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Re: Lap vs. Length........DING [cyfac06] [ In reply to ]
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Uh-oh......nothing worse than a joke that turns into a CLM.

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Re: Lap vs. Length........DING [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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I had a moment of unnerving clarity last night whilst brushing my teeth.

One length is a Lap. Both in accepted swimming terms and, more importantly, grammatically.

As discussed the word Lap comes from the Old English 'Lappen' meaning a piece of cloth that returns on itself (a LAPel for example, or the front of a skirt or robe as it wraps round on top of itself ... which is why your physical lap is called a lap).

The swim term is somewhat confused by the track term. A track lap is completed when you get back to the start. So it it effectively a circuit. But that is not what lap means grammatically.

Grammatically a lap, based on Lappen, is when you double back on yourself or start to retrace / repeat your route. At a track this happens to be a full curcuit but lap denotes the point at which you would start to overLAP your route. At a swimming pool you would start to overLAP your travel at one end of the pool.

So, a lap is not a full circuit, although it can be. It is the point at which you overlap yourself. And in a pool this would indicate a single length because you start to overlap yourself when you start to return on the second length.

The fact that some people call a return to start, two lengths, is likely grammatically (and indeed historically in swim terminology) incorrect. Although if something has been incorrect for long enough it starts to become colloquially correct as the meaning is effectively changing.

There, I feel much better now.

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Re: Lap vs. Length........DING [Jaymz] [ In reply to ]
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Ah. This is the smartest insight I've read so far.

As far as being mental or not, my philosophy class has been driving me nuts lately--it makes me overthink things. I'm a victim, really, of my personal propensity to ponder. I like studying words too.

Believe it or not I'm actually a senior in aerospace engineering, not a liberal arts major.

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Re: Lap vs. Length........DING [Jaymz] [ In reply to ]
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Jaymz wrote:
I had a moment of unnerving clarity last night whilst brushing my teeth.

One length is a Lap. Both in accepted swimming terms and, more importantly, grammatically.

As discussed the word Lap comes from the Old English 'Lappen' meaning a piece of cloth that returns on itself (a LAPel for example, or the front of a skirt or robe as it wraps round on top of itself ... which is why your physical lap is called a lap).

The swim term is somewhat confused by the track term. A track lap is completed when you get back to the start. So it it effectively a circuit. But that is not what lap means grammatically.

Grammatically a lap, based on Lappen, is when you double back on yourself or start to retrace / repeat your route. At a track this happens to be a full curcuit but lap denotes the point at which you would start to overLAP your route. At a swimming pool you would start to overLAP your travel at one end of the pool.

So, a lap is not a full circuit, although it can be. It is the point at which you overlap yourself. And in a pool this would indicate a single length because you start to overlap yourself when you start to return on the second length.

The fact that some people call a return to start, two lengths, is likely grammatically (and indeed historically in swim terminology) incorrect. Although if something has been incorrect for long enough it starts to become colloquially correct as the meaning is effectively changing.

There, I feel much better now.

But what if I am circle swimming and don't overlap my route? Swim up the left side, flip turn off the middle of the wall and return on the right side. Kinda like a really skinny track.
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Re: Lap vs. Length........DING [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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The first person that ever told me the meaning was an olympic gold medalist and she said a lap is their and back. Not saying its correct, but their are some exceptions to your rule.

Styrrell

Styrrell
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Re: Lap vs. Length........DING [Jaymz] [ In reply to ]
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If I swim halfway down the pool, stop, and turn to swim back, then by your definition, I have completed a lap.

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Re: Lap vs. Length........DING [HalfSpeed] [ In reply to ]
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Damn your logic!

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Re: Lap vs. Length........DING [Jaymz] [ In reply to ]
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Jaymz wrote:
Grammatically a lap, based on Lappen, is when you double back on yourself or start to retrace / repeat your route. At a track this happens to be a full curcuit but lap denotes the point at which you would start to overLAP your route. At a swimming pool you would start to overLAP your travel at one end of the pool.

So, a lap is not a full circuit, although it can be. It is the point at which you overlap yourself. And in a pool this would indicate a single length because you start to overlap yourself when you start to return on the second length.

