Me too. I would hate to see any of the branded IM races go draft legal. I would not feel safe.

Let me add to that by saying that those who think that part of the solution is to change the attitude of the athletes are wrong. In any group you will have those who follow the rules because of their good character and those who will break any rule if they can get an advantage unless they fear the chances and consequences of getting caught. Unfortunately we will never succeed in persuading everyone to follow the rules out of a sense of honour. The only solution to the drafting problem, if like me you want to preserve the no drafting rule, is to rigorously enforce the rule and to make the penalty meaningful. (I like the lap(s) of shame idea)

With respect to races like IMC where huge numbers of people come out of the water at the same time (1:07 - 1:20) you don't need to deal with every guy who has not complied perfectly with the rule. there are too many people on the course for that. But there is a significant difference betweeen long linesof people who are trying ot comply with the spirit of the rule and those who sit right on someones wheel for an extended time or worse (and more obvious) ride in large packs. I think if you deal with those guys (penalize them, the whole pack if it is a pack situation) you will have solved most of the problems.

The more room for the riders at any point on the course, the more strictly I would enforce the rule.

Does this then mean that the marshalls will be asked to make some judgement calls in enforcing the rule? Of course it does, but that's part of the job.

For the pros at the front end of the field, they only ride close together if they choose to, they have lots of room to spread out on the course. I would strictly enforce the letter of the rule for them.

One more thing, if a marshall pulls over and penalizes an entire pack, is it possible that some innocent rider that has just been overtaken by the pack will be unfairly penalized? Of course it is. Justice is never perfect. But if it means we catch 20 cheaters who are getting a huge advantage by riding in a pack, I am willing to take the chance that I and others may on rare occaisions be unfairly penalized. I am already penalized by the advantage they get from riding in a pack. I would prefer to have the pack penalized with me.

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Grant

It would probably be a mess with a 2000 person race though!

You know everyone says this( and a part of me agrees that it would, based on the bike handling skills of most triathletes), but there are all kinds of big charity group rides these days with thousands of riders and they can ride anyway they like, and the problems are minimal. Why would it be such a disaster in a triathlon?

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

You know everyone says this( and a part of me agrees that it would, based on the bike handling skills of most triathletes), but there are all kinds of big charity groups rides these days with thousands of riders and they can ride anyway they like, and the problems are minimal. Why would it be such a disaster in a triathlon?

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They're not races, though...and I hate it when people race me during those things :)

And everyone in an IM race, even the 16 hour finishers, are "racing"

Man, when I see them on TV, it looks more like war survival.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

1. Aero bars (though I'd hope they ban them for draft legal format)
2. It's a race, not a charity ride
3. They're triathletes. :p

I have been hit (ridden into from behind) during the Becel Ride for Heart in Toronto. It's a cool ride because they close the Gardiner and the Don to cars and let you ride on it, but DAMN - what a mess!

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<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
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As I keep saying Steve, the most vocal probably do not want to learn how to swim, which means they could not compete in
a draft legal race, they would be too far back. Just look what happened to some at the Olympics.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I think that is why the draft marshals should have helmet cams. When they show a card, make sure the camera can see it as well as the athlete. Link the penalty list to YouTube of the infraction. It would be hard to explain that away on a forum.

Start small, say just with the pro field. Head ref could review later to help improve/educate calls if needed.

I also think any arguing with or complaining, even talking about a penalty with a ref should be an instant DQ. That is total BS that a ref should not have to deal with. Announce at the meetings and guides that it is a DQ.

<< So, please, help me see the disconnect between what I say and do, since I am well known
for walking my talk.

the disconnect is that you say you don't go to races that are draftfests and don't consider Worlds to be just that.
I wasn't at Vancouver so I can't comment on that, but in the nearly 20 years of going to Worlds off an on, every single one that I have been too looked no different then any of the Ironman races that I have been too. The last one I went too was Honolulu and that was nothing more then one big long pace line, yet no drafting penalties were handed out.

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Mike Plumb, TriPower MultiSports
Professional Running, Cycling and Multisport Coaching, F.I.S.T. Certified
http://www.tripower.org

Look, Khai, I am just trying to toss out some ideas for a problem that looks to be completely intractable - and get's worse every year. It's the type of problem where ALL ideas need to be put on the table.

For this one, everyone predicts disaster, but, I don't think it would be that bad. Of course no aero bars and road(real) bikes only. Bummer, I guess, if you just bought a Cervelo P3C! :)

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Sweet- it would give me an excuse to race my RS!

