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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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Waves did not solve that

Indeed. If you do not think carefully about the waves and really think it through with the right people starting at the right time with the right amount of gap, wave starts can actually make the situation worse out on the course with regards to drafting.



Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [lakercr] [ In reply to ]
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I just sent John this link to comment on.

Dave

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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [Sheddy] [ In reply to ]
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Just two ideas and not sure if they are of any use but:
  • Allow the athletes in the pro wave to police themselves. If a referee gets a complaint about an athlete or athletes from 3 or more pros then thats a penalty. However the pro's who make the complaint must be willing to put thier name to the complaint. Unfortuantely this relies on the integrity of the athletes to not abuse the system.

Here's a story for you, related to this thread...

In early 2006, I was riding very strong, and had an injury which really affected my running. I needed to get a gap on the bike, so I was especially sensitive to cheaters. I did a non-drafting race, which I will not state the name, but it was NOT an M-dot event. I had a decent swim, with 3 riders up in front of me, one off the front, 2 others clearly working together. There were no officials on the course, unlike previous years for this race, and there was a good amount of money which only went 3 deep.

I caught the 2nd and 3rd place riders by the end of the first loop of 2, (out and backs, so everyone can see everyone), and immediately they went to my wheel. I tried to break away, and they would work together to keep me right with them. They both sat in my draft, and I literally sat up and confronted them about it 2 times in the race. Their response was nothing. No words, no movements, nothing. The second time I confronted them, I was upset, and made it clear. Still nothing.

They continued to stay in the draft, no matter the moves I made. We came off the bike, and one of them pulled away from me, while the other fell back on the run. Another ride who rode clean and alone, caught me and went on to get second, the cheater 3rd, and me 4th, and out of the money. Immediately after crossing the finish line, I went to the race director to tell him the situation, as now I was directly affected monetarily.

The race director believed me, and went thru the following:
- First, he was going to give the cheater a 3 min penalty, causing him to move to 5th place. The cheater threw a major fit, calling me a "f--king a--hole" to his friends, right in front of my soon-to-be-wife.
- After the RD realized he was in a situation of my word against his, he decided to tie us. The cheater threw a fit because it was still going to cost him money.
- After hearing this, he gathered all the elites, (about 10-12 of us), and held a meeting before the awards. I explained what happened in the meeting, including the fact that I caught them, never was able to drop them, confronted them twice, and yet no response. He asked everyone if they saw cheating. Every single elite stated something to the effect of, "Did it look like they were drafting? Yes. Can we be for sure? No, because we weren't right there." No one was willing to stand up and call them out. In the end it was still their word against mine.
- In the end, the RD did not change the results. He added money to the prize purse, and gave it to me for 4th place. I went thru the awards, accepted the check, and immediately following that walked right back up to the RD and gave him the check back. I told him "The point was never the money. I wanted those guys to know I will not accept cheating and I will call them out for it." The race was also a benefit for a charity organization, and I did not want to take money from the charity because of a cheater. (Not so ironically, one of those cheaters ended up getting disqualified after winning another race, for cheating. Hmmm).

So the point is, asking the athletes to police themselves is not realistic. These guys don't want to make themselves targets against the cheaters, and are worried about retaliation or other negative consequences from speaking out.

Jim Vance
http://TodaysPlan.com.au (Disclosure: I am contracted with Today's Plan)
http://www.CoachVance.com/
Twitter @jimvance
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [JimVance] [ In reply to ]
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So the point is, asking the athletes to police themselves is not realistic. These guys don't want to make themselves targets against the cheaters, and are worried about retaliation or other negative consequences from speaking out. \\


I predict that it takes the ST cops about 10 minutes to figure who you are talking about.. I hope that you were not really trying to keep his name out of the papers.......

