Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled, no refunds (Page 5): Triathlon Forum: Slowtwitch Forums

Re: Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled, no refunds [Ex-cyclist] [ In reply to ]

Aug 27, 13 10:20

So they have to cancel a race but, as a bonus they walk with their profit margin? It's crap. At the very least a free entry to another race should be given with a small transfer fee at most.

Not a cool move on the company.

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Re: Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled, no refunds [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]

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TriGirrrrl

Aug 27, 13 10:20

Post #102 of 413 (7324 views)

RowToTri wrote:

Peanut wrote:

SurfAwave69 wrote:

Again, why not give registered athletes a credit to race in another event? Not asking for a cash refund. Not asking for much...and that wasn't offered.

'Just a credit for a future race' - I'm OK with you asking for that, as long as when that race comes around, you're willing to:

- not have any generators, sound systems, tents, tables at the venue
- no tables at the aid stations
- willing to take a shirt from this year's canceled event
- no dumpsters. the company was paid this year for delivering them; too bad they weren't filled
- year-old water that may be a little stale; don't know what condition the year-old Gatorade, GU's, or anything else that was going to be available on course (plus chip in some money for the cost of storing that stuff for a year)
- you'll have to pay at the gate for the new race's current permit fees, since the canceled event's fees are already sunk, and there's no new registration income to replace it
- were the bike racks rented? if so, just lay your bike down on a patch of grass or dirt
- was there rented barricade fencing around transition, or along the entrances / exits? hope that nobody wanders into your path while you're racing

I'm sure I haven't hit everything, but if everyone got a free race next year, you would probably find that the race director isn't around to put the race on.

This does not make any sense. Look at the NYC marathon last year. It's a race with massive costs and infrastructure. They did not officially cancel until JUST before the race so all the money really was spent. All competitors got to choose whether they got refunded in full, or got guaranteed qualification and free entry to the next event. It may have even been more generous than that, I cannot remember exactly, but they handled it right. And NYRR doesn't have a ton of cash in the bank to just pay for all of that out of their own pocket. If a race does not have insurance to cover race cancellation due to force majeure, then the race director is being irresponsible.

this

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Re: Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled, no refunds [justarunner] [ In reply to ]

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RowToTri

Aug 27, 13 10:21

Post #103 of 413 (7322 views)

justarunner wrote:

1)

7) For the idiots who argued about NYRR paying back the athletes and the other idiot who said, "yea, NYRR doesn't have that much money"...Are you f'n kidding me? NYRR is essentially the largest running club in the U.S. if not the world. If ANY one entity has the payroll, sponsors, and insurance to back a mass refund, it's the f'n NYRR. Lake Tahoe triathlon is like a drop in an ocean compared to NYRR. Be serious with these awful comparisons.

For all the swearing and name-calling in this point, I see no actual rational thought. A nearly $13 million refund liability for an organization with a $1.7 million operating margin is just as much of an existential threat as is the liability faced by a cancellation for a small organization putting on a small race. A small race can get insurance to cover this kind of thing the same way big races do and the cost of that insurance reflects the lower liability. I do not know what it would cost, but it is definitely in the realm of doable, especially for a race charging over $200 per participant. If they have to race the entry by a few bucks, no one would notice. I have a business with only 5 employees and I have more insurance policies to cover more things than I can count. Including things that have absolutely nothing to do with me, but I am still on the hook for. Like worker's comp insurance so that if my employee gets injured when base jumping on the weekend (absolutely nothing to do with his job) I am able to have his wages paid to him even though he is no longer able to work.

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www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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Re: Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled, no refunds [justarunner] [ In reply to ]

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g_lev

Aug 27, 13 10:23

Post #104 of 413 (7320 views)

justarunner wrote:

Says the guy who I will bet both nuts on often registers for races, signed the legally binding contract with the no refund clause, and yet still acts like a bad ass on the ST.

It's an industry practice, the ENTIRE INDUSTRY does it. So may I ask what the hell you're doing on slowtwitch?

