You sign your rights away when registering for it.

This was in the email: "Our company policy in regard to refunding entry fees is straight forward. It is one that every registrant agrees to during the online registration process, and is an industry standard. The policy is that there are no refunds."

Write them a note explaining that it is fraud to not put on the event and that your next letter is to the attorney general.

Because of the Rim Fire, Big Blue Adventures (the company that puts on the Lake Tahoe Triathlon) cancelled the event for 2013...okay, fine. Who wants to race in heavy smoke.

Just received an email stating that they're not rescheduling the event and no refunds. This typical? Plus, a paltry 25% off on a future race was the only thing offered.

I understand it's hard work putting on a race, but this kind of sucks when you paid $225 for registration.

If/when that happens to me ill never sign up for a race with that company again. I know I sign my life away when registering, but it doesn't make it right

Totally understand that 'some' of the money received from registered athletes is spent before the race. I guarantee most of it isn't, though.

I can also live without a refund. What I wasn't expecting was an insulting offer for 25% off a race for next year. At least give those who spent money on gas, an expensive hotel, and registration a FULL credit for another race next year.

What refund do you want?

I'm always astounded by how little participants know about the actual processes of the races they participate in. Your money is most likely gone, used, spent, voila.

People have to get paid, materials were bought, permits were paid for, etc. It's not like, "oh shit, we're sorry, let us unspend all this money so you can have your money back".

It simply does NOT work like that. Anytime a runner, triathlete, swimmer, or cyclists ask for a refund what it really amounts to saying is, "Hi, i'm very ignorant of the process of how races are put on, can you make a special exception for me and pay me back with money that no longest exist".

Shit happens, races get cancelled, suck it up.

This thread should have been titled "Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled". The "no refunds" part amounts to a "no shit, sherlock".

/rant

Let us suppose I buy a couch and I pay upfront. The store sends my order to its in-house factory. They spend money and time making my couch. The night before it is to be delivered to me, the couch burns down. The store does not come to me and say - sorry, no couch, and no refund - regardless of how much money they have already spent behind the scenes. I either get a couch, or I get a refund.

Again, why not give registered athletes a credit to race in another event? Not asking for a cash refund. Not asking for much...and that wasn't offered.

I didn't know comparing apples to oreos made for good analogies. I'm going running, when i get back I'll explain why you're ignorant of how races work.

What refund do you want?

I'm always astounded by how little participants know about the actual processes of the races they participate in. Your money is most likely gone, used, spent, voila.

People have to get paid, materials were bought, permits were paid for, etc. It's not like, "oh shit, we're sorry, let us unspend all this money so you can have your money back".

It simply does NOT work like that. Anytime a runner, triathlete, swimmer, or cyclists ask for a refund what it really amounts to saying is, "Hi, i'm very ignorant of the process of how races are put on, can you make a special exception for me and pay me back with money that no longest exist".

Shit happens, races get cancelled, suck it up.

This thread should have been titled "Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled". The "no refunds" part amounts to a "no shit, sherlock".

/rant

If the whole factory burns down, with all their business for a year gone up in smoke and without insurance to cover such an occurence, they would claim bankruptcy. You would be out a couch.

Your example as quoted above is simply not an equal comparison.

For those defending the decision to cancel with no offer to give a race credit, please respond to my previous post...

Again, why not give registered athletes a credit to race in another event? Not asking for a cash refund. Not asking for much...and that wasn't offered.

If the whole factory burns down, with all their business for a year gone up in smoke and without insurance to cover such an occurence, they would claim bankruptcy. You would be out a couch.

Your example as quoted above is simply not an equal comparison.

Do you have this confirmed? Very much a 'straw man' debate tactic.

I stand by my statement that Big Blue Adventures should give those who were affected by the cancellation a credit to race in a future event.

They did give you a race credit...25% off is a credit.

You just don't like the amount of the credit. Why it cannot be 100% has already been explained.

The only way it would be somewhat feasible to offer 100% credit is if they have additional races scheduled this year with open capacity. In that case they could offer a free entry into an exisiting race or 25% off for a race next year.

It's not fraud if they intended to put on the event and had to cancel for safety reasons. It's fraud if they never intended to put on the event. Why is everyone's first reaction to threaten lawsuits?

John

Let us suppose I buy a couch and I pay upfront. The store sends my order to its in-house factory. They spend money and time making my couch. The night before it is to be delivered to me, the couch burns down. The store does not come to me and say - sorry, no couch, and no refund - regardless of how much money they have already spent behind the scenes. I either get a couch, or I get a refund.

'Just a credit for a future race' - I'm OK with you asking for that, as long as when that race comes around, you're willing to:

- not have any generators, sound systems, tents, tables at the venue
- no tables at the aid stations
- willing to take a shirt from this year's canceled event
- no dumpsters. the company was paid this year for delivering them; too bad they weren't filled
- year-old water that may be a little stale; don't know what condition the year-old Gatorade, GU's, or anything else that was going to be available on course (plus chip in some money for the cost of storing that stuff for a year)
- you'll have to pay at the gate for the new race's current permit fees, since the canceled event's fees are already sunk, and there's no new registration income to replace it
- were the bike racks rented? if so, just lay your bike down on a patch of grass or dirt
- was there rented barricade fencing around transition, or along the entrances / exits? hope that nobody wanders into your path while you're racing

I'm sure I haven't hit everything, but if everyone got a free race next year, you would probably find that the race director isn't around to put the race on.

It hasn't been explained and you're welcome to elaborate more on why a full credit can't be issued.

