finally--someone who actually knows what the real business world is!

+1

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Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.

Agreed. Without satisfied customers a business will fail.

If you're having race problems, I feel bad for you, son.
I got 99 problems, but a race ain't one.
Hit me.

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float , hammer , and jog

No not because I am cheap. Because people haven't demonstrated there's a market for this by paying extra. It would be interesting to see what the rate of people purchasing the insurance through active is, but probably not pertinent to the present discussion as that's for individual coverage rather than an event. There's been anecdotal evidence presented of races giving refunds/ credits to be sure, but I bet they still had contracts stipulating they didn't have to. I'm not talking about a one-off in a whole series. If there's really a market for this (total refunds) why isn't there a race series providing it? Why doesn't HITS or Challenge come out and say "We will completely refund your entry fee in the event that a race is cancelled?" Caveat emptor. I don't think RDs in this situation have to do anything. If they want to it'll give me a warm feeling, but I'm not going to pull out the long knives if they don't.

Additionally for all the teeth gnashing the RD in the OP did offer a 25% discount. Maybe that doesn't satisfy someone's desire for a pound of flesh, but that's still above what he was obligated to do.

As for IMLT, at least part of that backlash will be just it's WTC.

"Dan, please go back and re-read my posts."

i did better than read your posts. i QUOTED your posts in my post. if you'd like to rethink, recast, retract, what you wrote, that i quoted, i salute you taking a second look at the situation. but i certainly don't see how i lifted your quotes out of context. they seemed quite clearly stated to me.

"You have written many times about WTC's policies for cancellation on the racers' part (injury, sickness, life circumstances). IMO, this is all part of the same conversation."

i don't think it's in any way the same situation. in the one case, the entire race is ruined. i would foursquare stand behind WTC if it chose not to reimburse racers for what amounts to an RD's force majeure.

but in the case of an individual's need to cancel, that's 1 in 2000, not 2000 in 2000. further, i'm not even saying there should be a refund, rather, a transfer policy. WTC keeps its entry fee, and actually earns beyond that, because it makes a vig off the transfer. the two cases are not in the least similar.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"Accept not being satisfied if you want to support new, fledgling companies that get hammered by things like the RIM fire. If you do and bad things happen to that company, then I guess you get what you signed up for."

you're talking to the wrong guy. when i started triathlons we leaned our bikes up against trees. if it were not for RDs putting themselves out there, risking, building, we'd have no sport. i love new, fledgling companies. i go out and look for them, so that i can specifically enter their races. god bless 'em.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Haven't read the whole thread yet, but this is TWICE that you have equated 25% of $225 to $20, when the true amount is $56.25, so you're off by about 281%. No wonder you don't get it.

Dan, again you are interpreting my posts to indicate a position where I am criticizing this RD. I am not. In fact, the part of my post you quoted clearly states that.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Deflection again. I feel like a broken record.

25% off of another race after an athlete paid in full for a cancelled event, that's the topic.

I think that's what a lot of people are, in fact, saying. They understand that the policy might be reasonable under these circumstances. And that it is exactly what they signed up for.

Thanks...I caught this, too, but was trying to catch up on the 12 pages so you were able to beat me to it! ;)

On contraire--I'm talking to exactly the right guy--you Dan!

I'm with you on this about supporting the brave folks that are building our sport (like Rappstar for instance) Dan (and I do the same), but my guess is that you are not the average traithlete--not even close. The average consumer of our sport's product is not trying to build the sport. they are working hard to make a dollar and it hurts to spend $225 to do a triathlon. And then when the people they paid their hard earned dollars says too bad--race is off, no money back--is it a surprise that as customers they are dissatisfied? I mean really--is this honestly a surprise to you? I do think the average triathlete does expect when he pays $225 to race a triathlon that he will get to race a triathlon....

Just seems pretty reasonable when you think about our world today. I mean we have syrians and the tea-party lunnies....what's so extreme about expecting to get what you paid for? I mean, it may be rose-colored, but it seems pretty reasonable as an expectation don't you think?

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Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.

very seriously, these races are put on without any insurance for these types of situations? if it is as rare as people say then the insurance should not be horrendous for it - clearly there is a market that should be tapped!

I would bet it turns out to be more like a $1 per person additional fee

I'm cool with that--and I do the same...I actually donate a lot to this sport and sponsor a bunch of races. what I'm saying is that it's reasonable for folks who spend a lot of money to race a triathlon to actually expect to race. they may not get the new company/support a new biz/movement thing and they may just actually want to get what they paid for....and when they don't, if you want to be an enduring business, you should uphold your promise and refund them the money or ask for their patience and give them 100% of what they paid in new opportunities to race.....

