So because YOU are cheap and YOU would rather role (sic) the dice, everyone should think similarly? I don't follow that logic.....

As for your "magical" race series, to e have been plenty of examples listed on this thread alone of RD's doing exactly what you ask.

And the reality is that for the support here for this RD, if WTC cancels IMLT, watch out for the backlash against them.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Current technology is insufficient.

I think it is EXTREMELY REASONABLE to believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.

Where exactly does a small RD come up with the $ to offer 100% refund or rain check?? Where would your friends get that $??
Maybe your multi-billion dollar corporations (nice back-door brag, btw) can afford a write-off like that every now and again, but it's a game-ender for a small organization.
Which is why they don't do it - they cannot afford to, and continue to exist to provide those services in the future.

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float , hammer , and jog

You're in the juice aren't you?

Not sure what you mean?

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Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.

"The consumer should not be the one responsible to support a poor business model. Why are the racers the ones who need to support a RD who cannot adequately cover his expenses?"

i can't decide if you're just trolling, or if you're really serious. but i'll assume - for one post, so that i'm not too big a fool if you are just trolling - that you actually believe what you just wrote.

"I am vacillating back and forth on which I feel is correct. But the above post makes no sense from a business perspective. The RD is responsible for his own fate, not the racers."

what happened here is, basically, a race director's version of force majeure. insurance companies won't pay if you suffer a loss because of an act of war. it's not that insurance companies have a bad business model. it's not because they can't adequately cover their expenses. it's not because they are trying to avoid responsibilities for their own fate. insurance companies know that war exists. it is a given that in an act of war, if you suffer a loss, even if you paid your premiums, you aren't entitled to ANY payout.

now, this isn't a perfect analogy, but, the reason there's always a force majeure clause in insurance contracts is that an insurance company can't financially survive a mass attack, and an insurance company can't survive the arbitrary decision by a political figure to go to war and fundamentally alter the actuarial data upon which an insurance company relies when setting rates. likewise, an RD can charge a fee based on what happens when things go more or less as planned. but if a "bomb" explodes on the race course, or a political figure arbitrarily decides to "go to war" with the race and cancel permits, and this happens after a lot of expenses have been rung up by the RD, if we force the RD basically out of business because we want him to indemnify 1000 people x $150 or whatever, then, fine, but go find something else to do with your spare time, because we won't be having any races to enter at all.

the RD did not start the rim fire. he knew that a fire might happen. he knew that an earthquake might happen. but we all - the RD and all of us who enter - are making the wager that these things won't happen. but if something like this does happen, in a way we're all insuring the RD. we're saying that we the contestants can survive a hundred dollar, couple of hundred dollar, loss, but that we all know the RD can't survive the entire loss. he can't indemnify us entirely.

if that's not good enough for you - if this business model just is a problem for you - then you have options: only enter races where you're guaranteed a full refund in case of race cancellation; or only enter races where race insurance is offered to you by the RD or his race registration company. me, i'm willing to take a risk that i might pay an entry free and lose it all. that almost never happens. it's never happened to me, in 40 years of entering races such as this. but it does happen sometimes, and if that does happen to me then, in the aggregate, over my lifetime, i've fared pretty well.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I dunno, it seems to me if you were any good at it, one of those multi-billion dollar corps would have kept you around...

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

I pay the late sign up fee. I will pay the active fee if available. If RDs have the opportunity to insure themselves to the benefit of the consumer, and chose not to, it's 100% their fault.

What are you willing to pay when you go out to eat to ensure you like what you ordered. I bring this up because generally when you go out to eat and do not like your meal, you don't end up paying for it. That's called the cost of doing business. Would you be offended if your server said "just so you know, if you do not enjoy this steak, we will happily refund you 25% of the price". You think race margins are tight, you should see some restaurant chains P&Ls.

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http://www.TriScottsdale.org

I'm only familiar with bike races but if this happened at a bike race, the promoter would have already paid for everything except the officials. They have to reserve everything else in advance including use permits for the route, extra police required by local jurisdictions, portapotties, etc. And most bike race promoters are lucky if they are in the black, in spite of what most people's opinion is.

Just out of curiosity, how often do you go out to eat and refuse to pay for your meal because you don't like it?

Not trying to back door brag (but focusing on the customer is the key to building a big, enduring business) but I honestly think that if you don't plan for stuff like this to happen you should go out of business. I've always believed the customer is king. I've started a couple of businesses where we didn't plan appropriately for unknowns and we paid the price (My falult and I loss a ton of money as a result--and I try to avoid that mistake with my new ventures).

I truly believe you need to meet the reasonable expectations of a customer or you should not be in business. If this small RD can't deliver on what he promised--which is a trIathlon (even if it's a year or two later), he should go out of business.

The reason that company's survive is that they meet the expectations of their customer group at a reasonable cost over time. It's reasonable for a triathlete who pays a big sum of money to race in a triathlon to expect to get to race in a triathlon. If you're selling this you need to deliver, consistently. Or else, you won't be a big business or any business at all.

Sorry, that's the way it works!

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Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.

Right-o. But everyone seems to think this is like returning a shirt that doesn't fit right and everyone is back where they started less any shipping costs. Not even close. What about the 1000 shirts sitting in my garage? And the 100 cases of bananas and the 4000 pounds of ice? At least a company with a series of races can ship the gatorade and 2000 space blankets off to the next one. For others, most of it is lost, lost, lost.