Why is everyone's first reaction to threaten lawsuits?

John

As a race director, I think it is a bunch of crap that they aren't offering a free entry to a future race.

There have been 2 local races canceled in the past few ones. One was a triathlon in it's early stages. We had some bad fires in early summer followed by monsoons a month later. This brought a lot of sludge and crap into the water, and the race was shut down by the forest service. All those that paid automatically got rolled over into next year. I believe refunds were given to those who couldn't attend.

The second was just a few months ago and was strictly a running race. Bad monsoons and thunderstorms rolled in and the race directors shut it down. Participants had already received shirts, chips, and everything. Cones were out. But they rolled everyone into the next race that they direct. Those that couldn't participate were asked to contact the race director to receive refunds.

Sure, they could have both said, "Sorry. You waive your rights away when the event is canceled." But these two companies did the right thing for participants and themselves. I'm guessing the Lake Tahoe Tri will have a small fraction of the participants next year, simply because of this move. And rightfully so.

This does not make any sense. Look at the NYC marathon last year. It's a race with massive costs and infrastructure. They did not officially cancel until JUST before the race so all the money really was spent. All competitors got to choose whether they got refunded in full, or got guaranteed qualification and free entry to the next event. It may have even been more generous than that, I cannot remember exactly, but they handled it right. And NYRR doesn't have a ton of cash in the bank to just pay for all of that out of their own pocket. If a race does not have insurance to cover race cancellation due to force majure, then the race director is being irresponsible.

This does not make any sense. Look at the NYC marathon last year. It's a race with massive costs and infrastructure. They did not officially cancel until JUST before the race so all the money really was spent. All competitors got to choose whether they got refunded in full, or got guaranteed qualification and free entry to the next event. It may have even been more generous than that, I cannot remember exactly, but they handled it right. And NYRR doesn't have a ton of cash in the bank to just pay for all of that out of their own pocket. If a race does not have insurance to cover race cancellation due to force majure, then the race director is being irresponsible.

You pay your entry in advance so they can pay in advance for things like port a johns, permits, admin costs of processing entries etc. They offered a 25% credit.


I swear some of you yahoo's should man up and put on an event instead of bitching and whining. Then I bet you change your arm chair quarterbacking rather quickly.

It hasn't been explained and you're welcome to elaborate more on why a full credit can't be issued.

Really dude, fraud bc Mother Nature burned your parade down?

Like I've said before, I really wonder where you get some of the crap you write.

For this to be analogous you'd have to include that prior to paying for the couch, you willingly agreed to sign a waiver acknowledging upfront that should the couch not be delivered for any reason (including burning down) that you fully understand no refund will be provided. Would you still order and pay for the couch?

Thank you for taking the time to write this up, but I'm failing to see how this story remotely compares to this cancelled triathlon.

What refund do you want?

I'm always astounded by how little participants know about the actual processes of the races they participate in. Your money is most likely gone, used, spent, voila.

For the same reason they cannot offer a registration fee of $0. It costs money to put on a race. For this year that money has been spent (for the sake of argument). You are then proposing that for next year he put on a race with no revenues to pay for it.

Yes, 25% seems a bit chintzy. 50% is probably more reasonable, but will dramatically impact his margins the next year. He didn't cause the fire, why should he absorb all the loss? Triathlon management is a thin margin business. You should give it a shot.

Yes I agree. I was taking issue with the argument that simply because the money has been spent there should be no refunds. As I said in an earlier post however, if the couch store buried this waiver in the fine print on all of their standard form invoices - then I am not sure it would necessarily be binding.

As a general comment, It seems that people put on races, in part, to make money. Making money involves some risk to get some reward. In this case, the "no refund" camp is basically saying athletes should all bear the risk of force majeur events, rather than the RD. However, none of the racers ask for a cut of the profits if the race goes ahead successfully - so why are we so worried about mitigating the RDs' risk when things go bad?

I believe this sort of situation, from a legal point of view, really revolves around the effect of the waiver. All the other stuff are red herrings.

Fartleker....I have noticed that you often take positions that are pro-athlete and that you understand business. I commend you for that.

It is the business, not the athlete, that takes the risk. If the venture succeeds, the business makes money; if it fails they loose money.

why should he absorb all the loss?
The exact same reason that he retains all of the profits. Races are normally not a joint venture between athletes and promoters. The promoter keeps 100% of the profit and should absorb 100% of the loss.

why should he absorb all the loss?
The exact same reason that he retains all of the profits. Races are normally not a joint venture between athletes and promoters. The promoter keeps 100% of the profit and should absorb 100% of the loss.

You are comparing legal constructs against common sense. The two are completely different.

The no refund policy of races is not buried in the fine print. It is almost an almost universally adopted industry standard.

You also seem to have decided that a 25% discount would not hurt the RD in the pocket book. I am not so sure that is correct.

Ouch, such hostility. I just see your statements as 'straw men' with no real evidence behind them.

Business is business, and if you're going to say 'Sorry dude, race cancelled, no full credit for you...just pay for another race and we'll give you $20 off'...you're going to lose business.

There won't be any races left if promoters are exposed like that. Margins are thin. If the potential profit is single digit % of registration fees and potential loss is 100% of registration fees, you will have no one putting on races. As it is, feel free to pick and choose your races amongst those that offer full refunds. Pickings will be slim.

Because this is America. It's what people do now. SUE SUE SUE!!!

"something something we are not responsible for acts of God."

Sucks, but this is what those provisions are in there for. It seems like it would only be fair for the RD to cover his non-recurring non-refundable costs of putting on the race and then refund whatever is left. That may be what they're doing. Or the WTC could be making a boatload of money. I don't know.

