Well this certainly calls a spade a spade....surprising that this thing happens at the pro level--I don't have any reason to discount Scott's comments--but it's surprising that it happens in a race of this magnitude--I'd think there would be some self-policing and that reputations would be known and Jimmy and his team would look specifically for it. With so few pros and with them so close together this would seem to me to be a very doable task....

Nice race Scott!

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Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.

Congratulations on a clean race. If what you wrote is actual facts then it is a shame and par with cheating by using drugs.I can not imagine what kind of drafting is going on on flatter courses.
This whole Ironman thing became way commercialized and more and more looks like a big circus every passing year any way.

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I see obsessed people.

Congratulations on riding a clean race.

>>2nd place finisher Bernhard Hiebl (who took cheating to a new level) as he was sucking a major draft, sitting right on the wheel of the guy ahead of him.<<

Maybe he thought he was in another ITU race?

clm

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

great job scott

great job at the race!!!! and i want to support you in some of your comments. Unfortunutly, the race had a lot of guy at the same level and it bunch up quickly... it wasnt legal for a big part of it and the official gived many warning but no 4min penality like i do beleive it should have been.

ultimitely, it s our fault as professional and attitude need to change... i was very desappointed in the behavior on many of the guys yesturday..... and happy Rhodesy won the race in a clean way....

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

180km is a looooong way,...there's tonnes of road for 15 riders to fill. I personally believe that biking in a long pack is inexcusable,...even at the pro-level. That being said,...if the draft marshal isn't willing to give draft penalties,...then that sends the message to the riders that everything is okay.

The draft marshal who was on the course, was the same one who briefed us at the pro-meeting. He gave us a hard talk saying, that he's going to be out there, looking for drafting, and will call us on it. "Don't try to argue with me" he said,...he's an English teacher, who's fluent in French, German, Spanish etc.,...he'll find a language to make sure you understand!!!! Well, the talk at the pro-meeting was inversely proportional to how he governed and policed the course. If he's not willing to give penalties, then what incentive is there to ride any further apart than the who's guy sucking your wheel????!!!!

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http://www.bikeforest.com/scott

   
First penalty 1 mile run...second penalty, 2 more miles...3 extra miles will scare anyone from drafting :-). Congrats on a great race!

Dev

<replying to you because Scott deleted his post>

Scott, it's too bad you deleted your initial post, although I suppose I understand why you did. What you said was 100% truth however. Being in a vehicle that leapfrogged the leaders all day, I got the opportunity to see the top men and women for pretty much the whole bike. There was some clean riding by certain individuals, but there was a LOT of drafting going on as well. Not so much among the ladies, but the men's field was pretty bad.

Props to some of the pros who rode clean: (NB - exclusion from this list does not necessarily mean that a given pro was drafting his ass off - it is by no means exhaustive and sometimes I do forget to mention people as well. Having said that, certain pros were most assuredly left off on purpose.)

Marky V (off the front all day, Faris style)
Bryan Rhodes
Chris Brown
Jon Caron
Scott Curry
Jasper Blake
Andriy Yastrebov
Gordo
Kyle Marcotte
Courtney Ogden
Matt Lieto
Justin Daerr
Matt Seeley
Oliver Blake


The fast AG men were even worse (a LOT worse), but I have no idea who they are...

The line that "it's impossible not to draft" is complete and utter BS. It can be done, and at the sharp end is actually pretty easy. It's harder for a 1:20+ swimmer to ride clean, but even back there it is very much possible.

For those who really just want to draft, I have no problems with that - learn to swim and race ITU. It's awesome, and I love it. But if you're racing non-drafting races (which includes IM), ride clean already.

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<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
Get Fitter!
Proud member of the Smartasscrew, MONSTER CLUB
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Khai, there were many top age group men that were absolutely ridiculous. Like you said the excuse of not having a choice is utter bullshit. All you have to do is sit up and let 10, 20, 50, or in the case of Lakerfan and myself, let 100 dudes blow by.

To me, there is no difference between using EPO, HGH or drafting. I have tolerance for momentarily being in a position of situational drafting during your legal 15 second 4 bike pass period, but just sitting on someon's tail is absolutely unacceptable. I cannot comment on the pro race, but can comment on the AG race and if you look you'll see a lot of splits with swims in the 64-67 range and bike rides around 5:16 ....backed up with blazing runs....of course you can back up those bike rides with blazing runs when you do 100 watts less than the guys dropping back and riding clean.

The sad part is that AG guys are doing this for fun...to challenge themselves and be the best they can be. I guess this is the same type of psychology that leads to cooking the books at Enron, stealing competitor data sheets, or insider trading....anything to get ahead of the other guy be it legal or not....just cause you see "'everyone else doing it" does not make it legal.

I joked in my my race report about 'DRAFTWATER AT OSOYOOS", but that is exactly what went on. The only way to break it up is wave starts or start with an uphill climb to Yellow Lakes out of T1 and then continue with the rest of the course after dropping down to OK falls and continuing with the rest of the course as it is today...at least at Placid, this level of blatant drafting and lack of respect for fair play is not possible simply because of 20K or uphill out of T1.

Dev

The difference between drafting distance and not drafting distance is less than a second. If you can't manage that on 112 miles of open road, you have no business racing Ironmans. If you find that you're within drafting distance of someone, stop pedaling for, what, all of 2 seconds? If you're faster than the other person, then you should be in front of them by now.

Dude... repost it. The truth is the truth. Repost it.

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36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App

Alright, big man,...I'll repost it, perhaps a little more edited. Kudos to you for 'going for it yesterday'. You put on a gutsy effort. It was great to hang with you after the race.

I wasn't able to put it back to my initial post,...so I'll post it here:
***********

Dirty, dirty, dirty! I’ve always loved to race Ironman Canada based on the fact that the hills often will break people up, and keep packs from forming. My image of the race is now tainted,…the race yesterday was dirty, and far too full of cheating.
I apologize for sounding bitter,…nobody likes a sour puss. I will say however, apart from being disgruntled, I really did enjoy myself yesterday. I finished in a decent time of 8hr52min, with a big smile, and happy heart, knowing that I raced cleanly and the best as I could on the day. Far too many of the top eight men (as deep as the money goes), however didn’t deserve to be there, because they got there by sucking draft on the bike. With that said, those in the top eight who I witnessed race cleanly, were KYLE MARCOTTE, COURTNEY OGDEN (who was in the pack, but at least made an attempt to keep his distance), and BRYAN RHODES. The only guy in the top eight who I didn’t see on the bike, was Justin Daerr.
Anyways, I exited the water in the second group of athletes. Kyle Marcotte from Calgary was one of them. I sat on a chair next to him in transition while we sorted our gear. I asked him how he was feeling, and we both wished each other good races.
The group we exited the water with, started to form a bit of a loose pack. Early on, one of my water bottles slipped out from the cage affixed underneath my aerobars. I turned around and picked it up from the ground. I lost touch with this group, however it was within eyesight. Kyle Marcotte was then trailing about 50m behind it. I took a page out of Tom Evan’s book of smart IM bike racing, and took it super easy up the first hill, McLean Creek Rd. By then, everyone seemed to have pulled quite a way ahead of me. Slowly, I started making some gains on Kyle. I caught back up to Kyle around Oliver, and as I passed him, I told him that I thought that we both were racing smart (in terms of pacing). I ended up closing in on a massively long line of riders — I’m guessing at about 15 pro-men. Christopher Brown was off the front about 100m ahead of this group, doing his own race. I spotted the draft marshal, and asked him if he was doing anything about draft pack??? He replied that he can’t do anything when the media vehicle is beside the pack — I still don’t really understand that excuse. Through the aid station on Ritcher’s pass, the pack was about 200m ahead of me — I grabbed some water and was spraying the entire bottle all over the body for the purpose of keeping me cool. I threw the bottle to the side of the road, just after the LAST CHANCE DROP OFF zone. It was then that the draft marshal came up to me and gave me a YELLOW CARD penalty for throwing my bottle passed this zone. In his words, he said “I’M REALLY SORRY TO HAVE TO DO THIS TO YOU, AFTERALL YOU’VE BEEN RIDING SO CLEAN”. In my mind I’m thinking, if I’m riding cleanly, does that mean that you acknowledge that the pack ahead is NOT riding cleanly,…AND IF SO,…WHY ARE YOU NOT DOING ANYTHING ABOUT IT???!??
At this point, I knew that it was pointless to argue with the official,…all I could do was shake my head.
I then asked him one more time,…”then can you PLLLLEEEEASE try to break up that pack?”
I spoke with the official again, closer to the top of Ritcher’s,…as if to make me feel better, he told me that he gave out some penalties.
While I was serving my bottle-toss infringement in the penalty tent, Kyle Marcotte then passed me again. It took me until the end of the rollers to catch back up to him. At that point, Kyle Marcotte was closing in on one particular pro who served a yellow card in the tent earlier. A few minutes after passing this guy, I looked back to see where he was,…I was disappointed to see the bugger on my wheel! I then had some choice words for him and asked him what he thought he was doing!!!??? He replied, “I’m on your ASS!” Needless to say, further conversation deteriorated from there.
Around the 100km mark, spending a great deal of time in around 15th place, I made a decision to start upping the pace. At the special needs, I grabbed my bag, with two waterbottles and two instant ice-packs,…the kind that requires you to burst a gel/bladder, then you shake the bag, and it induces a cooling reaction. I shook ‘em up, and put them in my cycling jersey.
Soon thereafter special needs, I caught up to Christoper Brown,…I tried to encourage along, and suggested to him to go get the guys ahead. Once I got back onto the main highway,…I was in close contact with the pack of riders again. I was feeling very good,…as though I had another 3 gears. As I flew by the pack, I had some distinctly choice words again for eventual 2nd place finisher Bernhard Hiebl (who took cheating to a new level) as he was sucking a major draft, sitting right on the wheel of the guy ahead of him.
I had a strong last 50km of the race, I was putting some serious time on people, and felt in complete control. My coach Paulo was telling me to ‘chill just a little bit’. I actually felt like I was chillin’ already– it was just a day where cycling fast felt easy. It was certainly not my intention to go for the fastest bike split, but things worked out that way — to my complete surprise, I ended up biking a 4hr39min, and was in 3rd, within striking distance while starting the run.
I felt super good for the first 15km of the run,…I was holding well on the pressing men behind me, and got pretty close to the overall lead. At this point, I felt like I could win it. Without stomach problems, cramping, or any notable mini-disasters, I just simply started to slow. I was passed by a number of men close to the turnaround. The rest of my race was unremarkable,…I just got it done - step by step. One of the last guys to pass me was eventual 8th place finisher Courtney Ogden. As he passed me, I made a comment that I can’t believe the number of guys racing so fast today — he replied, “yeah, but you saw the bike!!!”. Anyways, by the end, I was really happy to have finished and be able to be reunited with my wife Allison at the finish line.
I was really flattered from words of Paula Newby Fraser, and Micheal Lovato at the finish line too — they both had nice things to say about my efforts on the bike regarding my attempt to ‘go for it’.
Thanks for reading!!! Congrats to all those who finished.
Best,
Scott

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http://www.bikeforest.com/scott

That sucks! If it is "ok" for the pros to draft with money/careers on the line, it seems unlikely that the situation in the AG ranks will improve anytime soon. Hard to understand how the draft marshalls know and don't care.

Thanks for reposting.

You don't succeed in life by bowing to the wishes of others. The truth is the truth and doing what you need to do will take you the farthest.

Good hangin' with ya last night as well. Dude you were up late.... and probably already on the road right now! :)

Banff/Jasper... HERE I COME!!!!

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36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App

Like you said the excuse of not having a choice is utter bullshit.

Dev,

Yes and No.

In the pro race with a much smaller race field and a separate start, I would say that you almost have to go out of your way to draft on a course like IMC. It's not inadvertant. It's not an accident. I was not there, but from what I know of him, Scott Curry is stand-up kinda guy. He's a Pro, but he works full time. This is not his whole life, so I would tend to trust what he has to say. I doubt he's making this up or that it's sour grapes.

