Yes.

And as the acting president of Canada, I endorse this up here too.

Done.

hah, this is just one of those things our language struggles with.

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This is going to be really hard for me to accept.... its a lot easier for me to count 30 laps (there and back 1) than it is to count 60 (there 1, back here 2?)!

I think the confusion is that a lap in everything else is one circuit so a lap in a 25m pool would be 50m and a length would be 25m since that is the length of the pool. This is my nonswimming view. Its much easier just to say a distance though since that is understood by all.

I have always understood a Lap to be down and back (50 yds.). A length is 25 yds. So we will continue to use that thank you anyway.

Yeah, I don't do flip turns either.

Me too and I grew up as a swimmer, albeit it a Canadian one. Mind you, I don't really care - counting by yardage is way easier...

BUZZ!

If you mean "length", and you think that when you say "lap" that there is some chance that the listener will use the dictionary definition of lap (one circuit of a racecourse or track), then use the word length instead of defining lap as a 1/2 of a circuit.

Maybe that's the terminology that has always been used, but that doesn't make it right. Is it any harder to say "length", and does it cause less confusion? If so, then ditch the confusing term lap and use the less confusing word length.

Either that, or don't be surprised when people assume you need to get back to where you started before you can call it a lap.

According to my Total Immersion book lap = length and is widely accepted by all competitive swimmers / coaches.

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Here here! Agreed - all in favor say "aye"

Everyone, return back to your business.

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Really? If that's the case, I think you've got much bigger fish to fry than worrying about lap/length.

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The most cogent argument that I have heard on the subject is that a lap = a single completion of the course. In swimming, given that the course is a straight line, that means a single length and therefore 1 length = 1 lap. However, those of us in the US live in a Nascar world, where completing a lap means you end up where you started ... this is further supported by track and field where laps result in ending where you begin ... (unless you're running the 100m or 200m but why quibble). Also, I have a good friend who has been a competitive swimmer his whole life (not primarily in the US), and to him a lap means 50yds in a 25yd pool.

As a result of the confusion potential, I have personally excised "lap" from my vocabulary when I'm talking about specific quantities of traversing the pool and only use it in the general "I'm going to the pool to swim laps and hate every minute of it" ... when specificity is required it is: "I'm going to swim 80 lengths and hate every one of them"

Lap does not equal Length.

What is this Brave New World? Let us maintain the definition of words!

Let me ask you a question... What does it mean to lap someone in your swimming language?

I prefer lap to length, and width to lap.

well, i suspect in a 25yd pool that would mean being 25yds ahead of them...........sorta/kinda........

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More importantly... if your pool is 25m and mine is 25y in length can you give me the equivalent break down.

How can you expect us to really agree on lap versus length when my pool is really only 22.86m long?

You get all the pools either 25m/50m or 25y/50y and then we can figure out what is a length and what is a lap.

I take a "circuit" to mean the shortest non-fractional distance offered by a particular course, that is to say that a circuit involves covering the distance between the beginning and the end.

The relation between the starting and ending point is relevant, but the running convention can't and shouldn't be applied because THIS ISN'T RUNNING. Pools aren't round, and swimmers don't necessarily swim a circular race. Like I said, in different contexts, words have different meanings. Real swimmers know a "lap" to be the distance between the beginning and the end of the pool.

Question for those of you that say a "lap" is down and back:

When my little summer league swimmers race a 25m freestyle in a 25m pool, is their race 1/2 a lap?


That said, the swimming parlance breaks down when discussing whether or not a swimmer has been "lapped." To be lapped in swimming means that a competing swimmer has completed two more lengths than you.

Like Jack says, I think it's a weakness/deficiency in our language--it almost seems that the word "lap" shouldn't have even been applied to swimming at all.

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Sure. The same way that a 200 meter race on a 400 meter track is 1/2 a lap. It is what it is.


I'll agree with that. Length seems to be much less confusing and very descriptive.

I know you don't race with more than one person in a lane but for traininig if there are more than two of you in a lane then you are swimming circles? Does this mean if there are more less than 3 people a lap could be 25 and 3+ a lap is 50?

And yes I would say a 25 free would be 1/2 a lap just like the 200 on a track is 1/2 a lap.

Fuck 'em.

To: I prefer lap to length, and width to lap. .................I perfer my wife in my lap, she perfers my length, niether on of us want to change our width

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lap
1. one circuit of a racecourse or track

When you are done here, please move on to the definition of the word "strength."

Thanks in advance.

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I still remember when I raced my first 50 as a kid and the announcer stated that the race was to be 2 lengths of the pool. It counfused the heck out of my 7 year old mind because we always called them laps.

But if you think that a beginner is confused by using 100's or 200's, why would you ever think that laps would be better? You now have a choice:

A) Use the term length.
B) Be stuck you your ways and insist on using the term lap and try to rationalize it some how.

Agreed. Also, when swimming long distances, a "lap" counter is used - and a 500 yard free is 20 "laps". Otherwise it would be length counter and it's not.

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Because here in America, we teach our young swimmers (at least in 100% of the year-round, summer league, and high school swimming programs in NC IME) that lap and length are equivalent. It is evidently a glaring imprecision in our language, but only so if people are aware that more than one meaning of the word "lap" can be connoted. Until I got to NC State, I probably put in (literally) millions of yards in the pool and had never heard of a "lap" being down and back.



