Two cartoons that satarised this were The Simpsons and South Park. The Simpsons had Lisa try to market a new talking Malibu Stacey doll that was an intelligent career woman instead of a dumb blonde who'd said things like "*giggle* math is hard!" (which, BTW, I understand that the talking Barbie actually DID say that). South Park, OTOH, had Paris Hilton opening her new clothing store called Stupid Filthy Whore, and all the girls in town wanted to buy her clothes so that they could look like Stupid Filthy Whore's too. ]]]


I love those two shows, and I think they are geared more for adults. As you say it is satire, so all that stuff they put out there, is to make fun of it, and actually show how ridicolus it is. Now if kids don't get that satire, then it is more a problem of their upbringing, and that they take everything literally they see. That is the problem, not these shows. But I can see how some of the religious right might take this stuff literally, and point to it as something that has gone wrong with American values. And to be fair, both shows also satarise the obsurity of the religious right too, so they wouldn't like that either. And I think at some point they make fun of just about every political, religious, and hollywood gaff over the years.....

Monty,

My point was not that these shows are a problem. My point is that the "problem" lies in the way main stream pop culture glorifies the pretty stupid dumb blonde. I brought up these two shows because I thought they did a very good job pointing this out. IOW, South Park was opening our eyes to the fact that girls would actually want to look like Paris Hilton......as if she was something to aspire to.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

My point was not that these shows are a problem. My point is that the "problem" lies in the way main stream pop culture glorifies the pretty stupid dumb blonde\\\\\

No arguement there.

No arguement there.
__________________

But I came here for an argument.

No you didn't.

Yes I did, and this isn't an argument. You can't simply disagree with everything I say and call that an argument.

Yes I can.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

"Let me attempt to explain. Here we have a large social group, many of whom are parents, believing that it's part of ones natural, healthy and normal sexual growth to expose themselves in Playboy magazine."

-- Is there really a large social group pushing their kids to be in Playboy? Acceptance isn't endorsement or encouragement.


Would that also not lead to early "objectification" and acceptance of objectification?"

-- Are you misusing the term "objectification" or do you honestly believe that looking at cheesecake like Playboy causes men to no longer see women as people and only as things that they should screw? Is there data to back this up?

-- Is there really a large social group pushing their kids to be in Playboy? Acceptance isn't endorsement or encouragement.

No, but there aren't a lot of people pushing their kids towards doing drugs either. Put typically where teh parents use drugs the kids are far more likely too. Just because you don't hand your kid a playboy does not mean that you attitudes, behavior etc do not influence your children's behavior in that direction.

-- Are you misusing the term "objectification" or do you honestly believe that looking at cheesecake like Playboy causes men to no longer see women as people and only as things that they should screw? Is there data to back this up?

Yes and Yes. Although I've only read one study it was based on this ideology. The subjects where given a series of questions concerning attitude towards women. They were then shown pornographic videos. Afterwards they were presented another series of questions along the same line. In almost every case the men viewed the subjects in a more sexually objectifying manner, showed less respect and held women with lower esteem. This was the only study I've seen on the source and honestly have no idea where I read it. Frankly I didn't pay a whole lot of attention because it only made perfect sense to me. Obviously if a female is presented to a male in a sexual manner that is exactly where his mind will go. If this "presentation" is omni present as it nearly is in todays society that is where the male mind will remain.

I'll see if I can locate the study and yes I'm aware we are talking about pornographic video versus Playboy magazine, but to varying degree you have the same effect, IMHO.

~Matt

Matt, I think *this* is the real problem, not Amanda Beard and Playboy.

Agreed, but how do you think we got to the point that society accepted that it's perfectly acceptable for a 12 year old girl to pick up a, supposed age appropriate magazine, that teaches them how to be "Sexy enough" to "get the guy"?