As for the AG situation - this is completely different. Here, it is a major physics problem that at times( first 40 - 60K on this course) you have too many people, on too little road, with too little challenge. Eventually it does sort itself out, but you can't put that many people on the road, in that short a period of time and have them abide exactly by the rules. The rules are great, but they are asking the athletes to do something that is impossible to do.

This was a problem at IMC 15+ years ago when the field was half the size that it is now. I suspect it is only worse now. People say ease up and let them pass. Well that's fine, but if you swim 1:10'ish at IMC these days, you might as well just pull over to the side of the road anywhere along the road to the Husky station in Oysoyos, set up a lawn chair and wait for 20 - 30 minutes for it to thin out, then head out again. Remember, this is a race - not a tour.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

[The sad part is that AG guys are doing this for fun...to challenge themselves and be the best they can be]
That is "ideally" true.
However @ one point some folks will no longer look @ finishing the race but getting a PR and potentially Kona slot. Some will do it cleanly, some will try to take some advantages with drafting for example, some will follow because others are doing it so why not them.

At the end an Ironman is not that different than every day life and I do not see why it would be different and why suddenly everybody would behave correctly.

Fred.

2200 people out of t1 in what? 45 minutes?

thats (on average, even) almost a person every second, I just don't see how you can stop drafting on a mass-start race with that many participants.

as a slow swimmer, i start the bike with the roads thick with riders. luckily, all through town you have 2 or 3 lanes of width, so you can find clean pavement all the way to the turn off up mcclean. the problem there, is that it looks like the escalators at a busy airport: shoulder to shoulder bikes going 4 mph. drafting isn't an issue at those speeds, but to pass, you have to hug that yellow line without going across it. once on the hwy again out of OK Falls, it's single file and you either are constantly passing, or dropping back, so it's a challenge, but not impossible. there were several people riding way too far into the hwy though for my comfort. they may have thought they were still on closed roads! you have to be actively concentrating to avoid being too close to riders, but i find it quite do-able. the real problem is that you often ride faster than you intend to get around people, so your pacing can get screwed up for awhile.

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Nobody's constipated on race morning

2200 people out of t1 in what? 45 minutes?

That's my point. Too many cyclists, on too little road, in too short a period of time. However, no one wants to do anything about this. There are some obvious solutions, but no one wants to adopt them.

1. Reduce the field size( Financially impractical)
2. Wave starts( personally I hate them - you never know where you are in the race)
3. Killer bike course profile right out of T1( impractical)
4. Total road closures, so full width of the road can be used( impractical)
5. Revisit the drafting rules( impractical and impossible)
6. Draconion implementation of the rules( Impractical and pisses too many people off)

. . and so on . . . and on we go with a debate that is almost as old as the sport itself

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I hear you, but I don't agree with you. I am the swimmer you describe and I never had to draft. There is indeed a large pack of folks coming out between 1:05 and 1:20 but they are mostly of very different cycling abilities and strengths. I typically pass lots of folks and then usually later packs come by cruising by TdF style that include some of the guys I passed individually earlier. These guys know what they are doing is wrong and no one is forcing them to sit on the ass of a line of guys. I call this excuse bull because 10 days ago I did a duathlon outside of Winston-Salem (won by Slowtwitcher Brian Stover) and they had a field of about 175 spread out over a 25 mile bike course after a 5k run. I saw similar blatant drafting there and the roads were wide open.

I hear you, but I don't agree with you. I am the swimmer you describe and I never had to draft. There is indeed a large pack of folks coming out between 1:05 and 1:20 but they are mostly of very different cycling abilities and strengths.

Herbert,

Yes it can be done, legally but it's challenging. Part of the issue is the course. At IMC, with one exception, it's downhill with the wind for the first 60K. There for no challenges, and little break-up. Same at IMFL. I note that at IMUSA, that the drafting issues are less - as the first 40K are reasonably challenging - long up-hill, then a downhill that scares the be-jesus out of most and has many riding the brakes - after that it's typically no problem for the remaining 120K. Same at IMWisco - so much up and technical down that it weeds/sorts people out in fairly good order.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Lots of drafting in the back bit of the out and back at LP this year.... not sure why just there and not on the way out or on other flat bits

lol, none of what you describe at LP is what I experienced when I raced it. Perhaps for the FOP folks it weeds itself out, but the MOP folks, it was a draftfest.

Fleck, I agree and disagree with you. What I saw in the AG ranks near Osoyoos, was complete and utter disregard for fair play in the FOP age group ranks. We're not talking about the first hour of racing here....we're well into the second hour. There is plenty of room on the road. When someone passes, obey the rule and sit up till your 4 bike lengths have developed. After that, you can start passing other guys legally, or stay back 4 bike lengths.

What I saw was a ton of guys at 1 foot back, making no attempt to either drop back or move ahead.

I understand situational drafting and have been in the sport for 24 years now. I'm just asking my fellow competitors to try to make the best of the situation and attempting to play in the spirit of the rules. I know it is possible because I did....you still get a draft at 4 bike lengths back, so why follow at 1 foot back....just play the game legally. There is plenty of road down near Osoyoos.

Right out of T1 fine...it is congested and hard to be completely clean for a few K heading out of town.

The best thing that IMC could do is start the race heading right uphill out of town to Yellow Lakes to the 97 junction and then dropping down to OK falls and continuing from there to Osoyoos on the flats. The McClean Creek diversion is too short...lots of guys can spike their power for 2 min to stay in their "group" and gain 10 minutes going down to Osoyoos soft pedalling 100W less than the solo guys.

Please be clear that this post is about the integrity of the sport. I don't really care if others guys get an advantage on me by drafting, using EPO or HGH. What I care about is the integrity of the sport. I'm just out there racing myself trying to get a PB...what others do have no impact on my race, but for friends trying to get to Kona or place on age group podiums, they are being cheated!

Dev

Steve, people complain all the time, then sign up for the same race. This is why I could never consider
clearwater. Why spend all that money to just be in a draft fest. Kudos to the marketing that have sucked
in so many folks.

Now, folks REALLY do not want a tough race. At the DU long course are Nationals at Auburn, the bike and run kicks
everyone's butt and there is NO drafting. But, guess what, not that many folks signed up since they knew is was a REAL
course. Now, Brad has put a bid in for having Nationals next year also, but if he does not get it, the reason will be
it is TOO hard for folks.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Here is my issue in the pro race when money is involved. If there is any advantage in riding "X" distance behind another rider, it shouldn't be allowed...period.

There are 'draft legal' races.

There are 'non-drafting' races.

Period...nothing in between.

It is proven that there is an advantage when riding 10m (front to front)...so why allow it??? Whether you are saving 30% (on someone's wheel), or saving 10% (back a bit more)....you are getting an advantage and last time I checked, that was drafting and isn't allowed.

I mean come on, how many pros are riding in one race? 30, 50, maybe 80 in some.

Multiple loop course....close them off and give a separate lane for them. Point is, that if a race is giving away 50k, 75k, 500k in prize money...the race should be run in a way that is clean.

+++++++++

Scott's post was gutsy and no doubt it will get a lot of attention....but this issue NEEDS to be addressed. Kona, Florida, Clearwater, Canada, wherever....it goes on everywhere and needs to stop.

Whatever the rule is, the boundary will be pushed.....make the zone bigger and get more officials out there.

FWIW - At IMCDA, I saw 2 motorcycles...the whole ride.

BB
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Professional Triathlete
Owner of Blake Becker Multisport Coaching LLC / Team BBMC
blakebeck@gmail.com
http://www.teambbmc.com

They pack so many people on the course and such large groups form that if you do get passed, legally you'd have to drop back to T1 and start over again. :0

Dev,

Could it be that too many people are riding to a formula, to watts or to HR? They have all heard the power experts on here talking about how bad it is to spike the power, or cap the HR etc . . .We rode to nothing years ago. If you wanted to drop someone or make a move - you got out of the saddle and/or jumped on it for 3 - 4 minutes. Job done. Or you just backed off.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Fleck, if they are riding to their wattage formula, they will see that they are doing 100 W less in the peleton and even 4 bike lengths back probably 20W less!!!

"a duathlon outside of Winston-Salem (won by Slowtwitcher Brian Stover)"

Wait, you are going to compare a fat guys fun run to IMC? If it was won by Stover, it couldn't have been that hard! :)

Scott, I appreciate the reason for your post and I share the frustration. I must say, before you start naming names that you "witnessed" in the top ten being legal, be sure the names you left out weren't drafting.

There is no insult that would effect me more than being an assumed drafter. Considering I never saw you on the bike till you came by me at mile 95 (when I was finally able to drop the group and get a minute gap). Before that point I was letting those guys do there game while watching at a distance. I personally had 3 guys get "warnings" for not passing me in time on Richter and following too close. I believe if you asked anyone in that group, and all of your friends on the course giving splits, they would say that I rode fair and legal, and probably did too much work up front.

I thought you had a great race, and showed heart on the run. If you think I cheated please email me directly and we can chat. This is what I do for a living, and the last thing I need after a hard day at the office, is to be lumped into what I hate the most.

Tired- Matt Lieto

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-Matt Lieto

I came out of the water in 1:01 and had a 5:36 bike in LP.........Spent much of the day looking up the road at a group of 12 who
were taking pulls and pointing out things in the road.

Draft marshal came by and gave two penalties - at least that's how many stopped at the next penalty tent - lost sight of them heading up White Face - I guess it helps to have fresh legs on that section!

Uhhh - what sport are we talking about now? That prize purse sure ain't for triathlon!

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<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
Get Fitter!
Proud member of the Smartasscrew, MONSTER CLUB
Get your FIX today?

Scott, I appreciate the reason for your post and I share the frustration. I must say, before you start naming names that you "witnessed" in the top ten being legal, be sure the names you left out weren't drafting.

Agreed. It's a slippery slope.

However, this is a situation that has been allowed to drift now for many years and no one, not RD's, not offcials and not athletes wants to do anything other than what is being done about it. We are all to blame.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

this is going to be a great thread.

The OP shows he's Ballsy and pulls no punches. Kudos.

Time to start the cameras rolling on these people then there is no dispute.I have always said(during those brief few years when my opinion meant anything)that those busted for repeated drafting in an IM should lose their ability to claim an Hawaii spot.Repeat offenders(and there are many)are put on a register and if they continually draft in M races then they are banned from competing in future events.Call me the draft nazi but lets get rid of those who draft in every race they do.

.

Make the courses tough and problem is solved.

MissP, my better half did IM Lanzarote earlier this year. It was a mass start race, even for the Pros, and she rode solo almost the whole way for 112 miles!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Steve, every race I start, i talk to the race officials and am pretty upfront with the fact I think they don't call enough penalties and are doing a dis-service to the athletes. This often makes me a target, but since I know i am legal, it hasn't hurt me yet.

2 years ago at Canada the official I had this conversation with pre-race, no exaggeration, rode his moto directly across from me the ENTIRE way from Oliver to OSOYOOS. He actually sacrificed the legality of the race up the road, to try and prove a point to me. Didn't make me feel that awesome to say the least.

WE are not all to blame, WE are not all speaking up. I do appreciate the fact that we all "hate" drafting, but we need to be more outspoken about it.

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-Matt Lieto

we all "hate" drafting, but we need to be more outspoken about it.

The AG situation is more challenging. However, for the Pros - you guys can speak up and at least put some ideas on the table. But I have sat through enough pre-race pro meetings over the years, and it always seems like a bit of a love-in at a commune. It's always high-fiving-and-hows-the-training-going. Rarely are the harder issues ever brought up and addressed and talked through. To be honest, pre-race meetings are not the place to be having these sorts of discussions, but it's the only time that enough key people are all in one room at one time. I am not a big union guy, but something does need to be done so that RD's and Pros can meet and start to talk. There is more on the line here than just the rules. For example, if I was still sitting in that room ( and sometimes by chance, I am, but I have no voice these days), I would want to know why the prize purses are the same as they were 20 years ago?

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

When I make the comment that pretty much anyone can do an IM with a 17 hour cutoff, I get myself in trouble.
Pretty easy if one just paces themselves and eats correctly. This is one reason I am back to doing Oly distance stuff.
There is none of this I can get a tattoo junk.. You just have to race your ass off to be competitive.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

IMC, IMAZ and CDA had 75k in prize money. Kona has a lot....

