Re: Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled, no refunds [SurfAwave69] [ In reply to ]

Aug 27, 13 19:43

Post #301 of 413 (6013 views)

Amazing.

After reading as many of the comments as possible in the limited time left in the day; which starts at 4-5am for most race directors (NOT a race day..those are 2am) we are just in awe of how little the posters on ST understand there own sport. Which sport in America is understood less?

We have built 7 huge race teams over these many years since 1995 from Worlds/Nationals and now local organizing teams hosting everything under the IM distance; Triathlons, 1/2 Marathons, Muds, 5k/10k's and another 5 teams operating community corporate games style tournaments including everything from Golf to Trivia.

Do you know what the new members of EVERY single team have said after their first race; WHAT the hell was that!! Ironman multiple top finishers have stated without question the hardest thing they have EVER DONE..Dead on their feet tired! We have had so many top business leaders in all walks of life; CEO's on down just step back and wonder what they hell kind of cray business producing a triathlon really is after their first race on a team.

You know what happens next. Those same new team members not only love helping at the next race but are SUPER happy to just be a part of our sport and have a chance to give back. THEY GET IT!

Do you?

What slowman has stated in absolutely dead on.

There are fires in the area and you want your money back? WOW. Just like the only person to miss the arrows the size of a car at Nationals in 2002... 1 of 1116 and screams at us he wants his money back...

Every single person that is bitching on this thread needs to VOLUNTEER for your local race!

STIndiana
America Multi-Sport, Inc.
America's Half June 10, 2017
USAT RD Century Club
http://www.americamultisport.com

Re: Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled, no refunds [Stindiana] [ In reply to ]

Aug 27, 13 19:52

Post #302 of 413 (5998 views)

Stindiana wrote:

1 of 1116 and screams at us he wants his money back...

Every single person that is bitching on this thread needs to VOLUNTEER for your local race!

I guess you are the race promoter.

Did some government agency ask you to not put on the race?

Were any of the swimming, bicycling, or running routes closed due to government action?

If only one person wanted their money back, it seems that paying them would be the reasonable thing to do.

---

Do you understand the concept of paying people for their labor? It is similar to providing a service that someone paid for.

---

I am taking too much interest for a guy who does not care about this stuff. But the amount of misinformation being used to justify a poor financial decision is remarkable.

Re: Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled, no refunds [Lock_N_Load] [ In reply to ]

Aug 27, 13 19:53

Post #303 of 413 (5994 views)

Lock_N_Load wrote:

fartleker wrote:

Being that I'm tapering for Hy-Vee, my mind is going lots of places and it's been giving me lots of time today to think more about the situation. And there will be lots of assumptions and random numbers put out here. If that bugs you, it might be best to skip this post...

The interesting thing about race directing is 60-70% of the costs are likely sunk and fixed. Police, barricades, insurance. These are likely the bigger costs for events. No matter if the event has 100 people or 1,000, these costs will not vary much.

Shirts, swag, food, and timing are very likely sunk costs, but they aren't fixed. Figure $20/participant.

Let's say you have a 400 person event at $100 a person. That's 40k revenue. Maybe the police, barricades, insurance, tents, transition racks, and whatever else comes to $25k. I don't put on tris, but who knows what the actual number is.

$20 per person for 400 participants for the variable costs is $8k. So the total costs for the event are $33k, making the profit $7k. Is that likely? I have no idea, and that really isn't the point right now.

Let's say the event gets canceled, like this. I'll throw two scenarios out: 1. The race director says, sorry, tough shit, like they can legally do. 2. The race director rolls over the entry fee.

Situation 1. Race director still makes the profit of $7k for this event. 25% of these people never run a race again from this company. Maybe they do 2 races from the company each year. That's $300 revenue, but $260 profit that the RD loses each year. Why $260? 100*260 = 26k each year that the RD loses. There fixed costs don't change, so we are only concerned with the variable costs.

Situation 2. Race director rolls over the registrations. Maybe 75% of the entrants use it, the other 25% forget. He gets another 100 to pay the entry fee, making total revenue of $15k. Expenses are still $33k, so he loses $18k this year. Yet, the $7k help offset this and he didn't piss of 25% of his consumer base.

Yes, yes, it's all a bunch of numbers thrown together. Which would an RD prefer, though, for long term race growth? A tri race director could likely put in the correct numbers to make it more accurate, but I'm still guessing situation 2 would be better.