My point is this as stated before. If you're living a lifestyle that feels that Playboy, Pornography etc is natural, normal progression towards becoming a "sexual being" that attitude will without doubt, be instilled into your children and actions toward children. To me it's no different than your statement here "If you bring home US, People, and Entertainment magazines every week and sit around and watch TV all day........then your kids will just fall in line and embrace it." IOW if you buy Playboy and keep it out as if it should be "normal" material then obviously your kids will pick that up. Even if the material itself is not available to the children but your belief and attitude is such that you believe it is normal and natural that belief WILL be picked up by your children.

My personal opinion is that the people that are sexualizing our youth probably truly believe that what they are doing is completely "Natural" and "Normal". My belief is also that they likely picked that belief up because they were raised by parents that either believed it was normal and natural or to a lesser degree believed it was normal and natural for older individuals and the children picked it up as normal and natural for them.

Like I said, if Amanda Beard wants to pose nude in Playboy....whatever, go for it.

And as stated before I 100% agree. However I do believe that the attitude toward her behavior is what the problem is. As shown in this thread most people that believe what Amanda did is fine also believe that it's "Normal", Natural and even part of becoming a "Sexual being". These same people don't believe that she is being sexualized or objectified in anyway. In fact some claim that what she is doing is "Art". My point is that this type of belief is the problem, not Playboy, not the objectification or sexualization of an adult female, but the attitude that is held.

I honestly don't believe I can explain my position any better than this.

~Matt

My point is that the "problem" lies in the way main stream pop culture glorifies the pretty stupid dumb blonde.

Which is pretty close to my point about Playboy. The problem is not Playboy or Amanda, but the way that society looks at Playboy. My point also connects the two meaning I don't believe we got to the point that Paris Hilton could be mainstream in one big jump. We got there thru a whole series of social view shifts. One of many of these shifts was the shift that being in Playboy went from the realm of "Backroom adult male" to "Well that's normal natural and part of becoming a sexual being". IMHO the latter is patently false and is leading to the social acceptance of individuals and individual actions such as Paris Hilton where before these shifts these individuals would have been socially berated for their actions and lifestyle's not held up to "hero" status.

~Matt

I haven't seen anyone say that although I'll admit I can not recall every post in this thread. I think what some of us are saying is that it is an acceptable CHOICE for her to make...not some natural progression of an individual's sexuality. Acceptance and endorsement are totally different. Not sure why that point isn't easy to agree upon.

I am curious as to that "study" about how men view women after watching porn that has been casually thrown about. Might make for an interesting read (if it exists).

Slighty tangential and not really worth pursuing - but I've seen a few reports/articles on how the average age of puberty has/is plummeting. My 9yr old niece just had to start wearing a bra...good grief. I wonder if the 'over-sexification' of our kids is basically a symptom of this shift in biology to sexual maturity at younger ages. Of course, the media plays into this as well but both forces might be working simultaneously.

"This is was the only study I've seen on the source and honestly have no idea where I read it"

-- Citations or it didn't happen, though if it did, I'm not sure if it's relevant, since we are talking about the long term effects of Amanda Beard posing for Playboy, not the fact that watching porn makes you horny.

"Slighty tangential and not really worth pursuing - but I've seen a few reports/articles on how the average age of puberty has/is plummeting. My 9yr old niece just had to start wearing a bra...good grief. I wonder if the 'over-sexification' of our kids is basically a symptom of this shift in biology to sexual maturity at younger ages. Of course, the media plays into this as well but both forces might be working simultaneously."

Hmm... I'm going to say global warming is causing this, since things do grow faster in a greenhouse. Of course, we learned yesterday that Amanda Beard caused global warming, so...

Yeah...I can just see this study now. Have a guy watch a porno and then flash the image of a clothed woman in front of the guy like 20 seconds after it ends and ask "So what do you think about when I show you this?". lol

I haven't seen anyone say that although I'll admit I can not recall every post in this thread.

What!? You haven't read EVERY thread? You can't vote then. Seriously though I may be misinterpreting but a couple individuals have come across to me that being in Playboy is part of being a "Sexual Being". To which I basically responded I didn't believe that to be the case and it's more about being a "Richer Being"

Acceptance and endorsement are totally different.

