Scott, I think it is great you say what you feel....you saw some guys cheating and you called them out on it. Congrats on that 8:52 Ironman, impressive!

Darin Booton
www.konaendurance.com

Jarret, many many of the folks who attack others somehow are not willing to use their real names.
Wonder why so many gives these folks ANY credit!!!!!!

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Aerobike--you take the cake for THE ALL TIME LOSER post. Newsflash--drafting is a huge problem. Scott was there and called it like he saw it. We need more of that--not less. Were you there-if so, let's hear your viewpoint, otherwise let those who were call it as they saw it.

As a CEO I have often thought about supporting this great sport through sponsorship but one of the things which gives me pause is the blatant cheating that goes on. Triathlon should be about a lot of good things in life--living right, working hard, showing courage, persevering, etc. Not about cheating to pick up a $2000 paycheck at IMC. I know this isn't the same as the Tour and EPO but from a sponsorship perspective, if you're paying attention, it's pretty much the same thing. As a result, my company has tended to sponsor local and kid's triathlons--seem like they are truer to the spirit of this sport. I wonder if other potential sponsors have this viewpoint....

Aerobike--man-up and apologize to Scott and try to do something constructive!

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Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.

Get a clue. Scott accused a subset of the pro mens field, of which many were blatantly drafting. As someone who was riding in the top 20 all day (working his way from 17th out of the water to 4th off the bike) he had plenty of opportunity to see the sharp end of the field.

I was out there all day leapfrogging the leaders (in a car) and saw the very same thing. While many rode clean, there was a lot of drafting, and it was bad.

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<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
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Shawn, you said in another thread you were following the race and witnessed a lot of AG athletes blantantly drafting, including STers (you obviously know/recognize them somehow).

If you really "think he is doing the right thing by speaking his mind and calling out the athletes who are blatantly cheating" then its time to man up and do the same.

Name and shame...

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blood, sweat...and big gears

I hated every minute of training, but I said, ''Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.''
- Muhammad Ali

How about supplying pics to this.

http://draftingsucks.blogspot.com


:-)

Gold! Make it a sticky Herbert...dare ya ;)

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blood, sweat...and big gears

I hated every minute of training, but I said, ''Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.''
- Muhammad Ali

When I wear my mirror at Nationals, can I get on that site?

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

That sounds like a great idea Nick !

Terry

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"You are never too old to set another goal or to dream a new dream" - Les Brown
"Discipline is the bridge between goals and accomplishment" - Jim Rohn

Scott, guess your not budging on this at all, I am all of a sudden doubting the class i spoke of earlier. Just because an athlete is with a "group" does not mean he is cheating or wants to be there. Maybe an athlete has a race plan and sticks to it? I had a plan and stuck to it, if that meant watching a group slowly bring me back after Richter because I was staying in my "watts" then that was my plan. Does that mean I want to be in that group- NO. You are being a bit ignorant by these statements.

I understand it was a tough field and the times where faster than a regular year on your home turf, but to come to your pulpit and call guys out for racing a smart race, is low class. Not smart because they where drafting, smart because they didn't change their race plan due to low integrity racers.

One more comment, is cheating, cheating? Here you are accusing people of cheating, while you finished the ride with a mark on your number? Throwing a bottle after the drop zone is a form of cheating- it is against the RULES. The rest of us professionals who got rid of our bottles before the zone followed the rules, even if it meant to not fill up our whole aero bottle, or soft pedal or coast to get it out in time. What has more effect on the race, guys with admittedly no class by drafting (get this straight I think drafting is crap and we need to fix it!) or littering a course only for thousands of amatuers to possibly follow your lead thinking, if so and so did it so can I. That actually can affect our ability to continue to race in these beautiful places.

Like I said, in the race as far as I saw I thought you where class, even spending energy to encourage you when I caught you on the run- to no response I might add.

Do not get me wrong , there where a lot of guys drafting, and I was incredibly frustrated myself, but had to stick to my own race. I have no problem with complaining about drafting- but- DO NOT CALL PEOPLE OUT IF YOU DIDN'T WITNESS THEM CHEAT.

Sorry if I seem upset, but I my goal for the last 10 years racing has always been to race to the best of my ability, but most importantly with integrity. Just don't need an upset athlete to virtually accuse the entire field besides him and a few others of cheating.

Enjoy the recovery- Matt Lieto

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-Matt Lieto

It happens because the race officals can't get in there on motor cycles safely. The road on the "out and back" is too narrow". If you recall tech support was in there on argos/ATVs. I could be wrong but some of the drafting occurs because it was narrow and this year because you didn't really know what was under those big puddles...I got passed by some bunched up riders in the "out and back", but other than that the race seemed pretty well spread out where I rode at LP.

TS

I saw you riding Matt. You were clean.

Scott made a mistake in naming those he saw as clean without the caveat that he was not necessarily stating that everyone left off his list was dirty. As a racer it would be impossible for him to see everyone (he did have a race of his own to focus on) - he named those who he saw riding clean (and initially those he saw as dirty, but he's since removed that part).

I was out on course with the leaders, and saw the top 20 for nearly the whole ride (I didn't see what Marky V was up to for a chunk of the ride, but he was solo off the front).

Again, for the benefit of everyone on the forum, you were clean. All day.




