In 1952, a joint resolution by Congress, signed by President Truman, declared an annual, national day of prayer.

I just wanted to correct your mistake on this. "Prince George" wasn't leading the country in 1952.

Nice language. You're right...they didn't teach me how to speak like that when I was in school. I guess the use of such words is beyond my intellectual level.

You don't get it. There are so many obstacles in our society to upward mobility that it just doesn't happen. This is independent of "desire". Like all the other uncomfortable facts presented to you in this thread, you can choose to ignore it and continue on in your beliefs.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

This is the great myth of the Republican party, that garners them the support of the non-upper class: "You too can become wealthy and powerful, if you just work hard enough". The fact, as revealed by studies, is that it is extremely rare for people to move up in "class" in this country. People in the lower economic strata stay there.

Ken Lehner

Ken, I have to respectfully disagree. I have seen significant improvement in my family as well as my wifes. The catch is, though, that it is multigenerational. That is, efforts by my grandfather improved the opportunities for my Dad and his siblings, and my parents efforts have made a big difference in the lives of me and my siblings. The same holds for my wife. What might not be true is the lottery like notion of striking it rich, out of no where as a twenty- or thirty-something. Yes, it does happen on rare occasions, and the media eats it up and reports on it to no end. But, I think the odds tend to rank up there with your chances at any state lottery. Can you remember pet rocks? 5 mil for little stones. "What an amazing country!"

I also mostly agree with Tri-Jeepy (sp?). Extensive natural resources and isolation has let this country grow and develop. Imagine where we would be if we had to rebuild the basic infrastructure every 20-40 years because of major wars. I think that is where the luck comes from. I also think the isolation and "unlimited" natural resources days are over. However, I would refer back to my argument above regarding why so many people immigrate here. There is a lot more opportunity here than in most of the world. College and graduate school opportunities here far outweigh those of a lot of countries. Through my undergrad and grad school days, I normally saw up to 40% Asians in most of my classes. They always told me the same thing, it was very difficult to get that opportunity in their own country.

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Behold the turtle! He makes progess only when he sticks his neck out. (James Bryant Conant)
GET OFF THE F*%KING WALL!!!!!!! (Doug Stern)
Brevity is the soul of wit. (William Shakespeare)

I'm not sure with what you are disagreeing. I said it is extremely rare, not that it doesn't happen.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

I'm not sure with what you are disagreeing. I said it is extremely rare, not that it doesn't happen.

From my perspective, it is not rare. One can make significant improvements by working at it (i.e. getting a good education), which I think happens quite often and usually through some self-sacrificing of parents. What is "extremely rare" is to make mega bucks overnight and end up buying a major league sports franchise the next year. Bill Gates, Steve Palmer (Microsoft - did I get the right name?), Micheal Dell, Mark Cuban are a few names that pop up due in part of being in the right place at the right time when the personal computer took off.

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Behold the turtle! He makes progess only when he sticks his neck out. (James Bryant Conant)
GET OFF THE F*%KING WALL!!!!!!! (Doug Stern)
Brevity is the soul of wit. (William Shakespeare)

Trio,

Great post, I am with you. Especially with the part about those posters (yes, they do know who they are) who almost never respond head-on to a relevant fact.

To the Bush supporters of that type, I offer this question (no answer required; I don't expect an honest one, anyway):

If all of the acts and omissions by Bush and his administration that are commonlly complained of - i.e., the War in Iraq, 9/11, the economy, the failure to capture Osama, prescription drug giveaway, etc. - were done by Clinton, you would be up in arms like nothing ever seen before, and the level of animosity would be literally ten times worse that today, correct?

We all know that's true.

Hi Ken,

I'd have to disagree with you on this.

I teach in a minority institution (UTEP) that has gone from being nowhere on the map, to being very good at getting grants, awarding PhD to students etc.
It's not MIT or CMU, but we (although I came on board only 3 years ago) but huge improvements to the point we get serious national recognition.

Besides, we get there, by admitting pretty much anyone, and turning many kids that come with (very very often) a weak education particularly in the scientific fields.

Most of them are hispanic kids, most of them work full time (and therefore take longer to graduate), most of them are the first generation in their family to go to school, most of them have their own family to support. For info, the median salary in el paso is $25,000 a year...not exactly rich people (and this is skewed by a part of the population making much more).

They are VERY motivated, eager to learn etc. Our students, (computer science) do get very good jobs at IBM, Intel, NASA etc. and we get praised all the time for the work done and the education they get.

So yes, it is definitely possible, and it is much more frequent than you might think. I see it every day.

But it takes very dedicated kids, and instructors (I could have gone to much better colleges, but it makes me feel much better to feel that I can make a difference whereas teaching for instance at Stanford, you make no difference...the kids are highly selected already and would get a degree with or without you).