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Professional Triathlete
Owner of Blake Becker Multisport Coaching LLC / Team BBMC
blakebeck@gmail.com
http://www.teambbmc.com

YES...thank you Steve!
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Professional Triathlete
Owner of Blake Becker Multisport Coaching LLC / Team BBMC
blakebeck@gmail.com
http://www.teambbmc.com

Pretty easy to do an Oly within the usual cutoff too, and you don't even have to pay any attention to all that complicated nutrition stuff. Seems to me that in IM you have to 'race your ass off' to be competitive too.

When I make the comment that pretty much anyone can do an IM with a 17 hour cutoff, I get myself in trouble.
Pretty easy if one just paces themselves and eats correctly.

Bloody hell, the water boy wrote something I agree with.

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Forget speedwork. Speedwork is the icing on the cake and you don't have a cake yet. - MattinSF

Basically they have 9 tenants, live life to the fullest, do not turn the cheak, and embrace the 7 deadly since. - TheForge (on satanists)

Dev how bout 1k penalty loops.........did they not have that back in like Nice or one of the other 4/120/30 races, maybe at there worlds.

I would love to see that. We should e-mail Graham.

tfun~

I agree - athletes race for respect (self respect, and respect from competitors). If draft marshalls were all equipped with cheap small video cameras, they could simply video athletes that are drafting and then during the award ceremonies have a little video in the corner that highlights the cheaters - then of course everyone could shame them for cheating. I agree with Fleck about AG's - but share Scott's concern with the pro ranks. I was watching the race from the race updates at home and was really proud of the work that Rhodes did out there on his own. Trying to sit on someone's wheel is shameful during a race. Some guys just dont care I guess and will do anything to get ahead.

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Michael Hay - helped on the journey by the great folks at ZiZU Optics, (for the custom fit), and Bialkowlski's TRYSPORT

WE are not all to blame, WE are not all speaking up. I do appreciate the fact that we all "hate" drafting, but we need to be more outspoken about it.

I completely agree. I have no issue with playing within the rules and staying your distance accordingly. We all need to say more about the flagrant violations. I guess I have been relatively insulated for the past many years, doing local racing and IMLP which might have a few packs where the geography results on way too many riders stuffed into a narrow out and back, but on the balance it is much cleaner. Even Kona is much cleaner than the road down the Richter at IMC.

In the end, it is up to us athletes to "play fair" and make an attempt to obey the spirit of the rules. This is what I have the biggest beef with. More age groupers need to speak up when these packs form. WE (I am using the collective) all have a choice. We can choose to be the generally honest guy that still steal the $100 bill that is left on the cafeteria table when no one is looking knowing that a colleague left it there, or we can be the guy that takes it to the reception saying that money was left by "someone in the cafeteria"...WHICH GUY DO YOU WANT TO BE?

Do you want to be the guy that took something that someone else rightfully earned, or do you want to go earn the cash yourself and return what you found to the owner?

As I tell the kids that I coach in XC skiing, what separates a good and great athlete is what you do when no one is looking...be it coaches, officials, parents etc etc.

I have no beef with following legally and getting the legal benefit of the reduced draft. It is the blatant stuff that is out of hand.

Dev

How about public shaming?

Be careful now.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Matt you sure rode very clean and was a good exemple out there of good spormanship and trying to break away,.... keep thegood work....

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

I agree Steve - that is a huge can of worms isnt it. I struggle with this one - these IM races take a hell of a lot out of a person and an athlete can really only dip deep into the tank a limited number of times. The prizes are so small in relationship to the total budget for the event. I have always said I would pay more just to see the prize money for a race increase so that the top performers are rewarded for their efforts. I would love to see young pro's have a go at this game - win a few bucks to justify their efforts to their friends and family and really see what they can do. So many people I talk to that are not really into the sport are dumbfounded when they here how little prize money or prizes are available at most of the established races in Canada. Certainly was way better in the late eighties. I would guess that not much will change though. Races are filling up fast with average AG athletes looking for the personal experience - not really racing - just participating. I guess they dont care how fast or competitive the race is.

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Michael Hay - helped on the journey by the great folks at ZiZU Optics, (for the custom fit), and Bialkowlski's TRYSPORT

From what I have seen posted on ST over the years, seems like a LOT of folks have no shame to get into
Kona, whether it is drafting or using drugs.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

 
Dev how bout 1k penalty loops..

I have always liked that.

This sitting /standing around for a few minutes, while it may be a time penalty, might actually be advantageous. Running an extra 1 or 2k BEFORE you start the real run, would be a time and physiological penalty. That may really get peoples attention.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

See post 7 in this thread.

I suggest a 400m "loop of shame" set up right outside T2...first infraction 4 loops (1 mile), second infraction 2 more miles....third infraction 3 more miles.

Guys riding clean are getting to T2 with shredded legs.

Guys drafting are getting to T2 with fresh legs.

They need their legs shredded. I figure running 3 extra miles (20-30 minutes) along with the accumulated fatigue before starting 26 miles, along with public shame in front of the fans in T2 should serve as a solid deterrent for drafting :-).

Running 26 miles sucks bad enough....running 26 miles after 2.4 miles swim, 112 mile bike and then 3 extra miles of running should keep things clean...

Dev, threads like these if why ST has its reputation. This is a BUSINESS. No owner of a business is going
to change anything when they fill up 1 year ahead of time. How many businesses do you know that can say that?
Talk is cheap. Just put your money where your mouth is.

Bottom line in any sport, you play by the "rules" that are being enforced for that event.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

"Now, folks REALLY do not want a tough race. At the DU long course are Nationals at Auburn, the bike and run kicks
everyone's butt and there is NO drafting. But, guess what, not that many folks signed up since they knew is was a REAL
course. Now, Brad has put a bid in for having Nationals next year also, but if he does not get it, the reason will be
it is TOO hard for folks."

Wrong! Personally I love a hilly course, and so do many, many others - why do you think LP fills up so quickly?

And if everyone on ST always has everything wrong (except you), why do you frequent this site?

Then I have to wonder why Silverman doesn't fill out twice as fast as all the others? LP was hardish, but Silverman was far harder.

Or why Auburn has never filled up.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Like you Matt, I feel as though I was listed as guilty because Scott chose to point out certain names (Ogden, Jonnyo, Kyle) as having ridden the course cleanly. So, because my name was not listed, should I feel proud of my race, guilty of my race, or not care what you think? From my perspective, I got a stand down penalty barely two miles out of T1 for splitting a pass between Jason Shortis and Gordo on a turn leading out of town and had to serve a penalty for this non-drafting infraction up ontop of Richter. You can ask Dave Cracknell, who I was chatting to while waiting for the volunteers to fill out my information, that this took far too long (a few minutes) but that I arrived to the tent in 3rd place and left the tent in 3rd place with no one in sight behind.

Earlier in the race, around mile 7 or 8, I saw you pulled over on the side of the road and you mentioned you had dropped a bottle. I didn't see you again until you put in your move at mile 95. Matt had broken away a few miles before that, Ogden broke away a few miles after that, and I broke away a few miles after that. So I'm not guilty in your eyes, I want you to know I rode alone for ~ 90 miles of the day. I did go through a bad spell during the out & back section, possibly suffering from going out too hard, but then again, I was very motivated to try to ride through as much of the race as possible (rode in 3rd for most of the day). I thought from the speed you passed me around mile 95, you rode a very nice race. But, that was the brief time I saw you out on the course. I just wish, if you're going to take your race report on a public forum, you should mention all names you are attacking (or not attacking).

Racing is not my profession, but I always try MY best out there.

Lars

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Lars Finanger
Odyssey SwimRun

If you think the reason LP fills up so quickly is because the course is hard, you are really out of touch with the reality of this IM machine. FL will probably fill up as fast as LP this yr (obviously has little to do w/ the course as CdA may even still be open - not sure), your theory behind that?

http://www.ironmancda.com/entry.php

Slowman: Maybe Jay could do a story on why the rules aren't being enforced by the officials????

Or, since Jimmy and Paula post/lurk here, maybe they want to chime in?

clm

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

To some extent, I think the officials are doing what they can with limited resources. It is up to the athletes to play cleaner. Do you really want a Kona slot, or PB, or a finish where you know that you broke the rules blatantly. Why not pop your EPO pill in front of everyone straight out the AMGEN branded container, or swim with a sign on your back saying, "Don't worry about me, I'm cutting the course. See you at the finish line suckers...."

I know that NAS sports loves mass starts, but in reality we already have wave starts with the pros starting 15 min ahead. Just start 20-29 next and then 30-34 and then 40+ each 5 min apart. That will take care of 90% of the drafting and then let the officials do the rest with some help from athletes playing honestly. We just need to decrease the density of the testosterone Age groups hitting the pavement at the same time (as Fleck pointed out)....having 20-49 emerge at the same time is asking for trouble. Then if this does not work, make more severe penalties....10 min first infraction, 20 min next (or 1 mile and 2 mile penalty run loops).

Sorry for derailing the OP's thread delving into the age grouper issues.

Dev

Bottom line in any sport, you play by the "rules" that are being enforced for that event.

Dave,

That's all fine and dandy, but what to do when the rules are asking you to do something that is impossible to do. Try getting out of the water with 100 other guys in less than a minute and you all head out on the bike at roughly the same time. Try and all get lined up and nice and sorted out single file with 7m( or whatever the distance is) between you and the next guy. Then hold that position, no moving, for the next 100K! :)

Good luck!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

If you read my post again,...you can see I didn't name my friend Jonnyo. J - love you man.

Anyways,...my point on this issue is that we really shouldn't be having to talk about this. As pros, we know that we don't need to hammer the first 1/2 of the race to still have a decent bike split anyways. Why don't we just chill out,...and spread out,...we have soooooo much room to cover,...we could each space ourselves out 100m if we wanted (exactly what Kyle did - kudos brother), take in our nutrition, relax and hydrate and worry about order later. The constant leap-frogging, and jostling for position...doing the 'i'm leading,...now you lead,...then I'll lead' thing just doesn't make sense if you're trying to race without a draft.

What would we all do in a world where riding within 50m of another rider actually made us slower? Do you think we'd slowly creep up on our competitors, and see how long we could challenge ourselves by riding in the 'difficult zone' (opposite of a draft zone)??? Hell no! We'd make sure we did everything possible to keep away from each other. We'd each ride our own race entirely dependent our own strategies,...the way Ironman racing has always intented to be.

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http://www.bikeforest.com/scott

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Ruble Triathlon Coaching Average of 30 coached PR's per year
Florida Triathlon Camps Train in North Americas winter training destination
Ruble Racing Events Midwest Triathlon Racing
Ruble Timing Midwest Event Timing

Accusing practically the entire field of drafting without any evidence. It is amazing how many posters have apparently sided with you and seem to respect you for that.

To me, you completely lack class and sound like a whiny little b!tch. Seriously. Go cry me a river.

Steve, very easy. I do not sign up for races like this! I do walk my talk with my money.
So, I have never had an issue in a race in my 12 years of racing. Life is TOO short
to bitch about something you KNEW was going to be that way before you signed up.

Most IM races are no longer races, just a big event. Nothing wrong with that and most
have a great time. Just not something I am interested in spending my few races I have left in me.
I would rather do the short stuff, be able to race every weekend, and if I get sick or something,
I have not lost my entire season for 1 race I planned for. Now, if I get into Kona,
yep, I will go have a great event, 17 hours worth.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Well, I was on course following the pro races and I saw a lot of what is being described. There were a number of guys out there riding too close and getting a free ride to T2. A couple of them went home with nice paychecks and a Kona slot. So, while you may think Scott is being a whiney bitch, I think he is doing the right thing by speaking his mind and calling out the athletes who are blatantly cheating.

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Shawn
TORRE Consulting Services, LLC
http://www.TORREcs.com

I accused people in that group (not the field), that they specifically stayed in that group by making a consious decision to conserve energy, seeking a specific and undeserved advantage. That I reckon, is as classless as me talking about it.

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http://www.bikeforest.com/scott

"Lack class" then call him a whiny little bitch.. well played sir.

