Yes, you are right, we are in the same boat....Well I always say "it could be worse", but still always looking for a solution. This will probably be my last IM, no sense in beating myself up . May be time for needle point..... na. Thanks for the reply!

---

It could always be worse.....

Thanks! Never heard of beam bikes, but will check it out...

---

It could always be worse.....

the titan flex guy posts here a lot

http://www.ttinet.com/tf/index.htm

Ok, I'm coming at this from a lay perspective, not claiming to be an expert. Feel free to
correct me:

The disks in your back serve as shock absorbers. As you move, twist, run, etc, they
compress and bulge as is necessary to transfer those forces. For all intents and purposes
the the vertabrae do none of that.

Spinal fusion takes two (or more) adjacent vertabrae and fuses them together. Now
instead of having that disk available to absorb shock any force it would have handled
has to be handled by adjacent disks.

Disk replacement provides a mechanism by where some of that force can still be handled
by the disk as opposed to the adjacent disks.

The technology has been around for a long time. It has also sucked for a long time. :)
The last time I looked at this there were at least 2 companies in the US that were FDA
approved for disk replacement. I think one might even have been for two level.

The studies I looked at, at the time didn't indicate statisticallly better outcomes for
disk replacement vs fusion. Then again, I seem to recall some studies showed that
fusion vs physical therapy had the same average results at two years.

Am I getting something fundamentally wrong here?

-Jot

My name is Jeff and I suffer from back pain.

I've been told that everyone's case is a little different, so you just have to figure out what works for you. I have problems with L4-L5 and L5-S1. I can run without pain, but only after I altered my running posture from what it was before my back problems. I am more of a forefoot striker, and lean forward a little more also. The other thing is that I am more comfortable on a tri bike than a road bike. The first thing a lot of bike fitters will do if you tell them about disc problems is to get you to sit up higher. That doesn't work for me, but I also can't be in a real aggressive tri position.

Sometimes my back hurts, sometimes it is just stiff in the morning, and some times the only pain I have is referred pain in other parts of my body.

For running, I went to see Bobby McGee in Boulder and he worked on my mechanics. It made a world of difference.

I think you just need to wait and see how the injury plays out. Running may eventually be fine, it may not. Same with cycling. Yoga has worked for me, but anything like a back bend is painful.

Your results will definitely differ.

I can run without pain, but only after I altered my running posture from what it was before my back problems. I am more of a forefoot striker, and lean forward a little more also. The other thing is that I am more comfortable on a tri bike than a road bike. The first thing a lot of bike fitters will do if you tell them about disc problems is to get you to sit up higher. That doesn't work for me, but I also can't be in a real aggressive tri position.

I am in the exact same position as you, can run fine, but have transitioned to a slight forward lean and more of a forefoot strike. Was fit on my old tri bike with a relatively slack seat tube angle and high up front when I mentioned I had back issues and was always miserable. Worked on the fit for a while myself and found a steeper STA and lower position up front to be much more comfortable for me. I have since got a P2C and ride it relatively steep and low and am pretty comfortable (low back will begin to tighten up late in a ride or if I ride lots of hills or wind).

I had purchased a road bike last year but ended up selling it. I'd love to have a road bike, but like you, find myself significantly less comfortable than when on a tri bike so I ended up selling the bike. I'll probably give a road bike another shot at some point and try a lot of different frames and fits to find something comfortable as the hills and winding roads up here in Mass would be great for a road bike.

---

---

Portside Athletics Blog

You are talking about an axial load, the artificial disc replacements offer no axial damping whatsoever. What they try to do is retain the kinematics of the spine. I have been out of the industry for 2 years now but I had a conversation with a rep recently and he said another major problem (in addition to others) with artificial's is the inability for revisions. If there is a problem with the initial setup, there is not much you can do. It is very difficult to retract them without causing further complication. I would agree with you that most studies don't show any statistical improvement. Any improvement over the short term is usually negated over the long term. People should exhaust all other treatment options first.

---

Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
http://www.RideScoozy.com

Thanks for elaborating.