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Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.

when i hear you reference a "poor business model" i guess what you're saying is that the entire industry is engaged in one giant poor business model. is that what you mean? because, to my thinking, there is no such thing a giant industry business model. there's just every RD and his own business model, which is sound or it's not. so when you say "poor business model" it sounds to me like a direct indictment of the RD in question. that's how i've been interpreting you.

however, if you are saying that there is a business practice that is common to RDs that you find onerous, fine. is that what you're saying? you can argue that point and i won't take it as a critique of this particular RD. i just disagree that this is a case of mass bad ethics on the part of RDs. rather, i think it's the only workable way that 1200 RDs in the united states - most of them very small - can survive a catastrophic loss.

if there was a way that an RD could, with very little financial downside, treat a thousand customers well, give them refunds, i would say that it WOULD be a onerous practice to refuse refunds to these customers. (and that's why i've been on WTC's case, and the entire industry's case, about a bad practice that is very easily rectifiable.)

if you are saying that the entire industry needs a new model, and you think it's that simple, then this is a perfect entre for you to do for a business what you love as a hobby.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"And then when the people they paid their hard earned dollars says too bad--race is off, no money back--is it a surprise that as customers they are dissatisfied?"

i don't think most of these people are dissatisfied. but for those who are, no, it's not a surprise. anymore than those who complain about all the drafting - yet enter the same race year after year; and those who complain about not enough aid stations, yet never volunteer at races; and those who complain about the penalty they got, yet have never read the rules.

that said, i think most people are reasonable, they do understand, they do live in the real world, they understand that bad things happen to good people and sometimes it's nobody's fault. i think that's expressed in the comments in this thread. most people do read the rules, they have volunteered, they do choose wisely, and they do understand that when races get cancelled for circumstances beyond the RD's control, we all suck it up. even those who have complained in this thread, i think once they see what sort of up-front costs RDs must pay to produce a race, and that doesn't include their own personal bills during the entire time they're working to produce the race, they understand that it's got to be a shared loss.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"very seriously, these races are put on without any insurance for these types of situations?"

maybe so. maybe i'll even make a phone call or 2.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Being that I'm tapering for Hy-Vee, my mind is going lots of places and it's been giving me lots of time today to think more about the situation. And there will be lots of assumptions and random numbers put out here. If that bugs you, it might be best to skip this post...

The interesting thing about race directing is 60-70% of the costs are likely sunk and fixed. Police, barricades, insurance. These are likely the bigger costs for events. No matter if the event has 100 people or 1,000, these costs will not vary much.

Shirts, swag, food, and timing are very likely sunk costs, but they aren't fixed. Figure $20/participant.

Let's say you have a 400 person event at $100 a person. That's 40k revenue. Maybe the police, barricades, insurance, tents, transition racks, and whatever else comes to $25k. I don't put on tris, but who knows what the actual number is.

$20 per person for 400 participants for the variable costs is $8k. So the total costs for the event are $33k, making the profit $7k. Is that likely? I have no idea, and that really isn't the point right now.

Let's say the event gets canceled, like this. I'll throw two scenarios out: 1. The race director says, sorry, tough shit, like they can legally do. 2. The race director rolls over the entry fee.

Situation 1. Race director still makes the profit of $7k for this event. 25% of these people never run a race again from this company. Maybe they do 2 races from the company each year. That's $300 revenue, but $260 profit that the RD loses each year. Why $260? 100*260 = 26k each year that the RD loses. There fixed costs don't change, so we are only concerned with the variable costs.

Situation 2. Race director rolls over the registrations. Maybe 75% of the entrants use it, the other 25% forget. He gets another 100 to pay the entry fee, making total revenue of $15k. Expenses are still $33k, so he loses $18k this year. Yet, the $7k help offset this and he didn't piss of 25% of his consumer base.

Yes, yes, it's all a bunch of numbers thrown together. Which would an RD prefer, though, for long term race growth? A tri race director could likely put in the correct numbers to make it more accurate, but I'm still guessing situation 2 would be better.

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speedySTATES

Now you're just being irrational. How do you expect these RD's to develop their race series into a multi-billion dollar corporation? I mean, if that's not the goal, what's the point?

yeah, you're right, what was i thinking?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Randy, Randy. You've hurt my feelings. I can't believe you don't remember when you, Anders, and I would ride the Costa Brava together. Good times, good riding, and Anders a college freshman training for an IM while on spring break.