Finally, a case study. KNY, are these numbers realistic? Also, can anyone say how much insurance for this type of eventuality would raise fees? If we are talking $5-$10 bucks per participant, then I'm really sorry but there is absolutely no excuse why RD's should not be covered. Can anyone comment on the cost of insurance? If it's available and it's not horrendously expensive then I believe the argument should be pretty much over...

You know what, I'm just going to say, "I don't know". The financials behind my event are a data point of one, they are all that I know and can speak to, and I intentionally run razor-thin margins, so am not representative of the industry margins. I could charge more or give away less and maybe it would cause less participation or maybe it wouldn't. I don't know. For my case, the $20/head for the line items listed is massively low. I give away a really high-end true color sublimated tech finisher t at $12 per for 1000 count order (won USAT 2012 best race t-shirt), finish line food of bbq, fries, drinks, homemade ice cream is $15 per head, various schwag another $15 +/- per head. Timing about $8-10 per head after all expenses like travel and lodging come into play. Lots more expenses and my event is a data point of one, but $20/head for the line items listed by fartleker is way, way off for my race. I also only put on only one race and have to rent much infrastructure that others own, so I don't have economies of scale and have higher average expenses per event and I've never had the passion to go sponsor begging. All of which is to say, others very likely can and do have much better margins than me.

Re: Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled, no refunds [kny] [ In reply to ]

Aug 27, 13 20:21

Post #304 of 413 (5961 views)

Hey KNY--I really have no idea who you are. well, maybe I do a tiny bit...are you the dude that rode that TI Moots with a camera ON IT?

If you are that guy (and if you were you were a studly biker) and you do a race in MD I'm grateful for it. If you put on the race and get shut out and you don't give themn back their prepaid price of admission and they complain and you think that its wrong then enjoy your illusion....

PM me if you want to know really personal stuff...but I can report anders just bought a very nice home in Santa Monica....

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.

Re: Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled, no refunds [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]

Aug 27, 13 20:33

Post #305 of 413 (5951 views)

rcmioga wrote:

Hey KNY--I really have no idea who you are. well, maybe I do a tiny bit...are you the dude that rode that TI Moots with a camera ON IT?

If you are that guy (and if you were you were a studly biker) and you do a race in MD I'm grateful for it. If you put on the race and get shut out and you don't give themn back their prepaid price of admission and they complain and you think that its wrong then enjoy your illusion....

PM me if you want to know really personal stuff...but I can report anders just bought a very nice home in Santa Monica....

That's me. GoPro before GoPro existed. Man, I totally blew it on that one; the entrepreneur in me knew I should have taken that homemade handlebar mount and camera and commercialized it. But I snoozed and I losed and now GoPro owns the world.

SavageMan does have a money-back satisfaction guarantee (yes, it's been offered for 7 years now but never has anyone requested their money back), but if people want their money back because the event is canceled due to circumstances outside my control, I'm not tapping into my personal stash to pay people back. Sorry. I provide a benefit to the triathlon community by putting on the event and the risk gets shared.

Re: Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled, no refunds [btmoney] [ In reply to ]

Aug 27, 13 20:34

Post #306 of 413 (5951 views)

btmoney wrote:

If/when that happens to me ill never sign up for a race with that company again. I know I sign my life away when registering, but it doesn't make it right

So you are basically saying you have no integrity and when you sign something you don't consider that it has any meaning?

What's right about that?

Re: Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled, no refunds [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]

Aug 27, 13 20:35

Post #307 of 413 (5949 views)

welp, that or don't race

Re: Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled, no refunds [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]

Aug 27, 13 20:39

Post #308 of 413 (5942 views)

rcmioga wrote:

Hey Dev--that seems like a comment way below your reputation. We/I sold both of them to motivated buyers and part of the reason was I wanted to be less obligated by day to day obligations. I've been blessed to pursue a more interesting and fluid business situation since.

I'm curious--why the potshot? You've always seemed like a reasonable sort in the past....

Mostly because I'm tired of all the petty bickering over one whiny ass post by some guy that feels cheated. I swear, the weirdest things on this forum turn into mega threads.

And because it was there. :D

Edited - You are correct, it was a cheap shot. I engaged keys before brain. Apologies.

John

Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

Last edited by: Devlin: Aug 27, 13 20:45

Re: Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled, no refunds [noofus] [ In reply to ]

Aug 27, 13 20:40

Post #309 of 413 (5939 views)

noofus wrote:

Isnt there an insurance aspect here? Do races not carry insurance against something like this happening? If not, why not? If the race director wants repeat business for his future races, I would think making customers happy is a high priority. I dont see why the couch analogy is that bad. Either way the customer is out money, and never received a product. Doesnt matter if you "signed away" the right to a refund if the product is never delivered. You are still out money you paid for and never recieved what you paid for.