-Jot

This is what I was told as well. That there the option of a re-do or replacement just isn't there due to the delicate and fragile nature of the area and the amount of cutting that needs to be done to achieve access. The exact words were "the chances of you bleeding out are just too great".

About the steep bike position, a lot has been written about the relative comfort of a more steep postion for those with back problems. I dunno. I have been doing the vast majority of my training on a road bike, but am comfy on my B2 Pro when I do ride it.

A friend who had a two level fusion a month before my surgery (hers was in June '08 after a previous discectomy) just did a 4 min PR at the FL 70.3. We were lucky to find a great surgeon and have good results.

I would do it again in a heartbeat!

G

---

It's a little like wrestling a gorilla.........you don't stop when you're tired.........you stop when the gorilla is tired.

One of the problems with creating an artificial lumbar disc is the large magnitude of loads you are dealing with... it doesn't leave many options on the table, you need to use metals or dense polymers. The cervical spine interests me a little more because the loads are a lot less leaving more options on the table. If the right cervical spine replacement came along I might not object to that procedure.

---

Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
http://www.RideScoozy.com

You mentioned that you are comfortable on both your road and tri bikes. Have you gone with pretty "normal" sizing for both, meaning appropriate for your height? I am a little over 6 feet tall and am pretty comfortable on my 54 P2C with a 120 stem. However, I had a 56 R3 last year that I could just never get comfortable on.

Being that I am riding a 54cm tri bike and ride mostly on the tip of the saddle, I'd guess my reach is effectively very short for my height. However, being a 54 it has a slightly shorter headtube, and just the headset cap and one small spacer, so a fair amount of drop. So I am wondering if drop is fine for my back, but reach is what bothers me. So possibly when I look for a road bike consider a size smaller than what would be "normal".

Anyone else with low back problems find any correlation between pain and reach vs. stack?

---

---

Portside Athletics Blog

Oh my sympathies.

I have been there and I am here to say that there is much life after spinal fusion. I am another happy Dr. V. patient. I had contacted him on the recommendation of another accomplished triathlete. Dr. V told me that I would need a fusion. I had other doctors tell me that and follow it up with my running career would be finished. V told me just the opposite.

When I finally got up the courage, I called V and we proceeded. it has been less than a year. I had a fusion at L4-5. I walked a lot in the beginning. I followed the advice of Bob Cranny P.T. Soon I was swimming, running and cycling. I just completed Florida 70.3 with a P.R. and (more importantly) with no pain.

It should be noted that I tried everything before. I tried yoga, chiropractic, acupuncture, crystals, rolfing, massage, art, arrosti... the list goes on. Dr. V was the only one to give me hope.

Call him, (http://www.bnasurg.com/villa.html)

Good Luck!

I have degenerative disc disease in 3 lumbar levels as well as 2 bulging discs. I've experienced a lot of stiffness like you are talking about as well is radiating pain in the hips and legs. Not wanting to have any kind of fusion as only a last possible resort I have had significant relief with the following:

1 - Physical Therapy. A good PT can do wonders. I had extreme stiffness in muscles I didn't even know about, like the psoas. Stretching and strengthening these core muscles as well as hands on tissue work really helped a lot.

2 - Epidural injections. When at the most severe this was the only way to get relief. Getting the injections gave me enough relief to go to work and do the exercises I needed for flexibility and strength.

3 - Targeted stretching. This is part of the PT work but you learn the techniques then do them on your own later.

4 - Acupressure. Also learned this from the PT. Using foam rollers and rubber balls to stretch and apply pressure to muscle spasms.

5 - Lose weight/exercise. I know I'm posting on a tri forum but I'm not really in that good of shape especially when I first started training. Like the OP said, being sedentary makes stiffness worse.

6 - Inversion therapy. This is basically gravity boots. I have the inversion table. Start slow, don't fully invert at first and just work up to longer sessions with more incline. Now, I fully invert and do crunches as well.