:-)

Jodi

Steve, I'd LOVE to see a draft legal race or race series. I'd just need to know that all the participants aren't squirrels who might get me hurt or killed. A Cat system like road racing would go a long way towards that end, as would mandatory skills training prior to getting a cat 5 license. I don't think they do that anymore but when I got my Jr. license back in the day they made me go to a "learn to race" course before I got my license. Wavestarts based on category with the fastest going first would be a great thing to see.

Of course, this would mean that I'd need to get A LOT faster in the water, too...


But you should know me better than to suggest I'd just purchased a P3C... :p

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<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
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But you should know me better than to suggest I'd just purchased a P3C... :p

No, no. . not you. I was just speaking generally.

I still don't understand these people that there first real bike is a full blown TT/Tri rig!!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Again, I stated I have only been to 2 worlds. I heard there was drafting at Germany, I saw some, even yelled at one guy, but
nothing like I hear about races on ST. And NONE of them are 2 to 3000 people mass start races!!!
So, you are good enough to be up in front, and see it, I am just not that good. I go to the race to enjoy the success,
not to compete for a podium spot.

As I said, IF I were to go to Clearwater, or any race that I KNEW would be a draft fest, I sure would not come onto ST
after and bitch about it.

So let me try again. I do not knowingly signup for a race knowing if it is going to be a draft fest and then come back to ST and bitch.
After my first worlds, I stated on ST I was surprised to see the drafting. I think Mark told me yep, and either join it or do not worry
about competing.

So, I still think I am walking my talk. I have no issue with folks doing what ever race the want. BUT, to go to certain races which you KNOW
will be a draft fest, and then come on ST and bitch and blame the officials, no way. I still believe it starts with location, location, location.
But, no one ever wants to take personal ownership. It is always someone elses fault. Well, I have yet to see a person forced to sign up for a race.
I have yet to see a person forced to draft. But, more to the point, I have yet to see a person admit they were drafting, so how can folks bitch about something
no one does?

Now, if this is that big of a deal, why has USAT or NAS not make drafting a DQ?

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Is that your vanilla or, gulp, something else entirely?

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Forget speedwork. Speedwork is the icing on the cake and you don't have a cake yet. - MattinSF

Basically they have 9 tenants, live life to the fullest, do not turn the cheak, and embrace the 7 deadly since. - TheForge (on satanists)

"I cannot comment on the pro race, but can comment on the AG race and if you look you'll see a lot of splits with swims in the 64-67 range and bike rides around 5:16 ....backed up with blazing runs....of course you can back up those bike rides with blazing runs when you do 100 watts less than the guys dropping back and riding clean."

Dev, it's one thing to see a person drafting and calling them on it, it's a whole other thing to stare at splits from the results and call guys cheaters just because they are faster than you. If you dont know the person or there background you have no idea what kind of times they should be putting up.

Dallas, fair comment and for that reason, I did not name anyone, although I could have simply because I remember names on race numbers and saw what they were doing.

I should have just stuck to..."a bunch of guys that swam+T1 slower than Lakerfan and I blew by us in a 75-100 person peleton before Osoyoos with no intention of dropping back their 4 bike lengths". Both Lakerfan and I can attest to this.

Dev

That's my Jonny Cycles - a bike that was originally supposed to be done this past Spring to replace the boat anchor. Jon got slammed and kind of fell behind on his production schedule, so we're just starting the process now.

The timing is a little close to my Vanilla, assuming that Sacha is on schedule - but we'll see how that shakes down. At this point I wouldn't object if he needed to push out by 6-18 months...

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<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
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If you raced Vancouver and did not see drafting, then I don't know what drafting is. I have never seen so many people drafting in my life. You are either blind or choose to be that way.

I was there.. (had a shit swim)...

There were dudes in the swim range Dev mentions that only three weeks before in Spokane had pedestrian Half Iron run times (1,35-40) and ran 3.30 or better off the bike at IMC, that doesn't reconcile to me.

They were the same guys I saw drafting hard core on the out and back in Spoky..

What else can I say about IMC?

I rode through the field the whole day.. On Hwy 97 I was literally minutes up on folks who came through me awhile later in a pack..

Then, there is moto riding next to the pack doing nothing, saying nothing..

All of them fell apart on Richter naturally..

I saw people drafting up there..

I saw a guy get a penalty on the rollers and then he had the guts to argue it while I was trying to come through he and the official on the moto. He wouldn't get out of the way and I couldn't split the two, or pass on the right.. Nice.

I saw people getting desperate on the out & back section suck effing wheel because they had cracked.

