My cycling club has had to cancel races, including once the day of the event (with 450 people there) due to a weather emergency and once *during an event* (with "only" 100 people affected) due to Secret Service/police activity. In both cases we offered refunds but when doing so pointed out that we had already incurred a lot of costs, so we also encouraged people to not ask for their refunds. In both cases we came out about even.


But we're a nonprofit group and we're not out to make a buck. If I was a for-profit promoter I'd probably make an estimate of my real costs and return the balance, explaining why.

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http://www.jt10000.com/

Your last sentence in the comment above is exactly what I think the Lake Tahoe Triathlon missed. Participants have obviously walked away with a feeling that the company simply cancelled and went on their merry way. Is it too much to explain in a logical amount of detail how the 25% represents the best they can do for the participant? Or why an entry to a future race is not feasible? I don't think so. Like you said good faith (and good communication) go a long ways. I think this was lacking in this situation.

BTW, it would be a real shame if you got out of the RD business. From what I have heard you do a 1st rate job on your races. Sorry if my comments (from my comfortable spectator point of view) came accross as offensive to you. That was not my intention.

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http://dontletitdefeatyou.blogspot.com

"All I am asking for as a consumer is do what's right and have good communication."

i understand. but i was not writing to you, rather to one of the folks who took your ball and ran with it, probably a little farther than you wanted to run. (contact the attorney general?) it is a huge blow for an RD to have to cancel his race.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

My philosophy is, it sucks, but put your big boy pants on and get over it. I had it happen to me about a month ago. I drove 2 hours away and registered day of, an hour before the race started, a huge storm blew in and put parts of the town and most of the course underwater in about 20 minutes. They cancelled the race and the check I just wrote went to the promoter. I didn't even get a bike rag, I mean t-shirt. I guess I could have gone up and asked for my check back, but I had already signed the waiver. My wife wasn't particularly happy but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

The promoter said they would try to reschedule. I don't think it will happen for a number of reasons that are beyond the scope of this example. I don't blame him, and last time I checked he has no control over the weather. He was visibly upset he had to cancel the race. The race is in the town where I grew up so I do this promoter's Turkey Trot every year and will again this year.

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Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook

And finishers ribbons without typos.

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...rch_string=;#4521136

To date, you have used ST exclusively to loudly bitch about races falling short of your expectations.

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float , hammer , and jog

Dan, I know the RD of BigBlue personally, and he is a great guy!!

Just too bad a few, and I saw a few folks who think they are special and the contract they signed they want to ignore, can take the fun out of it for so many RD's.

Yep, I have NO desire to put a race on again because of these few that no matter what you do, they bitch about the water being wet.


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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Any one in Tahoe this week? What are the air quality conditions like?

Should I be worried about a labor day weekend trip?

Go to: http://airnow.gov/..._city&cityid=121

This is for the Reno-Sparks area but I think it is the same for all of the Lake Tahoe area (CA and NV). The air quality is very crappy. When I raced on Saturday the air quality was only bad for sensitive groups but it still looked awful. It sounds like it is worse now. It was a real shame since you really couldn't see any of the awesome scenery of the Tahoe area. The fire feeding this muck is the Yosemite fire and that sucker is huge. I would say conditions may still be very smoky for your Labor Day trip.

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http://dontletitdefeatyou.blogspot.com

The contract is pretty one-sided. If you can't deal with complaints about that, then yes, you shouldn't put on races. Glad you got out.

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http://www.jt10000.com/

Personal attacks are not necessary.

I guess you were writing to me.

The attorney general's office has a staff that handles consumer complaints. It seems a more reasonable place than this forum to air the complaint.

There are a lot of assumptions by those who support the event promoter:

1) That the contract is valid.

2) That the contract is being followed by the event promoter.

3) That the race promoter is entitled to a profit.

4) and the big one Internet forums settle legal disputes.

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We have courts. Might as well use them to settle these issues.

If your attitude is "well you signed off so tough cookies", that's a pretty weak attitude

for a person in customer service. I'm just shocked they couldn't say "we have 5 race productions that we put on that you get choice of entry" in. But apparently that's not fiscally possible from what people say on here.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

It's not a personal attack, it's a statement of fact.

Here is your entire posting history:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...=Show+user%27s+posts

With the exception of a single, solitary post about Spesh's wind tunnel, you have posted exclusively to bitch about races you're dissatisfied with.

You're new here, so perhaps you weren't aware of this other thread, started specifically to provide you an appropriate venue to voice your concerns?
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=50;

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float , hammer , and jog

It is your opinion that I 'bitch' on this forum, and that's fine. I don't see how this has anything to do with the topic of the cancelled LTT race.

If I have plans to go to an outdoor concert and it's canceled because of inclement weather and the ticket is clear there will be no refunds should I be contacting my Attorney General?

The consumer should not be the one responsible to support a poor business model. Why are the racers the ones who need to support a RD who cannot adequately cover his expenses?

I can see both sides of this issue, and honestly, I am vacillating back and forth on which I feel is correct. But the above post makes no sense from a business perspective. The RD is responsible for his own fate, not the racers.

This is a basic tenet of a free market economy.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

It depends on what you want. Feel free to complain on the internet. I am sure there are people who will share your opinion.

