It seems that you are not actually as inflamatory as your posts might suggest - so that is good to know. That said, I do take issue with the comment that I was spewing intense ignorance. I believe I am pretty aware of the sunk costs behind running a race, the thin profit margins, and the concept of force majeure.

We simply differ on the effect of the no refund clause. You believe it is legally binding, I question whether it is. That is really the only area of our disagreement. And my position is not rooted in intense ignorance - rather it is based on the enforcability of such clauses in previous case law.

We will both agree though, that practically, there may be no money left to refund, but that is a seperate issue from whether an RD might be obligated to do so. I really only raised my position because it is frustrating to me to hear people using the no money justification as a reasonable justifcation for (IMHO) screwing racers. There may be other valid reasons to not offer a refund, but simply saying - too bad, no money left, isn't one of them.

Perhaps I am looking at it from a matter of degrees.

If I paid $20 for a 5k that got cancelled due to a storm, I would likely just eat the money.

If I paid $200 for an Oly we are starting to talk about "real money". I might bitch and moan about losing the $200, but the likely result is I wouldnt sign up for that race again if the RD wasnt at least somewhat accomodating. I feel like I work hard for the money I earn and I get upset when I know it was flushed down the toilet (from my perspective. I know the money was spent getting the race together). I went to a casino once. I was quite upset when I watched a $20 I put on the table get pushed into a little hole in a box becuase the die I rolled had the wrong number on it. I dont like the idea of money leaving my pocket for no benefit to me.

Maybe I am projecting a bit because I paid $750 for IMLT (plus airfare, plus TBT, plus various expenses, oh and my wife is racing too, so double every cost) and I am afriad it will face a similar fate. If that gets cancelled due to the fires will the WTC allow me to race a different 140.6 at no extra charge? I hope so since the WTC is a much larger company than most tri RDs.

Can any RD comment on how challenge is managing to do this?

It would seem to me that the only real way to do that without incurring VERY sizeable loss is to avoid entering into financial arrangements and expending money on material goods until after that date. So perhaps they enter into contracts with clauses that state we will not pay you until this day and you must deliver within one week upon receipt of contract?

Otherwise it seems they risk operating at pretty substantial losses? Just curious. Great policy though if they can financially cover it.

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Not after July 25th. If a freak tornado came up the morning of the race, CP would cancel the race. No clue on what their refund policy would be then.

John

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This is a good point that shouldn't be overlooked in this whole exchange. If race companies change their no refund policy in these circumstances, they are only going to be able to do it with the aid of an insurance product. That insurance is going to cost more than the expected value of the refunds because that is the insurance companies' profit margin. So, the race directors will pass that insurance cost on, including the amount of the insurer's profit, and the price of entry fees will increase.

Anyone whining about this race policy on this thread should be prohibited from any anti-regulatory posts for 30 days. Let the free market work people. Don't sign up for races with this cancellation policy. Instead, sign up for races that are more expensive because they have insurance to address this situation.

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For event-wide cancellations, I'm sure an insurance policy could be obtained, but it would be pricey as the potential liability is high. And, as the likelihood slim, the better move is to share the small risk amongst all registrants. Now, maybe if I were holding an ocean-swim triathlon during hurricane season the equation would be different.
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Understood. I'm a marathoner by trade so my expenses have never been greater than $150 (i believe that's how much Boston was), usually more around $80 though and 2-3 nights hotel. So the tri costs are unreal and I'd be devastated if I financially had to bite the bullet plus have lost what I trained for (in the marathoner, there's a race every week, not so much in the Iron distance tri).

I'd hope WTC would provide in case of that arrising. I have a close friend and IMLT will be his first, I know he'd be devastated too and would probably enjoy some sort of consideration on the part of WTC.

Guardian, my use of "intense ignorance" is more of the same vitriol out of my mouth, don't take it personal. I write contracts for a living, and albeit I'm no lawyer, I really fail to see how the clause isn't legal. Perhaps a lawyer can chime in here and enlighten us both though. I'd truly love to know.

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Fartleker....Can you provide some insight into what the promoter may have saved by not putting on the event? Does the company doing the timing traditionally get paid if the event is cancelled. Are the off-duty police that direct traffic paid? How does it work? What about the food venders that are hired?

There is nothing to cover.

If you enter today and cancel tomorrow, they get $100. If you enter today and cancel less than 30 days out, you eat the fee. If they cancel the race the day of, who knows? Not specified.

John

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What is fair is for them to refund 100% of the non-incurred costs and offer a discount to sign up next year. That could be more or less than 25-35%.

And what is smart is to not be a dick about all of it and be as transparent as possible.

My guess is that they would highly likely save on having to "donate" to the organizations that "volunteered" on race day. I highly doubt they were paid up front, but likely only get paid after the expenses were all distributed.

For instance, our junior team was "paid" to volunteer a local color run, and only recieved money after fact.

Granted I doubt they are making huge amount of money on that,but probaly $1k or less in savings from that.

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What do you mean there is nothing to cover? There are tons of expenses and some of them very sizeable. If you register today, they order medals tonight, and you cancel tomorrow, they've incurred huge cost.

That's why i'm curious as to how they're holding out up to one month out. I'd argue that most races have expended vast amount of funds up to one month out and by race day they've probably expended near 99%.

Was i misunderstanding you though?

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My suspicion is yes. I believe after Miami 70.3 was a complete disaster that they offered free entry to a number of races that typically do not sell out.

So...they are entitled to nothing for the time they spent organizing and setting up the event? Or would you count that as an incurred cost?

