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Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [phabio] [ In reply to ]
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phabio wrote:
Jordan, seriously, your arrogance is appalling. If you don't like the coaches at EN, you're well entitled to that opinion. If you think that they're doing their athletes a universal disservice by telling them that their time is better spent with their family for 6 months of the year than chasing 5-8 minutes of improvement, again, you're totally entitled to that opinion. But you insult literally hundreds of people who read this forum, and who patronize the sponsors that pay your salary, when you decide that your opinion gives you the right to attack them, and when you decide that somehow you're the only arbiter of what is right and what is wrong. Open your mind, dude, there's more than one way for people to achieve their goals in life. Maybe not everybody out there wants what you want...
I agree 100%. Rappstar's ego and attitude do not represent any professionalism at all. Disgusting.


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Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [TigerBlood] [ In reply to ]
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TigerBlood wrote:
I wonder how many people have read this entire thread (as I have), and are still not swayed either way by the arguments; but have lost a measure of respect for some of the posters therein.
Well said. Can not believe the arrogance of some people.


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Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Cobble] [ In reply to ]
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Cobble wrote:
phabio wrote:
Jordan, seriously, your arrogance is appalling. If you don't like the coaches at EN, you're well entitled to that opinion. If you think that they're doing their athletes a universal disservice by telling them that their time is better spent with their family for 6 months of the year than chasing 5-8 minutes of improvement, again, you're totally entitled to that opinion. But you insult literally hundreds of people who read this forum, and who patronize the sponsors that pay your salary, when you decide that your opinion gives you the right to attack them, and when you decide that somehow you're the only arbiter of what is right and what is wrong. Open your mind, dude, there's more than one way for people to achieve their goals in life. Maybe not everybody out there wants what you want...
I agree 100%. Rappstar's ego and attitude do not represent any professionalism at all. Disgusting.

At last check, he is an athlete, and not a professional personality. Professionalism ends where associations end. If I call you a rotten prick on an internet forum, does it make me an unprofessional engineer?

Unfortunately, this thread has jumped the shark. It was much better when we were still debating those disgustingly-useless brick runs that far too many people seem to be fond of.

"The right to party is a battle we have fought, but we'll surrender and go Amish... NOT!" -Wayne Campbell
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Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Borden] [ In reply to ]
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Borden wrote:
TigerBlood wrote:
I wonder how many people have read this entire thread (as I have), and are still not swayed either way by the arguments; but have lost a measure of respect for some of the posters therein.


As I was finishing up reading through this thread, I was thinking of posting the same thing. I wish we had the "like" button already.

From this reader's perspective, Jordan's comment referring to EN as "hacks" is a negative reflection on his character.
Agreed. It's ironic too how there's nothing more unacademic than criticizing the writer rather than the work. Poor form.
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Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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“Arrogance on the part of the meritorious is even more offensive to us than the arrogance of those without merit: for merit itself is offensive.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche

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Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
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Paulo Sousa wrote:

“Arrogance on the part of the meritorious is even more offensive to us than the arrogance of those without merit: for merit itself is offensive.”
― Friedrich Nietzsche

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Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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Is a brick workout like doing pullups after a swim.
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Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
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Exactly. Shame on Wallstreet, accountants, businessman, and cpa's for calling out that Madoff guy.
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Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
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Paulo Sousa wrote:
“Arrogance on the part of the meritorious is even more offensive to us than the arrogance of those without merit: for merit itself is offensive.”
&#8213; Friedrich Nietzsche

Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.

-same german dude
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Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Quel] [ In reply to ]
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Quel wrote:
Paulo Sousa wrote:

“Arrogance on the part of the meritorious is even more offensive to us than the arrogance of those without merit: for merit itself is offensive.”
&#8213; Friedrich Nietzsche


Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.

-same german dude



"F is for friends who do stuff together! U is for you and me! N is for anywhere at anytime at all down here in the deep blue sea!"

