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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Jorgan] [ In reply to ]
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I’ve heard or Roth, I’ve heard of Norseman but the OP of the post I was responding to was referring to the IM brand in general, not just Kona. If I’m picking a race and have to choose between IM Louisville and Challenge Roth, I’m gonna do Lou and save myself a few thousand bucks.

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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:


I don't think you have to do long course tri, or even tri at all, to become addicted to your daily workout. An hour or so of swimming, running, or cycling, done every day for several years can become very addictive over time.

I know a lot of adult amateur athletes, many of whom display addict-like characteristics towards their training. I've been guilty myself at times when training up for USMS Nationals. None are consumed like the long-course triathletes I know, though, especially those who are focused on Kona.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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"Billy says he doesn't like Susie, but I think he really likes Susie."

Or, if you prefer a more classical phrasing "the poster doth protest too much, methinks."

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [eatmydirt] [ In reply to ]
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eatmydirt wrote:
Clearing the front path of snow in winter is really useful. Brings economic benefit. Not too hot. A form of self-preservation. Popular with those I love.

And I hate it.

I actually like doing that, and splitting firewood. I can see instant results, I feel productive :)

29 years and counting
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Ironmike78] [ In reply to ]
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I haven't done the new Roth run course, but yeah, it was a bit like a canal path version of the Queen K; thankfully overcast the year I did it.

29 years and counting
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:

Triathlon to me is very unique in that atleast for LC, the leader of the sport is an private company, not an governing body. I don't know how many sports that is truly the case, where governing bodies essential bow to a private company. That's how powerful it is, and not saying that's bad. I'm just saying that when they have a gravy train like Kona, they have zero incentive to move it. But that's a different discussion than the "fairness" of having WC at same location every year (which is what I was mentioning earlier).

That's how it is for golf and tennis as well. Augusta and the All England Club are both private organizations (companies? Not really sure, not sure it matters much) and they are major forces in their respective sports. They also hold the most prestigious tourney at one spot every year. Even the Olympics struggles to make in-roads on the prestige of Wimbledon/The Masters. (See the best sitting out if they're not totally 100% to recover for the "real" tourneys)
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Pinewood74] [ In reply to ]
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Except golf and tennis both have 4 majors that are run by 4 different entities and some are private and some are "governing" body. And all 4 are on equal footing almost 99.9%. When you win a "major" in those sports, you don't get shitted on that it was only X major and not Y major. You are a major champion, period.

ETA: There is only really one "major" in triathlon for LC racing- Kona.......I guess you could say Roth is up there but in golf terms Roth would be the Players Championship, where it's clear that there is a dividing line of importance/prestige/championship title between a major and a non major championship. Now of course this is all "self made" by WTC because of how the sport accepts it. We as a sport (media/fans/athletes/businesses) have gone all in on Kona and thus validate that yes it's cool/applicable to be given the "world championship" title. But so let's compare it to say any other sport that has "world championships", what sport out there keeps it "world championship" at the same location year after year?

I can't think of an Olympic sport that doesn't change it's world championship venue every year (or whenever it's held), but of course then you start talking about WTC and it's a business, and makes no sense to move it (which is another point).

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Oct 26, 17 7:42
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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The majors are absolutely not on equal footing in golf. Maybe in Tennis, but then we could just make the comparison as Wimbledon is to Grass Tennis as Kona is to LC.

As for Tennis, you'll never see folks talk about how X player hasn't won the PGA Championship or the US Open if they've won a major (unless it's for the grand slam of all 4), but players will routinely get shit on for not having a green jacket. Augusta is absolutely a step above the others and two steps above the PGA Championship (which is just a major because they needed a 4th)

I still think that Wimbledon is a step above the others, though, although some may disagree with me. (I say this as an American)

The ITU world championships are very much a big deal to the pros and age groupers are real big on Age Group Worlds so those would be your French and Australian Open equivalent.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Pinewood74] [ In reply to ]
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The majors are absolutely not on equal footing in golf.

--------

Your arguing semantics within the ranking of the 4 majors at that point (which I agree Master's is likely the best major but it's still no different than an British Open win) but correct me if I'm not wrong, is there not 4 majors in each sport?

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Oct 26, 17 8:09
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Rather than ask if there are analogues to other sports regarding single venue world championships or majors, perhaps the better question is to be asking if such a structure benefits the sport. (or perhaps Wanda?)