Yup, but just maybe the lost business has a lower financial impact than refunding everybody their fee.

Nah, that couldn't be.....

I don't expect any kind of a refund if I choose not to race, be it from injury, burn out, or my chinchilla being eaten by my girlfriend's cat. A canceled event is something different, to me.

There was actually another tri that was canceled here in May. It was held on a military base. And after Boston, the base freaked out and wanted full social security numbers, driver's license numbers, addresses, and more for 500 participants and and of the spectators. The race organizers canceled in on Tuesday or Wednesday (the event was Sunday) and gave full refunds, turned it into a donation, or gift cards to a local sporting good store.

That, to me, is a better business move.

What refund do you want?

I'm always astounded by how little participants know about the actual processes of the races they participate in. Your money is most likely gone, used, spent, voila.

People have to get paid, materials were bought, permits were paid for, etc. It's not like, "oh shit, we're sorry, let us unspend all this money so you can have your money back".

It simply does NOT work like that. Anytime a runner, triathlete, swimmer, or cyclists ask for a refund what it really amounts to saying is, "Hi, i'm very ignorant of the process of how races are put on, can you make a special exception for me and pay me back with money that no longest exist".

Shit happens, races get cancelled, suck it up.

This thread should have been titled "Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled". The "no refunds" part amounts to a "no shit, sherlock".

/rant

This is the practical point that people seem to be conflating with the legal question.

That said, just for my own interest, is there any type of insurance that you could obtain to cover a force majeure situation for which you would offer refunds?

From consumer protection laws standpoint, this is no different than paying for that couch and not getting it. Money was spent on services not rendered. It doesn't matter that money was already spent by the RD and gone. It doesn't matter. Race still took money, and gave nothing in return.

I have zero issue with the promoter keeping a portion of the registration fees and fully understand that I entered under my own free will. What I don't like is that the promoter will actually make a larger profit by not incurring the race-day expenses. They have padded their own wallet by cancelling the event and offer little back to the athletes. As fartlaker stated in another post, their decision is probably short sighted and they will loose in the long run.

Sure, let's see if you can understand this concept.

You and your best buddy are at the airport, waiting for the plane to take you to Kona when you realize that you have forgotten to pack your helmet. The plane is leaving in 1 hour, but you remember that there is a bike shop, just 20 minutes away. Since you are worried you can't find the helmet you want in Kona, you tell your buddy you plan to quickly get to the bike shop, buy a new helmet and make it back in time for the flight. Just as you walk off he presses $20 in your hand and asks you to pick him up a multi tool, since he isn't sure if he packed his.

You do your shopping, buy a new, very aero, helmet and pick up the multi tool for your buddy. Standing in line waiting to go through security you gloat about how well this is working out. As you hear the final boarding call for your flight, you are about to pick your bag off the x-ray belt. Just then, the friendly TSA agent tells you that multi-tool isn't going to be allowed any further. Now scrambling to make your flight and believing your friend to be reasonable, you decide to leave the multi tool behind and make a dash for the gate.

When you settle in beside your buddy on the plane, you find out maybe he isn't that reasonable after all. You thought he would understand the force majeur, but clearly he isn't understanding at all. Or maybe he is understanding, but just not caring...

He wants a multi-tool or $20 and if he doesn't get either real soon, he is going to tell the friendly flight attendant you keep muttering about a bomb.

You have $5 in your pocket, the choice is yours......

Being a Harvard of the South grad (WCU), I have too much business sense to get into a venture with the rick/reward that race promoters deal with.

Actually, on second thought, go ahead and send me the $1000 and I will get started putting one together. I will even give your athletes a 10% discount on entry fees. PM sent with my mailing address.....and we do accept PayPal ;)

You're really not doing yourself any favors here.

Personally, I'm not asking for my full fee of $225 to be given back to me. Give me a chance to race in one of your next events with a full credit. Telling me to PAY for another event with $20 off...bad, bad, bad.

That is all true.

But,

From consumer protection laws standpoint, this is no different than paying for that couch and not getting it. Money was spent on services not rendered. It doesn't matter that money was already spent by the RD and gone. It doesn't matter. Race still took money, and gave nothing in return. Dip into that piggybank or get a loan and return what they took. Or declare bankruptcy and then legally they are no longer obligated to issue refunds.

An athlete left out to dry should not give a crap that the money was spent on stuff the athlete will never see or use. Every business who may owe me money and can't pay up is in that precise same situation, and yet they are obligated to refund unless they declare bankruptcy. But a race taking money, not putting on a show, and then continuing on as if nothing happened is somehow acceptable? Hell no. Like someone said, any decent lawyer could get you your money back. The no refunds policy you've agreed on when you signed up is worthless if it isn't legal.

Edit: mind you, I don't advocate suing to get your money back. It will only hurt the sport. May be cheaper in the long term to just suck it up and write off that money, which is exactly what we all do and exactly why this trend of no-refunds still exists. We let it exist rather than challenge it, for the good of the sport.

You can't compare New York Road Runners with most organizers, other than WTC and a few other large/corporate even coordinators. NYRR is a HUGE operation, that pretty much puts up sold-out races every weekend (at a high cost for a low cost venue like Central Park usually). They pay their president $$$$$$ and had the means to cover the cost (with their insurance company).

The discount question really comes down to the marginal cost of adding an extra person to an existing race. Those generators and other expenses are already covered for the most part. I personally think a 25% discount is a little "cheap". I wouldn't enter a race put on by that promoter; the market will probably speak and they will go out of business.