6 - Lifestyle change. For me this was probably the biggest. When at it's worst I was commuting at least 2hrs/day plus sitting at a desk at least 6hrs/day and building a house on the weekends/evenings. Now, I no longer commute and I work in a more ergonomic sitting position. Also, I just don't over use my back on things like lifting and bending. Bending is huge.

I'm suffering more back pain right now than I was 6 months ago because I've been slacking off on my training and I put back on a few pounds. I'm trying to get back in shape because my back is hurting more. Also, I have not had an epidural injection in 18 months because all of the lifestyle changes and PT had relieved enough pain to where I did not need them.

Good luck!!!

Add me to Team V!
I flew out there from Kansas in May of '07...best decision I ever made. Microdisectomy L4-L5.
My back is all good...I just have to take care of it.

I am definately thankful for Simon and Dr.V!

being from Gibraltar, Europe and 'enjoying' a health service totally different from the American system whatever I do i'll have to do through the health care service paid for by the taxes we pay.....in other words, whatever route you go down through them you have to go with what they have in terms of experts.....you have all obviously gone to this Dr. V privately or through the complex health insurance system ....so out of interest what did your ops cost you guys???

---

Stephen Perera
Gibraltar, Europe
graphics@gibraltar.gi

I was lucky enough to have married a guy with good health insurance........however, in retrospect, it would have been worth it if I had to pay every penny myself.

Sherpasports, I see you are from Lawrence........I'll be headed up for the 70.3. Shall we get together and compare scars? ;-)

G

---

It's a little like wrestling a gorilla.........you don't stop when you're tired.........you stop when the gorilla is tired.

Simon will be there as well...:) We can have a scar party...

I'll probably be a little busy though...I am the RD.

Hmmm, well maybe you can just flash me (your scars, I mean) as you zoom by on a golf cart or something. ;-)

I actually kinda stalked Simon's wife at the race last year and asked about his surgery as I was just starting to communicate with V at that time. He's not racing this year, is he? I spoke with him at Longhorn.......his retirement race(?).

Looking forward to heading back to KS.......have a few Gorillas racing. :-)

G

---

It's a little like wrestling a gorilla.........you don't stop when you're tired.........you stop when the gorilla is tired.

On September 24th I had back surgery for a herniated disk at L5/S1. My disk was blown out and pressing on my nerve to the point that the pain prevented me from walking. I was laid up in bed for months before my surgery.

Our situations are different as it seems that you're not having the same kind of pain as I was, but I can give you some input on what to expect if you go the route of surgery.

I had a discotomy (they removed the disk) and fused my spine by packing ground up coral between my vertebrae. It acted like framework for bone to grow though and once it healed I essentially had two vertebrae become one.

Immediately following surgery I had trouble walking due to my weakened core. Before long I was walking. I had to wear a soft back brace for ten weeks as the bone healed/grew together. At that time I was able to move from simply walking to swimming and light biking. From then on I slowly ramped up my training and eventually added in running.

As I said, I had surgery on September 24th and today I finished a 5 hour hard bike ride and plan to run a half marathon tomorrow. I was swimming all week and did yoga three times. All that to say, I'm back to being very active and know that surgery saved me and my lifestyle. In July I'll be doing IM Lake Placid.

I still have a little pain from the nerve damage prior to my surgery. My low back has lost a little flexibility, but nothing that will slow me down. So, if you do opt for surgery I think you can expect to return to training IF you listen to your surgeon and take the recovery steps one at a time.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask or even PM me.

Good luck.

Interesting thread, I just found out I have some disc degeneration issues, so this is good to know about. Thanks.

---

__________________________________________________
My $0.02 in a world where pennies are obsolete...

in the meantime...can anyone tell me what to avoid doing and what to do to help myself out?