By your own definition, a lap would be once you have completed a length there and a length back and then begin to "overlap yourself." Turning and beginning to come back the same way you went is not a lap because you are not retracing your path, you are still making a new path.

For instance, let's say you are running a triathlon run that is a two lap out and back. Are you going to run out and call it one lap then run back and say you have completed two laps? No, you are going to run out, turn around, run back along the same path (in reverse direction) and then say you have completed ONE lap. After that, you will begin to "overlap yourself" by starting the second "out" portion of the two loop out and back.

Swimming is like a short out and back. You don't call it a lap until you have finished the back portion and begin to "overlap yourself." You do not begin to "overlap yourself" by swimming the same portion in the opposite direction, that is not overlap.

Thanks for clarifying :)
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Re: Lap vs. Length........DING [HalfSpeed] [ In reply to ]
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HalfSpeed wrote:
If I swim halfway down the pool, stop, and turn to swim back, then by your definition, I have completed a lap.

Grammatically you would have 'lapped' yourself ..... or 'overlapped' yourself.

In swim terminology you would have not. It is called a lap because that is where you are supposed to lap yourself, not where you actually lap yourself. It is called a lap before you even get in the pool.

I still call it a length. Why? Because I am trying to communicate and 'length' does not cause confusion.

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Re: Lap vs. Length........DING [jpaulson518] [ In reply to ]
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jpaulson518 wrote:
Turning and beginning to come back the same way you went is not a lap because you are not retracing your path, you are still making a new path.

For instance, let's say you are running a triathlon run that is a two lap out and back. Are you going to run out and call it one lap then run back and say you have completed two laps? No, you are going to run out, turn around, run back along the same path (in reverse direction) and then say you have completed ONE lap. After that, you will begin to "overlap yourself" by starting the second "out" portion of the two loop out and back.

Swimming is like a short out and back. You don't call it a lap until you have finished the back portion and begin to "overlap yourself." You do not begin to "overlap yourself" by swimming the same portion in the opposite direction, that is not overlap.

Thanks for clarifying :)

You are referring to the terms it has become. I was talking about the original term. A Lappen is effectively where you start to overlap, or originally in Old English, where the material starts to sit on top of itself. When you turn in a pool you are effectively starting to sit on your original path. When you lap on a track you effectively start to sit on your original path .... by sitting on your original path you are overLAPping.

In your example an out and back on a run course should, grammatically I believe, be called a lap at the point you double back although tradition has taken over from the grammatical and lap is now the seemingly accepted term for having returned to the start point.

I am not arguing either way. In fact I call, or have called, a 2 length swim a lap. I am just saying where the word came from which should have some bearing on why a lap is called a lap. Whenever you take one term and use it for something else then there is always some ambiguity, the fact that a swim lane is point to point and a track is a circuit will inevitably create an issue.

The fact remains that the word lap comes from Lappen, and returning to the start point was not necessary in this original meaning.

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Re: Lap vs. Length........DING [Jaymz] [ In reply to ]
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What if I circle swim?

Sorry :)

jaretj
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Re: Lap vs. Length........DING [Zenmaster28] [ In reply to ]
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Zenmaster28 wrote:
But what if I am circle swimming and don't overlap my route? Swim up the left side, flip turn off the middle of the wall and return on the right side. Kinda like a really skinny track.

If you are doing something unique then call it what you want.

A 'Lappen' never completely retraced the exact route, in fact it could not because it was a physical thing and it would get in the way of itself. Kind of like a really skinny track.

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Re: Lap vs. Length........DING [jpaulson518] [ In reply to ]
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jpaulson518 wrote:
Jaymz wrote:
Grammatically a lap, based on Lappen, is when you double back on yourself or start to retrace / repeat your route. At a track this happens to be a full curcuit but lap denotes the point at which you would start to overLAP your route. At a swimming pool you would start to overLAP your travel at one end of the pool.

So, a lap is not a full circuit, although it can be. It is the point at which you overlap yourself. And in a pool this would indicate a single length because you start to overlap yourself when you start to return on the second length.