You and I have much in common. One of these is that we choose to pursue triathlon as a lifestyle. I chose to start a triathlon for charity and then a Gran Fondo in western Maryland because I was passionate about the sport and thought the terrain so good and unique that other triathletes would want to experience it. The final version of my producing this triathlon is in two weeks. I have very happy customers at my event, but I keep registration costs as low as possible so the event does not have the cash to issue refunds if the event were to be canceled due to forces outside of my control in the next two weeks. Apparently that means my customer service is poor or I run a "shitty car service".

Is Anders still at it all these years later?

For one, if you want to be taken seriously, then you have to use correct numbers. Equating 25% of $225 to $20 makes it look like you didn't do your homework.

Second, you registered for the race knowing what the refund policy was.

Third, at least as is implied by your posts, you think that *YOU* are entitled to a free race entry, for good will. But as others have pointed out, while your *one* free race entry (you special snowflake, you) would likely be no problem for the RD to absorb, to be fair, the RD must offer that to everyone, which is a helluva a lot more money that he probably doesn't have (see other posts about sunk costs). You seem to make a bunch of assumptions as to what's on the ledger books, which I would bet you really have no idea what the true costs are and what had/had not been spent.

Fourth, a 25% discount to another race (and your particular income is irrelevant--if you're so poor, maybe don't enter so many races) is more than the RD was obligated to. At least he offered something.

and fifth....triathlon in the U.S. continues to grow, and individuals entering next year may or may not know about what you are considering a poor return on your investment, or don't care, or think that the RD offered more than you contracted for (no refund)....and unless the RD gets a resounding bad review on this and all his other races, I bet your one rant isn't going to kill his race next year nor break his heart.

It is a very rare occurrence and response would be dependent on a lot of things. So, I don't think there is a standard. Primarily it depends on the time of cancellation.

If the cancelation is well in advance (permits can't get issued, bridge construction makes course untenable) then a significant refund would be standard as most event expenses have yet to occur. If the cancelation occurs shortly before or during the event, I would think standard would be for little refund.

If the company puts on a lot of races then I would expect that a free entry to another race would be the standard. If a company puts on few races then that door is closed both practically and financially.

If the company is WTC with deep pockets (due to above market rate pricing and large number of total registrations) and exceptionally high margins (presumably) and an existing PR problem (is there enough WTC bashing on this forum), then I would wager on a good package, either a significant percentage refund of free entry to another event.

Finally, a case study. KNY, are these numbers realistic? Also, can anyone say how much insurance for this type of eventuality would raise fees? If we are talking $5-$10 bucks per participant, then I'm really sorry but there is absolutely no excuse why RD's should not be covered. Can anyone comment on the cost of insurance? If it's available and it's not horrendously expensive then I believe the argument should be pretty much over...

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------------------
http://dontletitdefeatyou.blogspot.com

It appears the ITU requires event cancellation insurance of event promoters.

Since you made the claim that insurers would not pay claims for event cancellation (of some sort), perhaps you could rethink your statement in the context of the current cancellation.

Perhaps you or some race directors could contact the ITU and inquire about the cancellation insurance requirements.

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There is so much information on the internet and so few do a search to confirm their views.

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Event Cancellation Insurance:
There are a number of reasons that can lead to the postponement or cancellation of an event that are outside the planners control. Unforeseen circumstances such as severe weather conditions, local strikes, illness, damage to the venue, accidents or non-appearance of key individuals (especially in a wedding), are just a few of the myriad of possibilities. The Event Cancellation Insurance provides coverage for the loss of revenue or expenses due to the cancellation or postponement of an event. A Full Event Cancellation Policy may also cover loss of deposits been paid to vendors who fail to deliver the service, gifts, photography as well as any other additional expenses due to last minute replacement of vendors.

Full Event Cancellation/Postponement
If you face a necessary cancellation or postponement of your event due to a covered reason, Markel’s Special Event Cancellation/Postponement Insurance policy will provide reimbursement for all deposits forfeited and other charges paid or contracted to be paid by the insured or the honoree for transport, catering services, property and equipment rentals, hall and location rentals, accommodations (including travel arrangements and accommodations for a honeymoon, if applicable), special attire, special jewelry, flowers, event photographs and event videos, and entertainment expenses, because of a necessary cancellation or postponement of the event, including a cancellation or postponement resulting from withdrawal of leave.

Because event cancellation policies are often non-standard (that is, not simply form policies), many common exclusions can be re-worded or eliminated, with or without an additional premium. For instance, although some event cancellation policies contain exclusions for weather-related cancellations and postponements, such exclusions are commonly absent from event cancellation policies and can often be narrowed or eliminated through negotiation.
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Bundle event cancelation with all the other insurance and it is really cheap.

Learn to search.