Very admirable your stance, and actions in the face of what is being discussed here...
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [lakercr] [ In reply to ]
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The big issue is wether or not the system can determine position accurately enough. My Garmin with WAAS (Wide Area Augmentation System) is usually good to about 14'. ~5 meters as your margin of error would make for a pretty sloppy draft zone. If it was accurate enough, writing software to give you meanigful data on competitors, their position WRT draft zones, time in zone, etc. is all possible. The RD could set parameters in the application to define what a drafting violation looks like and the s/w could create an event log, puke out a notification, or both (or any number of other representations of the data). It would be interesting to take a few sets out and ride legal, then ride tight and see what kind of data you can collect.

I reiterate the suggestion I had: Sensors that don't necessarily report a riders position via GPS, but sensors that record/send the presence of other sensors around them. They can be ID'd in the same way that race chips are. If a sensor records the presence of another unique sensor within a radius of 8 feet for over a certain length of time, it transmits an alert.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [M~] [ In reply to ]
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If folks follow rules, you need no babysitters. So, something is better than nothing.
And even if the battery died, the racer would have no idea this happened.

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Hmm so I can bitch all I want about something then go perpuate the problem. great logic.


The problem is cheating. It is perpetuated by cheating.
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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if there is one thing I have learned in the technology sector, if a user can find a way to break something, they will. Either on purpose or by accident. Technology is not the answer here in my opinion. That doesn't get to the root of the issue.
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [M~] [ In reply to ]
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Boy do I agree with you 100%. This is why the ITU did for Oly distance what they did.
Sure do not hear any fighting about clean races from them.

No flat course with lots of folks will EVER have all the drafting issues resolved.

Dave

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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [JimVance] [ In reply to ]
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Jim,

Good story. Thanks for sharing. It may be a good time to point out that if you multiply your story times 10, that's what you had going on at an ITU World Cup race prior to allowing drafting on the bike. All kinds of DQ's, appeals, counter-appeals, arguing, back-stabbing, no winner, no final official results and no one, not any of the athletes wanting to take any responsibility for any of it. So in their wisdom, in one fell swoop, the ITU got rid of all of that - swim/bike/run however you want and the first across the line wins. Simple. Easy to understand. Easy to offciate.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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I have to admit, the thought of a draft-legal IM both intrigues and disgusts me. :) I think I would rather watch it than participate in it.
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [M~] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
if there is one thing I have learned in the technology sector, if a user can find a way to break something, they will. Either on purpose or by accident. Technology is not the answer here in my opinion. That doesn't get to the root of the issue.
Agreed. But, how are you going to convince 2000 people not to draft? We can't even get people to stop speeding.

The only way to truly stop something is to make the penalty too prohibitive to risk. As in, first drafting violation, 45 minute pit stop. Second violation, DQ. Repeated violations over a couple races, 1 year suspension from NAS events.

Think about it. Would you speed if the penalty for speeding was say, $500 or $1000 per mile over the limit? That would make a 5 mph speeding fine $2500.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [ In reply to ]
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remember, the devise (GPS, cameras, etc.) not necessarily has to be very compact and don't have to swim and run with athlete - official install it in the morning before the race and it may fit in water bottle holder, helmet or have nice aerodynamic shape behind the seat or in front of the bar (which would be embraced by many on that forum : )... reception can be improved by antenna on the frame. As for the contr-action - it's cold war and companies will make profit of improving on it. Technology did help a lot many times - just think about 2500 athletes splits with a stopwatches . .

Hare Krishna
Last edited by: triatma: Aug 28, 08 10:53
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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Lets see, no one ever admits they draft. So, what happened in the past when drafting was a DQ, and lot of
folks got nailed. Were the RD's happy that their customers were upset? Why did they change drafting from
a DQ to a position foul? And has an official EVER given out a drafting penalty that a racer has agree to.
And there are issues getting officials now. .....

Steve yep, ITU has done the only thing to deal with and fix the issue.

Dave

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Last edited by: h2ofun: Aug 28, 08 11:25
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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... how are you going to convince 2000 people not to draft? We can't even get people to stop speeding.

I don't draft but you aren't going to get me to stop speeding!


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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [MarkyV] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Mark, will do. Again, good effort out there on Sunday. Good to see.