Dan, please go back and re-read my posts. As I stated, I am not suggesting that the RD is in the wrong in this case. What I am pointing out is that, in a free market economy, it is not the consumers' responsibility to subsidize what could arguably be described as a poor business model.

If the market demands "reimbursement protection", than that is what it will demand (assuming that demand becomes substantial enough to warrant a market shift).

You have written many times about WTC's policies for cancellation on the racers' part (injury, sickness, life circumstances). IMO, this is all part of the same conversation....how can we (as a community or consumer base) best protect ourselves against unforeseen circumstances?

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Give me a break, Randy. Event promoters aren't your multi-billion dollar corporations. You should try putting on an event. When's the last time you've raced a non-WTC triathlon? One of the Piranha Sports series in your neck of the woods?

Hey Dev--that seems like a comment way below your reputation. We/I sold both of them to motivated buyers and part of the reason was I wanted to be less obligated by day to day obligations. I've been blessed to pursue a more interesting and fluid business situation since.

I'm curious--why the potshot? You've always seemed like a reasonable sort in the past....

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Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.

Just a question for you. In most cases in tri industry, in this case, what has been the standard response when event gets cancelled?


Has it been "X% off next year"?

Free entry for future event?

Maybe I just dont pay attention, but it seems I've seen comped entries as te response,but you make it seem like that cant happen financially.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Good points Dan!

But buyer beware.

Make sure you buy from people who can back up what they promise if you expect to be satisfied as a customer.

Accept not being satisfied if you want to support new, fledgling companies that get hammered by things like the RIM fire. If you do and bad things happen to that company, then I guess you get what you signed up for.

From a businessman leader perspective what kinda biz do you want to build? One that meets reasonable customer expectations as much as you can or one that gets taken out by a bit of bad luck?

I know in new biz situations it's not always a luxury you have. sometimes you have to take the risk. But I'm convinced that you should only try to build businesses that you think can endure BY meeting customer expectations--not by not meeting them whern things don't work out.....

Dan, your history as a businessman is certainly support of that hypothesis...because you deliver on what you promise....

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Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.

But that's your mistake - most of these RD's are NOT trying to build big, enduring businesses. They just want to put on a race, or a few.
And maybe, maybe, make a few bucks, or at least, not lose too many.

IF all the smaller (hint, that'd be pretty much ALL of them, other than M.Dot. I know you may not give a rats ass about those, being the M.Dot lemming that you are, but those are all I race these days) RD's had to risk going out of business for any random act of nature, then why would ANYBODY, EVER put on a race??

You just don't get that part. Which is not at all surprising, for somebody ensconced in the ivory towers of multi-billion $ companies.

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float , hammer , and jog

Speaking of the Lake Tahoe smoke. The smoke is not clearing. the Rim Fire still rages out of control. Check for yourself with the webcams at the ski resorts like Squaw Valley, Alpine Meadows, Northstar, Tahoe TV, Caltrans and others.
.

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TahoeTruckeeOutdoor.com
IMTahoeLive.com

Not sure what your post means or who you are.

But I race 10-12 non WTC events each year and they always seem to deliver. I'm good friends with Chuck Sellers, Midge Kerr and Steve Delmonte who all put on a bunch of races and they always seem to take care of their customers (and they are not mult-billion dollar corps)--but we customers like them because they deliver.

I also like the Pirahna guys as well (although I think they are bit overpriced) but their customer service is fantastic.....

I'm not a race director so why should i put on an event? I can't cook (so I don't run a restaurant). I can't build a car (so I don't run a car company)....etc., etc., etc....


Are you saying I only have the right to complain about a shitty car service if I run a car service myself?

what's your point?

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Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.

No, no, no, that's THEIR mistake. All they have to do is fully refund the customer, despite their financials, when the freak 100-year storm hits and they will be hanging out on Jay Z's yacht in just a few short years. RD's live large.

I have been running restaurants for 15+ years. This happens daily. Someone mentioned its not like returning a T shirt. Would you buy a T shirt if the return policy was 25%? When the power to my restaurant gets knocked our at 7:30pm on a Friday night do I tell my guests they still need to pay for what they ordered. Even tho I can't finish cooking it? No. I eat the cost. I lose thousands of dollars. And I'll lose even more because not only will I give the guests in my building at the time something (gift card, free app or dessert), I will also keep an employee outside giving away those same things to people who showed up to dine and couldn't. To succeed you need to exceed.

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http://www.TriScottsdale.org

what's an ivory tower? My current biz has just 35 employees....I've had 4 businesses go out of business already because we didn't plan well....

Meet customer expectations if you want to survive.

Is this a hard thing to understand?

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Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.

I'd say the smaller your biz is and the tighter your margins are, the more importance customer service actuall becomes. (I live it every day). It sounds like there is no rainy day funds for what is likely a *freak* occurance,with these types of companies. Obviously because it happens so infrequently, it seems to be accepted/ok'd/forgiven. Obviously if it became a norm,would it then become a problem.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

It is not clear if you are saying that a policy covering this event would not have been written or that the specific circumstances would not have been covered.

In the first case: Lloyd's will write a policy for most anything. Has this race promoter or any triathlon promoter asked for a quote and been refused?

In the second case: Would the policy decline payment in this particular set of circumstances?

Presenting guesses as facts in your argument is poor form.

so much certainty based on so much uncertainty.