I'd think that for the sport to grow successfully, you'd want it to become more accessible - rotating would at least ensure that I could drive to the venue once every 4 or 5 years, and like the 70.3 WC having incentives for "your continent's turn" the year prior might attract a certain customer who'd otherwise not be in the hunt for a KQ slot. But the key is that this wouldn't drive additional participation. These people would likely be racing IM anyway, and might actually take it easier on their continent's off years.

Instead, WTC is likely focusing on how to grow its customer base. Unfortunately, it's boxed itself into a hole where the NBC broadcast and related media coverage are synonymous with the brand. They're hoping that someone might decide to step up to the 70.3 or IM distance after they watch the NBC coverage. This is why they don't mind losing money on the Kona event.

Yet, crucially, this also ensures that they're locked into an American-centric perspective. The WC is in the USA, and we call it 70.3 and the medals, even those in every other country with the metric system, often have distances in imperial. The coverage too, is too focused on the "top American" even if they're in 7th or 4th or 31st. Even in Canada, where we get NBC, I can't get the Kona broadcast because of programming rights.

To grow the sport, I believe they're going to need to rotate the venue to create a truly global sport/brand, but to do so they'd need to take short term risk. I'm not sure they're ready to do that.
Last edited by: timbasile: Oct 26, 17 8:14
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Pinewood74] [ In reply to ]
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Pinewood74 wrote:
The majors are absolutely not on equal footing in golf.

As a former PGA Professional........I'd love to hear you expound on this.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [timbasile] [ In reply to ]
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There is a lot of truth, and it's like I said....what sport is out there that what is best for the best brand isn't always whats best for the sport overall? And I'm not saying that as a bad thing, because the reality is what Canuck said on the very 1st thing.....Kona is a BUSINESS DECISION for WTC. And that's perfectly ok, and in reality this is a case of this isn't WTC's problem as much as a sport itself problem. And I think that's the gist of the whole post Kiley talks about. WTC is just hanging the fruit out there, and we all as a sport are jumping over each other trying to grab that fruit as fast as we can. We have put so much into Kona and it's value, that we have pretty much nothing else out there (atleast for LC). WTC is just providing something that we all want now. And so good on them for that, I'm not knocking that. What I'm knocking is that by doing that, and claiming yourself as the world championship, you limit who can compete for the best in the world if your race is the same location and same climate. So that's all I'm saying; if WC has to stay in Kona....great....just accept it's limiting the nature of the fields that can compete for the actual win that rotating it around would help solve that issue.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [Last-offtheBike] [ In reply to ]
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Last-offtheBike wrote:
How many have ever qualified but not claimed the slot
I have a puncher's chance at a KQ, and have raced 70.3 WC, but I would not take a Kona slot for a number of the reasons in the OP. The spouse's support for this hobby is lukewarm at best, and I just couldn't justify the cost, vacation days, etc. for another IM-centric "vacation", all for destroying myself on that course. But I personally don't know anybody else who has ever declined a slot. I'm sure it's happened.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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It wouldn't take too much editing for me to rewrite this as an editorial on all the reasons I love Kona.

Coach of TriForce Triathlon Team

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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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The more I thought about his thread, I think there needs to be a clear distinction between the pro and AG experience at Kona where you points seem to blur them all together. They are--and should be--very different.
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Ah, but it's not really that Kona is so important or so awful. It's just that (some) people really are that stupid.

Don't get me wrong, I know relatively little about Kona. I also don't care very much about Kona. I'm at a loss to understand why so many others do. The thing is, outside of Slowtwitch, I only know one triathlete with any aspirations to Kona. And I know quite a few triathletes. Slowtwitch is an echo chamber. Don't go thinking that Slowtwitch sensibilities represent the masses. Or do they? Certainly not the masses I know.

Those who obsess over Kona Ironman, Boston Marathon, or some other idolised event, are idiots with no sense of perspective. They tend to be the same people who repeatedly refer to themselves as a type A personality.

I find it hard to avoid the conclusion that these people are using these events as a proxy for the lack of some real substance in their life. More TV, more consumerism, more social media = more need for something that seems substantial and valuable. Many turn to a tough sporting event. The more "iconic" the better.

