feel free to come up with your top 4 short course majors.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Half the problem with everyone coming away from Kona disappointed is that most triathletes (Pro and Age Group alike) are delusional. They come in with big expectations, big egos and a deluded view of their own ability, then they race and reality hits them but they refuse to recognise this reality and make up a ton of excuses to explain it away.

Just watch the Breakfast with Bob interviews pre race and listen to the pros that are deluding themselves. You bring up the Hoff but he is a prime example, Hoff and TO were talking about getting ready to run 2.40 just because Lange did it the previous year............. you only have to look at the size of them compared to Lange to know that neither of them is running 2.40 in Kona.

Age groupers in general are even worse at deluding themselves, even the very best of them are 45 mins slower than the winner. They're irrelevant to the race but they think they're not.

Having said all this I think that Kona is absolutely awesome! I watched the coverage for 9 hours straight and I was glued to my seat, same every year, I love it! The best athletes in the world going head to head in horrific conditions, most of them blowing up and the strongest few left standing. Whats not to love about that? They can move the WC designation if they like but the best Pro's and AG'ers alike will all still head to Kona for the big dance every year.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Easily Kona, ITU SC Worlds, 70.3 worlds, Roth are far superior than ITU LC World's. Go look at the start lists/media coverage of LC world's. I'm not say that as a negative, I'm saying that in Long course racing, WTC has no equal with both 70.3 worlds and Kona....maybe Roth. But certainly not ITU LC world's, and any saying it should be a "major" has no understanding of the sport.

ETA: I'm not knocking ITU Long Course world's either. I'm saying that as a sport, we have decided Kona is far superior to a "world championship" event than ITU, that goes for media coverage/athlete's racing/pro fields. Now I love that it moves around (just as 70.3 worlds now moves around). But to say ITU LC World's should be a "major" if we just all say it and believe it...not going to happen. The sport has spoken, Kona (and WTC) takes the cake for long course racing.

you forgot the olympics in your list ;-)
the male start list santorini with sanders , kienle a brownlee , r murray was prob more excitng than the 70.3 worlds this year .
roth is still a major race but since they cut the pro price purse in half the pro field besdies one or 2 headliner each year is not that strong anymore as it used to be. one could argue in the last 5 years frankurt more often than not had a deeper pro field.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Oh I can take out ITU SC, but because Erik originally said it was a "major" I was adding it in. But if you take out SC world's, no way ITU LC should replace it.

I agree with you that it isn't quite on the same level as the other 3 long course events, but it is the next one in line if you are looking for 4 LC majors. Didn't this years #2 at Kona win it in August? Didn't Chrissie win it? Didn't Macca win it? Simon Lessing, Greg Welch, Luc Van Lierde, and a pile of greats on the women's side have all found it worthy of their time. "Losers" at ITU World Long Course Champs include Crowie, T.O., Rinny, and heaps of other notables. It is competitive. If you are looking for 4 majors at the long course distance, then Kona, Roth, IM70.3 WC and ITU LC Worlds is probably the right answer.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
I do have to laugh at the idea that in golf the 4 majors apparently are not even close and then same person brings up itu world long course as should be a “majorâ€. Itu long course worlds is 2nd rate compared to Kona or short course worlds. That’s not even debatable to be considered a top 3/4 event in sport.

Brooks, you silly boy, have you not learned anything yet??? Lionel won the ITU LC Worlds this year and on this forum there was a thread proclaiming that Lionel is now a "World Champion"; therefore, the ITU LC Worlds must be considered a "major" race in tri from here on out.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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Well just agree to disagree on the "competiveness" on ITU LC World's. Want to make a quick $100....tell me in 50 guesses who won 2016 world's men's race.....In the last 5 years itu world's hasnt even gotten on the pro side 25 field averages. Sure some big names have raced it. Would LS have raced it if it was in Denmark this year...i'll wager no. Would Andy Potts have raced it if it wasn't in Canada? LC World's is a very cherry picking race imo based on the start lists for these guys. Which is sorta my point. It's an after thought.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Well just agree to disagree on the "competiveness" on ITU LC World's. Want to make a quick $100....tell me in 50 guesses who won 2016 world's men's race.....In the last 5 years itu world's hasnt even gotten on the pro side 25 field averages. Sure some big names have raced it. Would LS have raced it if it was in Denmark this year...i'll wager no. Would Andy Potts have raced it if it wasn't in Canada? LC World's is a very cherry picking race imo based on the start lists for these guys. Which is sorta my point. It's an after thought.

Hell, I looked it up and never heard of him...although I recognized #3. But on the other hand, when it comes to Short Course worlds, if ain't Gomez or a Brownlee, then I'm out of guesses.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Dan The Man] [ In reply to ]
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Age groupers in general are even worse at deluding themselves, even the very best of them are 45 mins slower than the winner. They're irrelevant to the race but they think they're not.


When I was in Kona this year, as we normally, do, we ride as little on the Queen-K as possible - so much other great cycling in the area.

However, when I was riding on the stretch out to Mauna Lani, I was paying very close attention to a few things. That first 90 min to two hours on the bike is when, so many deep-six themselves.

IMH has a deep and competitive swim field. To hang in here many have to over-swim, and I am sure many do. Then it's onto the bike other than the climb up Palani, the bike course is all very gradual ups and downs all the way out to Mauna Lani and even until the left turn to Kawahaie. You are pumped up, well tapered, feeling good, and wanting to again, like the swim, hang in there on the bike. It's often calm early, sometimes a bit of a tail wind. Despite all this, I'm sure, that on a number of the gradual, false flat rises, many are way-over-watted. But they are feeling so good, it does not really register with them. The first inkling that they may be in over their head, happens past Waikola where some head-winds may kick in, or on the climb up to Hawi where you again start to realize that the legs may not be feeling so good.

Make the turn at Hawi and for the first little bit out of Hawi you may feel like Superman - with tailwind and a slight down-hill. Then those winds shift around to gusting side or even head-winds. You get a brief respite from the wind for about 2K for the climb back up from the port at Kawahaie to the Queen-K, but with that tail-wind and the slower speed, and effort from the climb, it feels like you are riding in a furnace!!

Then you are back on the Queen K and in "normal" conditions for Kona now facing headwinds almost all the way back to T2 - this is where most people's race REALLY starts to fall apart - and they still have perhaps 2 hours of riding to go BEFORE they even get to the marathon!

All of the above is why so few, close well on the bike here, or run well at all in Kona - they are completely cooked by the 2/3 mark of the bike!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Dan The Man] [ In reply to ]
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Dan The Man wrote:
Half the problem with everyone coming away from Kona disappointed is that most triathletes (Pro and Age Group alike) are delusional. They come in with big expectations, big egos and a deluded view of their own ability, then they race and reality hits them but they refuse to recognise this reality and make up a ton of excuses to explain it away. Just watch the Breakfast with Bob interviews pre race and listen to the pros that are deluding themselves. You bring up the Hoff but he is a prime example, Hoff and TO were talking about getting ready to run 2.40 just because Lange did it the previous year............. you only have to look at the size of them compared to Lange to know that neither of them is running 2.40 in Kona.
Age groupers in general are even worse at deluding themselves, even the very best of them are 45 mins slower than the winner. They're irrelevant to the race but they think they're not.
Having said all this I think that Kona is absolutely awesome! I watched the coverage for 9 hours straight and I was glued to my seat, same every year, I love it! The best athletes in the world going head to head in horrific conditions, most of them blowing up and the strongest few left standing. Whats not to love about that? They can move the WC designation if they like but the best Pro's and AG'ers alike will all still head to Kona for the big dance every year.

You've hit the nail here; I've always thought that every competitor must race their own race. This year we learned that even Frodo can blow up, and Lionel also blew to some degree, being out-run by 2:27 over the last 3 miles. Everyone has to be very realistic about what kind of pace they can hold on the bike, erring on the conservative side, and still have enough juice for a good run.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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A lot of people are arguing passionately from their own perspective.

"Well Kona would be an awesome victory lap and an awesome vacation (if I could/do qualify)...... so Kona is awesome."