We're all sick of the drafting, he's calling out some pros for drafting. What's the issue? Are you living in some fantasy world where a decent amount of folks don't draft blatantly in this sport?

I don't see it as crying a river, I see it as addressing that 5 billion pound elephant in the room.

Go on brother Curry and thanks for the insight.

Without any evidence? Did you miss the fact that he was right there in the middle of the pro race?

Telling someone they "lack class and sound like a whiny (sic!) little bitch".... whilst posting anonymously is a pretty classy too eh? after two years training and living with my good buddy Scott, I know he genuinely cares about the sport... you find it "amazing how many posters have apparently sided with" Scott, they're sided with him for a couple reasons, for one, he's right...secondly, anybody who's been around the triathlon scene for the last 10-15yrs has come across Scott, aka the guy who can't stop smiling, and knows he busts his ass 30-50hrs a week at work, is married and still manages to train 20+hrs per week for a handful of races a year, and does an 8:52....so he's got no reason to make up lies about drafting at IMC. Put it together and you've got a hard working guy who knows what's right/wrong in the sport making some really ballzy comments that shouldn't go unsaid.... no need for anonymous smack talking...


Stay classy,

-Jarret Hann

....that being said, I completely understand why it happened. I'm not without fault,...believe me, there was a true side of me that wanted to sit in that group too. If I depended on prize money to survive, it would have been the tipping point for me. The rules just need to be enforced, and may need to be change too.

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http://www.bikeforest.com/scott

Scott, I think it is great you say what you feel....you saw some guys cheating and you called them out on it. Congrats on that 8:52 Ironman, impressive!

Darin Booton
www.konaendurance.com

Jarret, many many of the folks who attack others somehow are not willing to use their real names.
Wonder why so many gives these folks ANY credit!!!!!!

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Aerobike--you take the cake for THE ALL TIME LOSER post. Newsflash--drafting is a huge problem. Scott was there and called it like he saw it. We need more of that--not less. Were you there-if so, let's hear your viewpoint, otherwise let those who were call it as they saw it.

As a CEO I have often thought about supporting this great sport through sponsorship but one of the things which gives me pause is the blatant cheating that goes on. Triathlon should be about a lot of good things in life--living right, working hard, showing courage, persevering, etc. Not about cheating to pick up a $2000 paycheck at IMC. I know this isn't the same as the Tour and EPO but from a sponsorship perspective, if you're paying attention, it's pretty much the same thing. As a result, my company has tended to sponsor local and kid's triathlons--seem like they are truer to the spirit of this sport. I wonder if other potential sponsors have this viewpoint....

Aerobike--man-up and apologize to Scott and try to do something constructive!

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Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.

Get a clue. Scott accused a subset of the pro mens field, of which many were blatantly drafting. As someone who was riding in the top 20 all day (working his way from 17th out of the water to 4th off the bike) he had plenty of opportunity to see the sharp end of the field.

I was out there all day leapfrogging the leaders (in a car) and saw the very same thing. While many rode clean, there was a lot of drafting, and it was bad.

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<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
Get Fitter!
Proud member of the Smartasscrew, MONSTER CLUB
Get your FIX today?

Shawn, you said in another thread you were following the race and witnessed a lot of AG athletes blantantly drafting, including STers (you obviously know/recognize them somehow).

If you really "think he is doing the right thing by speaking his mind and calling out the athletes who are blatantly cheating" then its time to man up and do the same.

Name and shame...

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blood, sweat...and big gears

I hated every minute of training, but I said, ''Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.''
- Muhammad Ali

How about supplying pics to this.

http://draftingsucks.blogspot.com


:-)

Gold! Make it a sticky Herbert...dare ya ;)

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blood, sweat...and big gears

I hated every minute of training, but I said, ''Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.''
- Muhammad Ali

When I wear my mirror at Nationals, can I get on that site?

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

That sounds like a great idea Nick !

Terry

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"You are never too old to set another goal or to dream a new dream" - Les Brown
"Discipline is the bridge between goals and accomplishment" - Jim Rohn

Scott, guess your not budging on this at all, I am all of a sudden doubting the class i spoke of earlier. Just because an athlete is with a "group" does not mean he is cheating or wants to be there. Maybe an athlete has a race plan and sticks to it? I had a plan and stuck to it, if that meant watching a group slowly bring me back after Richter because I was staying in my "watts" then that was my plan. Does that mean I want to be in that group- NO. You are being a bit ignorant by these statements.

I understand it was a tough field and the times where faster than a regular year on your home turf, but to come to your pulpit and call guys out for racing a smart race, is low class. Not smart because they where drafting, smart because they didn't change their race plan due to low integrity racers.

One more comment, is cheating, cheating? Here you are accusing people of cheating, while you finished the ride with a mark on your number? Throwing a bottle after the drop zone is a form of cheating- it is against the RULES. The rest of us professionals who got rid of our bottles before the zone followed the rules, even if it meant to not fill up our whole aero bottle, or soft pedal or coast to get it out in time. What has more effect on the race, guys with admittedly no class by drafting (get this straight I think drafting is crap and we need to fix it!) or littering a course only for thousands of amatuers to possibly follow your lead thinking, if so and so did it so can I. That actually can affect our ability to continue to race in these beautiful places.

Like I said, in the race as far as I saw I thought you where class, even spending energy to encourage you when I caught you on the run- to no response I might add.

Do not get me wrong , there where a lot of guys drafting, and I was incredibly frustrated myself, but had to stick to my own race. I have no problem with complaining about drafting- but- DO NOT CALL PEOPLE OUT IF YOU DIDN'T WITNESS THEM CHEAT.

Sorry if I seem upset, but I my goal for the last 10 years racing has always been to race to the best of my ability, but most importantly with integrity. Just don't need an upset athlete to virtually accuse the entire field besides him and a few others of cheating.

Enjoy the recovery- Matt Lieto

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-Matt Lieto

It happens because the race officals can't get in there on motor cycles safely. The road on the "out and back" is too narrow". If you recall tech support was in there on argos/ATVs. I could be wrong but some of the drafting occurs because it was narrow and this year because you didn't really know what was under those big puddles...I got passed by some bunched up riders in the "out and back", but other than that the race seemed pretty well spread out where I rode at LP.

TS

I saw you riding Matt. You were clean.

Scott made a mistake in naming those he saw as clean without the caveat that he was not necessarily stating that everyone left off his list was dirty. As a racer it would be impossible for him to see everyone (he did have a race of his own to focus on) - he named those who he saw riding clean (and initially those he saw as dirty, but he's since removed that part).

I was out on course with the leaders, and saw the top 20 for nearly the whole ride (I didn't see what Marky V was up to for a chunk of the ride, but he was solo off the front).

Again, for the benefit of everyone on the forum, you were clean. All day.




Khai

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<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
Get Fitter!
Proud member of the Smartasscrew, MONSTER CLUB
Get your FIX today?

The problem is the incident we witnessed was only about a minute. We were chasing the pro race and happened to come across a pack of 5-6 AG guys riding together with less than a bike length separation. This was just before the fruit stand and the out n back section. In the middle of the pack was someone we instantly recognized. Even though it was a long enough time to deserve a drafting penalty, I'm not willing to call him out since it was the only time I saw him on the bike. To us, it looked like an organized draft pack but, again, the whole incident was about 60secs and we never saw him again. Whereas, with the pro race, we followed it all day and saw numerous incidents of pack riding and drafting.

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Shawn
TORRE Consulting Services, LLC
http://www.TORREcs.com

So you write that first post and then you essentially say that you think it's ok to cheat if you depend on prize money to survive?? When enough people have that attitude that's the problem right there.

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BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

Not to put words into Scott's mouth but I think that what he intended to say was that he understands the temptation to cheat, and believes that it would be much stronger for those whose livelihood depends on race winnings - to the point where it could be a really tough decision (as opposed to simply "clear as day"). Not knowing Scott extremely well, I still think that I know him well enough to state that he'd rather eat Ramen with his honour intact than dine on steak and caviar as a cheater.

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<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
Get Fitter!
Proud member of the Smartasscrew, MONSTER CLUB
Get your FIX today?

I think what he was saying was that if he really depended on that prize money check to feed his family, it would be a lot harder to convince himself to follow rules that lots of other people seemed to not be following. That makes sense to me: if the choice is between following a rule at a triathlon (that other people are breaking!) and letting your family go hungry, the choice becomes a lot less clear.

Yes, I can see that but what I reacted to was the; If I depended on prize money to survive, it would have been the tipping point for me. Maybe that was just very poor wording but like it's written it seems pretty clear cut to me and would be hard to interpret in any other way. Not all of us know the guy and can guess that he means something different than what he's actually writing.

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BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

No it doesn't because then you just go and get a real job. To stretch this further do you think it's ok for me or anyone to cheat by taking doping products if that was the only way we could make a living from doing triathlons?

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BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

OK, I definitely see your point. I agree that if the only way you can succeed is by cheating, that doesn't mean it's OK to cheat in order to succeed. I've been in the position Scott found himself in last weekend - I did IMFL last fall - and I had to make the same decision. Last fall's IMFL was not the cleanest race in the history of triathlons, there was a lot of drafting going on, and I wound up choosing to do most of the ride on my own, about 300 meters behind a decent-sized group. You probably never have this problem (I imagine that's one of the benefits of being pretty much the fastest bike rider in triathlons), but when you can see a group ahead of you, working together, it is pretty darn tempting to go ride with them. Like I said, I didn't go ride with them, but I can't honestly say that doing so is as inconceivable as, say, cutting the course.
Certainly it's not the right thing to do, and I am sure Scott is happy with his choice. But it is a choice, because although it's a rule, it's hardly ever enforced, so obeying it becomes more and more of a competitive disadvantage. It's not the only one. For instance:
- Hardly anyone starts an IM with the "required" 6 one-inch pieces of reflective tape on their person. That's a rule that shouldn't be hard to obey, but it's not enforced.
- Neither is the rule against cutting or folding race numbers.
- Likewise any race with a deepwater start has part of the field drifting halfway out to the first turn buoy before the gun goes off. This one is actually the most like the drafting problem. There's always a lifeguard there going "hey, you guys, move back!", but the rule is never actually enforced. Some people stay behind the start line until the gun because that's the rule, but by doing so they are giving up time to the athletes who race under the subset of rules which are actually enforced.

It would be *great* if all of us could just be trusted to follow the rules all the time. Rules are after all the entire point of sport; they define the sport. Rules are what make triathlon different from bike racing, sailboat racing, and golf. But if rules are never enforced, they aren't really rules at all, and breaking them is less a matter of integrity and more a matter of practicality. I do agree with your basic premise (just because you need to cheat in order to succeed, that doesn't mean you should cheat), but I don't really think that's what we're discussing.

Off topic..but this makes the whole thread below make a lot more sense! :-)

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...rum.cgi?post=1059531

I can see that but the fact that most people seem to think that this violation that can produce huge benefits in overall time and placing is ok to do as long as no one sees you is why the problem is so big. Again with a drug example; do you also have an understanding for people that take prohibited performance enhancers for races that are not doing drug testing which also is the case in a lot of triathlons just the same as some are not monitoring drafting? Like I said both of these provide much greater benefits than cutting your number or not wearing reflective tape so obviously I think everyone should know where the priorities are in enforcing these rules. Doesn't matter where you are on the bike the rules are the same for everybody and impacts the guy off the front in the end sometimes as much as the guys doing the actual drafting further back.

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BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

Seeing as there are so many pros posting to this thread I'm going to give you a heads-up on IMC '09 - I'm registered. I waited in line (again) all night to sign up, so you know I'm tough. I only need to shave about an hour off my bike split to own all of you. My training plan includes buying new pedals and painting my bike black, so I figure I'm already at least halfway there. I'll be out of the water in a little over an hour. With your 15 minute lead, expect to start hearing 'left' somewhere around Starbucks. You're welcome to sit in as long as you can, but remember you still have a marathon to run...

If anyone wants a free 8.5 x 11" photo of me (action shot, add $6.00) to pin up in in front of their trainer over the winter, please PM me your coordinates.

See you on the 30th.

Why? That 2 year old post was about Chris Lieto. The above poster is Matt Lieto. Same family, different doode.