---

Stephen Perera
Gibraltar, Europe
graphics@gibraltar.gi

i'm glad i came across this thread, i feel like you sperera, i have such discomfort in my low back it's unbearable. i just want someone to release the pressure. gardening, lifting, picking up my nephews, coughing, sneezing, you name it - it hurts. i have moderate DDD in L4/5 and L5/S1 and a moderate herniation at L5/S1. i've started to waddle when i walk (like my 80-year-old grandmother) and everything i do is a negotiation - how much bending/leaning/lifting is involved?? the slightest pelvic tilt (back extension) and i'm in EXCRUCIATING pain. it's all very localized and on occasion will have radiating nerve pain into my butt, hips and thighs. i'm extremely discouraged because i've been seeing a neurosurgeon (for another issue with my spinal cord) who says that there is nothing they can do for me, he was speaking on behalf of himself, a neurosurgeon, and on behalf of an orthopaedic surgeon. on paper (or should i say in pictures, MRIs), my degeneration seems moderate (not severe enough that it's bone on bone) and perhaps he feels the amount of pain/discomfort i'm experiencing doesn't "match" the pathology. so then i begin to think, am i going crazy? is it in my head??
he said i will never run again or do any weight bearing exercises, can't lift anything over 5kg and definitely not repetitively. when i heard these words it was like getting the wind knocked out of me. further to this, besides all the fun stuff i like doing, when i asked him how in the world i could ever have kids and care for them, he told me that i could hold/carry/lift them when they are infants but after that i'm &#!%'d. my job requires me to be active, i don't sit at a desk. i'm a traveling sales rep constantly lugging my laptop, samples, lunches, in and out of my car, up and down stairs, blah blah.
i feel so deflated right now and this Dr. V. sounds amazing. i'm lacking a good, sports-oriented surgeon who understands how important (and mandatory) an active life is. this can't be the end for me............. anyone in toronto who knows a good spine doc????

It is worth the trouble and $$ to at least get a consult with Dr V. He will give you the straight dope and at least you will know your options. We did a lot of the initial stuff via email and phone. When I finally traveled to Boulder, we had a pretty good game plan.

FWIW, my symptoms did not match up with the pictures, so don't let that discourage you. Be aggressive in getting the information you need from multiple sources and then make an informed decision. Just because Dr So-and-So is well known in your area, don't assume they are the right doctor for you. I went to arguably the "best" sports ortho in my area and he could do nothing for me.

Good luck!

G

---

It's a little like wrestling a gorilla.........you don't stop when you're tired.........you stop when the gorilla is tired.

i contacted dr. V's office and am in the process of collecting all the necessary paperwork/films/cd's. he said he would do the initial consult over the phone - review my tests and offer his recommendation. if surgery is recommended he mentioned they have a pretty good system to accommodate people traveling in, meeting one day and surgery the next. we'll see what happens. i know that i have degenerative discs and herniations.. the doctor i spoke to here (toronto) made it sound as though my condition isn't "serious" enough for surgery. although, this is the same, 70+ year old man that told me with a straight and serious face, that i would have to think about changing my job, reconsider having children because i should never lift anything over 10lbs, and that life, as i knew it, is over. pretty much. he said i should definitely never run again. there is a difference between being able to function to get through the day and living. i want to live, not just exist. i'm extremely frustrated with our healthcare system - it literally takes MONTHS to get a consult from a surgeon --> 6-8 month waiting list for the surgeon i want to see... and that is just for a consult! can you believe this????

thanks again for the tip on Dr. V. let's hope he can help me...............

one more thing..... i checked feedback for Dr. V. on the RateMD website and he received a 2.6/5. many commented on his bad bedside manner, that he was not attentive, he lost his cool, etc.
can you comment on your experience with him??

Just curious 10 years later how your back is holding up and what you ended up getting done.

---

---

Save: $50 on Speed Hound Recovery Boots | $20 on Air Relax| $100 on Normatec| 15% on Most Absorbable Magnesium

Blogs: Best CHEAP Zwift / Bike Trainer Desk | Theragun G3 vs $140 Bivi Percussive Massager | Normatec Pulse 2.0 vs Normatec Pulse | Speed Hound vs Normatec | Air Relax vs Normatec | Q1 2018 Blood Test Results | | Why HED JET+ Is The BEST value wheelset