To the people who make the argument that my definition of a "lap" changes with the length of the pool, I agree, but that is implicit, uncomplicated, and essentially irrelevant. When swimming in a 25m pool, the length of the pool is unambiguous, and therefore the issue of one lap being 25m or 25yd in a 25m pool is irrelevant. As I previously said, I define one lap to be the distance across the pool once, and this quantity is invariant (with the obvious exception of pools that have the option of moveable bulkheads). If you define a "lap" to be down in back, then you have the same issue. I'm not tying the definition of a lap to one particular pool length any more so than those of you who believe a lap is down and back are, I'm merely illustrating a point. If I were arguing your point I would make the statement that a lap was 50yd at a 25yd pool, 100m at a 50m pool, and so on and so forth. Don't get sidetracked here...

It doesn't matter that somebody has drawn lines on a track that measure out where each fraction of one circuit is. The shortest non-fractional distance offered by the track is a lap, and in the pool the shortest non-fractional distance offered is the distance between one end in the other. That is how I choose to define the lap.





To people like klehner that don't have anything to add to the discussion, please feel free to fuck off. It is obviously a contentious issue (and one worth discussing, at that), as evidenced by the fact that there are so many replies. If you don't care to join in on the conversation that's your own prerogative, but there's no need to waste space announcing your displeasure.

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I agree. You lap someone by passing them (2x pool distance).
The only time I would use the term "lap" in swimming is specifically for the above case.

<yup, i'm a swimmer>

aye!

It's not that they're confused, necessarily--the distance is unambiguous, it's just that there is an issue in translating the yardage into the actual number of laps/lengths/whatever. For example, if your coach gives you a 3000 continuous, most people would have to translate that into 120 lengths of a 25yd/m pool. Beginners just have a hard time with the math on stuff like that.

While using lap=down and back may be the "correct" connotation according to the dictionary and other sports, it is (what I consider to be) an unsatisfactorily complicated way of describing a set like this:

10 x (200 cruise, w/ the middle 50 sprint)

in translating that to "laps," it is much easier to say "3 laps easy, 2 laps fast, 3 laps easy" than it is to say "1 1/2 laps easy, 1 lap fast, 1 1/2 laps easy." People do well thinking in whole numbers.

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I grew up in the 1970's and 1980's as an age group and high school swimmer.
a "lap" always was equivalent to 1 length of the pool. Never heard it any other way.

Until I entered this Tri world, where people swear that a lap = 2 lengths, and that they've never heard it any other way.

I'm voting for 1lap = 1 length. (is this a pool poll?)

There's your problem. GO HEELS!!!!!

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Must be a slow day around here if you're arguing about lap vs length. Just swim and don't worry about it




What about ocean swims? What's a lap? What's a length?

You never heard it because your head was underwater for millions of yards.

I define lap as there and back. Oops. Does it matter? How can one even get from point A to point B if an infinite number of events can be identified that need to happen before the arrival at B, and you cannot possible reach the beginning nor end of the last event.. therefore motion is impossible anyways and this discussion useless!

my brother's kids are starting swim team. The coach, who also taught one of them swimming lessons, told him that a lap was a length. He thought the coach misspoke until I was visiting and went to the pool with him to do a swim workout. his 7 year old was counting laps for me and when I finished spit out a number that my brother thought was wrong. I explained it was swim team speak. My brother was fine with that, except that the same coach, when teaching swimming lessons uses lap to mean down and back. My brother asked him why and the coach said it was a lot easier to get swim team parents to accept lap = length than a parent of a kid who plays soccer but needs to learn how to swim. The coach said he just doesn't have the time to argue about it at swim lessons, and he's never had to argue about it at swim team. They parents just accept it as part of swim team speak.

Yep me too...... how long the pool from one side to the other is the length. Ending up back from where you started is a lap.

I agree with this, and it highlights an inconsistency.

I liken this to what happens to regular geometry once you apply it to a non-planar cases. We're always taught that a triangle has 180 degrees, but in non-Euclidean geometry a triangle could have 270 degrees. Runners, who are used to the geometry of their particular sport feel the need to apply their language to swimming, but I have to challenge the appropriateness of this. If you come from the "triangle always has 180 degrees" background, it is foolish to reject the notion that a triangle couldn't have more than 180 degrees based simply on the idea that triangles always had 180 degrees; when there is evidence that triangles have 270 degrees.

QED swimmers are spherical and runners are flat.

This is meant to be humorous, but also to highlight the flaws in many of your arguments. Just because A implies B in one instance does not mean that the same conclusion can be drawn in another instance, particularly if substantive examples can be provided that show that the two instances are not analogous. I reject the majority of runners' arguments about track laps vs. swimming laps on this basis.

I do appreciate those of you who have made a serious attempt at arguing/settling this issue--it is a fascinating topic indeed.

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I'm with you, but read the thread and you'll understand why it's such a contentious issue.

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How about instead of stating your opinion as fact you defend it? This isn't a poll, this is a discussion.

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Adding to the confusion - a link on another ST thread points to this.

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I am a new swimmer (less than a year) and all my workouts have only distances listed. They don't include reference to laps/lengths. Now, some of the longer intervals (say a continuous 1500) have been listed as something like "break this down as a continuous 10x150." Since I don't have the experience keeping up with longer sets, this does help me figure it out as I do it more often.

So, if the concern is working with beginner swimmers, I think you can use distances, even if it needs to be broken up as above, and it can be easily understood. In your example, I would easily understand it if written as 10 x (75 easy, 50 fast, 75 easy). Just a small peek into the mind of a beginner swimmer.

ETA: GO HEELS!

Very funny. Although, the commercial that ran before the 2000 Olympics where a guy is depicted as swimming butterfly across the Sydney Harbor shows him counting once for each time across.


This discussion is useful to me. If you read the thread instead of flippantly replying as you did you would know that this discussion arose out of some substantial confusion at the swim practice I was running last Wednesday, and for me, this topic is intriguing enough to spend time rationally discussing. Comments such as yours contribute nothing to the conversation, and serve to illustrate only your simple-mindedness or single-mindedness.