Awesome, can I be on your team?

Sure, line forms in the rear...

Dude, I don't care about the run but if I do manage to sit on your wheel all the way will you at least let me lead the way into T2 so I can collect my bonuses for first off bike? I'll give you 3% of bonuses and a beer at the awards..

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BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

LMAO!

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"Fear is what drives you in the last part of a marathon in an Ironman. The body is depleted and the mind is fuzzy. Short course racing is driven by power and finese at the end of a race, Ironman demands so much more and is driven by will and mental strength." Chris McCormack

10/28/08 Dev Paul had 400w FTP!!!

The rationale is not "it's OK to do so long as no one sees you" - it's "this rule is not enforced, so why should I follow it if no one else is going to?"

Rules are what define a sport. Some rules are really particular to a certain sport - drafting is a particular rule for triathlons, but other sports have them too. Swimming, for example, is very big on false starts. Triathlon has the same rule on false starts, but it's never enforced, no one cares about it, and it's not obeyed nearly as rigorously as it is in swimming.

I don't really want to argue with you here, because I think you are right. You can't just go around breaking rules because you think you won't get caught. But I think it is more complicated than that. A rule that's never enforced (reflective tape, cutting/folding bike numbers, drifting out past the starting line) soon stops being a rule at all.

You had me at 3%.

They sell beer at the awards? How in the hell have I been missing that?!

Selling? I think they just hand it out but I'll personally fetch it for you.

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BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

Seeing as there are so many pros posting to this thread I'm going to give you a heads-up on IMC '09 - I'm registered

Ditto. Look out.

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Proud member of the MSF (Maple Syrup Mafia)

Man, I'm feeling bladed here....what about the teammates? I drink beer too. Remember, the bigger the group, the less work.

Hey - were you the one that let D in the van?

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<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
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D?

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Proud member of the MSF (Maple Syrup Mafia)

VIP's get it for free. Regular schlubs have to pay for it...

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I should add that I was also out on the course Sunday leap-frogging the lead ~20. Things did look a bit tight at times (the arrival of 7 guys within about 10 seconds at Cawston comes to mind) but I'll leave the calling out to others.

Regardless, it is awesome to watch you guys race.

Nice, next year my beer is free!

I whole-heartedly agree.

A few minutes rest period can have enormous advantages. The risk of getting caught drafting for a mandatory rest period that may well improve your overall time , just does not make sense.

Knowing that you will have to run 43 or 44.2 km's is surely wiser.

Wjy do all of these points never get taken into consideration.

Perhaps Slowman can set us up a thread for penalty ideas or a petition for each athlete to have a WTC id where they will have their " athletic record' recorded. Thereby making drafting in one race not only enforceable in that particular race , but in their overall record. Sort of like your driver's licence.

Terry

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"You are never too old to set another goal or to dream a new dream" - Les Brown
"Discipline is the bridge between goals and accomplishment" - Jim Rohn

Due to some nasty asthma issues as well as nutritional problems, D (cuds) was convinced to get in the SAG van at ~mi55 by Rebecca Preston (who was also in the van after a rough day at the office). Nutrition issues aside, the girl couldn't breathe - which kind of makes it hard to do an IM.


I had told her that you were under strict orders not to let her in the van, but she doesn't listen to me anyway... That post was more for her than a "real" question for you (though I was curious if she was in your SAG vehicle, just because that would be sort of funny).

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<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
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No worries, you're in. Keep in mind though that Bjorn will be putting the beer on your chair and expect you to sit on the table to drink it.

I think the officials probably do the best job they can under the dircumstances. To bust someone for drafting you have to rideup on them on a motobike, get alongside and verify that they are less than 10m behind before dishing out a card. Of course, by the time that happens, any guy who was riding 7m behind is now 11m behind. The call then becomes too subjective.

It's up to the race organisers to be creative. Technology needs to be used to offset the cost and it must be discrete because that is what is the failure point with the current approach. Most of the technology is there and deployed on the course anyway with the timing mats. Increase the frequency, add some dummy ones in. And yes Dev, loops of shame to shred the legs.

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TriRaceBook.com
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Hawaii Qualification Analysis

I just hope you're signed up for Clearwater. That will be an awesome race report.

But congratulations on a great race.

In reply to:

As for the AG situation - this is completely different. Here, it is a major physics problem that at times( first 40 - 60K on this course) you have too many people, on too little road, with too little challenge. Eventually it does sort itself out, but you can't put that many people on the road, in that short a period of time and have them abide exactly by the rules. The rules are great, but they are asking the athletes to do something that is impossible to do.

This was a problem at IMC 15+ years ago when the field was half the size that it is now. I suspect it is only worse now. People say ease up and let them pass. Well that's fine, but if you swim 1:10'ish at IMC these days, you might as well just pull over to the side of the road anywhere along the road to the Husky station in Oysoyos, set up a lawn chair and wait for 20 - 30 minutes for it to thin out, then head out again. Remember, this is a race - not a tour.


Reply:
Funny thing is you sell wetsuits, so I assume you're somewhat swim centric. My theory is if the drafting rules were enforced, a IM race would be much more evenly balanced as far as the swim is concerned. If you swim sub 1 hour, youshould have no problem riding your pace. If you swim 1-1:20 you are going to have to either surge past people for 50 miles or be constantly dropping back. This gives the fish a much bigger advantage than 5- 10 minutes would really indicate.

Also, If you're being passed I don't see an issue, everyone assumes that if a long line of riders passes you, you have to let every one go by. If the group is creeping you just move over and then the next guy in line is responsible for dropping back behind you.

Styrrell

Thanks Khai, I appreciate that very much.

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-Matt Lieto

Funny thing is you sell wetsuits, so I assume you're somewhat swim centric.

Actually, I am triathlon centric! It's about three sports - swim/bike/run and putting them all together on race day.

The rest of your post I am somewhat confused about. Not sure what you are getting at.

I will say this - "rush hour" at big IM races has slowed somewhat over the years. It used to be 1:00 - 1:10. That's still pretty hectic these days, but it's absolutly nuts at around 1:20. Stand right at the exit from T1 at any big IM and you will see the problem quite clearly - it looks like the roll-out at the start of a Tour de France stage!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

My point is after every major IM you hear 2 complaints.

A) If you come out at rush hour its too congested to ride legally.

B) If you're a fish you really don't get much advantage vs being a top cyclist or top runner.

I'm just pointing out that enforcing the drafting rules would "solve" both issues. Rush hour swimmers would have probably 20 minutes added to their bike time due to having to ride legally, so in effect if you swim 1:00 vs 1:20 it should be a 40 minute advantage. Front pack swimmers are the one who are mostly hurt by not enforcing drafting.

Note that this wasn't really in reply to you specifically other than your statement that a rush hour swimmer would practically have to sit by the side ofthe road for a 1/2 hour to ride legally.

Styrrell

ok... I'm playing a little catch-up here (I'm finally sober and back to CowTown).

Thanks Scott, for the recognition of racing a clean race. I have to admit that I was upset when I saw the line across your number on race day. At first I thought the line was for a drafting penalty, which made no sense to me as we've raced against each other so much and I know that you are a clean racer (you are not a drafter). When I learned on Monday (from Johnyo) that the line was for dropping a bottle, I was pissed as you rode such a strong clean race and it wasn't fair that you were singled out for such a small infraction when it appeared that others were clearly taking advantage of the lack of officiating.

I guess sitting back 100m it's always hard to tell perspective (distances) but I was surprised that some of those athletes were putting time on me on an into the head wind section.

Oh... I had similar choice words for that pro who you spoke to after Richter, but I probably wasn't as polite about it as you were.

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Kyle Marcotte
Team Timex Multisport
http://teamtimex.timexblogs.com/ - http://calgarytriandbike.blogspot.com/ - http://twitter.com/dukyle/

B) If you're a fish you really don't get much advantage vs being a top cyclist or top runner.

Well if I was a Fish I would want to have a little sit-down with the pioneers of the sport and try and figure out why swimming and swimmers got such a raw deal. The ratios of the all the popular race distances make the swim something that in the grand scheme of things matters very little.

Ironically, the only format and distance that the swim really matters, is the ITU format, which few seem to like! :)

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Historically I understand (the three individual races in Oahu). Practically for other distances the majority don't want much swimming. I think 1 or 2 promotor have tried eventswhere the s/b/r were pretty equal, with dismal participation.

Styrrell

everyone assumes that if a long line of riders passes you, you have to let every one go by. If the group is creeping you just move over and then the next guy in line is responsible for dropping back behind you.


If you follow the rules you DO have to let everyone go by. If you get passed, you HAVE to get out of the draft zone of the guy/gal that passed you. While doing that, if another cyclist passes you, you have to drop again. If the long line is riding at the minimum legal distance, you have no choice but to drop at the back of the line. Drafting packs do form because cyclists don't follow the rules, do not understand the rule, and try to overtake without dropping back out of the drafting zone.

Francois in Montreal

i think swimming 4k is plenty. ;)

I am in the process of interviewing Jimmy Riccitello about the drafting problem and he is aware of this thread. Jimmy also said he was going to forward this thread to the ref in question.

H

I think you're wrong.

Guy A passes me (his front wheel is 1 cm in front of mine) I allow him to continue to slowly go by. When his rear wheel is 1 cm past my front, l continue to allow him to move ahead but I'm under no obligation to let the next guy past me, until his front wheel is 1 cm in front of mine, which should take some time. If the whole line is moving fast its no big deal to let them by, just ride your pace and they will be gone. If the front guy goes past then slows to your riding pace (pretty common), move over slightly when he's past and let him drift a legal distance away. You may have to speed up a bit if the next guy tries to pass you to signal to him that you have no intention of giving up your position.

Styrrell

i think swimming 4k is plenty.

The sports pioneers and RD's are not stupid. Smart men/women, all.

Over the years in my casual polling of people who are thinking about getting into triathlon, the number one barrier to them and their greatest fear is the swim! It's rather ironic, because once they get into the sport, for many, it becomes the least of their concerns!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Guy A passes me (his front wheel is 1 cm in front of mine) I allow him to continue to slowly go by. When his rear wheel is 1 cm past my front, l continue to allow him to move ahead but I'm under no obligation to let the next guy past me, until his front wheel is 1 cm in front of mine, which should take some time.

First of all, you have been passed when the leading edge of the FRONT wheel of the passing rider is ahead of yours. According to USAT rules you must IMMEDIATELY move out of the draft zone. By doing so, the next cyclist in line will enter your draft zone and will show a progression toward you (since you are actively dropping out of the draft zone of the leading cyclist). At that point (and this is the part that many triathletes do not understand), if you suddenly reaccelerate to avoid being passed by the guy behind you, you are blocking him and can be called for a violation. So again, if there is a line of cyclists riding at minimum legal distance that are passing you, you have no choice but to drop at the end of the line. Then you can decide to pass again, but you would have no choice but to pass the entire line (because by passing the last bike in line, you would automatically enter the draft zone of the preceeding bike, which is only legal if you overtake it within the allowed 15 seconds).

Francois in Montreal

Yes, unfortunately she was in my van. I did not know it was her though.

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Proud member of the MSF (Maple Syrup Mafia)

Guy A passes me (his front wheel is 1 cm in front of mine) I allow him to continue to slowly go by. When his rear wheel is 1 cm past my front, l continue to allow him to move ahead but I'm under no obligation to let the next guy past me, until his front wheel is 1 cm in front of mine, which should take some time.

First of all, you have been passed when the leading edge of the FRONT wheel of the passing rider is ahead of yours.

Thats exactly what my first line means (by wheel I meant front of wheel) so we are in agreement there.

,According to USAT rules you must IMMEDIATELY move out of the draft zone. By doing so, the next cyclist in line will enter your draft zone and will show a progression toward you (since you are actively dropping out of the draft zone of the leading cyclist). At that point (and this is the part that many triathletes do not understand), if you suddenly reaccelerate to avoid being passed by the guy behind you, you are blocking him and can be called for a violation. So again, if there is a line of cyclists riding at minimum legal distance that are passing you, you have no choice but to drop at the end of the line. Then you can decide to pass again, but you would have no choice but to pass the entire line (because by passing the last bike in line, you would automatically enter the draft zone of the preceeding bike, which is only legal if you overtake it within the allowed 15 seconds).

