very well said, you and your brother Chris(met him at Nautica South Beach) are both a class act... good luck racing this yr

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"Fear is what drives you in the last part of a marathon in an Ironman. The body is depleted and the mind is fuzzy. Short course racing is driven by power and finese at the end of a race, Ironman demands so much more and is driven by will and mental strength." Chris McCormack

10/28/08 Dev Paul had 400w FTP!!!

What I find funny is that many on this thread and others who are anti drafting & even start posts on how bad it is, time and time again they register for another IMNA/NAS race knowing its going to be the same (then bitch again). Seem a bit hypocritical to me to bitch about drafting then condone it.

if you are bitching about something then registering you really are sending a mixed message to the RD, IMNA/NAS and the officials basically saying don't worry about the drafting.

Your entry fee dollars speak much louder then you moaning on ST. Maybe a nice email to the RD and IMNA/NAS about how you can't continue to be a customer would be a good idea as well.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

I don't know if that's fair - a lot of people assumedly enjoy IM enough that they'll put up with drafting along with high race fees, in-person signups, and any number of other annoyances in return for the experience of racing IM-branded events. That doesn't necessarily mean that drafting doesn't drive them up the wall. Just that there aren't that many other options.

It's easy to say 'don't sign up if you don't like the drafting' - but for a lot of people, the alternative of not participating at all is just not realistic.

I guess what I should have said is that if you are constantly signing up for races that tend to always have lots of drafting then whining about it, either don't sign up or don't whine.

There are a ton of other options beside Mdot races, I can think of at least 7 off the top of my head, 2 on each side of the Mississippi, one in Canada, one in Germany and I forgot where Embrunman (sp) is.

EDIT: Make that 2 in Canada for 8 non M-dot IM races. Seems like a fair bit of options to me.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

I wasn't going to get involved in this thread, but thought I'd throw my two cents in to what you're saying. I don't agree with it at all. The basics of this race and all Mdot are great, but the drafting issue happens to be one big problem that needs fixing.

You're saying for people to either stop 1) complaining about drafting or 2) not race. Do you have a driver's license? My guess is that you 1) complain about traffic from time to time and 2) haven't stopped driving.

1) Do you really think if no one ever says anything about it, it will fix the problem? Obviously not, so that one is out the window.
2) Do you really think everyone who doesn't like drafting is going to stop racing? While of course this would send a big message, of course it is NOT going to happen. So that doesn't help anything either.

There has to be a REALISTIC way to complete the feedback loop. All parties should be involved in providing feedback and acting on it. There has to be a dialogue and the issue has to be presented to those who have the power and will to do something about it. I'm not sure a 7 page thread on an internet forum is the place for the changes to happen, but it is a place to begin a discussion and get a small group moving in the right direction.

Bottom line - people are going to want to improve the events in which they participate in. While continuing to participate in them.

ML-

Could you be kind enough to keep me abridged of the results of your meeting or find a way that I may be able to add to it? Much appreciated.

Congrats on your race and your Kona slot.

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36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App

It's up to the race organisers to be creative. Technology needs to be used to offset the cost and it must be discrete because that is what is the failure point with the current approach. Most of the technology is there and deployed on the course anyway with the timing mats. Increase the frequency, add some dummy ones in. And yes Dev, loops of shame to shred the legs.

GPS instead of present chips - Polar, Suunto would love to make more $ (Timex is too cheap). Programed to calculate time in others zone if that exceeds... but some researches has to be done if it's possible not to be in a zone for thousands athletes exiting water within 10-20 minutes

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Hare Krishna

>>I guess what I should have said is that if you are constantly signing up for races that tend to always have lots of drafting then whining about it, either don't sign up or don't whine.<<

And then the cheaters will have won...races full of 2,500 drafters. Nice.

clm

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

Just two ideas and not sure if they are of any use but:

• Allow the athletes in the pro wave to police themselves. If a referee gets a complaint about an athlete or athletes from 3 or more pros then thats a penalty. However the pro's who make the complaint must be willing to put thier name to the complaint. Unfortuantely this relies on the integrity of the athletes to not abuse the system.
• For multi lap courses and loops, get 10 or 15 normal athletes to act as eyes on the course. These athletes could sign up before the race and the job is to inform the referee of any packs or groups they see. ideally you need some FOP, MOP and BOP athletes, not neccesarilly in an 'A' Race, TBH they dont even have to be doing the full race, just number them and send them out at intervals. On a multi lap course they should also see the leaders come through as well. If you dont advertise who they are then the athletes should have to ride clean as they do not know where the penalties are coming from. Unlike the current system where the backman seems to be the one who listens out for the motorbikes! Need at least 5 reports to get a penalty. Should not be too hard to find people as most Rd's will have athletes that they know and trust who they can call upon.

All penalties would be given as time penalties after the race, although i suppose some system could be used to give the peanlties in t2. Also make the time penalties meanigful 30mins or 1hr also remove the hawaii option for IM as well.

These may not work, but you never know are are arguably the cheapest option.

I wish I would have to ad to that picture of front pro pack, but don't have anything sensational. I remember that I pass you Scott in the very beginning of the race.. just before first uphill I notice Jason Shortis working hard and went by (he remind me myself fist time doing IMC last year and I was wondering if it will cost him same - I think it was - so as Matt said, I had my plan on easy first half and tried to stick with it), there was already quite few guys around.. at the top we got Jazz and on the way to Oliver Chris Brown. later few guys with Jonnyo and some more. There was not much choice but keep 10 meters on the first flat part..... I eat my oatmeal at the beginning of Richter and went to last position, then group start braking up and I moved to the last position of the first group expecting use my descending position to get further, so I did and remember Matt well ahead of the rest on rollers, then I dropped him on another downhill and later at the end of rollers moved to the 3rd passing probably Austrian(?) ... just before out and back section TV motorcycle told me that I have about 2 minutes on others. then I saw them coming on turnarounds and figured that I can't brake away on the flat, so at the end of out and back Matt went buy and either he put the hummer down or I was tired after my attempt, but I couldn't keep up, few kilometers latter you "attacked" - at least it looked to me like that since i didn't know what was going on behind, i should say I was a bit mad about that move thinking that you where sitting behind in pack all that 130k and now such a stupid pace increasing (I wished you will pay for it on the run : ) so did I for my moments of fare play this year again, even little later then last year : (
looks like I missed drafting situation and can't say about anybody anything, but did see that fresh austrian legs for 20+k in front of me - now I understand that it's not that I became so slow......... was nice to know
PS. still, to my opinion the fact that there is no drug test at IMC is more disturbing
Sincerely
Andriy Yastrebov

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Hare Krishna

The problem is - this isn't just limited to NAS races. Any race with a significant amount of people has problems.

Spirit of Racine for example - when I was riding back in to transition (mile 30-35) and later wave folks were headed out (mile 20-25), it was like one long train of drafting. Just to many people. Waves did not solve that; although they did hand out a LOT of penalties that day.

The solution isn't doing other races - it is either 1> making the fields smaller, 2> putting HUGE gaps between waves (ick), or 3> making the penalty for drafting severe enough that it won't happen (although officals need to call penalties correctly to prevent wrecking the race of something that was incidental).

So let's recap. Here is the top 8 for the race :

1. Bryan Rhodes (NZL) 8:30:12
2. Bernhard Hiebl (AUT) 8:34:34
3. Jasper Blake (CAN) 8:36:08
4. Andriy Yaserbov (UKR) 8:37:11
5. Justin Daerr (USA) 8:37:34
6. Kyle Marcotte (CAN) 8:44:30
7. Matt Lieto (USA) 8:45:42
8. Courtney Ogden (AUS) 8:47:04

Apparently, Bryan, Jasper, Andriy, Justin, Kyle, Matt and Courtney did not cheat (either because someone said so or they defended themselves on this thread).

Who's left then ? Bernhard Hiebl, and that's it ? It was not a pack then ? What gives ?