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Haha link?

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Wow, I thought they only had this argument on BT.

Isn't it easiest of all to say 75 ez, 50 hard, 75 ez? At least it is to me...... I would get totally lost saying "laps." I never swam competitively but the one year in high school they tried to make us water polo players join the swim team, but I just always think of it in terms of distance.

All the beginners in the slow lane at my masters get this after a couple sessions.

spherical... are you calling me fat?!
As i noted in my previous post - not a runner. you will only hear the term of someone getting lapped in swimming when they're re-passed up in the pool.

This was the conclusion I settled on. The debate can rage on, and I'll decide whether or not to change my ways later on, but in the mean time I'll just be giving out all my sets as distances, and by now my athletes should understand what I want them to do when I tell them to swim a 25 or a 50 or a 75 or a 100...

It's funny how I've been coaching a summer league team with kids aged 4-18 and there was never a question (either from the kids or the parents), but college kids can't get it straight. It seems I'm part of the problem, but as I said above, I'll reserve judgement on that for later.

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Not to be mean, but the confusion arose because you used a term that you knew has different meanings to different people. If you had used lengths (which is unambiguous) or given them distance and let the people do the math themselves you could have avoided the confusion.

BTW people are going to be flippant on slowtwitch, no need to get upset about it.

To: Because here in America, we teach our young swimmers (at least in 100% of the year-round, summer league, and high school swimming programs in NC IME) that lap and length are equivalent. It is evidently a glaring imprecision in our language, but only so if people are aware that more than one meaning of the word "lap" can be connoted.
If language is used, or a definition of a word is to convey an idea........................and the imprecision is in our language is if people are aware of more than one meaning of lap................................then that is caused by swimmers, less than 5% of the population introducing that different meaning. It seems only swimmers taught in North America by other swimmers seem to go by a length = a lap. So as a swimmer in the minority you want evryone else to standardize due to the fact you swim and use it differently than everyone else. That for swimmers taught by swimmers, this is the term used,ok.......but to get pissed at the majority because the define the word by the concept that 95% + of the population uses. Well, I just don't get it. Guess I am not smart enough

Lap is down and back. You've "lapped" the pool. Length is one end to the other end.

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i feel dumberer for having read this. Down is a length. Back is a length. Down and back is a lap. A lap can be a length of distance, but length is not the colloquially correct term for "down and back". You are teaching the kids wrong. Strong work.

oh, and Ding.

I'm not even sure why and dignify me with a response but you just stated your opinion is fact. also as I mentioned in previous posts I'm not the only 1 teaching the swimmers convention for lap=1length. i've met a few olympians that use that convention. in fact I have not met a single 1 that doesnt.

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I am not teaching any kids. I agree with you.......Your rplying to the wrong person I think

as I mentioned before, the english language allows us to have different meanings of different contextS. I'm not asking anybody change the dictionary definition of lap, in fact if you were to google it you would find the dictionary.com offers 10+ definitions of the word lap. is a word that has a differentmeaning in many different contexts.

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I'm not trying to defend anything just commenting on MI-Mumps post. I believe what your saying... and that a lot of the swim team community defines it that way. I was on swim team for a few years in grade school and don't recall....... I've always thought that a lap was down and back..... so if they were saying otherwise it didn't stick.
Since I'm not coaching anyone....... do my distances in yards or meters it's never been an issue. ( just 1/2 the number you would count for the distance ) I would say it's more intuitively obvious for people to think a lap is down and back. If it weren’t I don't think there would be this problem. I can't think of another circuit defining term that causes this much confusion

I think the problem, small though it is, stems from the use of a pre-defined word to describe something similar yet different. Almost a colloquialism, where the word is used in everyday speech but not correct in it's formal state.

The term lap comes from Old English 'lappen', refering to a piece of cloth that doubles back on itself, such as a lapel for example . This doubling back would also insinuate that a lap should be a return to source rather than just one way. The word lap, in English language, is used to describe a circuit. This would also include the out and back in a pool length. (Your own physical 'lap' is effectively where clothing - robes skirts etc, overlaps - hence the name lap)

However, the terminology has been taken and altered with regards to swimming, the Olympic Rules dictating that a lap is a single length of the pool.

Bearing in mind the generally accepted habit of altering the definition of words in the English language to use in a niche setting (i.e. Swimming) then I think the correct term should be 'Lap' for a single length of the pool.

Lap is not the correct term when looking at the English language but it is the correct term for it's niche role in relation to swimming when using the Olympic Rulebook as a standard. If you are using other standards then I guess that meaning applies.

As you can probably tell I looked up some of this, not previously being an expert in the word 'lap'.

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To: Lap is not the correct term when looking at the English language but it is the correct term for it's niche role in relation to swimming when using the Olympic Rulebook as a standard. If you are using other standards then I guess that meaning applies.
This is an excellent articulation of the matter........Great job

Please consider me an "exception" to your "rule."


At the start of a 200 yard freestyle in a scy pool, the starter says "swimmers will swim 8 lengths of the pool." If a length were equal to a lap, they would say "swimmers will swim 8 laps of the pool." But they don't, now, do they?


Additionally, when you run around a track, you run a LAP from your start point all around back to where you started. A lap in the pool is the same thing

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TI isn't ST acceptable.

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pun intended?

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NO ONE swims long course yards.

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Or, their race is one length.

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Kind of like drag racers doing laps?

Umm, no. Length= here to there, Lap= here, there, and back.

Next topic.

It's also just as easy to say "3 lengths easy, 2 lengths fast, 3 laps easy."

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A track and a pool are both in Euclidean space :D

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This ^^

(although I am now convinced that the lap=length at least has some merit amongst swimmers, even if it is ridiculous - good job ST!)