Do you hate, USAT, ITU, WTC, Joe Blo's triathlon series, etc. Because they all play by the same rule. Most running events and swimming events do to.

"get insurance that covers it", yea, then I will have to read the stupid ass thread you start because race fees went up $10.

You guys want your cake, want to eat it, and then rub it in the face of everyone else.

SHUT UP and man up or leave the sport. Stop bitching in little threads where you will ultimately turn around and just register for your next event.

Hypocrite.

Nice straw man. Read every one of my posts. The search function works pretty well on this site. Go ahead, I will wait. I never profess to be a bad ass. How much was it you wanted to bet? I think you owe me money.

The industry is screwed up if it feels it can continuously fleece its customers of money like this.

But never mind. I will "shut up and leave ST like a little girl" if it makes you feel better.

I do like how you call me a hypocrite... thats awesome. Some evidence? And you will need to provide specific examples from posts *I* made. Once again, go ahead, I will wait.

Then I will await your apology...

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Re: Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled, no refunds [justarunner] [ In reply to ]

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DFW_Tri

Aug 27, 13 10:24

Post #105 of 413 (7317 views)

"You signed a contract that is legally binding and legally sound that told you so."

I think this argument misses the mark. Since the chances of a lawsuit over this are exremely small, the effect of the RD's decision is very simple. Either the majority of people at large will agree with ther OP and not sign up for this event in the future in which case the RD probably made a poor, short-sighted (albeit, difficult) decision ...OR...the majority of the people at large will disagree with the OP, not care and continue to sign up for this race.

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Re: Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled, no refunds [justarunner] [ In reply to ]

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riltri

Aug 27, 13 10:24

Post #106 of 413 (7315 views)

It's an industry practice, the ENTIRE INDUSTRY does it.

FAIL. Go back and read fartleker post. There are some ethical promoters who put on good races.

Last edited by: riltri: Aug 27, 13 10:27

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Re: Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled, no refunds [themuse1] [ In reply to ]

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SurfAwave69

Aug 27, 13 10:26

Post #107 of 413 (7310 views)

Hi Mark,

Thanks for the response. I agree with you.

Their policy is upfront about not receiving any refunds, I agreed to it and I'm okay with it. I'm SOL on that.

I'm perplexed by the '25% off on the next race' offer, obviously. You're right about the market sorting out the winners an losers. I really want(ed) to continue to race in their events, especially because the Tahoe basin is a great venue for triathlons. I really want Big Blue to make this right.

I was speaking with a lady who entered both their Tahoe Big Swim that was on Saturday and the Lake Tahoe Half Triathlon that was on Sunday, both cancelled due to smoke. She drove up from San Diego which is a LONG drive. She spent a lot more than I did and is considerably upset that there wasn't a simple concession made.

Regards!

Last edited by: SurfAwave69: Aug 27, 13 10:29

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Re: Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled, no refunds [justarunner] [ In reply to ]

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SurfL

Aug 27, 13 10:27

Post #108 of 413 (7300 views)

What kind of cake?

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Re: Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled, no refunds [riltri] [ In reply to ]

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g_lev

Aug 27, 13 10:28

Post #109 of 413 (7294 views)

riltri wrote:

It's an industry practice, the ENTIRE INDUSTRY does it.

FAIL. Go back and read fartleker (sp) post. There are some ethical promoters who put on good races.

Another counterpoint: 2 years ago I was signed up for a half marathon that got cancelled due to a hurricane. RD emailed everyone with his apologies and said he couldnt issue refunds, but everyone would get a free entry into the next year's race.

That next year came around and I happened to be out of state long-term. I emailed him asking for a deferral if possible (but I wouldnt be upset if he couldnt do it). He emailed back and said he was happy to defer me, and put me on the list for this year.

This is how a person should run a business. It makes me, the customer, want to come back and do more business with him.