In the end, it looks like there was no drafting at IMC among pros (apart from one guy from Austria). Case closed :-)

Brain, could not agree with you more. You see a few of us who walk your talk, and do not come onto ST and go nuts about drafting.
Running is supposed to be a release from our normal jobs, not the same pressure cooker.

Oh well, it has been interesting seeing the same comments about/from the pro's as the AGers. No one ever admits
to doing it. But, sure are lots of folks saying it happens. Lots say the officials do not give out enough red cards,
others say they better not give out a lot since they will ruin folks days who were not drafting.

Just glad I have not allowed myself to get sucked into races that would drive me nuts. Clearwater was on my list,
and I just said why. Just because marketing called it a "championship" race?

I was thinking last night how Jimmy deals with this. Meaning, if I have learned on thing in life, and that is after a few times
hitting ones head against a wall, maybe it is time to move.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Yep, these FEW that bitch are things RD's hear all the time, and just toss.
Again, the VAST majority of Emails to RD's are what a great race they had and they will be back.
Bottom line, just follow the money.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

With all due respect to DesertDude and H20fun, if I were to not race every race I saw blatant drafting, I wouldn't get to race at all. It is just more apparent in a race with over 2000 people in it. Personally, I see two issues.

1. Penalties aren't strong enough. You tell someone that if they are caught drafting, they will lose 15 minutes off their time. That sends a message. especially to the top dudes.
2. My experience is people more and more could care less about anyone else and only care about themselves. The attitude of racers really needs to change.

I have yet to do a race where I haven't seen blatant drafting. Whenever I have asked the RD (VERY nicely mind you) about it, I always get sent to OAT. I ask OAT about it, I get sent back to the RD. Nobody takes responsibility for it. Which again, seems typical in this day and age.

For what it is worth, I was sitting at my keyboard last November all set to jump into IM Florida 2008 as soon as registration opened. I raced it in 2004 and didn't find drafting an issue where I was on the course (1hr swim/5.15 bike).

The mass hysteria on here about how bad the drafting was last year made me back off and I'm glad i did. I raced Norseman instead, best race I have ever done. Not only did I not see any drafting (even though their rules allow you to ride side by side on the hills), I only saw about 8 other riders all day!

Certain races are a definite no for me, Clearwater being the obvious one, Silverman has a big appeal however.

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Richard Melik | I work for the following companies | Zwift.com | Freespeed Bike Fit (UK)
Manager | David McNamee

You won't regret Silverman. Most fun race/week I have had. And I DNF'd!! :)

Hey Dave - do you know how accurate the GPS systems are on the Athlete Tracker in your sig line? Do they use WAAS?

Not sure. I know this has been talked about, but GPS depending on how many sats you have, may not be good enough?
BUT, if you had it set for 6 second pings, you SURE could see if a train has been going for a long time!!!

It sure would be the best device to use now I am aware of. Just think if all the pros and top AGers had one,
and we were all watching live on line. Do you think it is possible that we could tell they were drafting issues?
Do you think some of these folks would think twice about drafting if they knew they were being watched?

MA is going to be at the next IM races I believe. Rather than a first come first serve, maybe the pros want
to talk to John and see if they will all agree to wear and we can see how it works and it if improves anything.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

The big issue is wether or not the system can determine position accurately enough. My Garmin with WAAS (Wide Area Augmentation System) is usually good to about 14'. ~5 meters as your margin of error would make for a pretty sloppy draft zone. If it was accurate enough, writing software to give you meanigful data on competitors, their position WRT draft zones, time in zone, etc. is all possible. The RD could set parameters in the application to define what a drafting violation looks like and the s/w could create an event log, puke out a notification, or both (or any number of other representations of the data). It would be interesting to take a few sets out and ride legal, then ride tight and see what kind of data you can collect.

So what happens if the battery dies/system dies at some point during the race?

I imagine the system would stop reporting your position.

I'm not suggesting this as a replacement to draft marshals, but it has the potential to be a useful tool if commercially available equipment would meet the requirements.

With military spec gear, this is a no-brainer.