Your post is only true if a line is exactly at the precise legal limit. In a real race thats not true. Once you have let the first guy pass you and continue to drift back, at some point the next guy will be 2 cm behind you. You are free to duel with him. I've never heard of a rider being given a penalty when he is 2cminto the front guys zone and trying to keep a rider from moving past. In real terms I let the front guy go then when I'm about legal distance behind him, If someone is trying to pass me slowly, I'll stand and accelerate a bit. That signals the next guy that you aren't going to give up your spot easily. Given an officials ability to precisely know the distance to the front rider I don't see a problem if it all occurs +/- 2feet from the back of the draft zone.

Styrrell

Still is for me(starting 3rd yr in the sport), I have trouble focusing in open waters but at the same time my swim has improved enough to where I dont worry about it as much... When it comes to races I just suck it up somehow

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"Fear is what drives you in the last part of a marathon in an Ironman. The body is depleted and the mind is fuzzy. Short course racing is driven by power and finese at the end of a race, Ironman demands so much more and is driven by will and mental strength." Chris McCormack

10/28/08 Dev Paul had 400w FTP!!!

No worries man - I call it like I see it. I'm all for drafters getting called out, but those who were riding clean ought to be recognized as well. It's sad that saying "congrats to x for riding clean" is even necessary - one would think it'd be like saying "congrats to x for swimming before getting on the bike". Unfortunately, that is not yet the case and there are enough cheaters to merit accolades for those that do play by the rules.

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Great... now she'll listen to me even less!

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Herbert, shall be interesting to see what he says now, since I have talked to him for a long time in the past about this.
I have also been to a couple of official training meetings, and have sat on the back of a motorcycle. It is SO easy to comment.
BUT, how many folks have spent the time to become an official? It is NOT as easy as it sounds. And no one wants to
give out a penality and make a customer upset. Now, in a lot of ways, littering, IMO, is a much bigger issue than drafting,
since we only have races when a community allows us to use their property. When we trash it, well, having no race the next
year sure solves the drafting issue.

So, how many folks who are commenting have ever been an official at a race? Yep, VERY few.
Without the officials, assuming this is a rule that the RD's REALLY want to enforce, nothing will improve.

But as been posted MANY times in the past, this whole issue starts with the RD picking a course. If they do not want drafting,
and many folks, they pick a course like Auburn. If they want lots of customers, lets be honest, they find a place where
the course is "easier".

After Jimmy trying different things over the years, I wonder what his thoughts are now. If you start with a pancake flat course, and a single
wave start, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to not have drafting. Period.

I really like the ideas of 2 races within a race. There are the ones racing for money, awards, etc. They should go first,
and all the officials stay with them. For the other 95%, let them enjoy why they signed up.

Dave

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

But as been posted MANY times in the past, this whole issue starts with the RD picking a course. If they do not want drafting,
and many folks, they pick a course like Auburn. If they want lots of customers, lets be honest, they find a place where
the course is "easier".

You keep repeating this but it makes no sense and is not true. They don't go searching out course venues for "easy" courses. They put them where they make sense with regards to the calendar, the weather, other races, travel, local communities, etc.

Ironman races will sell out wherever they put them, they don't need to search out easy courses. Are there issues to be addressed? Yes. Race directors searching for easy courses isn't one of them.

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Portside Athletics Blog

Sorry, but an RD COULD search out a course that does make drafting hard if that was their first objective.
It sure would not be mine! Worry about drafting would not even be on my list. The percentage that complain
are SO small compared to the total. So, just my honest opinion, and seems to me the results at races
prove my point.

Now, if IM did their race on the Auburn course, you think it would sell out? How about Silverman?

So, IMO, the RD searches out a course that makes the most customers happy, and them the most money.
This is a business, and what business does not do this?

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Since H20 is such an expert on IMNA Courses, I'd like to here which ones he has competed in, because no IM course is easy.

IMO, the RD searches out a course that makes the most customers happy

That's the truth. And a big part of that is a local community that will actively support the race. That is infinitely more important than an easy course so happy customers can draft. I would guess half of the mid-pack finishers don't even know what drafting is and that they could be possibly penalized for it. They are ignorant of the entire controversy I would guess.

There are the pros to whom it matters, the fast age-groupers trying to qualify for Kona and those age-groupers out there battling all day for an honest PB regardless of time. My bet is that many people out there to "do an Ironman" and there is nothing wrong with that, have no idea what drafting is. And honestly, that doesn't bother me too much as they don't effect the outcome of the race in any meaningful way (meaning they are taking prize money or Kona slots away from honest racers).

As for your repeated mentioning of Auburn, no one really cares about a USAT duathlon championship in my opinion. Don't get me wrong, I love duathlons, but comparing them to a WTC/NAS Ironman is ridiculous. Same goes for Silverman, with the Ironman logo and marketing machine an Iron-distance race could sell out in the Vegas area with no problem, although I would assume they wouldn't put it on close to IMAZ. It's not the difficulty of the course that is preventing Silverman from filing up.

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Portside Athletics Blog

Who's riding Johnyo's bike? :)

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Kyle Marcotte
Team Timex Multisport
http://teamtimex.timexblogs.com/ - http://calgarytriandbike.blogspot.com/ - http://twitter.com/dukyle/

acually, on this pic, i just made a VERY sneaky pass on MAt lieto before the turn around so i would be first to grad the special need bag....

he gave me plenty of road.... but...as i did the turn around... i forgot that i was running a front hooker brake that as NO POWER!!!! so i went straight and pass the turn around and lock my back wheel,. ...mat was supr nice to give me room as we made the turn together at he same time as i fuckup the turnaround....

long story short... he went from 40m behind me to rght behind me as i did a extra 20m of riding!!!! we grabbed our bag and he rode away from all of us...

now, if you were to post the other pic.... THAT one speak for itself...

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

What photo are you talking about?

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Kyle Marcotte
Team Timex Multisport
http://teamtimex.timexblogs.com/ - http://calgarytriandbike.blogspot.com/ - http://twitter.com/dukyle/

I'm glad Jonnyo provided clarification on that, as I thought it might be a sighting of the first P4C tandem.

YEP that one.........Berhnard did PLENTY of this.

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

AH! I wondered if that was you! I wasn't in much of a mood to be finding out though...
Well shit. Nice to meet you. Hopefully next year we will meet under much better circumstances!

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______________________________________
I know I'm promiscuous, but in a classy way

That suggests I ever listened to you at all :P

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______________________________________
I know I'm promiscuous, but in a classy way

Damn, girl... Why you gotta do me like that?

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<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
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This was my 10th Ironman race, and I've never felt so disgruntled with cheating. At IMCDA this year I noticed a number of women who either didn't body mark or did get it done, and rubbed their numbers off. I'm assuming they do this to hide their age. They also wrapped their race bib up in their belt so their name and number was hidden. As an athlete competing for an age group placing, this frustrates the hell out of me. I would love for the others in my AG to not know my age and name, but in the same breath, I value knowing who they are and I'm competing with them, so keep it fair and leave it visible. Is it against the rules not to body mark? I don't suspect it is but maybe it should be.

Drafting... A pack of men riding 5 abreast at the front and several deep went by me. (There was one little gal sitting in the middle, but it was mostly men.) An official came by, and told them to be careful not to pass to far out into the lane of traffic as there were cars on the road. Nothing said about the pack. A few minutes later a female official came by and said "what's going on here boys? Let's break it up." She didn't give a penalty and they didn't move out of the pack at all. I pulled back and lost them but was frustrated.

After the out and back I watched a fellow draft for a long time as I worked my way up to him. Once passing I said "Hey Jeremy... how's the draft? You've been sitting on that wheel for a long time." He looked at me all bug eyed and took off riding hard in what I consider an admition of guilt. A few minutes later I was with another group of fellows. They would pass me on the uphill and I would take them on the downhill. I made a comment about it... a happy kind of "we'll be seeing each other a bunch if we keep this up" comment. The next time one fellow passed me he suggested I join his wheel. I said no thanks and continued on, but was very surprised.

Finally, at the awards presentation I was told by an athlete who placed above me in our AG that the second place athlete was in a large pack on the bike when she was passed. This athlete then went on to run a stellar marathon and hold on for second. I have no idea how long she was in the pack, or how much she drafted, or even if it was true, but it made me realize how much people are willing to do to get that Kona spot, which she did.

I don't believe it's impossible not to draft to Osoyoos, and I'm in the masses. I work hard to stay out of it, but also expend a lot of energy forcing a pass when I enter the draft zone. Thank you Scott for being honest and opening up the topic. I think your comment on "if being in the draft zone meant you had to work harder then everyone would make sure they stayed out of it." (That's not the exact quote but the gist of the comment is hopefully there.)

On a final "rule" note... why does NA sports put so many finishers running down the chute with 2 kids, a wife, parent and a baby etc. on the video when it's against the rules to do so? I have 2 daughters, both between the allowable ages of 6 and 16 who I would have loved to have finish with me. Because of the rules, I finished with one in CDA and one in Canada. I'm lucky I had 2 options so they both got a chance. I'm good with the rule allowing one child, but if you're going to make it, why highlight the number of folks breaking it all in the name of a warm mushy finishers video. It's odd I think.

Maybe every race director should take a page from Wade at Great White North Half Ironman. Drafters names are highlighted in green on results and labeled with the word "penalty" AND they have to run a 1k lap before they head out on the course. He hits drafters where it hurts them most... in the run split. He's serious about a clean race.

Congrats to all the athletes who completed Canada riding a clean race on their own power. To the rest of you, who purposefully cheated, I wish you many flats and broken chains in your future races.

Thanks for that John, I appreciate the class!!

I was wondering what happened on that turn? I hope I did give you the room you needed, for a sec I thought we where going to have an embarrassing crash!! That is all I need, take out the local favorite!!

Oh, and I do appreciate the pictures, and how that can seem to prove different things. But, can i suggest something? Let's just stop this craziness. We who raced our own race know if we did or didn't cheat. Although this picture makes it look like I am right on jonny o' he explains it well. What if Jonny wasn't as class as he is? We would interpret this as a blatant cheat, and what I have worked hardest for in my racing, racing with integrity, would be lost to those reading this post. Pictures can tell a completely different story from reality.

Please just leave it to us, I have started the ball rolling and will get together with some of those who raced on Sunday and have a calm discussion with the officials. We are professionals, and we have to take care of this as professionals, no more bashing on public sites. I am glad we are all so passionate about legal racing, and looking forward to this thread encouraging us to take steps to make that possible.

Thanks for your time and support in this matter- Matt Lieto

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-Matt Lieto

very well said, you and your brother Chris(met him at Nautica South Beach) are both a class act... good luck racing this yr

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"Fear is what drives you in the last part of a marathon in an Ironman. The body is depleted and the mind is fuzzy. Short course racing is driven by power and finese at the end of a race, Ironman demands so much more and is driven by will and mental strength." Chris McCormack

10/28/08 Dev Paul had 400w FTP!!!

What I find funny is that many on this thread and others who are anti drafting & even start posts on how bad it is, time and time again they register for another IMNA/NAS race knowing its going to be the same (then bitch again). Seem a bit hypocritical to me to bitch about drafting then condone it.

if you are bitching about something then registering you really are sending a mixed message to the RD, IMNA/NAS and the officials basically saying don't worry about the drafting.

Your entry fee dollars speak much louder then you moaning on ST. Maybe a nice email to the RD and IMNA/NAS about how you can't continue to be a customer would be a good idea as well.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

I don't know if that's fair - a lot of people assumedly enjoy IM enough that they'll put up with drafting along with high race fees, in-person signups, and any number of other annoyances in return for the experience of racing IM-branded events. That doesn't necessarily mean that drafting doesn't drive them up the wall. Just that there aren't that many other options.

It's easy to say 'don't sign up if you don't like the drafting' - but for a lot of people, the alternative of not participating at all is just not realistic.

I guess what I should have said is that if you are constantly signing up for races that tend to always have lots of drafting then whining about it, either don't sign up or don't whine.