By your own definition, a lap would be once you have completed a length there and a length back and then begin to "overlap yourself." Turning and beginning to come back the same way you went is not a lap because you are not retracing your path, you are still making a new path.

For instance, let's say you are running a triathlon run that is a two lap out and back. Are you going to run out and call it one lap then run back and say you have completed two laps? No, you are going to run out, turn around, run back along the same path (in reverse direction) and then say you have completed ONE lap. After that, you will begin to "overlap yourself" by starting the second "out" portion of the two loop out and back.

Swimming is like a short out and back. You don't call it a lap until you have finished the back portion and begin to "overlap yourself." You do not begin to "overlap yourself" by swimming the same portion in the opposite direction, that is not overlap.

Thanks for clarifying :)

If we're gonna nitpick, I disagree with your example... In a Tri/run, you're not exactly doubling back the same as you are in a lane of a pool, since you're typically using opposite sides of a roadway to avoid the opposing stream of runners. It's effectively still a loop or circuit just like a track, only a long, skinny one.

I guess you could similarly split hairs if you're circle swimming with others sharing a lane, but as a convention I still see it being defined as in a race situation, with one swimmer per lane, in which case the fabric/lapel analogy is perfect; the fold/turn signifies the 'lap' point.
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Re: Lap vs. Length........DING [ZackC.] [ In reply to ]
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ZackC. wrote:
Ah. This is the smartest insight I've read so far.

As far as being mental or not, my philosophy class has been driving me nuts lately--it makes me overthink things. I'm a victim, really, of my personal propensity to ponder. I like studying words too.

Believe it or not I'm actually a senior in aerospace engineering, not a liberal arts major.

It actually makes far more sense to me that you're in engineering, as more of the engineers I know are compulsive hair-splitters and will debate precise definitions to the point of death, whereas the philosphers/liberal artists are far more likely to simply agree that everything is relative to the observer's perception (and then just move on to their next bong hit...)
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Re: Lap vs. Length........DING [Jaymz] [ In reply to ]
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Jaymz wrote:
You are referring to the terms it has become. I was talking about the original term. A Lappen is effectively where you start to overlap, or originally in Old English, where the material starts to sit on top of itself.

A Lappen is the entire piece of fabric that is laid over the fabric below it. It doesn't really make sense to use this word to define where a lap BEGINS, as the word is not describing a beginning and end point but rather an entire length of fabric that has been laid back over an entire other piece of fabric. (So is a lap the back part of an out and back and the out part is just nothing?)

We are not constructing garments, we are exercising. It is educational to see where the word lap originates from, but it is not really contextual to the debate when you think about the two different kinds of things. Otherwise a lap on a track would make zero sense because you are never folding back over your self, you are looping back around.

Furthermore, when exercising, a lap is defined as a complete circuit where you end at the point that you began. Sure, lots of people use the word lap at the pool in different ways, and that's fine, but to call one length of a pool a lap makes a lap in swimming completely different than any other lap in any other sport.

I have used both in the past. But the pool I currently swim at has a sign that says "35.2 laps = 1 mile." It is a 25 yard pool.
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Re: Lap vs. Length........DING [jpaulson518] [ In reply to ]
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jpaulson518 wrote:
Jaymz wrote:
A Lappen is the entire piece of fabric that is laid over the fabric below it.

No it isn't. A lapel for example is not laid over an entire other piece, or a robe that partially returns over its initial piece.

We are not constructing garments but the origin of the word is important. Like I said, the word has been re-used which causes ambiguity. The word may have also changed meaning, as words can, through use.

Like I have said in numerous posts. This is likely the origin of the word lap when used in sport but once you bastardize a word for your own use you have effectively opened the floodgates because whatever people think is neither wrong or right. If people refer to a lap as a length or 2 lengths, they are not wrong or right. How can they be? Who's the judge? From a communication point of view using the word 'length' would seem a far clearer way of explaining what is meant regardless of whether it that is what it is called traditionally. A word is useless if it does not communicate effectively. And lap would seem to fall into that category now. If you say the word lap no-one knows which side of the lap fence you are sitting on unless you happen to be ensconced in your own group of Lap devotees.

I am going to swim 2 lengths leaves people knowing exactly what you mean. 2 laps does not.

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