You keep restating this $20 number, when in reality it was around $56. The RD is giving you 25% off, not 9% off.

-Eric

1) For those who think triathlon/racing should be the same as commodity businesses such as purchasing a couch. Please tell me what magical little economic universe you live in where things work like that?

2) You have agreed to forfeit your money. There was...
a) an Offer
b) Consideration
c) Acceptance

3) That means we have a legally binding contract that included a clause concerning no refunds.

4) Someone would say this is fraud but for fraud you need,
a) A false statement of material fact
b) knowledge on the part of the defendent the statement is untrue
c) intent to deceive the victim
d) justifiable reliance on the statement by the victim
e) injury to the victim

5) Wow, seems like we only have two elements, thus there is no fraud, no breach of contract, and you are entitled to NO money back.

6) For people like the guardian who can't wrap their brain around why this business model is different is because this business provides a single service, once a year, and mass refunds would immediately bankrupt said company as opposed to a couch company which has factored in one bad couch every 1000. 1 bad race in one race with refunds = bye bye race.

7) For the idiots who argued about NYRR paying back the athletes and the other idiot who said, "yea, NYRR doesn't have that much money"...Are you f'n kidding me? NYRR is essentially the largest running club in the U.S. if not the world. If ANY one entity has the payroll, sponsors, and insurance to back a mass refund, it's the f'n NYRR. Lake Tahoe triathlon is like a drop in an ocean compared to NYRR. Be serious with these awful comparisons.

8) People who demand refunds, future credits, etc are a stain on this sport. RDs bust their ass to give the best possible experience and their's a damn fire blazing through the west and y'all cry that you want your money back. Well WAH, you don't get it. You signed a contract that is legally binding and legally sound that told you so. If you don't like it, leave the sport. But stop complaining because you sound ignorant and whiny.

1) For those who think triathlon/racing should be the same as commodity businesses such as purchasing a couch. Please tell me what magical little economic universe you live in where things work like that?

2) You have agreed to forfeit your money. There was...
a) an Offer
b) Consideration
c) Acceptance

3) That means we have a legally binding contract that included a clause concerning no refunds.

4) Someone would say this is fraud but for fraud you need,
a) A false statement of material fact
b) knowledge on the part of the defendent the statement is untrue
c) intent to deceive the victim
d) justifiable reliance on the statement by the victim
e) injury to the victim

5) Wow, seems like we only have two elements, thus there is no fraud, no breach of contract, and you are entitled to NO money back.

6) For people like the guardian who can't wrap their brain around why this business model is different is because this business provides a single service, once a year, and mass refunds would immediately bankrupt said company as opposed to a couch company which has factored in one bad couch every 1000. 1 bad race in one race with refunds = bye bye race.

7) For the idiots who argued about NYRR paying back the athletes and the other idiot who said, "yea, NYRR doesn't have that much money"...Are you f'n kidding me? NYRR is essentially the largest running club in the U.S. if not the world. If ANY one entity has the payroll, sponsors, and insurance to back a mass refund, it's the f'n NYRR. Lake Tahoe triathlon is like a drop in an ocean compared to NYRR. Be serious with these awful comparisons.

8) People who demand refunds, future credits, etc are a stain on this sport. RDs bust their ass to give the best possible experience and their's a damn fire blazing through the west and y'all cry that you want your money back. Well WAH, you don't get it. You signed a contract that is legally binding and legally sound that told you so. If you don't like it, leave the sport. But stop complaining because you sound ignorant and whiny.

This does not make any sense. Look at the NYC marathon last year. It's a race with massive costs and infrastructure. They did not officially cancel until JUST before the race so all the money really was spent. All competitors got to choose whether they got refunded in full, or got guaranteed qualification and free entry to the next event. It may have even been more generous than that, I cannot remember exactly, but they handled it right. And NYRR doesn't have a ton of cash in the bank to just pay for all of that out of their own pocket. If a race does not have insurance to cover race cancellation due to force majeure, then the race director is being irresponsible.

1)

7) For the idiots who argued about NYRR paying back the athletes and the other idiot who said, "yea, NYRR doesn't have that much money"...Are you f'n kidding me? NYRR is essentially the largest running club in the U.S. if not the world. If ANY one entity has the payroll, sponsors, and insurance to back a mass refund, it's the f'n NYRR. Lake Tahoe triathlon is like a drop in an ocean compared to NYRR. Be serious with these awful comparisons.

Says the guy who I will bet both nuts on often registers for races, signed the legally binding contract with the no refund clause, and yet still acts like a bad ass on the ST.

It's an industry practice, the ENTIRE INDUSTRY does it. So may I ask what the hell you're doing on slowtwitch?

Do you hate, USAT, ITU, WTC, Joe Blo's triathlon series, etc. Because they all play by the same rule. Most running events and swimming events do to.

"get insurance that covers it", yea, then I will have to read the stupid ass thread you start because race fees went up $10.

You guys want your cake, want to eat it, and then rub it in the face of everyone else.

SHUT UP and man up or leave the sport. Stop bitching in little threads where you will ultimately turn around and just register for your next event.

Hypocrite.

It's an industry practice, the ENTIRE INDUSTRY does it.

FAIL. Go back and read fartleker (sp) post. There are some ethical promoters who put on good races.

Personally, I'm not asking for my full fee of $225 to be given back to me. Give me a chance to race in one of your next events with a full credit. Telling me to PAY for another event with $20 off...bad, bad, bad.