Oh yeah - Go Heels!

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There we go. MarkyV is fish extrordinare (sp).

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Rappstar has an engineering degree from Princeton, so he should be able to verify this

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My dad always tried to correct me in the 'proper' use of lap (one round-trip) when I used in in a swimming context (2 laps = a 50)... I tried to explain to him that all the swimmers know what we mean, and if he's confused it just shows that he's not a swimmer. None of us swimmers have any trouble making the switch to counting full-circuit laps when we go to a track. It's just idiomatic, like other bits of jargon that are used peculiarly in a specific context.

I'll give you one practical bit of distinction that might resonate for a non-swimmer... if you count laps like a swimmer, then odds are always facing one way and evens returning the opposite direction so if you start to get fuzzy it's usually easier to catch it and correct it before you're off by 2, whereas if you count laps like a runner it's a lot easier to lose count when doing, say, 400s or longer... e.g., if you catch yourself coming off the turn at the shallow (starting) end and the count in your head is on 12, then you know right away you forgot to advance the count to 13 since 12 has to be facing the other way, whereas if you were counting by 'runners' laps and you start to doubt yourself on lap 6 you could be wrong for the whole lap and there's no way of catching it because it's the same in both directions.

The flipturns wisecrack is very telling... I don't know anyone who does flipturns (worth a crap at least) who still insists on counting laps like a non-swimmer. Maybe the non-swimmers should worry about that instead so they can pass the 'club' test instead of trying to convince swimmers our jargon is improper.

Another iimportant linguistic question is when do you eat Dinner? at noon time or early evening? When there is room for confusion, it is better to be clear, lengths is more clear. FYI, the answer is Breakfast, lunch and supper for the meals debate that is sure to start.

the swimmer hath spoken. debate over :)

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When this is finished and decided, could you please tell everyone that a stroke is "1" arm pull and not "2"!! Always gets me when some adult onset swimmer gets on here and says that they take 11 strokes per lap, I MEAN LENGHT!!!

Swimmers count by metres or yards not by lap/length...

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back in the day there was a few LCY pools but they were 55 yards (=50.29 metres)

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Moronic. I've been swimming about as far back as I can remember and avoid "lap" due to its ambiguity. Stick to distance and you avoid all that elitist nonsense.

maybe regional then? I swam with plenty of distance swimmers... nobody counted any different, they just counted higher. Again, 'Laps' were only ever a debate/question/ambiguity when non-swimmers entered the mix.

I swim 22 meter widths at my pool..

No wonder I'm not improving.

You feel dumb??? Imagine if you were a swimmer!

LOL. Actually, in a 25 y x 25 m pool like my school's, I swim 25 yd widths too.

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Arguing the point on this topic is fairly useless as, depending on your background, it will have different, yet correct, answers.

Another good example is geographic. How many continents are there? Five? Seven? Nine? Depending on where you live, or were educated, this number will be different.

Interestingly the French for both 'lap' (with reference to distance) and 'length' is 'longeur' I think. Do any of us call it a Longeur? Most will not because their background is different.

As a side note, the French are never right.

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You have a counter at each end of the pool or just one?

So are you suggesting that using the term lap as equal to a length somehow makes you a better swimmer? I'm going to go on a stretch and say you're wrong.

Are you also going to tell us coconuts migrate?

You are wrong.

A lap (in any endever) must finish where it started.

Anyone who doesn't know this to be true is wrong. Absolutely 100% wrong.

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Haha I do take 11 of "your pulls" per lap. It's not that hard when you streamline for like 40% of the lap anyway.
That is a much less contentious issue, but I agree that a stroke is one arm.

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Good share asshat.

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BRILLIANT work here sir. I don't know how I didn't think to look at the Olympic/FINA rules, but if that doesn't say it, I don't know what will. In the sport of swimming, the word is "lap" and the distance is across the pool, not down and back--handed down from the organizers themselves. If you could add a link or something substantiating your claim (not that I don't believe you) that would be most excellent indeed.

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I may be an asshat (whatever that is) but a lap is a lap. There AND back. Lap.

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I've never heard a starter specify that any race was anything other than a certain length in yd or m. At least, I've never heard a USA Swimming meet official, starter or otherwise, specify the race distance in lengths or laps--perhaps it was a non-USA Swimming trained/paid starter?

I run the occasional summer league meet whenever one of our year-rounder's parents isn't available, and I always just say something along the lines of..."The next event will be the boys open 50m freestyle. Swimmers on the blocks....."

I would agree that "lengths" is less ambiguous to those who did not grow up swimming in the USA, but where I'm from the term "lap" is very unambiguous.

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As I've told several of the other idiots that did what you did, this isn't a poll, it's a discussion. Please don't go posting your opinion as fact.

Either post something thoughtful, or piss off.

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Sorry about the unintelligible response to your post. I was using the speech to text feature on my phone, and it failed hard.

Colloquially, lap is the correct term for one length where I'm from. For more reasons than one, and particularly where I'm from, I'm not teaching them wrong, nor are any of the amazing swimming programs we have here in Charlotte. Swim MAC, the team based out of the pool that I train at, routinely turns out D1 caliber swimmers. Team Elite, which consists of current and future Olympic caliber athletes also uses the same convention. Oh, and as Jaymz pointed out, the rules governing the Olympic swimming competitions also use lap in the sense that it is equal to one length.

I feel "dumberer" for having read many of the posts like yours that present one's opinion as fact, and provide no justification.

Ding.

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He's right. Where I'm from, legit (lifelong, competitive) swimmers use the lap=length convention, whereas the only people I've ever heard the lap=down and back are converts and are usually not very good. There's a correlation, but not necessarily a causation.