-Spongebob Squarepants


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Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [SM937] [ In reply to ]
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SM937 wrote:
Paulo Sousa wrote:

For sure, anonymous trolls on the Internet are usually much better coaches than I am.


Owned.

Except that he wasn't anonymous.
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Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [AlanShearer] [ In reply to ]
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ah, looks like the science of it has quite recently been settled, in this article

-mike

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http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/
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Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Cobble] [ In reply to ]
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Actually, I find his candor refreshing.


Damn, that's a cold ass honkey.
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Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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I just think that brick training is almost as good as a triathlon itself, without the swimming (if its just a bike/run workout). If the EN coaches said that more race experience is not beneficial and that training and not racing will improve your performance, would we all find that puzzling? I THINK SO.

Brick workouts are basically mini triathlons so its not just about how your legs feel or about muscle fibre usage after 10 minutes of running after biking, its about how your ankles feel, your calves feel, cramping etc, how your entire body responds to continous exercise and stress for a few hours, digestion. As triathletes, we find out all sorts of things when we brick train. We find out what material makes our nipples hurt, we find out if running in socks is a good idea, we find out if we have enough energy to run at race pace after a long bike ride, we find out if going hard or going out easy after t2 is a good idea (and it doesn't just take one brick workout to find that out).

So...basically brick training is as close to a triathlon as it gets without actually doing a triathlon. I think what the EN coaches think is that the triathletes that do bricks do them all the time and don't do isolated running/biking workouts. I honestly doubt there are many of them out there. I am going to assume that its just common sense to mix it up at least. If there are any triathletes out there that always run after they bike and NEVER do isolated bike/run workouts, let everyone know. Otherwise these EN guys are just wasting their time going after idiot triathletes. Serioulsy, has anyone heard of a triathlete saying that they do too many brick workouts?
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Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
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Paulo Sousa wrote:
Yes?

I get it now - running off the bike is a skill exercise, not a fitness exercise. I even got it before Jordan posted it, above.

FWIW, I usually figure out what you mean; sometimes it just takes me a while to get there.
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Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Exactly. It's specific triathlon training to reduce the amount of time it takes for your run legs to return "as normal". It can make you faster over the early portions of the run because it allows your stride off the bike to be more "normal".

The specific benefits, however, plateau after those first few miles. Once your legs return to "normal", it's just like any other run (except now you're tired, not running as fast, and potentially more injury prone because you're forcing a run). The best "brick" is actually a short "transition run", where you run until your legs return to "normal", then jog home easy. I believe Roch Frey, amongst others, had advocated that almost every bike should be followed up by a short transition run to develop that specificity. The long/hard runs, however, should be reserved for seperate workouts where run fitness is the primary focus.

The "brick" has gotten some mythical status where longer=better. But, the practical evidence for long bricks just isn't there, physiologically. The arguments for a "long brick" should not be fitness based; they are either psychological benefits (and completely person dependent) or practicing nutrition (also person dependent). In both cases, I would argue more could be gained from a shorter (sprint if you're training for an Oly, Oly if you're training for a half, half if you're training for IM) race.

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Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [tri_kid] [ In reply to ]
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tri_kid wrote:
I just think that brick training is almost as good as a triathlon itself, without the swimming (if its just a bike/run workout). If the EN coaches said that more race experience is not beneficial and that training and not racing will improve your performance, would we all find that puzzling? I THINK SO.

Brick workouts are basically mini triathlons so its not just about how your legs feel or about muscle fibre usage after 10 minutes of running after biking, its about how your ankles feel, your calves feel, cramping etc, how your entire body responds to continous exercise and stress for a few hours, digestion. As triathletes, we find out all sorts of things when we brick train. We find out what material makes our nipples hurt, we find out if running in socks is a good idea, we find out if we have enough energy to run at race pace after a long bike ride, we find out if going hard or going out easy after t2 is a good idea (and it doesn't just take one brick workout to find that out).

So...basically brick training is as close to a triathlon as it gets without actually doing a triathlon. I think what the EN coaches think is that the triathletes that do bricks do them all the time and don't do isolated running/biking workouts. I honestly doubt there are many of them out there. I am going to assume that its just common sense to mix it up at least. If there are any triathletes out there that always run after they bike and NEVER do isolated bike/run workouts, let everyone know. Otherwise these EN guys are just wasting their time going after idiot triathletes. Serioulsy, has anyone heard of a triathlete saying that they do too many brick workouts?


Hello, my name is Mike and I ride my bike before every run. 6 days a week. I've been doing it for about 5 years. I can ride my bike faster than I could 5 years ago. I can run faster than I could 5 years ago. My stand alone 1/2 marathon PR is faster than it was 5 years ago. My bike and run splits in triathlons are faster than they were 5 years ago. Would all of this have happened if I had done stand alone bike and run sessions instead? Perhaps. Would I be even faster today had I done stand alone sessions? Perhaps. Do I do bike/run sessions because they have some benefit that is greater than the sum of their parts? No, I do them because I have a family, and a job, and I like to ride and run (and I wouldn't be able to ride and run as much as I do without combining the sessions). I'm faster than I was when I started, so I'm happy with that. Am I an idiot triathlete? I don't know (actually I do). But I do know that I've been able to ride and run my way to through the field at most triathlons. Now, it's time to head out the door for a brick!

Mike Sparks


I have competed well, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
Last edited by: Sparks: Oct 28, 11 4:37
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Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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I do bricks for 2 reasons. The #1 reason is since I work a full time job I do a brick workout in order to fit in all my planned running, this allows for longer rest/recovery periods (eg. rahter than running Tuesday AM and biking Tuesday PM, I just do both Tuesday PM which allows my to get more sleep on Monday night). The other reason is that I don't race very much (4-5x per year) so in order tomaintain the 'skill' of running off the bike I need to practice it more often than someone who is racing 15+ races/year. On average it's one brick per week and I usually try and make it specific to what I'm training for, if I'm training for a IM then I'll probably do my brick run off my long ride, if I'm training for something shorter I'll usually try and do my brick run off a short(er) intense ride.
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Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [burnman] [ In reply to ]
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I guess I'm just dense and old. How does running off the bike put wasted miles on your legs? Do you think not running at all is better than running "junk miles"? If you run 5-6-7 times a week your legs are going to be tired. Why is doing 1 or 2 of those runs off the bike a wasted effort? Off the bike or not, some of those runs are going to be easy not quality. Some of those "quality" workouts are going to be done on tired legs. Should you not do them? Do you run to your potential on every run?
When I am training for an IM I am tired and sore. If I skipped a workout everytime I had a tired body part, arm, leg etc. I would not be doing but maybe 3 workouts a week. That's what I've never understood about the whole wasted miles, doing your long run after your long bike, bricks, tired legs etc. I do not understand how you can train for an IM and be 100% recovered anytime you do a quality workout. Sometimes I feel stronger than others and I get stronger as the program progresses but I have never been 100% recovered for a work out in the last 10 years.
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Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [phabio] [ In reply to ]
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On the question of the definition of Elite, I'd suggest that any coach who is able to get the best out of the athletes they've chosen to service should be 'allowed' to hang a shingle with a superlative.

Based on that definition, does that make them "elite" coaches? They basically tell their athletes not to swim because the return on investment isn't great enough. Is that getting the best out of your athlete?

My big problem with them is that they frame their arguments as though their way is the absolute best way to train for triathlon and everyone else is wasting their time (even though those are proven methods) when I believe that what they really mean is that it's the best way for their clients (athletes with families and limited time to train) to train for triathlon. When they establish credibility they speak in terms of quantity rather than quality and their business plan appears to be based on quantity, yet they use quality over quantity when selling their training plans.

I don't have a problem with them targeting triathletes with limited time to train and developing training plans for that target audience. That's a viable business, obviously, but that doesn't make their way the best way to train for triathlon. And coaching random age groupers to PRs doesn't make someone an elite coach, in my opinion.