So they have to cancel a race but, as a bonus they walk with their profit margin? It's crap. At the very least a free entry to another race should be given with a small transfer fee at most.

Not a cool move on the company.

It's an industry practice, the ENTIRE INDUSTRY does it.

FAIL. Go back and read fartleker post. There are some ethical promoters who put on good races.

To just say 'Aw, dude, sorry, uh, it's cancelled, you're out $225...how about you pay for another one of our races?! I'll give you $20 off!' not cool.

Business is business, and if you're going to say 'Sorry dude, race cancelled, no full credit for you...just pay for another race and we'll give you $20 off'...you're going to lose business.

Personally, I'm not asking for my full fee of $225 to be given back to me. Give me a chance to race in one of your next events with a full credit. Telling me to PAY for another event with $20 off...bad, bad, bad.

Please, this is just deflection from the real issue.

Seems like you don't know what a strawman is nor do you know how to read. My betting was on that you register for races. Do you not? Have you never registered for one?

So you complain, yet you compete in the sport, so you're a hypocrite because you're embracing what you're complaining about. No strawman. Don't throw out logical fallacies if you don't even understand them.

I also called you a "bad ass" because you're trying to act tough while providing no good justification except for, "wah, I want my money".

So let's sum this up. You act all tough and complain about something you don't like yet you embrace it by participating, this makes you an internet bad ass and a real life hypocrite. You don't know what logical fallacies are. And you think the industry model is screwed up but you're doing nothing to change that model. Anymore awesomeness coming out of your fingers today?

Please do - while you are at it, please explain why races should be somehow different from other businesses.

Sorry, but the level of 'tard in this thread is unreal. As someone who wants to be a RD and a great one someday, I rage at the level of incompetence among participants, especially ones dedicated enough to loaf about in forums such as ST. If you're own ST, obviously you care about triathlon or some aspect of one fo the three sports of triathlon. So to see such a blazen level of ignorance and such a general distaste for people who bust their ass to provide great services infuriates me like no other.

Race directors don't sell a commodity.

Go for it, if you're so upset that a guy on the internet called you a name, you've a lot of growing up to do. I recognized incompetence and called it for what it was. Sorry if that offends you.

Thank you for this post.

I appreciate that race directors work hard to put on races. Without them, there would be no triathlons to participate in.

To just say 'Aw, dude, sorry, uh, it's cancelled, you're out $225...how about you pay for another one of our races?! I'll give you $20 off!' not cool.

I really wanted to like Big Blue Adventures...but they've lost my business :(

RDs sell a service. Not that much unlike buying an airplane ticket.

If your flight is cancelled by mother nature, the airline books you on the next available flight. They dont offer you a refund, but they also dont make you buy another ticket for that next flight.

I disagree that it's a bad business practice. If it was bad, the customers wouldn't return, yet they do. It's a sound business model that works and its the reason most RDs across multiple sports and organizations have adopted it.

As I stated, if people disagree with it, do something to change it, bitching into an echo chamber does nothing, is not constructive and is what edgy youth do who don't want to do what it takes to make real change.

And that's the airlines policy. Besides, I'm only in this thread to keep the fire going, this popcorn is tasty! ; )

It's not hard. Put on a race, give the customers what they want and be open ears to their suggestions.

My personal opinions of the idiots won't get in the way of being a RD. I know how to separate my internet forum life from my real life. If you can't understand that, perhaps you're the dumb fuck. Biting sarcasm fails when your sarcasm exposes your inability to realize that conversations on an internet forum perhaps don't always reveal who a person truly is.

I'm the same guy who would call you a dumb fuck and if you happened to bump into me at the bar tonight and were like "Justarunner, is that you, the asshole from slowtwitch" I'd probably be like, "yea, that was me, can I get you a beer?"

Strokes of the keyboard don't represent all that a person is. If you're ever in Dayton, Ohio, PM me, I'll buy you that beer and we'll talk about my ambitions for RD and perhaps what you as a customer would expect from an RD.

What's your angle here? Do you support the decision to only give 25% off, or what?

And that's the airlines policy. Besides, I'm only in this thread to keep the fire going, this popcorn is tasty! ; )

What's your angle here? Do you support the decision to only give 25% off, or what?

"

Oh, i'll be a dick in person if you deserve it. I'll gladly use the same language too.

But I know not to confuse personal life disagreements with work life. And at the end of the day, i'm really nice. So I'll be a dick be it online or in person I'll gladly be like, "yea, I was being a dick when we argued, want a beer". I'm not so cowardly that I can't admit that I can be a dick.

Summary. I'll be an ass if you deserve it be it online or in person. I'll probably apologize for it and let you know I was being an ass. Like in this thread I can tell you, I was an ass to the guardian, to noofus, riltri, and one other person. But they were also spewing intense ignorance on more than one occassion. So yea, I could've dealt with it peacefully, but who cares, it's a silly argument about a topic on a forum, who cares if I use a few choice words. I'm not stressed, I'm just having a convo and happen to use words that society has deemed very aggresive. Who cares. I along with the ones I named will forget by tomorrow, and if one of us doesn't, well, we're immature.

It's been asked a few times and I've seen some people throw out numbers, but as someone who works with a race company, what do you think is the fair reimbursement.

I personally feel the RD has no obligation past the clause in the contract, i.e., no refund and no obligation for the future. However, as someone who wants to be an RD eventually, definitely unacceptable in my eyes. Perhaps no refund this year as funds have been spent but how do you discount next year when so often the race is barely breaking even? Would you say its fair to email all who were registered and give them a discount code that works for a certain period of time and up to X%? I personally would argue that up to 35% would have to be the max as anymore and you risk eating into the funds necessary to put on the following race.