But that's not really relevant, except that the convention in the sport is what we should default to when using the word in the context of the sport. In Bowling, a strike is knocking down all the pins. In Baseball, a strike is a swing and a miss, or failing to swing at a ball in the strike zone, or hitting the ball foul (except when this would result in a third strike, in which case it doesn't count against the batter).

I think it would be ridiculous to try to tell a bowler that a "strike" would be the equivalent of missing all the pins, or throwing a gutterball, and that's analogous to the issue here. Non-swimmers are trying to tell swimmers how to use a word that is ours, in this case. When the word is used in the context of swimming, I'm the one that assigns meaning to it, along with all of my legit swimmer friends. We choose to assign the meaning of lap=length, therefore that is the accepted convention for the sport by all who are legitimate swimmers.

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When I first started swimming, my team trained in the pool at a retirement home. The pool was 20yd long. When we swam 100's we did 5 laps. We also did 60's and 80's instead of 50's and 75's. That was really freakin weird at first, but I got used to it. We were a small team training in a crappy pool, but we turned out a couple D1 caliber swimmers nonetheless. Brings back fond memories...

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Sorry. I forgot about the meritless arrogance of some long time "competitive swimmers". Off I shall piss.

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 It's always unpleasant when a lap swimming Zack crosses path with a length swimming Zack.

If it is a discussion, then why are you dismissing people who you do not consider 'swimmers'. Again, I do not think swimming experience has any merit in the discussion of a words syntax. If Ryan Lochte or Michael Phelps used the word 'lap' in the non swimmer term, they would not be any slower. Personally, using lap as 2 lengths is easier to track but in Masters I know what they are referring to. Honestly your posts seem slightly inflammatory towards new swimmers.

I don't sweat it if people use 'lap' or 'length' interchangebly or if 'lap' is used to represent 2 lengths because swim sets are usually given in distance and I can figure out what they mean.

If someone says 'I just swam 50 laps' ... that usually has to be followed with the question 'How many yards (or meters) did you swim?' Because someone may mean 50 lengths whereas someone else may mean 100 lengths.

Interestingly, USA Swimming Rules & Regs define 'length' but not 'lap':

http://www.usaswimming.org/...11%20Rule%20Book.pdf

...and he has no idea of my swimming ability or background. Also he requests (no, demands) that I "post something thoughtful" after calling me an "asshat" (whatever that is) and an idiot.

This guy must be super awesome.

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USA Swimming definition of "Lap Counter"

Lap Counter
The large numbered cards (or the person turning the cards) used during the freestyle events 500 yards or longer. Counting is done from the end opposite the starting end. The numbers on the cards are "odd numbers" only with the final lap being designated by a bright orange card.

Therefore, when a swimmer leaves the blocks, at the end of the 1st LENGTH the LAP counter will read 1. At the end of the 3rd LENGTH, the LAP counter will read 3. 1 LAP = 1 LENGTH. These are the undisputed facts of the case.

According to the Olympic Committee a lap is a single length of the pool.

Check out the glossary terms on the bottom right of THIS screen, hit 'L' to see the lap definition.

However ...

... as I mentioned before. This is just the Olympic definition. It is not THE definition. There is no right and wrong answer to this question, just individual views based on local and historical variances on the theme. That said, the Olympic definition would seem to be the one to look for when dealing 'across the board' a bit like English being the international language.

If you are desperate for a baseline then 'Lap' would seem to be one length. The people who think otherwise are not necessarily wrong though.

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I'm certainly not suggesting it makes ME a better swimmer, only that in my observation of swimming regularly from middle school through college in both competitive swim-only and multisports contexts that bucking this particular verbal convention (as practiced in all competitive swimming communities I've ever been a part of) was/is a pretty reliable indicator that the 'offender' did not grow up as a swimmer and therefore was quite likely to be [gross generalization alert] not very fast and poor at flip turns.

As for coconuts... "The swallow or housemarten may fly south to seek warmer climes in winter, yet these are not strangers to our lands..." (sorry if I buggered that one; I only went off the top of my head).

You are wrong.

It's 'endeavor' (or 'endeavour' for our British friends).

Anyone who doesn't know this to be true is wrong. Absolutely 100% wrong.

I called you an asshat and an idiotic because you posted something idiotic--something that merited me calling you that. You must have forgotten about that though.

I'm being dismissive of people who promote their opinion as fact without justification. There have been offenders on both sides, but generally it's the people saying things like you did in your original post. That, combined with the fact that most people who use your connotation of the word lap don't come from a swimming background means that I am dismissing them, but not because they're beginners--because they learned how to swim recently and now think they're the seminal authority on swimming jargon. Those are the people i'm dismissing. I think lap equals length. If you don't like it, or think it's unjustified then you're more than willing to present your opinion and reasoning. I'm in the business of refuting rational arguments, not dismissing.

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Not with the proper Poincaré map to keep the momentum vectors consistent.

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They are not wrong, but then neither are you.

A lap by it's very nature has to overlap, or meet it's end.

A 'Lap' is a name given to a length in some swimming terminology. As such that is also correct. It is being used as a noun rather than an adjective in this scenario.

Again, two people arguing two different points.

Another example is someone called 'Rod'. It is their name. They do not, by default, have to be a straight cylindrical bar of metal or wood, it is simply their name.

The term 'Lap' when used in SOME swimming terminology is simply the name given to a single length of the pool.

The term 'Lap' when used in english grammar refers to something circuitous. For example, a race loop.

Just because one is true does not meant the other is not.

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So then, what exactly is the point of swimmers even using the term lap?

Only the end opposite the starting blocks.