"Kona is an incredibly frustrating race to try to do well in and feel good about yourself (because of the accidental/deliberate drafting and the unique conditions)....... so Kona sucks."

Yes- both things are true
Last edited by: Velocibuddha: Oct 27, 17 9:34
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Switch the name don’t switch the name…people get immediately defensive when intelligence is obvious. I think it may forefront insecurities but I don’t know.

I think Foucault might key in on the power of discourse to discipline – or act on our actions – us and produce “Kona.†To quote the great Foucault “power is its most powerful when it no longer has to be practiced.†Meaning, we’ve come to think of Kona as such an ontological ‘thing’ that we now discipline ourselves based on this abstraction (a la Marx).

So the circle jerk (and you’re so right about that) continues to get - I’ll say worse to avoid being crude. Worse meaning more powerful as it has successfully co-opted a once grassroots thing (see punk rock, skateboarding, parkour, etc). People are so narrative driven they don’t see this process or perhaps don’t want to recognize it – it stays powerful because this influence happens to someone else, “I’m exempt from influence because, well, I’m meâ€. And, like anything that must grow to maintain/sustain its hold on us, the goal post has to move – think aero water bottle covers. Thus, like you said, after you realized the dream it was back to self-doubt, etc. But, and back to Foucault - power moves to counteract its subversion.

It’s really difficult to subvert an ideology.

Tyra Banks telling us to love ourselves for how we look, the Red Sox going on Queer Eye only after they won the series, you telling us the race sucks only after you’ve done it. What will it take to subvert the great Kona? Or is that just another powerful narrative reifying the commodity fetish (e.g. Lukacs)?

Perhaps that is a conversation for a cold beer or cup of bleach. I applaud your courage, sir.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Well just agree to disagree on the "competiveness" on ITU LC World's. Want to make a quick $100....tell me in 50 guesses who won 2016 world's men's race.....In the last 5 years itu world's hasnt even gotten on the pro side 25 field averages. Sure some big names have raced it. Would LS have raced it if it was in Denmark this year...i'll wager no. Would Andy Potts have raced it if it wasn't in Canada? LC World's is a very cherry picking race imo based on the start lists for these guys. Which is sorta my point. It's an after thought.

All your insisting on putting ITU LC on a second tier has kind of made my point. There do exist majors. You're putting Roth and ITU SC up with the two IM events.

One can debate to kingdom come whether SC vs. LC is the difference between Singles and Doubles in tennis or between Clay, Grass, and Hard Surface, but the point is that when you draw a clear line in prestige, you include other races up there with Kona and Kona is just the Augusta or Wimbledon of Tri (LC or overall), not the only major.

@pk They left off the Olympics because the question I asked was regarding annual competitions.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Dan The Man] [ In reply to ]
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Dan The Man wrote:
Having said all this I think that Kona is absolutely awesome! I watched the coverage for 9 hours straight and I was glued to my seat, same every year, I love it! The best athletes in the world going head to head in horrific conditions, most of them blowing up and the strongest few left standing. Whats not to love about that? They can move the WC designation if they like but the best Pro's and AG'ers alike will all still head to Kona for the big dance every year.

Not a chance! The pros will go where the money is and if the WC title leaves Kona, they aren't going to shred themselves for some now-meaningless race. Your comment reminds me of when Chicago and NYC Marathon first started paying money (and becoming vastly more competitive) while at the same time the Boston Marathon insisted that they would remain amateur and that the best would continue to race at Boston because of their history and prestige ... until it became painfully and embarrassingly obvious in 1985 ( that if they didn't establish a prize structure they were about a year or two away from being nothing more than a people's marathon, and a vastly diminished one at that. They started paying in 1986. Take away the WC title and Kona goes the same route.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Pinewood74] [ In reply to ]
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If that's what you want to think fair enough. Do I think Roth is on par with Kona and 70.3 is on par with Kona....no I dont. You asked me 3-4 events to make up a "major" of tris.....i gave you those 3. I think Kona is by far and away a much bigger race and prestige then even Roth or 70.3 worlds (which is 1 of 3 "world championships" LC events- itu, IM, 70.3). So do I think tri has "majors" like golf/tennis does...nope. But if you think it does and Kona is fine staying at Kona because the Master's or Wimbledon doesn't move either....fair enough.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [PennBen] [ In reply to ]
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Hello PennBen and All,

Your essay sounds like a paper for a philosophy class ... (meant in a nice way)

Thanks ..... I learned a new word 'reifying' that made me think a bit.

http://www.english.ufl.edu/...n%20and%20Utopia.pdf

As to Kona WC ...... I think eventually China ..... as an ascendant nation and owner ..... will move Kona WC to China proper ..... for reasons of national prestige.

We should enjoy Kona and Madame Pele while we can .... it is very possible it will leave.



The age groupers follow the pros ..... and prizes would be established that lured the pros to China ...... and the age groupers would follow.

There would be a bit of weeping and wailing about 'tradition' ........ but a new 'Kona' would be established ..... in China.



And then we can talk about how great the 'old days' of Kona were ..... and they were.

Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster
Last edited by: nealhe: Oct 27, 17 12:52
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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I think all you fast mofos need to listen to Kiley and let the roll down go all the way down to 100 so I can have a chance to go. It really sucks and you should save your money.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [KingMidas] [ In reply to ]
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I have total respect for anyone doing Kona, but when I watched the race on NBCSN this year and they showed Daneila Ryf coming in at @ mile 22, I was surprised to see so many walkers heading the other way (at about mile 11). There were tons of them. I mean, it seemed like the majority of athletes were walking at that point. Maybe that's a difficult section of the course, but I was under the impression that Kona attracted the best and most well trained AG's in the world. When I saw so many walking, I found it pretty discouraging (in terms of my own aspirations). Don't get me wrong, total props and respect to anyone who has qualified or done Kona.

"The first virtue in a soldier is endurance of fatigue; courage is only the second virtue."
- Napoleon Bonaparte
Last edited by: Don_W: Oct 27, 17 13:08
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Don_W] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe that's a difficult section of the course, //

I believe that was up Palani hill, so probably the most difficult 3/8 mile of the course. So for sure there were tons of walkers there, a lot of pros even walk sections of it while cooling off and getting a drink..DOnt recall exactly, but maybe 10 to 13% grade??
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Don_W] [ In reply to ]
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remember that most AG that do qualify for Kona have already raced their "A" races, most of them not more than 6 months prior, so they are already fatigued, having spent several months training for the race that brought them to Kona. Other than maybe a group or 6-8 elite amateurs on each AG, a regular AG that does qualify for Kona is not training for it as his/her A Race, nor looking for a top spot (as there is nothing else to qualify for). most of them go for the experience, for the show, to be able to say that they were in Kona, to race with the Pros, but they are not training as hard as you would think... so most of them will not perform as well as they could...
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [nc452010] [ In reply to ]
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The majors are absolutely not on equal footing in golf.

As a former PGA Professional........I'd love to hear you expound on this.

They all count as a "major" but if you polled 150 PGA pros which major they would like to win, my bet is zero would pick the PGA. The Americans would pick the Masters or US Open, the Europeans and International players would pick the British Open or Masters.

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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
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As to Kona WC ...... I think eventually China ..... as an ascendant nation and owner ..... will move Kona WC to China proper ..... for reasons of national prestige.

And like everything else that happens when China takes over, it will be destroyed...

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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [hugoagogo] [ In reply to ]
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hugoagogo wrote:
An essay like kileyay's could be written by someone whose relationship with the sport (in this case chasing a Kona slot/racing at Kona/cheering for pros at Kona) is irredeemably broken; it could be written by someone who only thinks it is irredeemably broken; it could be written by someone who is still is completely in love with the sport, but the sport is not reciprocating that love -- but in any case it could't be written by someone who was never in love with it -- and it could never be appreciated like it can be by others who share the love hate relationship with that sport (or, to a lesser degree, any other sport).