Agreed 100%. My opinion, and maybe we agree here more than we disagree, is that stating "Well this is entirely natural and normal" is pretty much an endorsement. Versus "She's not hurting anyone and if she's ok with getting naked so I can look at her and get all warm and fuzzy, that's cool" which is acceptance.

I am curious as to that "study" about how men view women after watching porn that has been casually thrown about. Might make for an interesting read (if it exists).

Did a little searching and although this is not the study I saw ran on a similar premis. This one is rather lengthy and I have not really looked at it all. The conditions seems similar to the article I read. What I read may actually have been a summary of this because it was only a few pages long. LINK

Slighty tangential and not really worth pursuing -...

I've read and seen similar info. One suggested reason I heard was that female children of women that had prolonged birth control usage hit puberty earlier. I'm guessing that prolonged birth control usage is becoming more and more likely. Another theory had something to do with food sources, food quality, hormones in food etc. I am guessing whatever it is that it's not an "evolutionary" type of thing. But honestly I have no idea.

~Matt

LINK

This isn't the one I read but the one I read sounds similar enough that it may have been a summary of this one. Haven't looked thru this much so have no idea what the outcome was/is.

~Matt

That can't be it, though interestingly it did show that watching porn makes you horny, and that smart guys are more nervous around the ladies than dumb guys...

Can't seem to locate the one I read. Here's a LINK to Meta study concerning the subject. It list a bunch of other studies and tries to draw conclusion from a several different studies.

Not 100% sure exactly what your looking for from the study but these appear to point out that varying degrees of pornography usage have effects similar to what I've stated. Draw your own conclusions I guess but this link sites all sorts of studies to look at if you're interested.

~Matt

This may the one that I read or at least the study the article was based on. Can't seem to find the actual study anywhere but here's the abstract. Although I have no idea what "Gender Schematic" means.

Treating women as sexual objects: Look to the (gender schematic) male who has viewed pornography. McKenzie, M. et al Personality Soc. Psych. Bul. 1990 16: 296-308.
Abstract: Tested the hypothesis that exposure to nonviolent pornography would prime a heterosexuality subschema in gender schematic males and thus lead these males to view and treat a woman as a sexual object. 60 male undergraduates, half gender schematic and half gender aschematic, watched either a pornographic or a control video prior to being interviewed by a female research assistant. Although she was blind to condition, the female experimenter found the gender schematic males who had viewed the pornographic video to be significantly more sexually motivated than the subjects in the other 3 conditions. Further, in the 1st minute of a free recall task given after the interview, 72% of the information recalled by this group of males concerned the physical features of the female experimenter, as compared with 49% for the males in the other conditions.

~Matt

From the study:

"Pictorial nudity reduces subsequent aggressive behavior (9 studies) while material depicting nonviolent sexual activity slightly increases aggressive behavior (24 studies)."

We should all be thanking Amanda for making the world a more peaceful place.

Yeh I saw that. I also thought it was rather interesting that in another study that after being shown porn it was found that men were actually less likely to approach women. I believe they explained this as the men being possibly "ashamed" of their behavior.

However I thought this was more to the point.

Further, in the 1st minute of a free recall task given after the interview, 72% of the information recalled by this group of males concerned the physical features of the female experimenter, as compared with 49% for the males in the other conditions.

In short, after staring at naked chicks we are more likely to be focused on women as physical objects.

~Matt

"In short, after staring at naked chicks we are more likely to be focused on women as physical objects. "

-- yup, porn makes you horny. Alright, we've beaten this horse, flogged this dolphin, choked this chicken and interrogated this suspect enough. I'm outta here. I think Bryan Rhodes' seat is too high, and I need to jump over to that thread to point it out.

I don't really have the time to wade through this thread to find what I'm after...so...does anyone have links to the pics of amanda?