It also only has odd numbers on it. For a race like the 500 you usually put it in on either the 3, 5, or 7 (some swimmers don't like to see the low numbers) then show every (odd) number thereafter through 17. When the counter would read 19 you flip it over to the orange square.

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It's common in casual conversations, and in talking about odd distances. If coach gives a set with weird distances or a weird pacing breakdown, I translate to laps. Or if you get something like a 5min swim for distance you would commonly report your accomplishment to the coach in laps. It's also occasionally used when counting stroke or breath rates. I've seen a lot of people describe stroke rate in strokes/min which is useful in online discussions where the pool may not be an understood length. Ex: At my pool I average 11 strokes/lap and 3 or 4 breaths/lap (equivalent to 11 total arm pulls per 25 and 3 or 4 breaths per 25) There are lots of uses, and truthfully nobody gives it any thought because 99.999% of people I might have such a discussion with know exactly what I mean when I say "stroke," "lap," etc.

It's something I honestly gave almost zero thought to until last week. I had heard some PE teachers use the "other" connotation, but I pretty much just ignored them.

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I'm having a hard time understanding what all the fuss is about. Some clarification would help.


What is your definition of lap in swimming?

What is your definition of length for swimming?

In swimming, one length is pretty universally understood to be the distance between the ends of the pool--once across the pool, etc.

I say a swimming lap is equivalent to a length. Others say a lap is down and back. Most people who grew up swimming would equate "lap" to "length." Most swimming converts, and evidently Canadians/Frenchies who grew up swimming use lap equals down and back. The lap equals length connotation is consistent with verbiage used by several governing bodies in swimming, but it is inconsistent with the technical definition of a lap in other sports. Therein lies the rub.

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This is the funniest post I've ever read on ST. The use of the phrase "seminal authority on swimming jargon" is the pies de resistance.

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Your correct. Good catch. I'll try to do better in the future.

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I think the bigger shock in what you describe is that people are not able to divide by the length of their pool, and need to be catered to! If they could (and it's not like a difficult division in a pool workout), they could count whatever they wanted (ponies, too) in their head. And use all the time saved arguing "lap" versus "length" to get onto the metric system train :p

I am still confused. I started AAU swimming at age 10. I am a whisker away from 60 now. Every lap I swam in all those years was 1 length of the pool, yet when I lapped someone I was two lengths ahead which should actually be two laps ahead by the way we define a lap. I don't think there is a age group swimmer alive who doesn't understand Zack, or an adult onset swimmer who does. It is a swimmer thing, if you ain't one you never will understand. Now if I can just get the Docs to understand the difference between an EKG and an ECG the world would be a better place.

I think we're beginning to get at an "all squares are rectangles" debate, which should definitely please our Euclidean friends on this thread. All lengths are laps, but not all laps are lengths

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Here's an "adult onset swimmer" (age 26) who understands this whole, utterly pointless discussion. That's not to say I understand Zack, who seems to have a length of something stuck up his butt.

And I have been around Real Swimmers who used the word length (or a variant thereof) to describe the upcoming set ("10 10-lenkers" was code for 10x250).

Effective communicators use the language of the audience, not the language of the speaker. Everyone understands what a length is, so if there's any doubt about the language of the audience, use "length."

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I ain't gonna read the hole ting but it is a lot easier to say 25,50,75,100, etc......yes I know ken , see you in Roosevelt exactly at 10:02 at the post office.

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That lap = length is understood in the nice of the sport and not to the most of the population..................I do not understand why you insist the majority should join your def.......Though both are right.One community is just larger...........................The irony is you have to change the definition of "swimmer" in the first place for your definition of lap. to be used by "all" swimmers. The definition of swimmer to 95% of the population is one who swims.........Not one who swims competively in North America blah blah blah...................Godd luck on changing the world . Quite frankly yout insistance just makes you look an elitist.
.

I understand the Olympic quote but that does answer the unanswerable question unless you are at an Olympic meet. It is their language, whereas you need to use the language of your locality. Just because they are a respected organisation does not mean they control language. For example, in non English speaking countries it is not called a Lap despite what the Olympic Committee says.

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It seems even in your world of serious swimmers there is some controversy over what constitutes a "lap". When using cards it seems your length=lap definition is used. But, I was curious how the more modern world of electronics defines a lap. So, I googled electronic lap counters that stay on one end of the pool to find out if they count by ones or twos. Here is a review of one that provides some detail on how it works:

http://beginnertriathlete.com/...l.asp?articleid=1133

A quote from the review:

"As you swim, the unit will count, time, and compare your lap times (but the MEMORY retains only up to 50 laps – a “lap” being an out and back to the same side of the pool where the Lap Track is located)" (color added for emphasis)

So, it seems when swimmers are discussing "laps" they either mean a length or a circuit. That seems like a good reason to me to NOT use the term when trying to avoid confusion.

If you're doing hypoxic sets, none of this matters.

I think this thread demonstrates the true effect of hypoxic sets.

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If you are only capable of counting every "down and back" (because the counter is stuck at one end only) then of course you can't count more precisely than that. So in that sense it would be ridiculous for the unit to count each length, because it can't measure that, it could only interpolate it.


Yes and no. It's only confusing when you're talking to a group of people that have varied backgrounds in swimming, such as the unholy hodgepodge of people you get at a swim workout for triathletes. When training with my club swim team back home it was very unambiguous (swam literally millions of yards without a single question about this), but I'm still frustrated that I might need to change the way I use my words that have become deeply ingrained in my sport to accommodate new people who refuse to accept our language convention.