Where do you draw the line at what percent?

My point is very simple: the promoter should not make a profit on a cancelled event. Yes, the athlete should absorb some of the cost, not arguing that. But this promoter made his normal profit + a bonus by not incurring race day expenses...

Congrats, you've identified outliers, take a statistics class to realize they're of no significance.

"

Oh, i'll be a dick in person if you deserve it. I'll gladly use the same language too.

But I know not to confuse personal life disagreements with work life. And at the end of the day, i'm really nice. So I'll be a dick be it online or in person I'll gladly be like, "yea, I was being a dick when we argued, want a beer". I'm not so cowardly that I can't admit that I can be a dick.

Summary. I'll be an ass if you deserve it be it online or in person. I'll probably apologize for it and let you know I was being an ass. Like in this thread I can tell you, I was an ass to the guardian, to noofus, riltri, and one other person. But they were also spewing intense ignorance on more than one occassion. So yea, I could've dealt with it peacefully, but who cares, it's a silly argument about a topic on a forum, who cares if I use a few choice words. I'm not stressed, I'm just having a convo and happen to use words that society has deemed very aggresive. Who cares. I along with the ones I named will forget by tomorrow, and if one of us doesn't, well, we're immature.

CPA and Noofus,

I agree with y'all both. I think you may have missed that in my diatribes. To say, you get no money because you agreed to it and I owe you nothing in return is HORRIBLE business practice and asking that no one return to your race. But there is a fine line as to what you can give back to the consumer as expenditures are real and profit margins in triathlon/running races are next to zero. So as I just asked badger, what do you do?

In my eyes, I'd say 25-35% discount is more than fair. It's acknowledging the unfairness of having the race cancelled and trying to compensate you if you'd like to return while also not sinking the business.

Agree?

What is your cancellation policy?
No refund is available after July 25th. Challenge Penticton wants athletes to feel comfortable registering for the race. A refund less $100- administration costs is available up until July 25th, 2013. Or you can defer your registration fee to 2014.

Seems the Challenge has a very friendly refund policy

Can any RD comment on how challenge is managing to do this?

It would seem to me that the only real way to do that without incurring VERY sizeable loss is to avoid entering into financial arrangements and expending money on material goods until after that date. So perhaps they enter into contracts with clauses that state we will not pay you until this day and you must deliver within one week upon receipt of contract?

Otherwise it seems they risk operating at pretty substantial losses? Just curious. Great policy though if they can financially cover it.

In my eyes, I'd say 25-35% discount is more than fair. It's acknowledging the unfairness of having the race cancelled and trying to compensate you if you'd like to return while also not sinking the business.

Agree?

What is fair is for them to refund 100% of the non-incurred costs and offer a discount to sign up next year. That could be more or less than 25-35%.

And what is smart is to not be a dick about all of it and be as transparent as possible.

Hell, I dont even have any skin in this game. I am not looking for a refund - this race cancellation doesnt affect me at all!

(Unless you count the potential for IMLT to be cancelled for the same reason as this one was, I guess)

What is your cancellation policy?
No refund is available after July 25th. Challenge Penticton wants athletes to feel comfortable registering for the race. A refund less $100- administration costs is available up until July 25th, 2013. Or you can defer your registration fee to 2014.



Seems the Challenge has a very friendly refund policy

Isnt there an insurance aspect here? Do races not carry insurance against something like this happening? If not, why not? If the race director wants repeat business for his future races, I would think making customers happy is a high priority. I dont see why the couch analogy is that bad. Either way the customer is out money, and never received a product. Doesnt matter if you "signed away" the right to a refund if the product is never delivered. You are still out money you paid for and never recieved what you paid for.

In the couch situation, the company is going to have insurance. The insurance company will pay for all the damages. The company providing the couch would offer the refund.

If a race director does NOT have insurance against an unforseen issue that might cancel a race, I would say thats his fault. Not the customers.

What do you mean there is nothing to cover? There are tons of expenses and some of them very sizeable. If you register today, they order medals tonight, and you cancel tomorrow, they've incurred huge cost.

That's why i'm curious as to how they're holding out up to one month out. I'd argue that most races have expended vast amount of funds up to one month out and by race day they've probably expended near 99%.

Was i misunderstanding you though?

I understand they didn't have to give me anything. I entered an agreement when I registered and that's that.

I don't make much money, so this race was expensive for me.

To me, 25% off another race isn't much since they're still making a profit.

I guess my goal here is to vent and see what other athletes on this forum think about the situation. I've achieved my goal and hope all of you have a wonderful rest of the season.

Do not confuse individual refunds with wholesale refunds to all for event-wide cancelation. Very different beasts.

Bingo! If you engage in a business activity without insurance then you should pay the consequence. Ultimately companies putting together races are businesses that have risks. Why should all the risk be pushed out to the customer? This is simply not good business practice. Your customers dont give a crap as to why the race couldn't take place or if it wasn't the company's fault. It's not the participant's fault either that mother nature went crazy. As a business your responsibility is to refund for services not rendered (or provide appropriate consideration) and if you had any sense whatsoever as a business your insurance covered you. If you didn't have insurance then you have two choices as a business: 1. Be bastard and piss off any credibility you have as a business, as Lake Tahoe Triathlon has done, 2. Suck it up and invest in the long term success of your race by not pissing on your customer base.