Khai

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<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
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The problem is the incident we witnessed was only about a minute. We were chasing the pro race and happened to come across a pack of 5-6 AG guys riding together with less than a bike length separation. This was just before the fruit stand and the out n back section. In the middle of the pack was someone we instantly recognized. Even though it was a long enough time to deserve a drafting penalty, I'm not willing to call him out since it was the only time I saw him on the bike. To us, it looked like an organized draft pack but, again, the whole incident was about 60secs and we never saw him again. Whereas, with the pro race, we followed it all day and saw numerous incidents of pack riding and drafting.

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Shawn
TORRE Consulting Services, LLC
http://www.TORREcs.com

So you write that first post and then you essentially say that you think it's ok to cheat if you depend on prize money to survive?? When enough people have that attitude that's the problem right there.

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BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

Not to put words into Scott's mouth but I think that what he intended to say was that he understands the temptation to cheat, and believes that it would be much stronger for those whose livelihood depends on race winnings - to the point where it could be a really tough decision (as opposed to simply "clear as day"). Not knowing Scott extremely well, I still think that I know him well enough to state that he'd rather eat Ramen with his honour intact than dine on steak and caviar as a cheater.

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<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
Get Fitter!
Proud member of the Smartasscrew, MONSTER CLUB
Get your FIX today?

I think what he was saying was that if he really depended on that prize money check to feed his family, it would be a lot harder to convince himself to follow rules that lots of other people seemed to not be following. That makes sense to me: if the choice is between following a rule at a triathlon (that other people are breaking!) and letting your family go hungry, the choice becomes a lot less clear.

Yes, I can see that but what I reacted to was the; If I depended on prize money to survive, it would have been the tipping point for me. Maybe that was just very poor wording but like it's written it seems pretty clear cut to me and would be hard to interpret in any other way. Not all of us know the guy and can guess that he means something different than what he's actually writing.

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BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

No it doesn't because then you just go and get a real job. To stretch this further do you think it's ok for me or anyone to cheat by taking doping products if that was the only way we could make a living from doing triathlons?

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BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

OK, I definitely see your point. I agree that if the only way you can succeed is by cheating, that doesn't mean it's OK to cheat in order to succeed. I've been in the position Scott found himself in last weekend - I did IMFL last fall - and I had to make the same decision. Last fall's IMFL was not the cleanest race in the history of triathlons, there was a lot of drafting going on, and I wound up choosing to do most of the ride on my own, about 300 meters behind a decent-sized group. You probably never have this problem (I imagine that's one of the benefits of being pretty much the fastest bike rider in triathlons), but when you can see a group ahead of you, working together, it is pretty darn tempting to go ride with them. Like I said, I didn't go ride with them, but I can't honestly say that doing so is as inconceivable as, say, cutting the course.
Certainly it's not the right thing to do, and I am sure Scott is happy with his choice. But it is a choice, because although it's a rule, it's hardly ever enforced, so obeying it becomes more and more of a competitive disadvantage. It's not the only one. For instance:
- Hardly anyone starts an IM with the "required" 6 one-inch pieces of reflective tape on their person. That's a rule that shouldn't be hard to obey, but it's not enforced.
- Neither is the rule against cutting or folding race numbers.
- Likewise any race with a deepwater start has part of the field drifting halfway out to the first turn buoy before the gun goes off. This one is actually the most like the drafting problem. There's always a lifeguard there going "hey, you guys, move back!", but the rule is never actually enforced. Some people stay behind the start line until the gun because that's the rule, but by doing so they are giving up time to the athletes who race under the subset of rules which are actually enforced.

It would be *great* if all of us could just be trusted to follow the rules all the time. Rules are after all the entire point of sport; they define the sport. Rules are what make triathlon different from bike racing, sailboat racing, and golf. But if rules are never enforced, they aren't really rules at all, and breaking them is less a matter of integrity and more a matter of practicality. I do agree with your basic premise (just because you need to cheat in order to succeed, that doesn't mean you should cheat), but I don't really think that's what we're discussing.

Off topic..but this makes the whole thread below make a lot more sense! :-)

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...rum.cgi?post=1059531

I can see that but the fact that most people seem to think that this violation that can produce huge benefits in overall time and placing is ok to do as long as no one sees you is why the problem is so big. Again with a drug example; do you also have an understanding for people that take prohibited performance enhancers for races that are not doing drug testing which also is the case in a lot of triathlons just the same as some are not monitoring drafting? Like I said both of these provide much greater benefits than cutting your number or not wearing reflective tape so obviously I think everyone should know where the priorities are in enforcing these rules. Doesn't matter where you are on the bike the rules are the same for everybody and impacts the guy off the front in the end sometimes as much as the guys doing the actual drafting further back.

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BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

Seeing as there are so many pros posting to this thread I'm going to give you a heads-up on IMC '09 - I'm registered. I waited in line (again) all night to sign up, so you know I'm tough. I only need to shave about an hour off my bike split to own all of you. My training plan includes buying new pedals and painting my bike black, so I figure I'm already at least halfway there. I'll be out of the water in a little over an hour. With your 15 minute lead, expect to start hearing 'left' somewhere around Starbucks. You're welcome to sit in as long as you can, but remember you still have a marathon to run...

If anyone wants a free 8.5 x 11" photo of me (action shot, add $6.00) to pin up in in front of their trainer over the winter, please PM me your coordinates.

See you on the 30th.

Why? That 2 year old post was about Chris Lieto. The above poster is Matt Lieto. Same family, different doode.

Awesome, can I be on your team?

Sure, line forms in the rear...