Suppose I walked into a bowling alley and told them that I recorded a strike whenever I knocked down all the pins in 2 consecutive frames instead of in just one single frame. If anyone casually bowling in the bowling alley were persuaded by that and were either confused or were so affected as to change their scoring method so as to record a strike every two frames, whose fault is that? Would that be confusing? Sure. Like in the sport of swimming, there is an accepted convention (at least here in America), and there are people coming into our swimming pool, casually swimming, and telling us that they record a lap every two lengths instead of one. Who is introducing the ambiguity? Certainly you would have to say it is the new people that are bucking the established counting method.


In the sport of competitive swimming, lap=length. This is reflected in the rules, as well as the vocabularies of the majority of real competitive swimmers.

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That just defines their meaning for use with the product. The fact that they had to explain speaks volumes. The terminology remains open. There is no correct answer. I spell 'colour' the US spells 'color'. Not withstanding the bastardisation of the English language neither are actually incorrect. There are always variations on words I don't understand why both lap and length being acceptable is such a difficult concept to grasp.

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It's "you're," not "your."

By all means, please continue to detract from the discussion.

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I have to give you props for being one of the most rationally-thinking people on here.

I applaud your work in seeking clarification in the lap vs. length debate.

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New goal for the day -- I will use the term 'asshat' in one of my meetings at work today. I better do a lap, uh - length around the floor to figure out how & when

cyfac06 wrote:

New goal for the day -- I will use the term 'asshat' in one of my meetings at work today. I better do a lap, uh - length around the floor to figure out how & when

Asshat is a magnificent term, and has been one of my favorites for quite some time. Sadly, I have plenty of opportunities to use it.


;-)

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I'm thinking it might replace "jackwipe" (jackass + asswipe)

as a swimmer lengths mean something... I have never heard a swimmer or a swim coach use the word LAP. Don't try and confuse the world.. a lap is two lengths.

Thanks. I get the feeling you are a bit mental? :)

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My wife is the worst when it comes to the English language. In fact I have set up a blog dedicated to her verbal errors (claireisms.tumblr.com) so, don't take this as abuse, I know someone else pointed out a grammatical error.

I love the fact that you have invented the Pies of Resistance. Do they have particularly formidable crusts?

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Is it short for "as I shat"? It couldn't be a hat on your ass. Who wears a hat on their ass?

I considered adding "asshat" to my signature, after being called out as such, but ZackC is not even close to worthy.

I'm thinking this entire thread is an elaborate troll. Does someone really care that much about proper "swimming jargon"?

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Your catching on...

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It's not a hat on your ass, it's an ass for a hat. You see, it's like you've got your head up your ass so your ass looks like a hat. On second thought, if your head was up your ass, your ass would look like a head. Asshead doesn't sound as cool. Dickhead, that works. Dickhat, not sure. Assdick is silly.

Some people are so homophobic.

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+1

I started swimming competitively around the time I learned to ride a bike and continued until I could grow lambchops.

But if someone else calls me an asshat wouldn't that imply it is their head in my ass? Sort of like he is kissing my ass? I suppose I can take it as a compliment, of sorts.

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As noted by Goosedog, it implies wearing an ass for a hat...i.e. your head is up your ass.

Personally, I like this depiction, although not entirely accurate. ;-)

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back to the thread ..

.. is that a lap dog or a length dog?

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Ask the cat!!

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a lap in everything else is one circuit ---> you are correct, one circuit is from one end of the pool to the other end! :)

Correct terminology is: A lap is down and back, a length is from one end to the other.

Those that grew up swimming. Back in the days when the starter actually spoke words (they don't anymore), before a distance race they would say something like this..."a gun will be fired when the lead swimmer has 2 lengths plus 5 yds/mtrs remaining".

That meant either had 55 yds/mtrs left, or 105 mtrs left in the race depending on the course.

Whoa now. I didn't say anything about homosexuals, not that there's anything wrong with that. I submit that people across the sexual orientation spectrum can enjoy assdick, if done properly.

...and triathletes do "bricks", which everyone knows means consecutively performing at least 2 of the 3 disciplines represented by triathlon races, in the order that they occur in a "traditional" triathlon, during a single training event, though it could refer to doing all 3 disciplines in order, unless done in an actual race, then its called a triathlon or a duathlon. If they aren't done in race order they may or may-not be referred to as a brick, for example, a bike-run is a brick, but a run-bike may be referred to as a run-bike, or a brick. Some combinations might not be labelled a brick, such as run-swim, even though this would be the correct order in a circular triathlon using the right-hand rule. However, if you did a run-swim-run, it would probably be called a brick, even though it is no longer in triathlon order. If you call this a brick, I might label you an asshat, but not an assdick since words combined from two body parts might be, but not always are, construed as having a sexual conetation.

English - its what we argue about at dinner.

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Yes, but only here in the US. You know, where it is perfectly acceptable to say, "Don't swim too many laps, you might drowned"

Mission accomplished!

Luckily there was a call about a recent internal corporate audit today (without the auditors present) - no shortage of opportunities to work it in..

"Brick" is the mashing together of the words "bike" and "run". Bike+Run=Brik. The C was added later. If you run first, then bike it's a "ruke" or "rike". If you swim, then bike it's a "swike". Bike then swim = "bim". Swim then bike then run is, as we all know, a "triathlon". Run then swim is a "rim". These are never to be done because of the sexual connotation.

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That's bad news, even if done properly.

Outstanding. I hope you gained the well-earned respect of your peers when you used the term!!

;-)

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Re: Lap vs. Length........DING [Power13] - NEW [In reply to] Quote | Reply

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back to the thread ..

.. is that a lap dog or a length dog?

I think this is a good point for some more seminal jargon. : )

Sadly, I think it may be a 'one & done' situation... hopefully not an outright CLM

Uh-oh......nothing worse than a joke that turns into a CLM.