In the couch situation, the company is going to have insurance. The insurance company will pay for all the damages. The company providing the couch would offer the refund.

If a race director does NOT have insurance against an unforseen issue that might cancel a race, I would say thats his fault. Not the customers.

why is an act of god, such as a fire, any more the responsibility of the RD than the participant?

You missing the race because it was cancelled due to fire is just as much an act of god as if you were in a car accident and missed the race. Both events the RD has no control over, but yet in one case you think the RD is supposed to compensate you. Why is there any more reason the RD should carry insurance against people being unable to race due to fire as opposed to a car accident.

Re: Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled, no refunds [SurfAwave69] [ In reply to ]

Aug 27, 13 20:43

Post #310 of 413 (5933 views)

SurfAwave69 wrote:

Deflection again. I feel like a broken record.

25% off of another race after an athlete paid in full for a cancelled event, that's the topic.

I still would like to know how you came to the cost of $225. There isn't a race/timeframe for entry fees on the LTT page that matches $225.

John

Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

Re: Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled, no refunds [bt] [ In reply to ]

Aug 27, 13 20:43

Post #311 of 413 (5930 views)

It's all good, man. I want to give my money to Race Directors that want my business, that's all. I'm sure Big Blue will continue their business and do fine, I just will patronize other events.

Re: Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled, no refunds [kny] [ In reply to ]

Aug 27, 13 20:51

Post #312 of 413 (5918 views)

Well--if you think that what you're doing is just providing a service then good for you. end of conversation.

However, if you believe that when you don't provide what customers thought they bought, and then you're surprised they had expected you to deliver what you had promised, and that's cool with you, then don't be mystified that you missed your "GoPro" business opportunity, or any other real business opportunity....I'm not slamming you, but just saying that your approach will not really allow to be successful in any real business...KNY, or whatever your name is, to win in biz you must meet the needs of customers...sustainably...or who cares about your biz/service? Bad idea.

While I'm not generally in the business of just providing a service to triathletes that I won't stand behind when things get tough, but I will say that from what I've heard, Savageman has great reviews. congrats to you!

Based on your attitude towards your customers here though, I am now taking your race off my list of races to do.....I know you don't care because you are providing a service.

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.

Re: Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled, no refunds [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Aug 27, 13 20:57

Post #313 of 413 (5907 views)

Is there not a race insurance company that RD's can go through? I would imagine that given how many races do go off without any problems, the premium would not be remarkably expensive and could cover cases just like this.

Post deleted by rcmioga [ In reply to ]

Aug 27, 13 20:58

Post #314 of 413 (5906 views)

Post deleted by kny [ In reply to ]

Aug 27, 13 21:00

Post #315 of 413 (5897 views)

Re: Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled, no refunds [An Old Guy] [ In reply to ]

Aug 27, 13 21:02

Post #316 of 413 (5891 views)

"It appears the ITU requires event cancellation insurance of event promoters."

this wasn't an ITU race. why don't you research this, since this is of importance to you? i'd like to know what the premium would be.

"Since you made the claim that insurers would not pay claims for event cancellation"

while you're researching the premiums, maybe you can also research where i made that statement you just said i made.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Post deleted by rcmioga [ In reply to ]

Aug 27, 13 21:11

Post #317 of 413 (5877 views)

Re: Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled, no refunds [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]

Aug 27, 13 21:15

Post #318 of 413 (5868 views)

rcmioga wrote:

Based on your attitude towards your customers here though, I am now taking your race off my list of races to do.....I know you don't care because you are providing a service.

And the bizarre meter just went to 11.

Re: Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled, no refunds [Goosedog] [ In reply to ]

Aug 27, 13 21:38

Post #319 of 413 (5830 views)

I was in Tahoe over this past weekend, from Arizona. I did a tempo run (10am) on Saturday and felt great. Did a 1.2mi swim (11am) on Sunday morning. Other than the altitude, I felt great and had 2 great work outs. Mu conclusion: the sky is not falling. I was entered in to the 1.2mi swim race on Saturday ... which was cancelled.

Air quality was fine for a race. I know, I was there. My $$ is gone. I will no longer do any races with this company.

I'm not mad, but slightly frustrated. Oh well, life goes on. I learned my lesson.