There are a ton of other options beside Mdot races, I can think of at least 7 off the top of my head, 2 on each side of the Mississippi, one in Canada, one in Germany and I forgot where Embrunman (sp) is.

EDIT: Make that 2 in Canada for 8 non M-dot IM races. Seems like a fair bit of options to me.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

I wasn't going to get involved in this thread, but thought I'd throw my two cents in to what you're saying. I don't agree with it at all. The basics of this race and all Mdot are great, but the drafting issue happens to be one big problem that needs fixing.

You're saying for people to either stop 1) complaining about drafting or 2) not race. Do you have a driver's license? My guess is that you 1) complain about traffic from time to time and 2) haven't stopped driving.

1) Do you really think if no one ever says anything about it, it will fix the problem? Obviously not, so that one is out the window.
2) Do you really think everyone who doesn't like drafting is going to stop racing? While of course this would send a big message, of course it is NOT going to happen. So that doesn't help anything either.

There has to be a REALISTIC way to complete the feedback loop. All parties should be involved in providing feedback and acting on it. There has to be a dialogue and the issue has to be presented to those who have the power and will to do something about it. I'm not sure a 7 page thread on an internet forum is the place for the changes to happen, but it is a place to begin a discussion and get a small group moving in the right direction.

Bottom line - people are going to want to improve the events in which they participate in. While continuing to participate in them.

ML-

Could you be kind enough to keep me abridged of the results of your meeting or find a way that I may be able to add to it? Much appreciated.

Congrats on your race and your Kona slot.

---

36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App

It's up to the race organisers to be creative. Technology needs to be used to offset the cost and it must be discrete because that is what is the failure point with the current approach. Most of the technology is there and deployed on the course anyway with the timing mats. Increase the frequency, add some dummy ones in. And yes Dev, loops of shame to shred the legs.

GPS instead of present chips - Polar, Suunto would love to make more $ (Timex is too cheap). Programed to calculate time in others zone if that exceeds... but some researches has to be done if it's possible not to be in a zone for thousands athletes exiting water within 10-20 minutes

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Hare Krishna

>>I guess what I should have said is that if you are constantly signing up for races that tend to always have lots of drafting then whining about it, either don't sign up or don't whine.<<

And then the cheaters will have won...races full of 2,500 drafters. Nice.

clm

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

Just two ideas and not sure if they are of any use but:

• Allow the athletes in the pro wave to police themselves. If a referee gets a complaint about an athlete or athletes from 3 or more pros then thats a penalty. However the pro's who make the complaint must be willing to put thier name to the complaint. Unfortuantely this relies on the integrity of the athletes to not abuse the system.
• For multi lap courses and loops, get 10 or 15 normal athletes to act as eyes on the course. These athletes could sign up before the race and the job is to inform the referee of any packs or groups they see. ideally you need some FOP, MOP and BOP athletes, not neccesarilly in an 'A' Race, TBH they dont even have to be doing the full race, just number them and send them out at intervals. On a multi lap course they should also see the leaders come through as well. If you dont advertise who they are then the athletes should have to ride clean as they do not know where the penalties are coming from. Unlike the current system where the backman seems to be the one who listens out for the motorbikes! Need at least 5 reports to get a penalty. Should not be too hard to find people as most Rd's will have athletes that they know and trust who they can call upon.

All penalties would be given as time penalties after the race, although i suppose some system could be used to give the peanlties in t2. Also make the time penalties meanigful 30mins or 1hr also remove the hawaii option for IM as well.

These may not work, but you never know are are arguably the cheapest option.

I wish I would have to ad to that picture of front pro pack, but don't have anything sensational. I remember that I pass you Scott in the very beginning of the race.. just before first uphill I notice Jason Shortis working hard and went by (he remind me myself fist time doing IMC last year and I was wondering if it will cost him same - I think it was - so as Matt said, I had my plan on easy first half and tried to stick with it), there was already quite few guys around.. at the top we got Jazz and on the way to Oliver Chris Brown. later few guys with Jonnyo and some more. There was not much choice but keep 10 meters on the first flat part..... I eat my oatmeal at the beginning of Richter and went to last position, then group start braking up and I moved to the last position of the first group expecting use my descending position to get further, so I did and remember Matt well ahead of the rest on rollers, then I dropped him on another downhill and later at the end of rollers moved to the 3rd passing probably Austrian(?) ... just before out and back section TV motorcycle told me that I have about 2 minutes on others. then I saw them coming on turnarounds and figured that I can't brake away on the flat, so at the end of out and back Matt went buy and either he put the hummer down or I was tired after my attempt, but I couldn't keep up, few kilometers latter you "attacked" - at least it looked to me like that since i didn't know what was going on behind, i should say I was a bit mad about that move thinking that you where sitting behind in pack all that 130k and now such a stupid pace increasing (I wished you will pay for it on the run : ) so did I for my moments of fare play this year again, even little later then last year : (
looks like I missed drafting situation and can't say about anybody anything, but did see that fresh austrian legs for 20+k in front of me - now I understand that it's not that I became so slow......... was nice to know
PS. still, to my opinion the fact that there is no drug test at IMC is more disturbing
Sincerely
Andriy Yastrebov

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Hare Krishna

The problem is - this isn't just limited to NAS races. Any race with a significant amount of people has problems.

Spirit of Racine for example - when I was riding back in to transition (mile 30-35) and later wave folks were headed out (mile 20-25), it was like one long train of drafting. Just to many people. Waves did not solve that; although they did hand out a LOT of penalties that day.

The solution isn't doing other races - it is either 1> making the fields smaller, 2> putting HUGE gaps between waves (ick), or 3> making the penalty for drafting severe enough that it won't happen (although officals need to call penalties correctly to prevent wrecking the race of something that was incidental).

So let's recap. Here is the top 8 for the race :

1. Bryan Rhodes (NZL) 8:30:12
2. Bernhard Hiebl (AUT) 8:34:34
3. Jasper Blake (CAN) 8:36:08
4. Andriy Yaserbov (UKR) 8:37:11
5. Justin Daerr (USA) 8:37:34
6. Kyle Marcotte (CAN) 8:44:30
7. Matt Lieto (USA) 8:45:42
8. Courtney Ogden (AUS) 8:47:04

Apparently, Bryan, Jasper, Andriy, Justin, Kyle, Matt and Courtney did not cheat (either because someone said so or they defended themselves on this thread).

Who's left then ? Bernhard Hiebl, and that's it ? It was not a pack then ? What gives ?

In the end, it looks like there was no drafting at IMC among pros (apart from one guy from Austria). Case closed :-)

Brain, could not agree with you more. You see a few of us who walk your talk, and do not come onto ST and go nuts about drafting.
Running is supposed to be a release from our normal jobs, not the same pressure cooker.

Oh well, it has been interesting seeing the same comments about/from the pro's as the AGers. No one ever admits
to doing it. But, sure are lots of folks saying it happens. Lots say the officials do not give out enough red cards,
others say they better not give out a lot since they will ruin folks days who were not drafting.

Just glad I have not allowed myself to get sucked into races that would drive me nuts. Clearwater was on my list,
and I just said why. Just because marketing called it a "championship" race?

I was thinking last night how Jimmy deals with this. Meaning, if I have learned on thing in life, and that is after a few times
hitting ones head against a wall, maybe it is time to move.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Yep, these FEW that bitch are things RD's hear all the time, and just toss.
Again, the VAST majority of Emails to RD's are what a great race they had and they will be back.
Bottom line, just follow the money.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

With all due respect to DesertDude and H20fun, if I were to not race every race I saw blatant drafting, I wouldn't get to race at all. It is just more apparent in a race with over 2000 people in it. Personally, I see two issues.

1. Penalties aren't strong enough. You tell someone that if they are caught drafting, they will lose 15 minutes off their time. That sends a message. especially to the top dudes.
2. My experience is people more and more could care less about anyone else and only care about themselves. The attitude of racers really needs to change.

I have yet to do a race where I haven't seen blatant drafting. Whenever I have asked the RD (VERY nicely mind you) about it, I always get sent to OAT. I ask OAT about it, I get sent back to the RD. Nobody takes responsibility for it. Which again, seems typical in this day and age.

For what it is worth, I was sitting at my keyboard last November all set to jump into IM Florida 2008 as soon as registration opened. I raced it in 2004 and didn't find drafting an issue where I was on the course (1hr swim/5.15 bike).

The mass hysteria on here about how bad the drafting was last year made me back off and I'm glad i did. I raced Norseman instead, best race I have ever done. Not only did I not see any drafting (even though their rules allow you to ride side by side on the hills), I only saw about 8 other riders all day!

Certain races are a definite no for me, Clearwater being the obvious one, Silverman has a big appeal however.

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Richard Melik | I work for the following companies | Zwift.com | Freespeed Bike Fit (UK)
Manager | David McNamee

You won't regret Silverman. Most fun race/week I have had. And I DNF'd!! :)

Hey Dave - do you know how accurate the GPS systems are on the Athlete Tracker in your sig line? Do they use WAAS?

Not sure. I know this has been talked about, but GPS depending on how many sats you have, may not be good enough?
BUT, if you had it set for 6 second pings, you SURE could see if a train has been going for a long time!!!

It sure would be the best device to use now I am aware of. Just think if all the pros and top AGers had one,
and we were all watching live on line. Do you think it is possible that we could tell they were drafting issues?
Do you think some of these folks would think twice about drafting if they knew they were being watched?

MA is going to be at the next IM races I believe. Rather than a first come first serve, maybe the pros want
to talk to John and see if they will all agree to wear and we can see how it works and it if improves anything.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

The big issue is wether or not the system can determine position accurately enough. My Garmin with WAAS (Wide Area Augmentation System) is usually good to about 14'. ~5 meters as your margin of error would make for a pretty sloppy draft zone. If it was accurate enough, writing software to give you meanigful data on competitors, their position WRT draft zones, time in zone, etc. is all possible. The RD could set parameters in the application to define what a drafting violation looks like and the s/w could create an event log, puke out a notification, or both (or any number of other representations of the data). It would be interesting to take a few sets out and ride legal, then ride tight and see what kind of data you can collect.

So what happens if the battery dies/system dies at some point during the race?

I imagine the system would stop reporting your position.

I'm not suggesting this as a replacement to draft marshals, but it has the potential to be a useful tool if commercially available equipment would meet the requirements.

With military spec gear, this is a no-brainer.

Waves did not solve that

Indeed. If you do not think carefully about the waves and really think it through with the right people starting at the right time with the right amount of gap, wave starts can actually make the situation worse out on the course with regards to drafting.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I just sent John this link to comment on.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Here's a story for you, related to this thread...

In early 2006, I was riding very strong, and had an injury which really affected my running. I needed to get a gap on the bike, so I was especially sensitive to cheaters. I did a non-drafting race, which I will not state the name, but it was NOT an M-dot event. I had a decent swim, with 3 riders up in front of me, one off the front, 2 others clearly working together. There were no officials on the course, unlike previous years for this race, and there was a good amount of money which only went 3 deep.

I caught the 2nd and 3rd place riders by the end of the first loop of 2, (out and backs, so everyone can see everyone), and immediately they went to my wheel. I tried to break away, and they would work together to keep me right with them. They both sat in my draft, and I literally sat up and confronted them about it 2 times in the race. Their response was nothing. No words, no movements, nothing. The second time I confronted them, I was upset, and made it clear. Still nothing.

They continued to stay in the draft, no matter the moves I made. We came off the bike, and one of them pulled away from me, while the other fell back on the run. Another ride who rode clean and alone, caught me and went on to get second, the cheater 3rd, and me 4th, and out of the money. Immediately after crossing the finish line, I went to the race director to tell him the situation, as now I was directly affected monetarily.