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Re: Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled, no refunds [SurfAwave69] [ In reply to ]

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asad137

Aug 27, 13 10:29

Post #110 of 413 (7286 views)

SurfAwave69 wrote:

Personally, I'm not asking for my full fee of $225 to be given back to me. Give me a chance to race in one of your next events with a full credit. Telling me to PAY for another event with $20 off...bad, bad, bad.

If you're trying to make a sensible argument, it REALLY hurts your case when you throw out inaccurate numbers. 25% of $225 is $56.25, not $20. It's shit like this that makes it clear you haven't actually thought about the situation, you're just peeved at the company.

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Post deleted by justarunner [ In reply to ]

justarunner

Aug 27, 13 10:29

Post #111 of 413 (7286 views)

Re: Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled, no refunds [cmonster] [ In reply to ]

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riltri

Aug 27, 13 10:29

Post #112 of 413 (7282 views)

cmonster wrote:

So they have to cancel a race but, as a bonus they walk with their profit margin? It's crap. At the very least a free entry to another race should be given with a small transfer fee at most.

Not a cool move on the company.

They not only walk away with their profit, they get a large bonus by not incurring the race day expenses. A win-win for them.

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Re: Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled, no refunds [riltri] [ In reply to ]

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justarunner

Aug 27, 13 10:30

Post #113 of 413 (7278 views)

Congrats, you've identified outliers, take a statistics class to realize they're of no significance.

riltri wrote:

It's an industry practice, the ENTIRE INDUSTRY does it.

FAIL. Go back and read fartleker post. There are some ethical promoters who put on good races.

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Re: Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled, no refunds [justarunner] [ In reply to ]

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Goosedog

Aug 27, 13 10:31

Post #114 of 413 (7269 views)

This site would be a better place if every fucking disagreement didn't result in this strawman bitching. It's stronger Godwin's.

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Re: Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled, no refunds [SurfAwave69] [ In reply to ]

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EricTheBiking

Aug 27, 13 10:32

Post #115 of 413 (7266 views)

SurfAwave69 wrote:

To just say 'Aw, dude, sorry, uh, it's cancelled, you're out $225...how about you pay for another one of our races?! I'll give you $20 off!' not cool.

SurfAwave69 wrote:

Business is business, and if you're going to say 'Sorry dude, race cancelled, no full credit for you...just pay for another race and we'll give you $20 off'...you're going to lose business.

SurfAwave69 wrote:

Please, this is just deflection from the real issue.

I get that it was deflection. My point was that you were shrilling the $20 figure over and over, three times to be exact. I get that this sucks, I get that it's awful when a race gets cancelled, but it's more nuanced than that and you kept drilling the number over and over. That's all.

-Eric

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Re: Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled, no refunds [asad137] [ In reply to ]

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SurfAwave69

Aug 27, 13 10:32

Post #116 of 413 (7263 views)

Ugh...again, deflection from the main issue. Is every race the same price? No.

I'd be cool with them letting me race for free in an event that was $125 or something, even though I paid $225 for the cancelled event. I don't care...just show a gesture that's in good faith towards the athlete.

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Post deleted by justarunner [ In reply to ]

justarunner

Aug 27, 13 10:34

Post #117 of 413 (7256 views)

Re: Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled, no refunds [EricTheBiking] [ In reply to ]

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SurfAwave69

Aug 27, 13 10:35

Post #118 of 413 (7249 views)

25% is 25% off...do you agree with their decision?

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Post deleted by justarunner [ In reply to ]

justarunner

Aug 27, 13 10:36

Post #119 of 413 (7241 views)

Last edited by: justarunner: Aug 27, 13 10:41

Re: Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled, no refunds [justarunner] [ In reply to ]

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g_lev

Aug 27, 13 10:37

Post #120 of 413 (7236 views)

justarunner wrote:

Seems like you don't know what a strawman is nor do you know how to read. My betting was on that you register for races. Do you not? Have you never registered for one?

So you complain, yet you compete in the sport, so you're a hypocrite because you're embracing what you're complaining about. No strawman. Don't throw out logical fallacies if you don't even understand them.