Re: Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled, no refunds [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]

Aug 27, 13 21:40

Post #320 of 413 (5829 views)

>>>
Like worker's comp insurance so that if my employee gets injured when base jumping on the weekend (absolutely nothing to do with his job) I am able to have his wages paid to him even though he is no longer able to work.
>>

if you allow an employee to prevail with a work comp claim for after-hours injuries, you sir are an idiot.

>>

RayGovett
Hughson CA
Be Prepared-- Strike Swiftly -- Who Dares Wins- Without warning-"it will be hard. I can do it"

Re: Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled, no refunds [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]

Aug 27, 13 22:02

Post #321 of 413 (5813 views)

h2ofun wrote:

Dan, I know the RD of BigBlue personally, and he is a great guy!!

I was wondering when someone was going to stand up for him! I don't know him that well but he does indeed seem like a great guy. Let's give him a break. His response isn't that bad and the races he puts on are great when they're not on the edge of one of the largest California wildfires in history.

Re: Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled, no refunds [triwes] [ In reply to ]

Aug 27, 13 22:02

Post #322 of 413 (5813 views)

triwes wrote:

I was in Tahoe over this past weekend, from Arizona. I did a tempo run (10am) on Saturday and felt great. Did a 1.2mi swim (11am) on Sunday morning. Other than the altitude, I felt great and had 2 great work outs. Mu conclusion: the sky is not falling. I was entered in to the 1.2mi swim race on Saturday ... which was cancelled.

Air quality was fine for a race. I know, I was there. My $$ is gone. I will no longer do any races with this company.

I'm not mad, but slightly frustrated. Oh well, life goes on. I learned my lesson.

This is what's really sad. The air quality was crappy but good enough to race. I did the Iron-distance Expedition Man on Saturday and while the air was not optimal it did not affect me in a very significant way. That race was at Zephyr Cove, which I believe is close to where the Lake Tahoe Tri was supposed to take place. I followed the air index closely and it clearly stated that the air quality was not optimal but that it was fine as long as you didn't have any pre-existing respiratory issues.

Granted the smoke in the air looked awful, which gave the perception of a completely unsafe environment but it was definitely safe enough to race. Not sure why the RD of your race had to be so conservative in such circumstances. BTW, the Expedition Man RD offered you guys 50% entry into the Full or Half IM's on Saturday, but I don't know if you guys knew by then that your event was cancelled. In any case the whole situation with this race all-around sucks.

------------------
http://dontletitdefeatyou.blogspot.com

Re: Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled, no refunds [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]

Aug 27, 13 22:30

Post #323 of 413 (5791 views)

So...

You accepted my apology (I read the original post), chewed me out for taking a sideways swipe in general frustration, then deleted the response?

I agree, the bizarre meter just went to 11.

John

Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

Re: Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled, no refunds [Slowman] [ In reply to ]

Aug 27, 13 22:53

Post #324 of 413 (5784 views)

Slowman wrote:

when i hear you reference a "poor business model" i guess what you're saying is that the entire industry is engaged in one giant poor business model. is that what you mean? because, to my thinking, there is no such thing a giant industry business model. there's just every RD and his own business model, which is sound or it's not. so when you say "poor business model" it sounds to me like a direct indictment of the RD in question. that's how i've been interpreting you.

And I believe that is where our communication is breaking down. Despite me saying several times now I am not criticizing this RD, you still continue to "interpret" my posts as such. I can't be any more direct than to say "I'm not criticizing him."

My original post was in regards to another post that indicated it is the consumers' responsibility to support what may be a poor business model. My response was towards the macro side of how free markets work. It was NOT meant specifically towards this case.

As I stated, I am conflicted in regards to this particular matter. I can see both sides of the argument and both positions have validity to them.

The RD is clearly under no legal obligation to provide refunds or deferred entries. Ethical obligation? Debatable, but from what I have read, I don't believe he has acted unethically. Conversely, participants should understand that much of their entry fees are sunk costs that cannot be recovered at this time.

IN THIS CASE, it is an overall crappy situation with no definitive "right" answer.

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Re: Lake Tahoe Triathlon cancelled, no refunds [ In reply to ]

Aug 27, 13 23:08

Post #325 of 413 (5777 views)

I was pretty disappointed the race was cancelled on Sunday. The air quality certainly wasn't bad enough to stop myself and a friend from doing the Oly course (plus some) on Sunday in lieu of the race. Credit towards another race next season would've been better PR than a 25% refund token gesture.

Last edited by: onthebass: Aug 27, 13 23:09

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