The race director believed me, and went thru the following:
- First, he was going to give the cheater a 3 min penalty, causing him to move to 5th place. The cheater threw a major fit, calling me a "f--king a--hole" to his friends, right in front of my soon-to-be-wife.
- After the RD realized he was in a situation of my word against his, he decided to tie us. The cheater threw a fit because it was still going to cost him money.
- After hearing this, he gathered all the elites, (about 10-12 of us), and held a meeting before the awards. I explained what happened in the meeting, including the fact that I caught them, never was able to drop them, confronted them twice, and yet no response. He asked everyone if they saw cheating. Every single elite stated something to the effect of, "Did it look like they were drafting? Yes. Can we be for sure? No, because we weren't right there." No one was willing to stand up and call them out. In the end it was still their word against mine.
- In the end, the RD did not change the results. He added money to the prize purse, and gave it to me for 4th place. I went thru the awards, accepted the check, and immediately following that walked right back up to the RD and gave him the check back. I told him "The point was never the money. I wanted those guys to know I will not accept cheating and I will call them out for it." The race was also a benefit for a charity organization, and I did not want to take money from the charity because of a cheater. (Not so ironically, one of those cheaters ended up getting disqualified after winning another race, for cheating. Hmmm).

So the point is, asking the athletes to police themselves is not realistic. These guys don't want to make themselves targets against the cheaters, and are worried about retaliation or other negative consequences from speaking out.

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Jim Vance
http://TodaysPlan.com.au (Disclosure: I am contracted with Today's Plan)
http://www.CoachVance.com/
Twitter @jimvance

So the point is, asking the athletes to police themselves is not realistic. These guys don't want to make themselves targets against the cheaters, and are worried about retaliation or other negative consequences from speaking out. \\


I predict that it takes the ST cops about 10 minutes to figure who you are talking about.. I hope that you were not really trying to keep his name out of the papers.......

Very admirable your stance, and actions in the face of what is being discussed here...

I reiterate the suggestion I had: Sensors that don't necessarily report a riders position via GPS, but sensors that record/send the presence of other sensors around them. They can be ID'd in the same way that race chips are. If a sensor records the presence of another unique sensor within a radius of 8 feet for over a certain length of time, it transmits an alert.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

If folks follow rules, you need no babysitters. So, something is better than nothing.
And even if the battery died, the racer would have no idea this happened.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

The problem is cheating. It is perpetuated by cheating.

if there is one thing I have learned in the technology sector, if a user can find a way to break something, they will. Either on purpose or by accident. Technology is not the answer here in my opinion. That doesn't get to the root of the issue.

Boy do I agree with you 100%. This is why the ITU did for Oly distance what they did.
Sure do not hear any fighting about clean races from them.

No flat course with lots of folks will EVER have all the drafting issues resolved.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Jim,

Good story. Thanks for sharing. It may be a good time to point out that if you multiply your story times 10, that's what you had going on at an ITU World Cup race prior to allowing drafting on the bike. All kinds of DQ's, appeals, counter-appeals, arguing, back-stabbing, no winner, no final official results and no one, not any of the athletes wanting to take any responsibility for any of it. So in their wisdom, in one fell swoop, the ITU got rid of all of that - swim/bike/run however you want and the first across the line wins. Simple. Easy to understand. Easy to offciate.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I have to admit, the thought of a draft-legal IM both intrigues and disgusts me. :) I think I would rather watch it than participate in it.

Agreed. But, how are you going to convince 2000 people not to draft? We can't even get people to stop speeding.

The only way to truly stop something is to make the penalty too prohibitive to risk. As in, first drafting violation, 45 minute pit stop. Second violation, DQ. Repeated violations over a couple races, 1 year suspension from NAS events.

Think about it. Would you speed if the penalty for speeding was say, $500 or $1000 per mile over the limit? That would make a 5 mph speeding fine $2500.

John

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---

Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

remember, the devise (GPS, cameras, etc.) not necessarily has to be very compact and don't have to swim and run with athlete - official install it in the morning before the race and it may fit in water bottle holder, helmet or have nice aerodynamic shape behind the seat or in front of the bar (which would be embraced by many on that forum : )... reception can be improved by antenna on the frame. As for the contr-action - it's cold war and companies will make profit of improving on it. Technology did help a lot many times - just think about 2500 athletes splits with a stopwatches . .

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Hare Krishna

Lets see, no one ever admits they draft. So, what happened in the past when drafting was a DQ, and lot of
folks got nailed. Were the RD's happy that their customers were upset? Why did they change drafting from
a DQ to a position foul? And has an official EVER given out a drafting penalty that a racer has agree to.
And there are issues getting officials now. .....

Steve yep, ITU has done the only thing to deal with and fix the issue.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I don't draft but you aren't going to get me to stop speeding!

---

<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
Get Fitter!
Proud member of the Smartasscrew, MONSTER CLUB
Get your FIX today?

Thanks Mark, will do. Again, good effort out there on Sunday. Good to see.

---

-Matt Lieto

<< yep, ITU has done the only thing to deal with and fix the issue.

what did ITU do to fix the issue?
They didn't want to police a pro race with 60 entrants so they made thier races draft legal?
They don't want to police their age group Worlds races either and basically tell the officials to keep the pen and pad in their pocket. ITU Worlds at the age group level looks nothing more then a shorter version of Ironman. So I think it is kind of hypocritical of you Dave to spout off about how you'll never do another Ironman race because of the drafting.

<< This is why I could never consider
clearwater. Why spend all that money to just be in a draft fest.

<< I do not sign up for races like this! I do walk my talk with my money.
So, I have never had an issue in a race in my 12 years of racing.

I don't mean to pick on you, it seems everyone else here does enough of that, but seriously, there is a disconnect in what you say and do.

---

Mike Plumb, TriPower MultiSports
Professional Running, Cycling and Multisport Coaching, F.I.S.T. Certified
http://www.tripower.org

I guess you're not going to get any replies to your post.

I was thinking the same thing as you. Turns out this was much ado about nothing!

Mike, where did I ever say I would not do an IM race bacause of drafting? I have no desire to do another IM
race because of what I believe are long term health issues from doing that distance. But, if I got into IMH,
I would do it, drafting or not since my goal would only be to finish in 17 hours.

And yes, I did not consider clearwater based on comments of drafting. Why would I want to do a race
where I spent all that time and money to brag about a new bike PR. I also have no desire to
do that race distance either, which is why I got my money back from vineman 70.3 this year.

Sorry, in my 2, but only 2 ITU worlds, I saw very little drafting. Must be because I was so far back
from the leaders.

So, please, help me see the disconnect between what I say and do, since I am well known
for walking my talk. (Now, I do like to think outloud, which have some thinking I go back and forth
on issues)

The only race I can think of that has a section of drafting that I sign up for is the SJIT.
These is a road section about 4 miles in length that has so many bikes that we are ALL drafting each other.
Now, if going 10 to 15 mph is drafting then I guess I was cheating.


Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

They didn't want to police a pro race with 60 entrants so they made thier races draft legal?

Mike,

Did you read Jim V's post? Did you read my follow-up post on this. These are not pretty pictures. It was a messy, ugly confusing scene and no one was happy at the ITU races. And then it was all gone! Now this is just for the Pros - the AG situation is a whole different kettle of fish - that still is, messy, ugly, confusing and with no one happy!! :)

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I love non-drafting IMs, but I would do a draft-legal IM in a heartbeat. It would be so awesome - tactics would actually change based on the course and competition, the swim would have more meaning, races would probably be closer and more exciting. Sometimes I wonder if the whole point of IM is to see who can eat the most while holding 71% of FTP for an entire day. It would probably be a mess with a 2000 person race though!

I agree, make it so it hurts if they get caught, really hurt.

The thought of 2500 triathletes drafting and trying to ride in packs terrifies me...

---

<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
Get Fitter!
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Get your FIX today?

Steve, that assumes we never get ITU type AG races. I still have hope USAT may start a series,
and the bitching on drafting for those races go away. Instead, the bikers will complain they get no respect,
and can feel what the swimmers have felt for years with wetsuits being legal.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

IMO, no way would any smart RD do a draft legal race with that many folks. They would be kept small, maybe
at most a few hundred. And again, the draft legal race I do every year as very very few real drafting.
Most folks just find every excuse in the book so they do not have to learn how to swim to compete.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Me too. I would hate to see any of the branded IM races go draft legal. I would not feel safe.

Let me add to that by saying that those who think that part of the solution is to change the attitude of the athletes are wrong. In any group you will have those who follow the rules because of their good character and those who will break any rule if they can get an advantage unless they fear the chances and consequences of getting caught. Unfortunately we will never succeed in persuading everyone to follow the rules out of a sense of honour. The only solution to the drafting problem, if like me you want to preserve the no drafting rule, is to rigorously enforce the rule and to make the penalty meaningful. (I like the lap(s) of shame idea)

With respect to races like IMC where huge numbers of people come out of the water at the same time (1:07 - 1:20) you don't need to deal with every guy who has not complied perfectly with the rule. there are too many people on the course for that. But there is a significant difference betweeen long linesof people who are trying ot comply with the spirit of the rule and those who sit right on someones wheel for an extended time or worse (and more obvious) ride in large packs. I think if you deal with those guys (penalize them, the whole pack if it is a pack situation) you will have solved most of the problems.

The more room for the riders at any point on the course, the more strictly I would enforce the rule.

Does this then mean that the marshalls will be asked to make some judgement calls in enforcing the rule? Of course it does, but that's part of the job.

For the pros at the front end of the field, they only ride close together if they choose to, they have lots of room to spread out on the course. I would strictly enforce the letter of the rule for them.

One more thing, if a marshall pulls over and penalizes an entire pack, is it possible that some innocent rider that has just been overtaken by the pack will be unfairly penalized? Of course it is. Justice is never perfect. But if it means we catch 20 cheaters who are getting a huge advantage by riding in a pack, I am willing to take the chance that I and others may on rare occaisions be unfairly penalized. I am already penalized by the advantage they get from riding in a pack. I would prefer to have the pack penalized with me.

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Grant

It would probably be a mess with a 2000 person race though!

You know everyone says this( and a part of me agrees that it would, based on the bike handling skills of most triathletes), but there are all kinds of big charity group rides these days with thousands of riders and they can ride anyway they like, and the problems are minimal. Why would it be such a disaster in a triathlon?

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

You know everyone says this( and a part of me agrees that it would, based on the bike handling skills of most triathletes), but there are all kinds of big charity groups rides these days with thousands of riders and they can ride anyway they like, and the problems are minimal. Why would it be such a disaster in a triathlon?

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They're not races, though...and I hate it when people race me during those things :)

And everyone in an IM race, even the 16 hour finishers, are "racing"

Man, when I see them on TV, it looks more like war survival.

Dave

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

1. Aero bars (though I'd hope they ban them for draft legal format)
2. It's a race, not a charity ride
3. They're triathletes. :p

I have been hit (ridden into from behind) during the Becel Ride for Heart in Toronto. It's a cool ride because they close the Gardiner and the Don to cars and let you ride on it, but DAMN - what a mess!

---

<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
Get Fitter!
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As I keep saying Steve, the most vocal probably do not want to learn how to swim, which means they could not compete in
a draft legal race, they would be too far back. Just look what happened to some at the Olympics.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I think that is why the draft marshals should have helmet cams. When they show a card, make sure the camera can see it as well as the athlete. Link the penalty list to YouTube of the infraction. It would be hard to explain that away on a forum.

Start small, say just with the pro field. Head ref could review later to help improve/educate calls if needed.

I also think any arguing with or complaining, even talking about a penalty with a ref should be an instant DQ. That is total BS that a ref should not have to deal with. Announce at the meetings and guides that it is a DQ.

<< So, please, help me see the disconnect between what I say and do, since I am well known
for walking my talk.

the disconnect is that you say you don't go to races that are draftfests and don't consider Worlds to be just that.
I wasn't at Vancouver so I can't comment on that, but in the nearly 20 years of going to Worlds off an on, every single one that I have been too looked no different then any of the Ironman races that I have been too. The last one I went too was Honolulu and that was nothing more then one big long pace line, yet no drafting penalties were handed out.

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Mike Plumb, TriPower MultiSports
Professional Running, Cycling and Multisport Coaching, F.I.S.T. Certified
http://www.tripower.org

Look, Khai, I am just trying to toss out some ideas for a problem that looks to be completely intractable - and get's worse every year. It's the type of problem where ALL ideas need to be put on the table.

For this one, everyone predicts disaster, but, I don't think it would be that bad. Of course no aero bars and road(real) bikes only. Bummer, I guess, if you just bought a Cervelo P3C! :)

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog