I don't expect any kind of a refund if I choose not to race, be it from injury, burn out, or my chinchilla being eaten by my girlfriend's cat. A canceled event is something different, to me.

There was actually another tri that was canceled here in May. It was held on a military base. And after Boston, the base freaked out and wanted full social security numbers, driver's license numbers, addresses, and more for 500 participants and and of the spectators. The race organizers canceled in on Tuesday or Wednesday (the event was Sunday) and gave full refunds, turned it into a donation, or gift cards to a local sporting good store.

That, to me, is a better business move.

What refund do you want?

I'm always astounded by how little participants know about the actual processes of the races they participate in. Your money is most likely gone, used, spent, voila.

People have to get paid, materials were bought, permits were paid for, etc. It's not like, "oh shit, we're sorry, let us unspend all this money so you can have your money back".

It simply does NOT work like that. Anytime a runner, triathlete, swimmer, or cyclists ask for a refund what it really amounts to saying is, "Hi, i'm very ignorant of the process of how races are put on, can you make a special exception for me and pay me back with money that no longest exist".

Shit happens, races get cancelled, suck it up.

This thread should have been titled "Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled". The "no refunds" part amounts to a "no shit, sherlock".

/rant

This is the practical point that people seem to be conflating with the legal question.

That said, just for my own interest, is there any type of insurance that you could obtain to cover a force majeure situation for which you would offer refunds?

From consumer protection laws standpoint, this is no different than paying for that couch and not getting it. Money was spent on services not rendered. It doesn't matter that money was already spent by the RD and gone. It doesn't matter. Race still took money, and gave nothing in return.

I have zero issue with the promoter keeping a portion of the registration fees and fully understand that I entered under my own free will. What I don't like is that the promoter will actually make a larger profit by not incurring the race-day expenses. They have padded their own wallet by cancelling the event and offer little back to the athletes. As fartlaker stated in another post, their decision is probably short sighted and they will loose in the long run.

Sure, let's see if you can understand this concept.

You and your best buddy are at the airport, waiting for the plane to take you to Kona when you realize that you have forgotten to pack your helmet. The plane is leaving in 1 hour, but you remember that there is a bike shop, just 20 minutes away. Since you are worried you can't find the helmet you want in Kona, you tell your buddy you plan to quickly get to the bike shop, buy a new helmet and make it back in time for the flight. Just as you walk off he presses $20 in your hand and asks you to pick him up a multi tool, since he isn't sure if he packed his.

You do your shopping, buy a new, very aero, helmet and pick up the multi tool for your buddy. Standing in line waiting to go through security you gloat about how well this is working out. As you hear the final boarding call for your flight, you are about to pick your bag off the x-ray belt. Just then, the friendly TSA agent tells you that multi-tool isn't going to be allowed any further. Now scrambling to make your flight and believing your friend to be reasonable, you decide to leave the multi tool behind and make a dash for the gate.

When you settle in beside your buddy on the plane, you find out maybe he isn't that reasonable after all. You thought he would understand the force majeur, but clearly he isn't understanding at all. Or maybe he is understanding, but just not caring...

He wants a multi-tool or $20 and if he doesn't get either real soon, he is going to tell the friendly flight attendant you keep muttering about a bomb.

You have $5 in your pocket, the choice is yours......

Being a Harvard of the South grad (WCU), I have too much business sense to get into a venture with the rick/reward that race promoters deal with.

Actually, on second thought, go ahead and send me the $1000 and I will get started putting one together. I will even give your athletes a 10% discount on entry fees. PM sent with my mailing address.....and we do accept PayPal ;)

You're really not doing yourself any favors here.

Personally, I'm not asking for my full fee of $225 to be given back to me. Give me a chance to race in one of your next events with a full credit. Telling me to PAY for another event with $20 off...bad, bad, bad.

That is all true.

But,

From consumer protection laws standpoint, this is no different than paying for that couch and not getting it. Money was spent on services not rendered. It doesn't matter that money was already spent by the RD and gone. It doesn't matter. Race still took money, and gave nothing in return. Dip into that piggybank or get a loan and return what they took. Or declare bankruptcy and then legally they are no longer obligated to issue refunds.

An athlete left out to dry should not give a crap that the money was spent on stuff the athlete will never see or use. Every business who may owe me money and can't pay up is in that precise same situation, and yet they are obligated to refund unless they declare bankruptcy. But a race taking money, not putting on a show, and then continuing on as if nothing happened is somehow acceptable? Hell no. Like someone said, any decent lawyer could get you your money back. The no refunds policy you've agreed on when you signed up is worthless if it isn't legal.