Big talk. Let's see you put on a race that takes in $200,000 in registration, spends $175,000 in expenses, and then is forced to cancel, and see what you do. The options are buy insurance which make the expense become $225,000 and corespondingly increase the registrations to $250,000, or keep registration fees as low as possible and spread the low risk of event cancelation amongst the participants. If you think races like these, ie the ones that are not put on by multi-million dollar organizations. are willing to expose themselves to a potential $175,000 loss for a likely measly $25,000 gain, you are crazy. But, again, tell those of us who actually do it how it is. It's a crappy business as it is. Exposing yourself to a massive loss in the case of event cancelation is a sure way to get a lot of promoters out of the business.

Fartleker....Can you provide some insight into what the promoter may have saved by not putting on the event? Does the company doing the timing traditionally get paid if the event is cancelled. Are the off-duty police that direct traffic paid? How does it work? What about the food venders that are hired?

Big talk. Let's see you put on a race that takes in $200,000 in registration, spends $175,000 in expenses, and then is forced to cancel, and see what you do. The options are buy insurance which make the expense become $225,000 and corespondingly increase the registrations to $250,000, or keep registration fees as low as possible and spread the low risk of event cancelation amongst the participants. If you think races like these, ie the ones that are not put on by multi-million dollar organizations. are willing to expose themselves to a potential $175,000 loss for a likely measly $25,000 gain, you are crazy. But, again, tell those of us who actually do it how it is. It's a crappy business as it is. Exposing yourself to a massive loss in the case of event cancelation is a sure way to get a lot of promoters out of the business.

Do we know what the insurance actually costs, or are we throwing around random numbers? What does insurance against event cancellation cost?

Why does the customer have to bear the risk of cancellation? Why even bother with USAT insurance and force the customer to bear the risk of injury or death? We could reduce the race fees even more.

If you think races like these, ie the ones that are not put on by multi-million dollar organizations. are willing to expose themselves to a potential $175,000 loss for a likely measly $25,000 gain, you are crazy.

So...they are entitled to nothing for the time they spent organizing and setting up the event? Or would you count that as an incurred cost?

John

That's fine if that's what y'all want, but I guarantee you if they increase registration the thread would be entitled, "Lake Tahoe increases prices, offers no new services" and there would be pages of diatribe.

Seemingly a lose lose proposition. Increase the price too much, you price out participants or make participants unhappy who thus demand more for their money even thought what they got was insurance. Keep the price low and accept the risk, angry people when cancelled.

Tough call and a lose-lose proposition it seems.

Bingo! If you engage in a business activity without insurance then you should pay the consequence. Ultimately companies putting together races are businesses that have risks. Why should all the risk be pushed out to the customer? This is simply not good business practice. Your customers dont give a crap as to why the race couldn't take place or if it wasn't the company's fault. It's not the participant's fault either that mother nature went crazy. As a business your responsibility is to refund for services not rendered (or provide appropriate consideration) and if you had any sense whatsoever as a business your insurance covered you. If you didn't have insurance then you have two choices as a business: 1. Be bastard and piss off any credibility you have as a business, as Lake Tahoe Triathlon has done, 2. Suck it up and invest in the long term success of your race by not pissing on your customer base.

In the end Lake Tahoe Triathlon pissed on all of you who missed out on this race. BTW, I raced the Expedition Man full Iron Distance this Saturday. This race is literally next door to the Lake Tahoe Triathlon. Expedition Man trated us like adults and went on with their race by having us sign a waiver that mase us acknowledge the fact that smoke adds a factor of danger to our health and that we take full responsibility for our actions. The field was very small, but the race was great. All of you Lake Tahoe participants should have taken Expedition Man's offer to come do our race for 50% off. My hats off to the Expedition Man organization for a quality event this weekend in less than ideal circumstances.

'Just a credit for a future race' - I'm OK with you asking for that, as long as when that race comes around, you're willing to:

- not have any generators, sound systems, tents, tables at the venue
- no tables at the aid stations
- willing to take a shirt from this year's canceled event
- no dumpsters. the company was paid this year for delivering them; too bad they weren't filled
- year-old water that may be a little stale; don't know what condition the year-old Gatorade, GU's, or anything else that was going to be available on course (plus chip in some money for the cost of storing that stuff for a year)
- you'll have to pay at the gate for the new race's current permit fees, since the canceled event's fees are already sunk, and there's no new registration income to replace it
- were the bike racks rented? if so, just lay your bike down on a patch of grass or dirt
- was there rented barricade fencing around transition, or along the entrances / exits? hope that nobody wanders into your path while you're racing

I'm sure I haven't hit everything, but if everyone got a free race next year, you would probably find that the race director isn't around to put the race on.

Again, it's the risk you take by going into business!!!! Cry me a river. It's the way the world works sir. You are totally within your rights to pass all the risks and loss to your participants but don't expect enthusiasm for your race next year, if there is a next year, when you treat your participants the way the Lake Tahoe Triathlon has treated theirs. If the risk is too much to handle, then you are absolutely right and you should not be in the business of putting races together. Your point is that it is a low-margin risky business. Agreed. So what? Changes nothing...

This is just brilliant logic....

So, in the first paragraph you basically say that the contract you sign agreeing to a no refund policy means nothing and the organization should buy insurance anyways.

Then in the second paragraph you argue how another organization mitigated risk succesfully by having participants sign a waiver.

My point is you should do everything you can to provide consideration for the participants loss. Rather this triathlon decided to simply say: Sorry suckers, you all agreed to this and you are out of luck. The participant is left thinking: Umm, all their costs are covered, I'm screwed, and they just threw in my face the fact that I agreed to be screwed. What they are doing may be legal and even "fair" but it's still very stupid.