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I had a moment of unnerving clarity last night whilst brushing my teeth.

One length is a Lap. Both in accepted swimming terms and, more importantly, grammatically.

As discussed the word Lap comes from the Old English 'Lappen' meaning a piece of cloth that returns on itself (a LAPel for example, or the front of a skirt or robe as it wraps round on top of itself ... which is why your physical lap is called a lap).

The swim term is somewhat confused by the track term. A track lap is completed when you get back to the start. So it it effectively a circuit. But that is not what lap means grammatically.

Grammatically a lap, based on Lappen, is when you double back on yourself or start to retrace / repeat your route. At a track this happens to be a full curcuit but lap denotes the point at which you would start to overLAP your route. At a swimming pool you would start to overLAP your travel at one end of the pool.

So, a lap is not a full circuit, although it can be. It is the point at which you overlap yourself. And in a pool this would indicate a single length because you start to overlap yourself when you start to return on the second length.

The fact that some people call a return to start, two lengths, is likely grammatically (and indeed historically in swim terminology) incorrect. Although if something has been incorrect for long enough it starts to become colloquially correct as the meaning is effectively changing.

There, I feel much better now.

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Ah. This is the smartest insight I've read so far.

As far as being mental or not, my philosophy class has been driving me nuts lately--it makes me overthink things. I'm a victim, really, of my personal propensity to ponder. I like studying words too.

Believe it or not I'm actually a senior in aerospace engineering, not a liberal arts major.

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But what if I am circle swimming and don't overlap my route? Swim up the left side, flip turn off the middle of the wall and return on the right side. Kinda like a really skinny track.

The first person that ever told me the meaning was an olympic gold medalist and she said a lap is their and back. Not saying its correct, but their are some exceptions to your rule.

Styrrell

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If I swim halfway down the pool, stop, and turn to swim back, then by your definition, I have completed a lap.

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By your own definition, a lap would be once you have completed a length there and a length back and then begin to "overlap yourself." Turning and beginning to come back the same way you went is not a lap because you are not retracing your path, you are still making a new path.

For instance, let's say you are running a triathlon run that is a two lap out and back. Are you going to run out and call it one lap then run back and say you have completed two laps? No, you are going to run out, turn around, run back along the same path (in reverse direction) and then say you have completed ONE lap. After that, you will begin to "overlap yourself" by starting the second "out" portion of the two loop out and back.

Swimming is like a short out and back. You don't call it a lap until you have finished the back portion and begin to "overlap yourself." You do not begin to "overlap yourself" by swimming the same portion in the opposite direction, that is not overlap.

Thanks for clarifying :)

Grammatically you would have 'lapped' yourself ..... or 'overlapped' yourself.

In swim terminology you would have not. It is called a lap because that is where you are supposed to lap yourself, not where you actually lap yourself. It is called a lap before you even get in the pool.

I still call it a length. Why? Because I am trying to communicate and 'length' does not cause confusion.

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You are referring to the terms it has become. I was talking about the original term. A Lappen is effectively where you start to overlap, or originally in Old English, where the material starts to sit on top of itself. When you turn in a pool you are effectively starting to sit on your original path. When you lap on a track you effectively start to sit on your original path .... by sitting on your original path you are overLAPping.

In your example an out and back on a run course should, grammatically I believe, be called a lap at the point you double back although tradition has taken over from the grammatical and lap is now the seemingly accepted term for having returned to the start point.

I am not arguing either way. In fact I call, or have called, a 2 length swim a lap. I am just saying where the word came from which should have some bearing on why a lap is called a lap. Whenever you take one term and use it for something else then there is always some ambiguity, the fact that a swim lane is point to point and a track is a circuit will inevitably create an issue.

The fact remains that the word lap comes from Lappen, and returning to the start point was not necessary in this original meaning.

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What if I circle swim?

Sorry :)

jaretj

If you are doing something unique then call it what you want.

A 'Lappen' never completely retraced the exact route, in fact it could not because it was a physical thing and it would get in the way of itself. Kind of like a really skinny track.

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If we're gonna nitpick, I disagree with your example... In a Tri/run, you're not exactly doubling back the same as you are in a lane of a pool, since you're typically using opposite sides of a roadway to avoid the opposing stream of runners. It's effectively still a loop or circuit just like a track, only a long, skinny one.

I guess you could similarly split hairs if you're circle swimming with others sharing a lane, but as a convention I still see it being defined as in a race situation, with one swimmer per lane, in which case the fabric/lapel analogy is perfect; the fold/turn signifies the 'lap' point.

It actually makes far more sense to me that you're in engineering, as more of the engineers I know are compulsive hair-splitters and will debate precise definitions to the point of death, whereas the philosphers/liberal artists are far more likely to simply agree that everything is relative to the observer's perception (and then just move on to their next bong hit...)

A Lappen is the entire piece of fabric that is laid over the fabric below it. It doesn't really make sense to use this word to define where a lap BEGINS, as the word is not describing a beginning and end point but rather an entire length of fabric that has been laid back over an entire other piece of fabric. (So is a lap the back part of an out and back and the out part is just nothing?)

We are not constructing garments, we are exercising. It is educational to see where the word lap originates from, but it is not really contextual to the debate when you think about the two different kinds of things. Otherwise a lap on a track would make zero sense because you are never folding back over your self, you are looping back around.

Furthermore, when exercising, a lap is defined as a complete circuit where you end at the point that you began. Sure, lots of people use the word lap at the pool in different ways, and that's fine, but to call one length of a pool a lap makes a lap in swimming completely different than any other lap in any other sport.

I have used both in the past. But the pool I currently swim at has a sign that says "35.2 laps = 1 mile." It is a 25 yard pool.