Edit: mind you, I don't advocate suing to get your money back. It will only hurt the sport. May be cheaper in the long term to just suck it up and write off that money, which is exactly what we all do and exactly why this trend of no-refunds still exists. We let it exist rather than challenge it, for the good of the sport.

You can't compare New York Road Runners with most organizers, other than WTC and a few other large/corporate even coordinators. NYRR is a HUGE operation, that pretty much puts up sold-out races every weekend (at a high cost for a low cost venue like Central Park usually). They pay their president $$$$$$ and had the means to cover the cost (with their insurance company).

The discount question really comes down to the marginal cost of adding an extra person to an existing race. Those generators and other expenses are already covered for the most part. I personally think a 25% discount is a little "cheap". I wouldn't enter a race put on by that promoter; the market will probably speak and they will go out of business.

You keep restating this $20 number, when in reality it was around $56. The RD is giving you 25% off, not 9% off.

-Eric

1) For those who think triathlon/racing should be the same as commodity businesses such as purchasing a couch. Please tell me what magical little economic universe you live in where things work like that?

2) You have agreed to forfeit your money. There was...
a) an Offer
b) Consideration
c) Acceptance

3) That means we have a legally binding contract that included a clause concerning no refunds.

4) Someone would say this is fraud but for fraud you need,
a) A false statement of material fact
b) knowledge on the part of the defendent the statement is untrue
c) intent to deceive the victim
d) justifiable reliance on the statement by the victim
e) injury to the victim

5) Wow, seems like we only have two elements, thus there is no fraud, no breach of contract, and you are entitled to NO money back.

6) For people like the guardian who can't wrap their brain around why this business model is different is because this business provides a single service, once a year, and mass refunds would immediately bankrupt said company as opposed to a couch company which has factored in one bad couch every 1000. 1 bad race in one race with refunds = bye bye race.

7) For the idiots who argued about NYRR paying back the athletes and the other idiot who said, "yea, NYRR doesn't have that much money"...Are you f'n kidding me? NYRR is essentially the largest running club in the U.S. if not the world. If ANY one entity has the payroll, sponsors, and insurance to back a mass refund, it's the f'n NYRR. Lake Tahoe triathlon is like a drop in an ocean compared to NYRR. Be serious with these awful comparisons.

8) People who demand refunds, future credits, etc are a stain on this sport. RDs bust their ass to give the best possible experience and their's a damn fire blazing through the west and y'all cry that you want your money back. Well WAH, you don't get it. You signed a contract that is legally binding and legally sound that told you so. If you don't like it, leave the sport. But stop complaining because you sound ignorant and whiny.

1) For those who think triathlon/racing should be the same as commodity businesses such as purchasing a couch. Please tell me what magical little economic universe you live in where things work like that?

2) You have agreed to forfeit your money. There was...
a) an Offer
b) Consideration
c) Acceptance

3) That means we have a legally binding contract that included a clause concerning no refunds.

4) Someone would say this is fraud but for fraud you need,
a) A false statement of material fact
b) knowledge on the part of the defendent the statement is untrue
c) intent to deceive the victim
d) justifiable reliance on the statement by the victim
e) injury to the victim

5) Wow, seems like we only have two elements, thus there is no fraud, no breach of contract, and you are entitled to NO money back.

6) For people like the guardian who can't wrap their brain around why this business model is different is because this business provides a single service, once a year, and mass refunds would immediately bankrupt said company as opposed to a couch company which has factored in one bad couch every 1000. 1 bad race in one race with refunds = bye bye race.

7) For the idiots who argued about NYRR paying back the athletes and the other idiot who said, "yea, NYRR doesn't have that much money"...Are you f'n kidding me? NYRR is essentially the largest running club in the U.S. if not the world. If ANY one entity has the payroll, sponsors, and insurance to back a mass refund, it's the f'n NYRR. Lake Tahoe triathlon is like a drop in an ocean compared to NYRR. Be serious with these awful comparisons.

8) People who demand refunds, future credits, etc are a stain on this sport. RDs bust their ass to give the best possible experience and their's a damn fire blazing through the west and y'all cry that you want your money back. Well WAH, you don't get it. You signed a contract that is legally binding and legally sound that told you so. If you don't like it, leave the sport. But stop complaining because you sound ignorant and whiny.