That said, I didn't know that EN claimed to be elite coaches.
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Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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Wow--this is quite a thread. I suggest we abandon it and go train. Training is fun. Life is short. Saying negative things about people's character diminishes both the target and the person saying the negative things. I know, I've made that mistake too many times.

Seems to me if you are a serious triathlete there is plenty of room in your training year to try bricks for a while and see if you think they help you--help you physically and (more importantly) help you maintain and maximize your motivation to keep training. If they do, keep doing them. My own personal experiment of one has led me to conclude that I'm happier and more motivated when I do a long ride to wait a bit before I do a run--I find I just don't like to do a run after a 5+ hour ride. I seem to have a better quality and more benenficial run when I wait a couple of hours. So I don't do bricks that often anymore ( a little at the beginning of each season) and I think I'm a better triathlete for it. I know I enjoy my training more and at 54 years of age that is very important to me.

As for judging and labelling other people--I find that the true value of ST is to consider (new) ideas and decide for myself if I want to try them and see if they help me with my triathlon fitness. The source of the ideas is not important if the idea is good. I will say that I have learned some valuable things from both Jordan and from the EN guys and I hope to continue to do so in the future.

OK--long run time--have to bundle up, it's getting cold!

Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.
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Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [TigerBlood] [ In reply to ]
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TigerBlood wrote:
I wonder how many people have read this entire thread (as I have), and are still not swayed either way by the arguments; but have lost a measure of respect for some of the posters therein.

I think there might be more than a few readers that agree with you.

But since a few others have gotten side-tracked into other topics, perhaps I can offer an explanation. It's not 100% black and white, but there is evidence to suggest that bike-run (and, actually, swim-bike) workouts do have benefits for triathlon, but there are some big caveats regarding exactly how you execute them.

So, about the article, I know little about EN, but the main issue is that their argument skirts the issue of training specificity, which has some evidence to back it up. But what is specificity? It is a training principle that essentially says that the best way to train for 'X' is to do 'X'.

As an analogy, training specificity says that the best way to learn to run a 10-miler as fast as possible is to train by running many 10-milers at the fastest pace you possibly can. However, while there is little disagreement that this is in principle correct, there are also some practical problems with this approach. For most athletes in most situations, while you would get a somewhat effective and highly specific training adaptation from running this way, the recovery penalty is just too great. You would need to spend too much time recovering from your many all-out 10-milers that your training progress, while it would be substantial, would not be as rapid as it could be.

And that is where the idea of interval training comes in. Basically, interval training allows you to get nearly the same (but not exactly the same) training adaptation as you would from running multiple all-out 10 milers, but the modified structure of interval training allows you to spend more time running faster with less time needed for recovery (during the workout, and after).

For triathlon, "bricks" are effective in getting training adaptations. But, much like running an all-out 10-miler, doing a tough brick session can also be very hard on your body. So should you do any brick training? Well, if you need to be fast off the bike, yes.

But most bricks should be treated like high-intensity training sessions. Because if you do a lot of brick sessions or do long distance and high intensity bricks, you will have a big recovery penalty. So there is little reason to do that. Instead, like interval training, you should do brick training selectively and, depending on your target event distance, you typically should do them in shorter combinations and distances than your actual race distance.

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Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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rcmioga wrote:
Saying negative things about people's character diminishes both the target and the person saying the negative things. I know, I've made that mistake too many times.

Well said.

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Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Should we call you a "hack" professional.....afterall you haven't won Kona!!!!!

Jordan, you WERE one on my favorite Pros, I could care less if you disagree with ENs coach or philosophy (in fact I hope nobody in the 50-54 AG does) but your personal attacks on EN coaches and team is very distasteful!

Michael in Kansas
"Once you learn to quit, it becomes a habit"
"Its not whether you get knocked down, it's whether you get up" Lombardi
Last edited by: jayhawk.: Oct 28, 11 6:19
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Re: Interesting article against brick workouts [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
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Didn't he die of syphillus?

Styrrell
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