Sorry for the sour grapes but drafting sucks, I'm tempted to pile on the swim yards this winter and only race Olympic Distance and Half Iron distance events where I'm pretty sure there is no drafting.

Fair enough Dev, I just know there were some very fast marathon guys there that dont swim /bike at the speed they run.

Although I think a 64-65min swim is smoking fast ;)

I saw you on McLean Creek, looking good.

Nice. What a terrible dilemma :)

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Forget speedwork. Speedwork is the icing on the cake and you don't have a cake yet. - MattinSF

Basically they have 9 tenants, live life to the fullest, do not turn the cheak, and embrace the 7 deadly since. - TheForge (on satanists)

I have a hard life. You know how it is...

---

<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
Get Fitter!
Proud member of the Smartasscrew, MONSTER CLUB
Get your FIX today?

Just talked to John and he told me all 40 units they have at IM Louisville
got taken in the first day of reg and had a long waiting list.

You could also strap the units on the pro bikes, and turn them on before they take off on the bike.

Yep, this would REALLY help give factual data as to what EACH racer really did on the bike,
every 6 seconds!!!

Now, would it not be cool to have units on all the pro bikes at Hawaii, with 6 second updates.


Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Yep, I saw NO drafting at Vancouver. What it like a 4 loop bike? And, I was in the second start because I just missed the swim.
So, I have no idea what happened as more folks got on the course, since I was on the run. But I am NOT suggesting there is no
drafting. I learned that from Germany. BUT, I am not bitching about it.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Steve,

read them both and the one thing that I take from both is that the combination of race director and race officials did a poor job. Now the situation you are talking about took place a long time ago and since then, officiating has come a long way as far as standards, training and empowerment. ITU has also come a long way over those years as well, except they still choose to take the easy way out, not officiate and change the sport into something it was not orginally. If you have ever seen the ITU manual for courses and set up, you know they are extremely detail oriented. ITU racing can be fun and exciting to watch and I guess you can still call it a triathlon because it involves swim, bike and run but to me, triathlon has always been basically an individual time trial from the word go and when it comes to Olympic distance or shorter, that means balls to the wall all out racing start to finish. Watching the Olympic triathlon, while it was very exciting to watch the way the run unfolded in the men's race, it was just plain sad to watch guys in the middle of the pack sitting up taking half as many pedal strokes as the guys in the front. I know it is still a tough ride to stay in the pack, especially the front pack in any ITU race let alone the Olympic race, but you can't tell me that each and every one of those guys were head down hammering at full speed for 40km. That's not how you win that style of race and it's also not how the sport was originally devised.

Off on a bit of a tangent, so back to the original problem. I think that it is going to take a combination of things to make drafting a thing of the past, especially in Ironman races.

1. smaller fields, I think even limiting it to 1500 starters would help
2. more officials on course that are given authority to write up rule infractions whenever and wherever they see them, which obviously isn't being done at this time
3. race directors removing themselves from the equation when it comes to officiating. (How many sports are there where the team owner is also in charge of officials?)
4. stricter penalties for drafting
5. making it socially unacceptable to draft. This means more people like the OP and Jim Vance calling others out on it when there is substantial evidence.

Face it, we are talking about two different kinds of people here. There are those that get caught in a position occassionally and work to get out of it, and then there are those that delibrately seek that position (drafting) and try to gain from it. While we were standing in line to get my GF signed up for IMC next year, the guy right behind me was telling his wife how he was going to race Canada next year. He said since his running was so bad, he was really going to work on his swim so that he could come out of the water in an hour and be around faster cyclists so that he could draft his way to a faster bike split around 5 hours, and then survive the run as best he could. I turned aorund and just gave him an ugly glare. There are people out there like that that just think it's alright to race that way because if the officials don't call it, there's no foul.
The smaller fields thing, that is a hard sell, race directors want to obviously maximize profits so they'll put as many people out there as they think they can process or handle.
More officials? That is always a problem because there just aren't enough people willing to give up a weekend to get certified and then work the odd race. I'm not trying to have a holier then thou attitude, but even when I was racing pro, I took the time to as Dave (H2O) says, walk the walk, I got certified as an official and worked a couple of races per year because I hated drafting and wanted to do something about it.
Stricter penalties is tough but doable. If enough people contacted their regional rep (USAT) and voiced a concern about wanting to increase the time penalties, it could then be put on the agenda at a board meeting.

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Mike Plumb, TriPower MultiSports
Professional Running, Cycling and Multisport Coaching, F.I.S.T. Certified
http://www.tripower.org