To say something like "Kona is more than a triathlon, it is triathlon" is to insult all non-insane triathletes. I enjoy triathlon. I'll continue to do so regardless of what happens year to year at Kona. It's not on my radar except for the occasional thread on ST. Let's move on, shall we........
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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I'd like to see a solution to both 'the too many people on one course' and '50 women' issues by having two WC events within a couple weeks of each-other, situated in Europe on a cooler but still difficult course. Say, Wales? One year men go to wales, women to Kona and switch out every year.

808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [TriDevilDog] [ In reply to ]
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In defense of Kona and Triathlon in general - it is one of the most accessible championships anywhere, despite the costs and distance. Good luck getting a tee time at the US Open, or a court at Wimbledon. I was at the Olympics last summer and never met a single athlete - let alone got a chance to run around in my underwear with them. $5,000 would probably buy you a seat behind home plate for the World Series, for one game - maybe you get a foul ball.


With respect you are blurring the lines here between, Elite/Pro level of competition and Age-Group/Masters competition.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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I harbored a lot of these same feelings. I wrote some - but not all - in an editorial on this site back in 2011. In 2012, though, I got bit by the Kona bug, in large part because - at that point - I had come to a "what else is there?"

This is where I think the real challenge within the sport of triathlon of triathlon-as-elite-sport and triathlon-as-professional-sport starts to diverge. And this is really something that is largely unique to the pros. Any discussion of Kona needs to be split between pros and AGers. This split became even more marked when the KPR was introduced, because then the whole "KPR chase" for qualification really changed the nature of the race for pros as compared with AG slots.

Beyond that, of course, exists the dichotomy that's always existed - that Kona represents, in many ways, the dividing line between the "haves" and "have nots" in the pro ranks. Though I think a large part of this is self-fulfilling prophecy. Most pros I talk to say that your world changes once you are a top-10 in Kona. But most sponsors I talk to disagree and say only a podium performance really changes things, and really only a win will totally change how you are regarded. In this sense, I do think many pros go to Kona thinking that a good - but not great - result will get them a lot more than it likely actually will in practice, from a business standpoint.

But the business argument about Kona is - and pretty much always has been - a poor one. But this is where the business-v-elite-sport part becomes a challenge. The "smart" business decision for almost every pro is to not go to Kona. But if you are a highly competitive elite athlete, where else would you want to race?

I've been to Kona four times. I should have only gone twice - 2012 & 2015. But I do not have regrets about going in 2013 & 2016, because I think I went for the right reasons. Those were the years that - on balance (in particular 2016) - made me realize that it wasn't a race that I needed to do again. A career in professional sport is not always about making the "safe" decision. It wasn't my decision to race Kona in any of those years that I regret. It was more the decisions that I made in the lead up to Kona. And if Kona wasn't such a hard race, it wouldn't have exposed that bad decision making process. And that's less about "I can use this information to have a better race in Kona next time." It's much more about "I can use this information to make better decisions in general. Both as an athlete and beyond."

I do agree that I'm probably too much of a head-case to have ever really thrived in Kona. It's a race where you have to believe you can do well in the face of overwhelming odds that you will not, something that's never been my strong suit. I've always had more reasons why I shouldn't have done well. I'm too pragmatic, though that's served me plenty well in other areas of my life and career as well. But I only had a bad swim there once... Wink

Society has always had an overwhelming blindspot with regards to survivorship bias. We never hear the stories of those who are chewed up by the process that rewards those who make it. But so what? Would we listen even if we heard those stories? Probably not. We tend to learn best by doing and experiencing lessons - even really obvious ones like, "you probably won't do well in Kona (or any other highly-competitive-event)."

I do agree with the cliche that, "the definition of insanity is making the same mistake over and over." But I also think life is about more than only picking the battles you know you can win...