There was actually another tri that was canceled here in May. It was held on a military base. And after Boston, the base freaked out and wanted full social security numbers, driver's license numbers, addresses, and more for 500 participants and and of the spectators. The race organizers canceled in on Tuesday or Wednesday (the event was Sunday) and gave full refunds, turned it into a donation, or gift cards to a local sporting good store.

Whoa, I never argued that the contract the participant signed means nothing. It is legally binding. However, it is a whole other matter to enforce that clause. You as a company can do that, as Lake Tahoe Triathlon has done, but that is not the best move for the long-term prospects of your race. My point is you should do everything you can to provide consideration for the participants loss. Rather this triathlon decided to simply say: Sorry suckers, you all agreed to this and you are out of luck. The participant is left thinking: Umm, all their costs are covered, I'm screwed, and they just threw in my face the fact that I agreed to be screwed. What they are doing may be legal and even "fair" but it's still very stupid.

This isn't about the ironman race is it?

SurfAwave69 wrote:

Lock_N_Load wrote:

My point is you should do everything you can to provide consideration for the participants loss. Rather this triathlon decided to simply say: Sorry suckers, you all agreed to this and you are out of luck. The participant is left thinking: Umm, all their costs are covered, I'm screwed, and they just threw in my face the fact that I agreed to be screwed. What they are doing may be legal and even "fair" but it's still very stupid.

THIS

For those defending the decision to cancel with no offer to give a race credit, please respond to my previous post...

Again, why not give registered athletes a credit to race in another event? Not asking for a cash refund. Not asking for much...and that wasn't offered.

• thunderstorms cancel the swim but rest of event proceeds
• act of God or terrorism terminates an event in progress (ie, Boston Marathon)
• train crossing corrupts the race for some (train schedules are, by law, not published)
• serious accident on course and EMT vehicles block the race course, corrupting the race for some
• a microburst takes down a tent killing people and the event is canceled (ie, see Indiana Sugarland concert)
• a volunteer knocks over your carbon frame in transition and breaks it, ruining your event

PM sent with my mailing address

Your speculation is as good as mine. I'm guessing police and barricades were already paid. Would they be refunded? I don't know. Different jurisdictions would have different policies and contracts.

Shirts and swag were definitely paid for (or donated). I'm guessing the beneficiary (if any) would lose out. Insurance was paid and a portion might be refunded. USATF will refund a portion but I don't know if USAT will.

Timing probably wouldn't be paid, unless bib numbers were already created. If that was the case, it might just be a portion that was paid. It's really impossible to say. Plus, triathlons have much, much bigger budgets and expenses than simple running races.

Did the race have any cash sponsors? Think the race director would give them their money back?

I want to make it clear to everyone reading this thread that I love triathlon and the supportive community around the sport. We need more races and race directors out there.

I usually participate in two tri's a month, a couple trail races, etc. On average, I spend $400 a month on race registrations. I feel as though I'm a big contributor to the industry; $400 a month is significant for me since I make well below $100,000 a year. That being said, I have a right to be displeased with the actions of Big Blue Adventures. They need to do what's right here and give those who spent a considerable about on the race a chance to participate in another event with a full credit.

Look, you're coming at me with aggressive, off-topic questions/attacks. Are you in agreement that only 25% off next year's race is adequate? In my opinion, it's not. It's also just that, my opinion, so take it as that.

The underlined, how do you know this is true? I don't disagree at all with your first sentence but it would seem that we lack the knowledge to know whether or not the RD made any kind of profit. To me, that's what makes it impossible to say (for someone who believes in the first part of what you wrote) whether an RD is right in refunding 25%, or 50%, or whatever, or offering a 25% or 50% discount to a future event. As an RD I can tell you that offering a discount to a future event poses a lot lower risk to me.

1) For those who think triathlon/racing should be the same as commodity businesses such as purchasing a couch. Please tell me what magical little economic universe you live in where things work like that?

2) You have agreed to forfeit your money. There was...
a) an Offer
b) Consideration
c) Acceptance

3) That means we have a legally binding contract that included a clause concerning no refunds.

4) Someone would say this is fraud but for fraud you need,
a) A false statement of material fact
b) knowledge on the part of the defendent the statement is untrue
c) intent to deceive the victim
d) justifiable reliance on the statement by the victim
e) injury to the victim

5) Wow, seems like we only have two elements, thus there is no fraud, no breach of contract, and you are entitled to NO money back.

Who cares what distance I was going to do. Just because you changed the amount of money and the sport doesn't change anything. Yes, if the Race Director wanted to do the right thing, they should let the customer race in another 10k, full credit.

[it is entitled attitudes like those in this thread is a large part of why I am getting out of it.

Recently a marathon in Banff, (apologies if this one has been discussed already in this thread - it's a bit long to go through all the posts), was cancelled at the 11th hour due to the Calgary flooding.
By the time the call had to be made, more than 90% of the money had already been spent to put the race on.
The race organizers donated all the gatorade and food to the flood relief - and I believe gave each athlete a 30% coupon for next year. They also agreed to mail each athlete the finishing jersey.
After all that there was about 5K left and they donated that to flood relief.
The director told me they would lose money on each athlete who took them up on the 30% coupon.

They received 12 letters threatening to sue. I'm not sure how many entrants they had but I believe it was close to 700.
Too bad it would have been a beautiful marathon.

Who cares what distance I was going to do. Just because you changed the amount of money and the sport doesn't change anything. Yes, if the Race Director wanted to do the right thing, they should let the customer race in another 10k, full credit.