-Matt Lieto
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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<< yep, ITU has done the only thing to deal with and fix the issue.

what did ITU do to fix the issue?
They didn't want to police a pro race with 60 entrants so they made thier races draft legal?
They don't want to police their age group Worlds races either and basically tell the officials to keep the pen and pad in their pocket. ITU Worlds at the age group level looks nothing more then a shorter version of Ironman. So I think it is kind of hypocritical of you Dave to spout off about how you'll never do another Ironman race because of the drafting.

<< This is why I could never consider
clearwater. Why spend all that money to just be in a draft fest.

<< I do not sign up for races like this! I do walk my talk with my money.
So, I have never had an issue in a race in my 12 years of racing.

I don't mean to pick on you, it seems everyone else here does enough of that, but seriously, there is a disconnect in what you say and do.

Mike Plumb, TriPower MultiSports
Professional Running, Cycling and Multisport Coaching, F.I.S.T. Certified
http://www.tripower.org
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [Diabolo] [ In reply to ]
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I guess you're not going to get any replies to your post.

I was thinking the same thing as you. Turns out this was much ado about nothing!
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [Mike Plumb] [ In reply to ]
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Mike, where did I ever say I would not do an IM race bacause of drafting? I have no desire to do another IM
race because of what I believe are long term health issues from doing that distance. But, if I got into IMH,
I would do it, drafting or not since my goal would only be to finish in 17 hours.

And yes, I did not consider clearwater based on comments of drafting. Why would I want to do a race
where I spent all that time and money to brag about a new bike PR. I also have no desire to
do that race distance either, which is why I got my money back from vineman 70.3 this year.

Sorry, in my 2, but only 2 ITU worlds, I saw very little drafting. Must be because I was so far back
from the leaders.

So, please, help me see the disconnect between what I say and do, since I am well known
for walking my talk. (Now, I do like to think outloud, which have some thinking I go back and forth
on issues)

The only race I can think of that has a section of drafting that I sign up for is the SJIT.
These is a road section about 4 miles in length that has so many bikes that we are ALL drafting each other.
Now, if going 10 to 15 mph is drafting then I guess I was cheating.


Dave

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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [Mike Plumb] [ In reply to ]
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They didn't want to police a pro race with 60 entrants so they made thier races draft legal?

Mike,

Did you read Jim V's post?
Did you read my follow-up post on this. These are not pretty pictures. It was a messy, ugly confusing scene and no one was happy at the ITU races. And then it was all gone! Now this is just for the Pros - the AG situation is a whole different kettle of fish - that still is, messy, ugly, confusing and with no one happy!! :)



Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [M~] [ In reply to ]
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I have to admit, the thought of a draft-legal IM both intrigues and disgusts me. :) I think I would rather watch it than participate in it.

I love non-drafting IMs, but I would do a draft-legal IM in a heartbeat. It would be so awesome - tactics would actually change based on the course and competition, the swim would have more meaning, races would probably be closer and more exciting. Sometimes I wonder if the whole point of IM is to see who can eat the most while holding 71% of FTP for an entire day. It would probably be a mess with a 2000 person race though!
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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I agree, make it so it hurts if they get caught, really hurt.
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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [MuffinTop] [ In reply to ]
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I love non-drafting IMs, but I would do a draft-legal IM in a heartbeat.

The thought of 2500 triathletes drafting and trying to ride in packs terrifies me...


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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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Steve, that assumes we never get ITU type AG races. I still have hope USAT may start a series,
and the bitching on drafting for those races go away. Instead, the bikers will complain they get no respect,
and can feel what the swimmers have felt for years with wetsuits being legal. Smile

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Ironman Canada 2008: the pro-men's race from my perspective [MuffinTop] [ In reply to ]
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IMO, no way would any smart RD do a draft legal race with that many folks. They would be kept small, maybe
at most a few hundred. And again, the draft legal race I do every year as very very few real drafting.
Most folks just find every excuse in the book so they do not have to learn how to swim to compete.

Dave

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