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kileyay] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting read

My ego would love to do Kona again and I think Kona and all the spin around it fuels the ego of many (including me)

My non-ego (let’s call it my heart and soul) doesn’t care about Kona at all, Kona is actually a danger
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Except here is where the Wimbledon analogue fails......Wimbledon as great as it is, is accepted as it is because pros have 3 other chances to win "majors". So while Wimbledon may be the "big one", there is a big one in France on another surface, and there is a "major" for the Americans to win, etc. So in reality tennis has 4 "world championships", and you're arguing slight semantics at that point of which one is more important. Where as Kona is the only one you get and it's setup is limiting. So everyone has to go for Kona because it's the only big one, even if you know going in you'll always suck because the setup isn't to your liking. Just like the pros who play all 4 majors simply knowing that getting to a quarterfinal at a grass court when your playing style sucks on grass is a great accomplishment and then you can use that mo' when the major goes to your "advantage".
So Canuck talking about Wimbledon not moving to Brazil....it doesn't need to move to Brazil, because the sport realizes that each major has it's own set of unique circumstances and advantages, and that with the 4 majors, everyone can basically play to their strength. That doesn't happen with Kona. But pros show up anyway because it's the epicenter and their sponsors demand they do it, and even if they know going in your going in with longer odds, but you do it because it's your profession.

The four tennis majors aren't equal. A player like Nadal can win 10 French Opens but if he had never won Wimby then he would not be considered one of the greatest. The order of importance goes Wimbledon, U.S. Open, French Open, Aussie Open. The Aussies might debate whether their tourney is more prestigious than the French, but no tennis player will dispute that Wimby is the most important tournament.

Getting back to tri, I think the ITU World Championships (Oly Dist) and the ITU Long Dist Champs are arguably "major championships" in the tri world, so maybe three majors in tri vs 4 in tennis. Further, I think the ITU draft-legal format favors a certain type of athlete vs Kona, so we have an analogy to the tennis grass courts vs clay courts, although recent events in Kona are hinting that the ITU guys may soon dominate iron racing as well as Oly dist.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [kevincoady] [ In reply to ]
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kevincoady wrote:
It wouldn't take too much editing for me to rewrite this as an editorial on all the reasons I love Kona.

would love to read that thread. please do this
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [ou8acracker2] [ In reply to ]
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ou8acracker2 wrote:

I dont know how you cold weather or dry weather folks do it. Ive raced some oly distances in the Keys and I might as well have been in the dang amazon rain forest. I didnt know I was capable of the amount of sweat I lost

I raced a half in Key West a few years ago... coming from ice/snow/winter where I live... it was only in the 80s and a "nice day" there but it was a tough run. The winner was from the Miami area and I remember seeing him on the first lap from the turn, he looked great and I wasn't doing so hot. Went from a podium spot to winning my AG and only race I've ever had to stop to walk, vomit, etc.


On thread topic, Kona isn't my thing either, the cost to get there just sort of kills it for me. I have a lot of tri friends that went to Kona again this year and some had good races but the field is so competitive you have to be close to 9 hours to be close to the top. I wilt in heat/humidity so I know that run would smash me. The mass start with so many other fast athletes is a buzz kill for me too. One friend wrote a race report and the swim was an hour or so of full contact sparring.


While Kona and IM distance isn't for me, I don't begrudge that are all about it... more power to them!
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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gary p wrote:
ericmulk wrote:


I don't think you have to do long course tri, or even tri at all, to become addicted to your daily workout. An hour or so of swimming, running, or cycling, done every day for several years can become very addictive over time.


I know a lot of adult amateur athletes, many of whom display addict-like characteristics towards their training. I've been guilty myself at times when training up for USMS Nationals. None are consumed like the long-course triathletes I know, though, especially those who are focused on Kona.

You prob have a point there and of course the irony is that everyone needs a day off every so often, which the true addicts never take.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Made Crazy by Kona: An Editorial on the Most Malignant Social Force in Triathlon [timbasile] [ In reply to ]
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timbasile wrote:
The coverage too, is too focused on the "top American" even if they're in 7th or 4th or 31st. Even in Canada, where we get NBC, I can't get the Kona broadcast because of programming rights.

To grow the sport, I believe they're going to need to rotate the venue to create a truly global sport/brand, but to do so they'd need to take short term risk. I'm not sure they're ready to do that.

Top Pros are coming from the Europe but the main AG mass is still from the US, coverage is fixed on growing and maintaining these numbers to secure it stays with them.Should the corporation see big numbers coming from the Asian market it will surely shift/rotate in order to accommodate and even grow
Roth & Samorin provide world championships for the EU,RSA is exited about the 70.3 WC (nice move) and Asia awaiting there turn
Agree 100% that they need to create a global brand,some sort of research/planning must be going on, I hope
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