This is an important point. I do love the sport -- that's why I posted this thread. We are wondering why the sport is declining. In my opinion the biggest force driving the decline is IRONMAN, among the middle of the pack, and Kona, among the pointy end athletes on these boards. And IRONMAN is Kona and Kona is IRONMAN. This sport is not supposed to ruin us, make us feel like shit, or, in the words of Jesse Thomas, "take years off my life". We are burning out our athletes and burning out our best athletes.

gary p wrote:
Some seem to get stuck in the vicious cycle of KQ pursuit, IMWC disappointment until they're broken physically, mentally, or financially to the point they can't continue the pursuit.

My relationship with triathlon was almost irredeemably broken. I took two years off and stepped right back into the mistake I made before, which was to sign up for IRONMAN. Because Kona. And then I realized how dumb it was for me to spend months of inordinately consuming training volume to get to the start line of a distance I don't even like -- an endurance event won by the person who slows down the least isn't my idea of racing -- to get back to the last place on earth where I want to do an IRONMAN where I get to spend a week with the most intolerable narcissists on earth. And for what? For this idea, promulgated by the most vicious and damaging profiteering organization in endurance sports and reinforced by a culture that glorifies and supports the foremost agent of its demise.

For such smart people, triathletes are not good at independent thinking or perspective when it comes to the culture they irrationally romanticize the worst elements of. Well, that's what this forum is for, and let me just tell you, pro or amateur alike, that it's okay. You don't have to go to Kona or do IRONMAN. In fact, it sucks! You don't have to do races that make you hate yourself and the sport that is supposed to uplift you on the days you spend your life preparing for.

If you want to see what Kona is like, go spectate. Relax and enjoy it and bring a road bike and ride all over the island. This will be a much much better experience. And you don't even have to qualify.

When I admitted all this to myself, I realized I had found the other side of fear. Wait, what?
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Sanuk] [ In reply to ]
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Hello Sanuk and All,


I am hoping for no destruction ..... but who knows?


China is very interested in international sports.


http://www.velonews.com/...p-ahead-china_450926




"NANNING, China (VN) — Will a Chinese rider win the Tour de France someday? Top professionals say the new Tour of Guangxi could be the first step to grow enthusiasm for WorldTour racing in China.


The People’s Republic of China, a country of 1.38 billion citizens, only counts one professional and maintains minimal links to the mostly European sport. The new WorldTour-level race in Guangxi, however, could change the situation."


Read more at http://www.velonews.com/...#EkWZXMwrQ51FR6RO.99

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubNRaDv7qxg

It appears we do a lot of business with China ...... Our largest trading partner.

https://ustr.gov/...oples-republic-china


U.S.-China Trade Facts


U.S. goods and services trade with China totaled an estimated $648.2 billion in 2016. Exports were $169.3 billion; imports were $478.9 billion. The U.S. goods and services trade deficit with China was $309.6 billion in 2016.

China is currently our largest goods trading partner with $578.6 billion in total (two way) goods trade during 2016. Goods exports totaled $115.8 billion; goods imports totaled $462.8 billion. The U.S. goods trade deficit with China was $347.0 billion in 2016.

Trade in services with China (exports and imports) totaled an estimated $69.6 billion in 2016. Services exports were $53.5 billion; services imports were $16.1 billion. The U.S. services trade surplus with China was $37.4 billion in 2016.

According to the Department of Commerce, U.S. exports of goods and services to China supported an estimated 911 thousand jobs in 2015 (latest data available) (601 thousand supported by goods exports and 309 thousand supported by services exports).

Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
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China is currently our largest goods trading partner with $578.6 billion in total (two way) goods trade during 2016. Goods exports totaled $115.8 billion; goods imports totaled $462.8 billion. The U.S. goods trade deficit with China was $347.0 billion in 2016.

Just because there is a lot of money to be made when dealing with China, doesn't necessarily mean it's a good idea. I lived in SE Asia for 3 years and saw first hand what it's like to live in a city dominated by Chinese businesses (Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, Philippines) and there is a big price to pay when they start taking over, particularly in terms of the control and power of their large corporations and in terms of the environment.

If we put profits ahead of everything like how the Chinese operate, we will see the impact in 20 years here too.

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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Sanuk] [ In reply to ]
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Hello Sanuk and All,

Sanuk wrote in part: "If we put profits ahead of everything like how the Chinese operate, we will see the impact in 20 years here too."

Call me cynical ..... but if that is the case .........

We're screwed!

(I lived in Japan, Okinawa, and the Philippines also ..... and traveled to China and many of the other Asian cities frequently for about 40 years ..... but last time I was in China was 15 years ago ..... so I will concede that you are likely more in touch with present conditions than me.)

Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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It would be interesting to get perspectives of those who have been around the sport since inception. Kona as the holy grail picked up world wide following the iron war year. In Australia this sparked awareness of those not involved in the sport.

Triathlon in the 90's and early 2000's was primarily OD and short course racing with one Iron Man race, Greg Welch and AG who tended to focus on Long course. Lots of people had limited or no interest in doing IM at all.

The IM brand has done a very good job of turning that on its head and most races are geared towards the Half and IM distance. Doing IM and dreaming of Kona are many peoples only experience of triathlon. We struggle to run local sprints and a regular race calendar.

I have seen many a person come into the sport dream of Kona and not really enjoy themselves. Kona as an objective is fine, maybe its not for everyone. Kona and IM is the dominant player in race supply making it harder for people to find other experiences.

Yes Kona and IM is a bit malignant, many of the locals in their 40's who would still give a good account of themselves have gone to bike racing and running and times are slowly moving out to over 10 hours for KQ so maybe it is changing.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [mike s] [ In reply to ]
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mike s wrote:
So when you do conquer the marathon in Hawaii do you move on and set another goal or just keep trying to KQ and try to out do your PB there? You’ve knocked out the big three, Boston, Kona and 70.3 WC. What’ll be next?

Easy: (in no particular order) Run sub 3 at Boston, Rim to Rim, Western States, Climb Denali with my brother, go sub 9 at a IM, and go back to Kona and keep trying to do better. Get back into surfing more when I have knocked all of those out. Kona for me is just iconic, some people will argue that thats media hype and the early NBC sports broadcast and stuff; but to me that shit matters and is what i grew up watching. Its a honor for me just to be in a position where I can go race Kona and live out that childhood dream. So I just don't see the point in bashing Kona, to each there own I guess.

2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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I have to give credit to anyone who can integrate a reference to Foucault in a triathlon thread, and double credit to anyone else who might get said reference. Nicely written. I especially appreciated the way your post screws with the reader by allowing both reader response and authorial intent interpreted responses.

"There are two ways to slide easily through life- to believe everything and to doubt everything- both ways save us from thinking "- Korzbyski
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Triathlon to me is very unique in that at least for LC, the leader of the sport is an private company, not an governing body. I don't know how many sports that is truly the case, where governing bodies essential bow to a private company. That's how powerful it is, and not saying that's bad. I'm just saying that when they have a gravy train like Kona, they have zero incentive to move it. But that's a different discussion than the "fairness" of having WC at same location every year (which is what I was mentioning earlier).

^^THIS

To say that Kona is a World Championship is completely arbitrary, but everyone buys into it. The only official WCs are those sanctioned by ITU.

Another private equity firm could start their own WC in a different location... if only they had a few billion $ to spend... On another note, it would be just as valid for any old local triathlon to call themselves a World Championship. Aside from attendance, history, and prestige, what makes their claim any less valid?

Ironman IS NOT triathlon. Triathlon is much more than Ironman. I would urge those who agree with the OP to consider an alternative to promote some healthy competition so WTC is not the only game in town forever.

_______________________________________________________
John Kenny, Pro Triathlete, USAT Certified Coach - http://www.frenchcreekracing.com
Philly Masters and Open Water
Swim and Multisport Events
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [jkenny5150] [ In reply to ]
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jkenny5150 wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:

Triathlon to me is very unique in that at least for LC, the leader of the sport is an private company, not an governing body. I don't know how many sports that is truly the case, where governing bodies essential bow to a private company. That's how powerful it is, and not saying that's bad. I'm just saying that when they have a gravy train like Kona, they have zero incentive to move it. But that's a different discussion than the "fairness" of having WC at same location every year (which is what I was mentioning earlier).


^^THIS

To say that Kona is a World Championship is completely arbitrary, but everyone buys into it. The only official WCs are those sanctioned by ITU.

Another private equity firm could start their own WC in a different location... if only they had a few billion $ to spend... On another note, it would be just as valid for any old local triathlon to call themselves a World Championship. Aside from attendance, history, and prestige, what makes their claim any less valid?

Ironman IS NOT triathlon. Triathlon is much more than Ironman. I would urge those who agree with the OP to consider an alternative to promote some healthy competition so WTC is not the only game in town forever.

Things are getting worse. It is interesting to not see any posts about changes to races with Rev 3 and IM. Lots of chatter that big changes may come in 2019 with races going away.

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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]
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Ai_1 wrote:
Ah, but it's not really that Kona is so important or so awful. It's just that (some) people really are that stupid.

Don't get me wrong, I know relatively little about Kona. I also don't care very much about Kona. I'm at a loss to understand why so many others do. The thing is, outside of Slowtwitch, I only know one triathlete with any aspirations to Kona. And I know quite a few triathletes. Slowtwitch is an echo chamber. Don't go thinking that Slowtwitch sensibilities represent the masses. Or do they? Certainly not the masses I know.

Those who obsess over Kona Ironman, Boston Marathon, or some other idolised event, are idiots with no sense of perspective. They tend to be the same people who repeatedly refer to themselves as a type A personality.

I find it hard to avoid the conclusion that these people are using these events as a proxy for the lack of some real substance in their life. More TV, more consumerism, more social media = more need for something that seems substantial and valuable. Many turn to a tough sporting event. The more "iconic" the better.

To say something like "Kona is more than a triathlon, it is triathlon" is to insult all non-insane triathletes. I enjoy triathlon. I'll continue to do so regardless of what happens year to year at Kona. It's not on my radar except for the occasional thread on ST. Let's move on, shall we........

Almost as spot on as the OP. Exactly my thoughts. I train and compete for a sense of personal satisfaction and I care about my own bottom line. I don't care much for bragging to people about it. Never been to Kona and it's not on my bucket list. If I ever go there it will be to ride my bike up Mauna Kea, not to race a WTC event.

_______________________________________________________
John Kenny, Pro Triathlete, USAT Certified Coach - http://www.frenchcreekracing.com
Philly Masters and Open Water
Swim and Multisport Events
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
I harbored a lot of these same feelings. I wrote some - but not all - in an editorial on this site back in 2011. In 2012, though, I got bit by the Kona bug, in large part because - at that point - I had come to a "what else is there?"

This is where I think the real challenge within the sport of triathlon of triathlon-as-elite-sport and triathlon-as-professional-sport starts to diverge. And this is really something that is largely unique to the pros. Any discussion of Kona needs to be split between pros and AGers. This split became even more marked when the KPR was introduced, because then the whole "KPR chase" for qualification really changed the nature of the race for pros as compared with AG slots.

Beyond that, of course, exists the dichotomy that's always existed - that Kona represents, in many ways, the dividing line between the "haves" and "have nots" in the pro ranks. Though I think a large part of this is self-fulfilling prophecy. Most pros I talk to say that your world changes once you are a top-10 in Kona. But most sponsors I talk to disagree and say only a podium performance really changes things, and really only a win will totally change how you are regarded. In this sense, I do think many pros go to Kona thinking that a good - but not great - result will get them a lot more than it likely actually will in practice, from a business standpoint.

But the business argument about Kona is - and pretty much always has been - a poor one. But this is where the business-v-elite-sport part becomes a challenge. The "smart" business decision for almost every pro is to not go to Kona. But if you are a highly competitive elite athlete, where else would you want to race?

I've been to Kona four times. I should have only gone twice - 2012 & 2015. But I do not have regrets about going in 2013 & 2016, because I think I went for the right reasons. Those were the years that - on balance (in particular 2016) - made me realize that it wasn't a race that I needed to do again. A career in professional sport is not always about making the "safe" decision. It wasn't my decision to race Kona in any of those years that I regret. It was more the decisions that I made in the lead up to Kona. And if Kona wasn't such a hard race, it wouldn't have exposed that bad decision making process. And that's less about "I can use this information to have a better race in Kona next time." It's much more about "I can use this information to make better decisions in general. Both as an athlete and beyond."

I do agree that I'm probably too much of a head-case to have ever really thrived in Kona. It's a race where you have to believe you can do well in the face of overwhelming odds that you will not, something that's never been my strong suit. I've always had more reasons why I shouldn't have done well. I'm too pragmatic, though that's served me plenty well in other areas of my life and career as well. But I only had a bad swim there once... Wink

Society has always had an overwhelming blindspot with regards to survivorship bias. We never hear the stories of those who are chewed up by the process that rewards those who make it. But so what? Would we listen even if we heard those stories? Probably not. We tend to learn best by doing and experiencing lessons - even really obvious ones like, "you probably won't do well in Kona (or any other highly-competitive-event)."

I do agree with the cliche that, "the definition of insanity is making the same mistake over and over." But I also think life is about more than only picking the battles you know you can win...

I stopped racing all WTC events when they went to the KPR system and raised the pro entry fees. Rev3 was putting up 5 times the prize purse at the time. Unfortunately, I can't think of a single other pro who did what I did... because it was virtually impossible to survive without WTC. Hence the reason I think their business model has been more destructive (than productive) for the sport as a whole.

_______________________________________________________
John Kenny, Pro Triathlete, USAT Certified Coach - http://www.frenchcreekracing.com
Philly Masters and Open Water
Swim and Multisport Events
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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A great post. Well done kileyay. I disagree with about 80 per cent of it, but I like your thinking.

A few random observations ...

* If you want to win Wimbledon - which I'd argue is the biggest event in tennis - you'd better be able to play well on grass and be prepared to visit London. Simples. If you want to win golf's biggest event, then hello Augusta, Georgia. The FA Cup is played at Wembley, the AFL grand final is always at the MCG. Sure, the World Series moves around, as does the Super Bowl, but this is triathlon and this is Kona (he types, shrugging his shoulders).
* I've never done Kona. I've finished one Ironman, in 12:59. So my outlook is going to be different to a lot of others on this forum and especially throughout this thread. But surely, if you get to Kona, your first time is all about just finishing. Who cares how long it takes. Just finish. What an achievement.
* If you keep coming back after that debut, you'd want to have a bloody good reason. Because inevitably, the race will chew you up and spit you out.
* As for the pros, well, I've been to Kona several times for work. I've spent plenty of time catching up with finishers at the hotel pool, out the back of the finish line. You see many, many pros there who are just devastated. People bawling their eyes out and looking like they're about to drop dead ... AFTER their IV! I wouldn't do what they do in a million years.
* Craig Alexander put it well once - some people are built to do well in Kona, some aren't.
* Some, like Chris McCormack or Mark Allen, can make the adjustments and become great at Kona. But a lot cannot. Guess what - it's a bloody tough race. And life is unfair.
* Attitude is everything. If you want to have a s..t time at Kona in race week, as a competitor or an onlooker, it's pretty easy to do. Having a great time can be harder, but it is possible ... most of the time.
* A member of our squad did Kona for the first time this year and he is so happy. He's a good bloke and we are all so happy for him. He prepared well, had his ducks in a row, was well-resourced and well-researched, didn't have any hideously-bad luck and got the job done. Well done to him.
* This sport is full of serious insects who think it's all about them and fail to realise life is unfair.
* I'd love to visit Kona outside of race week, midyear, to see what it's like "normally". In race week, it is super-weird.

And after all that, geez I'd love to finish Kona one day ...

"Find a way, not an excuse". Goony, Kona, 2009
Last edited by: teaandstuff: Oct 28, 17 23:16
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Rev3 is not going to do the Poconos race in 2018. The venue would not renew with them, but the bigger issue is that Rev3 really can't turn a profit on a race until they get near 1000 participants. With WTC taking the lion's share of long course racers, everyone else is fighting for scraps. Competition is a good thing for business, but the masses have made it clear... They don't want to race Challenge in NA. They don't want to race Rev3 (Quassy is the only race that keeps getting solid turnouts, but even those are diminishing), but they WILL race a Rev3 race with a WTC license (Maine, Barrelman). It's pretty ridiculous if you think about it. Add Atlantic City to that list too. Independent races, well run, grass roots, family friendly, non-corporate feel... They don't get the participants. Add the Ironman label and charge an extra $150 and people come in droves. At the same time, people complain that there aren't any other options! Rev3 puts on great events, but not enough folks would do Cedar Point (or Knoxville, Maine, etc.)... so they had to cancel. People drove the competition out of town, and now a race director would be crazy to start a new long course race without Ironman's backing.

I also think it's important to make a distinction between the old Ironman and the new WTC. IMO, things changed when they switched to the KPR point system ~2010. Even worse when the Chinese company bought them last year. When I go to a Rev3 race, or a local sprint, the races have a nice feel to them. Most are about the athlete and their experience. WTC gives you a distinctly different feel. It's good for their bottom line, but bad for the long term growth potential of the sport. They have a stranglehold on the sport, and really, their trademark lawyers are the only reason they've continued to dominate. They succeed not because of triathletes, but because of non-triathletes who only know about Ironman and Kona. The Rev3 tattoo carries no weight when bragging at the water cooler.

_______________________________________________________
John Kenny, Pro Triathlete, USAT Certified Coach - http://www.frenchcreekracing.com
Philly Masters and Open Water
Swim and Multisport Events
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Wow what a really sad post. Where was Ironman conceived and first run? Oh that's right the home of Ironman Hawaii. Anywhere else an Ironman should almost be considered easy. Yes the conditions are tough but everyone knows it and it is what makes it such a special race going to battle the heat and wind. People that play their big story on Instagram how heroic they are and get bought back to size deserve everything thing they get. Of course anyone giving so much to a race and fails to reach expectation should be disappointed. The expo is nothing exciting with many companies pushing cheap deals to make revenue and like Rudy have the appearance of how good their stuff is by everyone using it. The same can be said about Ironman as a sport as it more often than not leaves me disappointed because I expected to get more out of myself the same as I do at Kona. I want to have that super fast Ironman where I feel I conquered the course and I want to have the same for Kona but I almost see them as different events due to the fact how much harder Kona is. My only gripe is people do put it on too much of a pedestal that they are racing there and many people pump their ego.

Drafting is a separate story at every race especially with a mass start.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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The previous poster called it a sad post. I don't agree. It's not sad, but it is a reality from one viewpoint.

Here are a couple of points, though, that possibly challenge the premise of the post. Had Sanders not had the race he did, I suspect he would have had significant presence in your editorial. But, he largely pulled it off. I think that kind of fans the Kona flames, right? Sanders just couldn't "get" Kona and many folks were suggesting he just skip that race.... but then he did it. He held on to first place for 98+% of the race and still held on for 2nd. Hoffman placed 2nd in 2014 and has been at the front of the race ever since adding a serious element of drama. Potts has not "got" Kona.... but then hasn't he? (separate question: how do his performances line up with Widoff and Lovato for Americans who consistently place in the top 10?). Mark Allen: he didn't "get" Kona until his 6th attempt 2nd place finish (though he added to the drama sooner than that). So, this idea that the conditions are so, so hard, but that you get folks like Sanders who emerge from the hot and humid despair you refer to.... doesn't that make the thought of realizing a good race in Kona somewhat possible for all of us?

Then there is the thought, my thought, that triathlon may need a ultra marathoning equivalent to the world major marathons to prevent the cannibalism WTC is reeking on our sport. (sure, that's where the swim-run events come in) But I look to ultra running and see something similar happening over there. You got the former Ithaca Crew of Sage, Max and Yassine. Sage and Max can consistently win 50 mile ultra races, and Yassine placed 7th at Western States. But, it seems that no athlete can be consistent at the 100 mile distance. That distance seems to have a similar effect in terms of minimizing accomplishments at shorter distances while destroying the pros, and possibly, leading to the same attrition in the sport that Ironman racing leads to, where athletes go all in for IMLP or Kona in terms of training and gear and then upset the work, support-system balance in their lives and have to leave the sport, which negatively affects the industry tied to the sport.

So, I don't know: do we blame Kona, WTC, 100 mile ultra races, cross fit... it appears to be an issue of our goal motivation systems. I blame Zwift

wovebike.com | Wove on instagram
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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Kilian seems to be pretty consistent, no?

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
Kilian seems to be pretty consistent, no?


I'd have to go back and look as I don't follow Ultra close enough, but isn't Anton Krupicka having issues with consistency? But Kilian would be like a Frodo or a Crowie, right? and Kiley pointed out in his message that those guys are awesome to spectate, but there's everyone else. Does making a 100 mile race like Hardrock, Leadville, Western States, as the goal and benchmark for legitimacy, does it have a negative effect on the sport?

edit: I'll reach out to Gary David, sociology professor at Bentley who does (did?) cohost the Elevation Trail podcast for his thoughts, as he's done Boston, IMLP and Ultra races and thinks a lot about this stuff.

wovebike.com | Wove on instagram
Last edited by: milesthedog: Oct 29, 17 9:35
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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milesthedog wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
Kilian seems to be pretty consistent, no?


I'd have to go back and look as I don't follow Ultra close enough, but isn't Anton Krupicka having issues with consistency? But Kilian would be like a Frodo or a Crowie, right? and Kiley pointed out in his message that those guys are awesome to spectate, but there's everyone else. Does making a 100 mile race like Hardrock, Leadville, Western States, as the goal and benchmark for legitimacy, does it have a negative effect on the sport?

edit: I'll reach out to Gary David, sociology professor at Bentley who does (did?) cohost the Elevation Trail podcast for his thoughts, as he's done Boston, IMLP and Ultra races and thinks a lot about this stuff.

I think Kilian is more like Dave Scott than a Frodo or even Crowie. I mean, look no further than this year for proof of that.

But the fact that Kilian is an outlier is largely the point. When athletes - and/or spectators - look at Kilian, do they see someone who is doing something that no one else is really capable of or do they see someone who is proving what is possible? I don't know enough about the folks in the sport to know.

I think Kilian can either support the argument that 100mi is the benchmark for legitimacy OR that it's having a negative effect on the sport. As with the much-less-popular thread about why Kona is great, I think the differences in the argument are almost entirely a matter of perspective.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [jkenny5150] [ In reply to ]
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jkenny5150 wrote:

To say that Kona is a World Championship is completely arbitrary, but everyone buys into it. The only official WCs are those sanctioned by ITU.

Another private equity firm could start their own WC in a different location... if only they had a few billion $ to spend... On another note, it would be just as valid for any old local triathlon to call themselves a World Championship. Aside from attendance, history, and prestige, what makes their claim any less valid?

1998 agreement between ITU and WTC:
https://www.teamusa.org/...998-USAT-ITU-WTC.pdf

Briefly, it states that:
ITU recognizes WTC's ownership of "Ironman Triathlon World Championship" (and many other similar names)

ITU acknowledges that the Ironman Triathlon World Championship does not constitute a "self-proclaimed" or "self-declared" world championship within any meaning of any ITU rule or policy.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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I love this post. Holy sh*t, what is goin on here at ST? People (even the men) are having all the feels-type things this week???

Patti in NJ
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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milesthedog wrote:
But, it seems that no athlete can be consistent at the 100 mile distance. That distance seems to have a similar effect in terms of minimizing accomplishments at shorter distances while destroying the pros

yes - ultras at 100 and up tend to either destroy the athlete, or they semi-retire and become soul runners..

Anton Krupicka
Tim Olson
Geoff Roes

the pattern is a couple of good years rapidly followed by collapse.
Women don't seem as prone to this for some reason, either tougher or more sensible about training, or both.

Anna Frost

"It is a good feeling for old men who have begun to fear failure, any sort of failure, to set a schedule for exercise and stick to it. If an aging man can run a distance of three miles, for instance, he knows that whatever his other failures may be, he is not completely wasted away." Romain Gary, SI interview
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
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Shambolic wrote:
Wow what a really sad post. Where was Ironman conceived and first run? Oh that's right the home of Ironman Hawaii. Anywhere else an Ironman should almost be considered easy. Yes the conditions are tough but everyone knows it and it is what makes it such a special race going to battle the heat and wind. People that play their big story on Instagram how heroic they are and get bought back to size deserve everything thing they get. Of course anyone giving so much to a race and fails to reach expectation should be disappointed. The expo is nothing exciting with many companies pushing cheap deals to make revenue and like Rudy have the appearance of how good their stuff is by everyone using it. The same can be said about Ironman as a sport as it more often than not leaves me disappointed because I expected to get more out of myself the same as I do at Kona. I want to have that super fast Ironman where I feel I conquered the course and I want to have the same for Kona but I almost see them as different events due to the fact how much harder Kona is. My only gripe is people do put it on too much of a pedestal that they are racing there and many people pump their ego.

Drafting is a separate story at every race especially with a mass start.

If you are implying that the first Ironman Hawaii was at Kona they you would be wrong. From 1978 to 1980 it was on Oahu.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [jkenny5150] [ In reply to ]
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jkenny5150 wrote:
I also think it's important to make a distinction between the old Ironman and the new WTC. IMO, things changed when they switched to the KPR point system ~2010. Even worse when the Chinese company bought them last year. When I go to a Rev3 race, or a local sprint, the races have a nice feel to them. Most are about the athlete and their experience. WTC gives you a distinctly different feel. It's good for their bottom line, but bad for the long term growth potential of the sport. They have a stranglehold on the sport, and really, their trademark lawyers are the only reason they've continued to dominate. They succeed not because of triathletes, but because of non-triathletes who only know about Ironman and Kona. The Rev3 tattoo carries no weight when bragging at the water cooler.

Please clue me in. What is the distinction between the old Ironman and the new WTC and when did this change occur? Exactly what is worse now that they've been acquired by Dalian Wanda ... and is definitively a result of the new ownership?

There's no doubt that WTC maintains market dominance in triathlon, but another perspective might be that without Ironman, triathlon participation might not ever have grown to its current worldwide participation level, and in fact, the sport - in the U.S. - might have totally imploded.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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This is an important point. I do love the sport -- that's why I posted this thread. We are wondering why the sport is declining. In my opinion the biggest force driving the decline is IRONMAN, among the middle of the pack, and Kona, among the pointy end athletes on these boards. And IRONMAN is Kona and Kona is IRONMAN. This sport is not supposed to ruin us, make us feel like shit, or, in the words of Jesse Thomas, "take years off my life". We are burning out our athletes and burning out our best athletes.


Staying away from the politics of all this, I agree with part of what you are getting at here.

An IRONMAN triathlon is an insanely long and hard race. When it first became popular, it was thought of as a ounce-a-year kind of race. Indeed, when there was still just the 5-main IRONMAN races around the world, IMH was thought of as the end-of-the-year race. You woukld train race, at shorter distances all year building up to IMH.

Now it's almost a year-round obsession. Newcomers coming into the sport go right to the IRONMAN (full) distance as their first triathlon. And that's all they will focus on - with the odd 70.3 as a "tune-up" or "training race".

Racing multiple IM races throughout a long competitive year, be you an AGer or a Pro, can't be overall that good or healthy for you.

I note that world-class marathon runners confine themselves to two marathons a year - often one on the spring and another in the fall!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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He's coming at it from a pro prospective and the old/new WTC was the days where WTC never had a "points standings" for pros to qualify. Of course that all happened the same time Rev3 and other race companies were creating much better pro specific pay structures. So to solve that, WTC created the current setup that basically required you to race more WTC events and less other pro paying events.

ETA: Which is weird in that I've wondered why WTC didn't go that route with AG'ers as well to qualify for Kona. Points really are only used for rankings but not Kona spots.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Oct 30, 17 10:28
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
He's coming at it from a pro prospective and the old/new WTC was the days where WTC never had a "points standings" for pros to qualify. Of course that all happened the same time Rev3 and other race companies were creating much better pro specific pay structures. So to solve that, WTC created the current setup that basically required you to race more WTC events and less other pro paying events.

ETA: Which is weird in that I've wondered why WTC didn't go that route with AG'ers as well to qualify for Kona. Points really are only used for rankings but not Kona spots.

That explains the old vs the new Pro qualification method (which preceded the sale to Wanda). It doesn't tell me what is different (and negative) since Dalian Wanda took over. Meanwhile, WTC HQ is still right here in Tampa (new digs though) and has tremendously expanded space and staff this past year.

Yes, when the KPR system came about a lot of people here speculated that WTC would go the same route for Age Groupers with the AWA rankings. Its always something they can do later if they feel like it.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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HuffNPuff wrote:
Shambolic wrote:
Wow what a really sad post. Where was Ironman conceived and first run? Oh that's right the home of Ironman Hawaii. Anywhere else an Ironman should almost be considered easy. Yes the conditions are tough but everyone knows it and it is what makes it such a special race going to battle the heat and wind. People that play their big story on Instagram how heroic they are and get bought back to size deserve everything thing they get. Of course anyone giving so much to a race and fails to reach expectation should be disappointed. The expo is nothing exciting with many companies pushing cheap deals to make revenue and like Rudy have the appearance of how good their stuff is by everyone using it. The same can be said about Ironman as a sport as it more often than not leaves me disappointed because I expected to get more out of myself the same as I do at Kona. I want to have that super fast Ironman where I feel I conquered the course and I want to have the same for Kona but I almost see them as different events due to the fact how much harder Kona is. My only gripe is people do put it on too much of a pedestal that they are racing there and many people pump their ego.

Drafting is a separate story at every race especially with a mass start.


If you are implying that the first Ironman Hawaii was at Kona they you would be wrong. From 1978 to 1980 it was on Oahu.

I am quite aware of the history I was referring to Hawaii the state or islands. My point being the conditions are just as oppressive.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Fleck wrote:

I note that world-class marathon runners confine themselves to two marathons a year - often one on the spring and another in the fall!

I feel fitter after an IM than after a solo marathon, just because you can't run so fast in an IM.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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I loved everything about Kona week,especially the morning swims at Dig Me Beach and the many social events throughout the week. The race itself was epic due to the challenging conditions and I loved the run along Ali Drive and also the finishing mile. Volunteers and organization was fantastic. And my wife loved the holiday and especially the week after in Maui. Sure there are easier and more beautiful courses around, but to experience this legendary event certainly met this first-timer’s expectations. Now to figure out how I can get back there again!
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [jkenny5150] [ In reply to ]
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Perhaps we should be distinguishing between WTC and triathlon, because what's in the interest of one sport is not in the interests of the other sport.

'It never gets easier, you just get crazier.'
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [bmas] [ In reply to ]
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bmas wrote:
I loved everything about Kona week,

I had a terrible jetlag

bmas wrote:
especially the morning swims at Dig Me Beach

I planned that too bit my ears were a bit sensitive so I did not DARE to swim because I feared an infection

bmas wrote:
and the many social events throughout the week.

I agree, I loved the underpants run and especially that I got the opportunity to watch live the Bob Babbitt interviews ((I regard my selfie with Banjo-Man as my most precious souvenir)

bmas wrote:
The race itself was epic due to the challenging conditions

I lost all of my ambitions to a good placement (so continued merely in finisher-mode) after a mechanical issue after 5 km which costed me exactly an hour, and also because I was way slower on all of the three disciplines as I expected.

bmas wrote:
and I loved the run along Ali Drive and also the finishing mile.

I ran the marathon only motivated to finish which is different from trying to get the best out of it, but ar least I RAN it (also on Palani upwards)

bmas wrote:
Volunteers and organization was fantastic.

Can‘t agree more

bmas wrote:
And my wife loved the holiday

Besides from being on holiday with an unchilled agegrouper who does not like sitting on the beach

bmas wrote:
and especially the week after in Maui.

We flew back straight away because I did not have any holidays left, moreover we‘d been already in Maui 24 years ago

bmas wrote:
Sure there are easier and more beautiful courses around,

That‘s true but I can‘t believe it is that hard to explain my disappointing speed (I do not stop believing it was the jetlag)

bmas wrote:
but to experience this legendary event certainly met this first-timer’s expectations.

It thus did not meet mine‘s.

bmas wrote:
Now to figure out how I can get back there again!

O god I can’t wait
Last edited by: longtrousers: Oct 31, 17 1:52
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [longtrousers] [ In reply to ]
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Sucks to have the mechanical, but you did way better than me if you ran the marathon including Palani hill. I was in survival mode as a victory lap throughout the whole race. For the jet lag, it helps to be an old retired fart like me where you’ve got endless days off and time to come two weeks before (plus to get acclimatized from cool Canadian weather). For your next trip back you can also bring a Cervelo as their booth was awesome and they did free tuneups. Also, for the Dig Me Beach swims I also had concerns about my ears as I’d had problems from a summer of open water swims in questionable water. Ear plugs were a big help.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [georged] [ In reply to ]
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Perhaps we should be distinguishing between WTC and triathlon, because what's in the interest of one sport is not in the interests of the other sport.


But you are starting to get into that area, as some have here on this thread, and they do elsewhere regularly of thinking of or categorizing IRONMAN as a different sport. It's not - it's a comprised of a swim/bike/run and we call it a, triathlon. Yes, it's a very popular triathlon. Yes, it's the most popular long distance race in triathlon. On that last point, it's a bit like the marathon in running - the BIG difference here, is that IRONMAN is a brand, owned by a private for-profit company.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Ignoring the heat or travel or race setup.........Win on Sunday, sell on Monday.

Kona seems to create a massive personal toll on aspiring amateur athletes. Or Ironman in general.

It's a premium event, as is any Ironman competition product, so it costs a lot. But, let's put this in perspective..........

I just looked up pricing for a full Ironman, and it's pretty much $800. The premium amateur cycling experience is pretty much the "Haute Route" series.

They're coming to the US now for 2018. For the THREE DAY series in Asheville, it's $825. For THREE days of SAG vehicles, police escorts, massages, and pretty much the full professional rider treatment.

So, it's not really fair to split the days for an equivalent price......but let's do it.........that's under $300 per day versus $800 for one day.

I have to admit, the pricing on even 1/2 Ironmans is why I pretty much won't try it. I can do a local roadie bike race for $35 to $50 and stand to win up to $250 in Cat 4 and faster.

Local sprints and Olympics unbranded are like $50 to $75. I could swing that.

$800?????!!!!! Hell no. For $800 I'd be riding like a pro for 3 days in the mountains and getting my legs massaged for free everyday thank you very much.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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So, it's not really fair to split the days for an equivalent price......but let's do it.........that's under $300 per day versus $800 for one day.

I have to admit, the pricing on even 1/2 Ironmans is why I pretty much won't try it. I can do a local roadie bike race for $35 to $50 and stand to win up to $250 in Cat 4 and faster. //

Ya but isn't the one day 1/2 Ironman right around the one day $300 you posted up for just a bike ride? And you are really going to compare a local bike race that probably closes no roads, or if they do it is a rolling closure or short loop course to a triathlon that has to stage 3 different sports, and with likely 3, 4, or a ton more competitors?


I think you either need to talk to a RD or a triathlon or actually become one to see the stark differences in what you are trying to compare..
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
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Why do you describe it as sad?
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
Ya but isn't the one day 1/2 Ironman right around the one day $300 you posted up for just a bike ride? And you are really going to compare a local bike race that probably closes no roads, or if they do it is a rolling closure or short loop course to a triathlon that has to stage 3 different sports, and with likely 3, 4, or a ton more competitors?


I think you either need to talk to a RD or a triathlon or actually become one to see the stark differences in what you are trying to compare..

I'm not saying you're not right. I'm saying those are the reasons that add up to why I can't afford it. Essentially, I'm agreeing with you but saying that the cost is prohibitive because of those things you posted.

I can swing a local sprint or Olympic tri event. I think I saw a local Olympic for like $55. Yeah, it's shorter and in a pool for that part. But it's what I can swing.

I don't have the money for the $300 per day bike event. Nor a $300 one day triathlon.

Kinda sucks since Raleigh hosts one.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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I don't have the money for the $300 per day bike event. Nor a $300 one day triathlon. //

No problem, most of us have been where you are now, there are things I want and cannot afford either. And I just glad Im done racing Ironman branded races too, because I would not be happy paying those prices either, however justified.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [monty] [ In reply to ]
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To stay on topic:
The relevance to the thread being, I feel for talented people Kona places a kind of gold nugget on a pedestal for people that may not be worth it trying at the cost to self, bank account, and family. It's made out to be the "if you can't get here and do this/finish/win" the rest of your efforts were worthless.


And on my $0.02 diversion:
I just have to chalk it up to what it is and have fun with what I can do. And it's my choice to spread the $300 for races over a whole year instead of one event. I can't fault anyone for that.

Essentially that is the entire budget for a year on entry fees no matter what I choose, about $300. Minus incidentals (travel, food, equipment repair).

Next year here's my anticipated split-up:
-Assault on Mt. Mitchell ($125)
-Falls Lake Road Race (usually $35), with prize money available
-Umstead Gravel Grinder 100 miler($65)
-Some sprint tri or local Olympic tri, money that's left
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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burnthesheep wrote:

Local sprints and Olympics unbranded are like $50 to $75. I could swing that.

Local sprints are more typically $75 - $95 and local internationals are more like $150-$175 at least where I live. If you are willing to register up to a year early you can get some deals. A couple of weeks ago I registered for an Int'l Distance to be held 18 Nov 2018 for $95 ... yeah, 13 months in advance.

Haute Route Asheville looks cool as heck, but you don't swim and you don't run. Basically it's a 3 day bike training camp. You can enter 4+ day tri camps for cheaper.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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Curious because I saw your last post on your race schedule for 2018, but are you a cyclist or a triathlete who road races? Sounds like you do much more cycling geared events. Not that it matters, but take for example your assault on mitchell is $125 dollars, imo equal to a setup events pinehurst olympic or FS Series Beaverdam. Although I'm not sure even FS has an olympic anymore for $75, maybe they do at the earliest of early registrations.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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You're right. It's more bike biased. AOMM is a "must try" for me, so why I chose it.

I love the bike. I've managed to get the w/kg to a point I can compete instead of enter "finisher" style events. So want to use that fitness.

After choosing AOMM for next year and know a few other things that may be nice, $300 gets spread thin quickly.

Maybe I could do an every-other year thing. :-)
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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No I get it it, I was just more making the point, that AOMM money wise can be the same as FS Beaverdam (actually $95 for race day registration). Of course it's not as "cool" but once you do it AOMM once, unless your going for some record you could apply that AOMM money to an olympic tri in 2019. I asked if you were a cyclists because I generally don't think people understand the costs that putting on a tri does to an RD. RD's generally aren't out to over price you just because they think they can. It's a pain in the ass to RD and I don't even know all the in and outs. Not to say an IM is priced correctly, yes I think they are over priced, but for what you get and the experience, it's probaly fair. But RD's have so much more shit they have to deal with, and I can tell you as a Raleigh guy (my coaching is based here), the local tri series here in NC (setup events, FS Series, Trivium, Jones Racing) aren't price gouging or anything. They are just running it as a business and hoping to make it another year. FS Series imo has really grown and taken the racer experience up a knotch over the last year.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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HuffNPuff wrote:
jkenny5150 wrote:

I also think it's important to make a distinction between the old Ironman and the new WTC. IMO, things changed when they switched to the KPR point system ~2010. Even worse when the Chinese company bought them last year. When I go to a Rev3 race, or a local sprint, the races have a nice feel to them. Most are about the athlete and their experience. WTC gives you a distinctly different feel. It's good for their bottom line, but bad for the long term growth potential of the sport. They have a stranglehold on the sport, and really, their trademark lawyers are the only reason they've continued to dominate. They succeed not because of triathletes, but because of non-triathletes who only know about Ironman and Kona. The Rev3 tattoo carries no weight when bragging at the water cooler.


Please clue me in. What is the distinction between the old Ironman and the new WTC and when did this change occur? Exactly what is worse now that they've been acquired by Dalian Wanda ... and is definitively a result of the new ownership?

There's no doubt that WTC maintains market dominance in triathlon, but another perspective might be that without Ironman, triathlon participation might not ever have grown to its current worldwide participation level, and in fact, the sport - in the U.S. - might have totally imploded.

That's actually a really good question and a tough one to answer objectively and definitively. When you speak to folks who raced Ironmans in the 80s and 90s, they give you a totally different story. One where beer companies sponsored events that had a laid back feel and the athletes who were there were there for the competition and the personal accomplishment rather than a finisher medal, M-dot tattoo, and to brag to their friends about it. When I go to a Rev3 event (today), I feel like I'm being welcomed to a party by a bunch of good friends (even though I don't know many of them). WTC events give a totally different vibe. They are bigger races, obviously, but I think they give a much more corporate feel. They are over-commercialized and they aren't so much about the athlete any more as they are about making money.

From my (pro triathlete) point of view, things changed drastically when they added the KQ system where you basically had to pay a season pass to race with them. If you wanted to make it to Kona or 70.3 worlds, you could no longer qualify at a single event, but rather, it was a points based system. So, most pros basically raced nothing but WTC for the whole season, even when Rev3, Lifetime, and others had GREAT prize money in their series events. The pros still flocked to WTC events because of sponsorship (among other reasons) and everyone else either went out of business or discontinued paying pros. So, the fields got more competitive, and they've gradually cut their prize purses over time. Now, I know that the sport doesn't NEED pros, right? When you ask AGers why they want to race Ironman (or specifically Ironman WC), they often cite the fact that they get to race on the same course as the pros. So, I would argue that the sport does need pros, at least to some extent. I guess it just doesn't need 2nd tier pros.

Re: Dalian Wanda - not sure of everything they've done or proposed to do differently. Maybe it's more of the same, but I know they aren't taking the sport back to its grassroots beginnings!

_______________________________________________________
John Kenny, Pro Triathlete, USAT Certified Coach - http://www.frenchcreekracing.com
Philly Masters and Open Water
Swim and Multisport Events
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [bilmas] [ In reply to ]
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bilmas wrote:
jkenny5150 wrote:


To say that Kona is a World Championship is completely arbitrary, but everyone buys into it. The only official WCs are those sanctioned by ITU.

Another private equity firm could start their own WC in a different location... if only they had a few billion $ to spend... On another note, it would be just as valid for any old local triathlon to call themselves a World Championship. Aside from attendance, history, and prestige, what makes their claim any less valid?


1998 agreement between ITU and WTC:
https://www.teamusa.org/...998-USAT-ITU-WTC.pdf

Briefly, it states that:
ITU recognizes WTC's ownership of "Ironman Triathlon World Championship" (and many other similar names)

ITU acknowledges that the Ironman Triathlon World Championship does not constitute a "self-proclaimed" or "self-declared" world championship within any meaning of any ITU rule or policy.

I have not seen this before. Thanks for sharing. Why would ITU agree to such a thing?

_______________________________________________________
John Kenny, Pro Triathlete, USAT Certified Coach - http://www.frenchcreekracing.com
Philly Masters and Open Water
Swim and Multisport Events
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [georged] [ In reply to ]
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georged wrote:
Perhaps we should be distinguishing between WTC and triathlon, because what's in the interest of one sport is not in the interests of the other sport.

I agree 100%

_______________________________________________________
John Kenny, Pro Triathlete, USAT Certified Coach - http://www.frenchcreekracing.com
Philly Masters and Open Water
Swim and Multisport Events
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [bmas] [ In reply to ]
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Agree 100%. No one could have prepared me for the beast that is Kona and I was disappointed in my first time performance but couldn't wait to get back there to try again and still do... The good energy in that place on race week is intoxicating...
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [bilmas] [ In reply to ]
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bilmas wrote:
jkenny5150 wrote:


To say that Kona is a World Championship is completely arbitrary, but everyone buys into it. The only official WCs are those sanctioned by ITU.

Another private equity firm could start their own WC in a different location... if only they had a few billion $ to spend... On another note, it would be just as valid for any old local triathlon to call themselves a World Championship. Aside from attendance, history, and prestige, what makes their claim any less valid?


1998 agreement between ITU and WTC:
https://www.teamusa.org/...998-USAT-ITU-WTC.pdf

Briefly, it states that:
ITU recognizes WTC's ownership of "Ironman Triathlon World Championship" (and many other similar names)

ITU acknowledges that the Ironman Triathlon World Championship does not constitute a "self-proclaimed" or "self-declared" world championship within any meaning of any ITU rule or policy.


I love how you make it sound like the ITU freely and willingly granted the WTC the right to use the term World championship. We all know that Ironman won that battle with their money, flexing their muscles.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Diabolo] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting, I would like to hear more about what happened here (from you or anyone who knows the history of the sport). Disclosure: I do not like WTC. I'm not against profit in sporting per se, but my impression from them is that profit is by far first and then secondarily the sport - quite the contrary of what a federation is supposed to do, advance the interest of the sport.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [JEI] [ In reply to ]
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JEI wrote:
Interesting, I would like to hear more about what happened here (from you or anyone who knows the history of the sport). Disclosure: I do not like WTC. I'm not against profit in sporting per se, but my impression from them is that profit is by far first and then secondarily the sport - quite the contrary of what a federation is supposed to do, advance the interest of the sport.


You can have a look at this for a start:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/Somebody_asked_about_the_WTC/ITU_settlement_P813527/?search_string=wtc%20itu%20legal%20world%20championship#p813527


Couldn't find Dan's story/recall of the settlement that he alludes to at the start of the conversation. Maybe he can dig it up from somewhere in the archives?
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:

Getting back to tri, I think the ITU World Championships (Oly Dist) and the ITU Long Dist Champs are arguably "major championships" in the tri world,....

In the real world, no one has ever heard of those. The only one that 99.999% of the population has heard of is Kona. (in usa at least) (IF they have even heard of that one)
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [TeamBarenaked] [ In reply to ]
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TeamBarenaked wrote:
ericmulk wrote:


Getting back to tri, I think the ITU World Championships (Oly Dist) and the ITU Long Dist Champs are arguably "major championships" in the tri world,....


In the real world, no one has ever heard of those. The only one that 99.999% of the population has heard of is Kona. (in usa at least) (IF they have even heard of that one)

So what? Most folks have no real idea what the triathlon sport is, let alone distance or format.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [JEI] [ In reply to ]
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That's because they're not a federation. It's a private corporation. Their sole reason for existing is to make money.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Diabolo] [ In reply to ]
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 love how you make it sound like the ITU freely and willingly granted the WTC the right to use the term World championship. We all know that Ironman won that battle with their money, flexing their muscles. //

Not sure it went down exactly like that. Yes the ITU felt it owned the term "World Championship" and it was entitled to it. And they were/are, but what it came down to was the actual distances of the race. Yes it was going to cost a lot of money to litigate this thing, but in the end the ITU really gives two shits about Ironman. So they gave them the 140.6 world champs. They were never going to ever do a race like that anyway, so not really giving away anything. They still have their long distance world champs that they always had and an intermediate one too. 70.s and 140.6 were just never going to be of any value to them so they punted after they saw there would be an actual fight.


I really don't know who would ultimately win if they all spent millions and went to every court they could, but Ironman did have it in their title for a very long time, so maybe it would have been granted somehow. I think ultimately if ITU stuck it out they might have won, but what would they have actually won in the end for all that money? Like I said, those are dead distances to them anyway and taking world out of the Kona title would not do one single negative thing to the actual race or its allure.


Fight the actual battles that matter, not the ones you just think you can win without actually winning anything..
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