I also called you a "bad ass" because you're trying to act tough while providing no good justification except for, "wah, I want my money".

So let's sum this up. You act all tough and complain about something you don't like yet you embrace it by participating, this makes you an internet bad ass and a real life hypocrite. You don't know what logical fallacies are. And you think the industry model is screwed up but you're doing nothing to change that model. Anymore awesomeness coming out of your fingers today?

Just because I participate doesnt mean I embrace the practice. My justification for wanting a refund is simply that I am a customer paying for a service and I expect that service to be delivered.

But go ahead and continue to insult me if you wish. Thats fine. You *could* have had this argument without being a dick. But since you are incapable of civil discourse, I might as well stoop to your level and call you names too. I guess that just pulled me down to your level, so be it.

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Re: Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled, no refunds [The Guardian] [ In reply to ]

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apbadger

Aug 27, 13 10:38

Post #121 of 413 (7228 views)

The Guardian wrote:

justarunner wrote:

The Guardian wrote:

justarunner wrote:

What refund do you want?

I'm always astounded by how little participants know about the actual processes of the races they participate in. Your money is most likely gone, used, spent, voila.

People have to get paid, materials were bought, permits were paid for, etc. It's not like, "oh shit, we're sorry, let us unspend all this money so you can have your money back".

It simply does NOT work like that. Anytime a runner, triathlete, swimmer, or cyclists ask for a refund what it really amounts to saying is, "Hi, i'm very ignorant of the process of how races are put on, can you make a special exception for me and pay me back with money that no longest exist".

Shit happens, races get cancelled, suck it up.

This thread should have been titled "Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled". The "no refunds" part amounts to a "no shit, sherlock".

/rant

Let us suppose I buy a couch and I pay upfront. The store sends my order to its in-house factory. They spend money and time making my couch. The night before it is to be delivered to me, the couch burns down. The store does not come to me and say - sorry, no couch, and no refund - regardless of how much money they have already spent behind the scenes. I either get a couch, or I get a refund.

I didn't know comparing apples to oreos made for good analogies. I'm going running, when i get back I'll explain why you're ignorant of how races work.

Please do - while you are at it, please explain why races should be somehow different from other businesses.

Race directors don't sell a commodity.

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Re: Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled, no refunds [justarunner] [ In reply to ]

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Goosedog

Aug 27, 13 10:40

Post #122 of 413 (7222 views)

justarunner wrote:

Sorry, but the level of 'tard in this thread is unreal. As someone who wants to be a RD and a great one someday, I rage at the level of incompetence among participants, especially ones dedicated enough to loaf about in forums such as ST. If you're own ST, obviously you care about triathlon or some aspect of one fo the three sports of triathlon. So to see such a blazen level of ignorance and such a general distaste for people who bust their ass to provide great services infuriates me like no other.

I hope you'll be able to convince these dumb fucks to participant in your races. Best of luck.

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Re: Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled, no refunds [apbadger] [ In reply to ]

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g_lev

Aug 27, 13 10:41

Post #123 of 413 (7219 views)

apbadger wrote:

Race directors don't sell a commodity.

RDs sell a service. Not that much unlike buying an airplane ticket.

If your flight is cancelled by mother nature, the airline books you on the next available flight. They dont offer you a refund, but they also dont make you buy another ticket for that next flight.

Last edited by: noofus: Aug 27, 13 10:43

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Post deleted by justarunner [ In reply to ]

justarunner

Aug 27, 13 10:42

Post #124 of 413 (7214 views)

Re: Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled, no refunds [justarunner] [ In reply to ]

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g_lev

Aug 27, 13 10:44

Post #125 of 413 (7209 views)

justarunner wrote:

Go for it, if you're so upset that a guy on the internet called you a name, you've a lot of growing up to do. I recognized incompetence and called it for what it was. Sorry if that offends you.

Sounds like you are the one that got upset because your potential customers are calling out your bad business practices.

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