On the other hand if is June and you are in Florida and the cause is chance of snow, you might want to do more than complain on the internet.

What if that isn't sustainable? People already complain that races are too much. It seems the choices are to raise prices to the point that cancellations like this can be covered in full or pay less and risk losing your money. So where are the premium races that guarantee refunds in the event of cancellation? Maybe the OP should have bought the insurance from active.com. The fact there aren't more races like that seems to indicate the market would pay less. Don't like it set up your own races. Maybe you'll drive everyone else to raise prices for better 'service.' Or maybe you'll lose money.

RDs if your barricade company bailed a week before your race, or days for that matter, would you use them again, knowing they kept your money and were not returning it, but would give you a 25% discount for your next race? Of course you wouldn't and you would find it totally unacceptable and look for recourse.

Look as an RD you are sure to have a race cancelled at some point. It's just the odds. My question is why havent you planned for it? Are you going to take a financial hit? Of course you are. That's called the cost of doing business, to take care of your guests. I say guests because that's what we are. We are guests at your event. Suck it up, offer a refund or free entry into one of your races within a year. Move on.

It's sad, but I usually don't sign up for races until the day before, for this very reason.

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http://www.TriScottsdale.org

So again, if it isn't sustainable, I am failing to see how it is the racers' responsibility to support it. If there is enough demand, something will replace it. If there isn't, the the racers will need to realize how that then impacts their "demand."

Again, I am not (yet) taking a position regarding the issue if full or higher-percentage refunds. A noted, I can see both sides of it, and there are strong merits on both sides.

Ultimately, I would like to see it become the "norm" that RD's have cancellation insurance. If it means a 10% higher race fee, i would have no objections. 20%? Dunno. But if it becomes the "norm", then the market will tell if it will bear it.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

How much are you willing to pay so that a RD can provide refunds or credits? Active charges $7 for event insurance I think and I don't know what that actually covers. So how much over current event prices will you pay? Ten percent premium? Twenty? People already bitch about $225 in this case. So let's say It goes up to $260. People would appear to prefer to gamble on whether a race will go off rather than pay extra. Except for a vociferous minority it would seem.

Bingo, the question should be is why were these folks so stupid to sign up for a race early, if for some reason they could not do it, from a canceled race or injury, love to spend their life bitching like it is someone
else's fault. At least one thing has always stayed the same of ST, so many personal attacks. (It is all over FB too, so I guess it is the nature of so many who love to be on the dark side)

BigBlue could have legally and technically offered nothing, which is what all folks signed as the contract when they signed up. I think them offering a 25% discount is way more than they have to.

I wonder if this smoke does not clear, and IMLT is impacted, what the bitching is going to sound like.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Responsibility? I pay entry fees because I want to race same as everyone else. I'm also cheap as I've never paid for the Active insurance when offered. This seems akin to health insurance - the only way we could cover the cost of insuring refunds in the case of total cancellations is to make everyone pay extra all the time so that when cancellations occur RDs can afford to give full refunds. For small companies with narrow margins that could be a substantial markup. I would rather role the dice than pay extra. I'm still waiting on someone to start a magical race series that will give full refunds. Let's see what kind of pricing that takes and how many people really want to pay the premium. My guess is everyone would still prefer to pay less, because bitching on the internet about not getting refunded is free as opposed to anteing up to cover refund costs.

fair comments but pretty narrowly focused from a guy as smart as you, Brian.

In real business, if you have a crappy rep you go outa biz pretty quick. If you promise a product and then don't deliver and don't refund post not delivering you have a crappy rep. contrast that to a biz that says, hey, it was outside our control but we're in it for the long haul...you can count on us...you get your money back and we'll eat it this time. We hope you recognize that we don't have to do this but we still will because it's you the customer that we are ultimately focused on.

That's the difference btw between a company like the WTC and the pissant little wannabes that put on this Tahoe race. Slam the WTC all you want but in my book they meet customer expectations and deliver what they promise. These losers in Tahoe did not and any right minded triathlerte should never enter one of their races again. However, go ahead if you want because you want to "man up"--whatever that is....

Look...I know it's a shit show to put on a triathlon--three of my best friends put on 8 each year. I know it sucks to get one of the worse fires in CA history and to have to cancel. But I think it is EXTREMELY REASONBLE as a consumer ot triathlon races to expect to get your money back or a 100% rain check in a situation like this.

In my opinion, as someone who has run several multi-billion dollar corporations, you have to take care of your customer. If you disagree, you must have no experience at managing a large, enduring business or you must fundamentally disagree with making cusomters happy.

Brian--you are a great coach for sure. don't reveal yourself out as an inexperienced and ineffective businessman....

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Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.

I took a look, and just for event cancellation coverage, it appears to be between $3-5 per $1000 of coverage. If you presume that the average cost per racer (They were very tiered according to relays, solo, and when you registered) was $150, and that the 4 races they put on had an average of 1500 people per race, you're looking at around $5000 for cancellation coverage only. (Now, before all the literalists take that and run it past the goal line, that was a very quick and dirty sampling of a couple of websites that didn't require much more than how many people and what state). That also did not include liability, or anything like that so the price may go up or down depending on how they had it structured.

I'm still interested in how the OP paid $225 for his race, as that is not listed as a price point for any event/any registration date on the page for LTT.

John

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