John

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As an aside to the refund debate, I was out on the IMLT course on Saturday climbing Dollar Hill when a truck pulled over in front of me, and a guy got out and asked me whether I thought it was unhealthy to be out in these conditions. Turns out it was the RD, who was weighing whether or not to cancel the race and had to make the call soon. Nice guy - I'm sure it wasn't an easy decision.

I had swum and ridden one loop of the course on Friday, and the smoke was pretty noticeable. It was only slightly better on Saturday. I personally didn't experience any respiratory problems (other than what you would expect at altitude), but then again I wasn't at race intensity.

Ironically, the wind came in overnight on Saturday and pushed out most of the bad air. This made the lake very choppy for my team's Sunday morning swim, but the long run we did afterwards went off with very good air quality. By afternoon, though, the bad air was back.

Anyway, hindsight is 20-20. Given the air quality on Saturday, they opted for being safe rather than sorry.

Do not confuse individual refunds with wholesale refunds to all for event-wide cancelation. Very different beasts.

Bingo! If you engage in a business activity without insurance then you should pay the consequence. Ultimately companies putting together races are businesses that have risks. Why should all the risk be pushed out to the customer? This is simply not good business practice. Your customers dont give a crap as to why the race couldn't take place or if it wasn't the company's fault. It's not the participant's fault either that mother nature went crazy. As a business your responsibility is to refund for services not rendered (or provide appropriate consideration) and if you had any sense whatsoever as a business your insurance covered you. If you didn't have insurance then you have two choices as a business: 1. Be bastard and piss off any credibility you have as a business, as Lake Tahoe Triathlon has done, 2. Suck it up and invest in the long term success of your race by not pissing on your customer base.

In the end Lake Tahoe Triathlon pissed on all of you who missed out on this race. BTW, I raced the Expedition Man full Iron Distance this Saturday. This race is literally next door to the Lake Tahoe Triathlon. Expedition Man trated us like adults and went on with their race by having us sign a waiver that mase us acknowledge the fact that smoke adds a factor of danger to our health and that we take full responsibility for our actions. The field was very small, but the race was great. All of you Lake Tahoe participants should have taken Expedition Man's offer to come do our race for 50% off. My hats off to the Expedition Man organization for a quality event this weekend in less than ideal circumstances.

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Medals are about $2 per person at most. Trophies are more. The time it takes to process the entry itself is probably more cost than the medal. And two or three individuals that cancel for the $100 fee would not impact bulk costs such as that. The only way that it would really impact them is if they had 40% of the field cancel with not enough time to sell the new open entries.

John

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Says who? You are certain this race is making a 25% profit margin? I would not be so certain at all.

+1

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Big talk. Let's see you put on a race that takes in $200,000 in registration, spends $175,000 in expenses, and then is forced to cancel, and see what you do. The options are buy insurance which make the expense become $225,000 and corespondingly increase the registrations to $250,000, or keep registration fees as low as possible and spread the low risk of event cancelation amongst the participants. If you think races like these, ie the ones that are not put on by multi-million dollar organizations. are willing to expose themselves to a potential $175,000 loss for a likely measly $25,000 gain, you are crazy. But, again, tell those of us who actually do it how it is. It's a crappy business as it is. Exposing yourself to a massive loss in the case of event cancelation is a sure way to get a lot of promoters out of the business.

Do we know what the insurance actually costs, or are we throwing around random numbers? What does insurance against event cancellation cost?

Why does the customer have to bear the risk of cancellation? Why even bother with USAT insurance and force the customer to bear the risk of injury or death? We could reduce the race fees even more.

Your speculation is as good as mine. I'm guessing police and barricades were already paid. Would they be refunded? I don't know. Different jurisdictions would have different policies and contracts.

Shirts and swag were definitely paid for (or donated). I'm guessing the beneficiary (if any) would lose out. Insurance was paid and a portion might be refunded. USATF will refund a portion but I don't know if USAT will.

Timing probably wouldn't be paid, unless bib numbers were already created. If that was the case, it might just be a portion that was paid. It's really impossible to say. Plus, triathlons have much, much bigger budgets and expenses than simple running races.

Did the race have any cash sponsors? Think the race director would give them their money back?

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speedySTATES

Again, it's the risk you take by going into business!!!! Cry me a river. It's the way the world works sir. You are totally within your rights to pass all the risks and loss to your participants but don't expect enthusiasm for your race next year, if there is a next year, when you treat your participants the way the Lake Tahoe Triathlon has treated theirs. If the risk is too much to handle, then you are absolutely right and you should not be in the business of putting races together. Your point is that it is a low-margin risky business. Agreed. So what? Changes nothing...

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The insurance will vary greatly dependent on the risk of an act of God. For a race on the ocean in hurricane season, for a carrier to assume full refund risk would be 25% or more of the potential liability. For a race like Tahoe where there is little risk, probably less than 10%.

The customer does not have to bear the risk. They can choose to race events for which they do not bear the risk. Same thing with USAT and insurance. The customer can choose to race events that are not USAT sanctioned and have different coverage for participant liability than what USAT offers through ESIX.

That's fine if that's what y'all want, but I guarantee you if they increase registration the thread would be entitled, "Lake Tahoe increases prices, offers no new services" and there would be pages of diatribe.

Seemingly a lose lose proposition. Increase the price too much, you price out participants or make participants unhappy who thus demand more for their money even thought what they got was insurance. Keep the price low and accept the risk, angry people when cancelled.

Tough call and a lose-lose proposition it seems.

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