[reply]Trio,
To the Bush supporters of that type, I offer this question (no answer required; I don't expect an honest one, anyway):

If all of the acts and omissions by Bush and his administration that are commonlly complained of - i.e., the War in Iraq, 9/11, the economy, the failure to capture Osama, prescription drug giveaway, etc. - were done by Clinton, you would be up in arms like nothing ever seen before, and the level of animosity would be literally ten times worse that today, correct?

We all know that's true.[/reply]

What a good point, since I am also sure the Democrats would (for the most part) unabashedly defend Clinton in this case! Let's face it, at this point most people who would take the effort to defend or post in defense of a certain candidate are ideologically set in stone, don't you think? - I know there are still some undecideds, of course.

Sorry Ken, you are just wrong on this. There is more class mobility in the US than in any country in history. Read "The Millionaire Next Door." Great book. The large majority of wealthy, including much of the Forbes 400 riches individuals are first generation millionaires. In my family there has been tremendous mobility. From nothing to wealthy, and in many cases back down again. This is typical in this country.

If are determined to work hard, show inititive, strike out on your own, and save money, it is pretty hard not to become a millionaire in this country.

Two generations ago, my grandfather had a sixth grade education and carried mail for 50 years. His son, my father, somehow survived flying bombing missions over Japan and went to college. His son, me, went Ivy League.

I hire labor, mostly non English speaking Hispanic, to work my construction project. Some of their grandchildren will go Ivy League. I wouldn't be surprised if one of them wound up hiring one of my grandchildren to work his construction project. God bless this country. We move up and down through the economic scale according to our own drive and hard work. I wouldn't have it any other way.

I don't understand the line on the economy. The economy is doing great, especially considering all that has happened over the last five years. If either Bush or Clinton advanced the economic policies that enabled this, they would get an A in my book. The best example in the Democratic Party right now is Bill Richardson. He is a Democratic tax cutting governor, former Clinton cabinet member, who is doing a fantastic job as governor of New Mexico. If your team is lucky, Kerry will pick him for the VP slot.

I do bash Bush over the Farm Bill, the Medicare Bill, and the Campaign Finance Bill that he had promised to veto. See my posts above.

Unlike Saddam, Osama is hard core and capturing him after he has run to ground is extremely difficult. There is no president bashing involved. They don't have that power.

The level of animosity is just about as high as it could be, so no you are not correct. Just read this thread for proof.

Huh?

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"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin
"Don't you see the rest of the country looks upon New York like we're left-wing, communist, Jewish, homosexual pornographers? I think of us that way sometimes and I live here." - Alvy Singer, "Annie Hall"

And those who don't make it up the ladder, quit, and don't move up place the blame on others rather than taking responsibility for their own lives and futures.

It's a convienient excuse to blame others for your own demise. But when it comes down to it...it's a cruel world we live in...and if you place your destiny in the hands of others you have no one else to blame but yourself.

Brian286,

Once again no response to any of my points. How sad. Just demands to leave the country and pointing out my profanity.

I apologize if I upset your Puritan upbringing but such profane language is required for this subject because your fearless leader put us in this profane situation.

When you are ready to debate the merits of whats wrong with this President please post. In the meantime, if all you have can do is point the naught words I use and scream for my deportation please shut up, put your blinders on, and return to the flock.

"fearless leader put us in this profane situation. "

He is our leader and it looks like he's going to be our leader for another term.

If you dislike him so much I suggest you spend your time recruiting more votes for Mr. Kerry. I've always believed that if you don't like something do something to change it....your time could be better spent elsewhere.

TriRabi, one word - Valium

Really, this is a forum for discussion, relax a little. Unless, is the Rabi short for rabid??

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Behold the turtle! He makes progess only when he sticks his neck out. (James Bryant Conant)
GET OFF THE F*%KING WALL!!!!!!! (Doug Stern)
Brevity is the soul of wit. (William Shakespeare)

Damn for some reason, the html formatting doesn't work on my quotes. So, I have no idea where the economy questioning is coming from (unless it's a previous post of mine that I already forgot) since I think you might be confusing me with someone I tried to quote in my post.

That said, Bill Richardson amazes me. I couldn't believe that he pulled of cutting those taxes and other "conservative" measures. I later found out about hidden raises that snuck in along with the personal income tax cuts.

He, however, plays the usual game of politics and there are tons of cries about his ties with lobbyists and refusals to work with or listen to opposing members in the NM government. Yada yada. The only thing he has really done to bother me is require the state school's regents to provide him a signed resignation letter when they get into office. That was pretty bogus.

FYI, I live in NM.

Vitus, It's cool, you're not being rude. I see I need to clarify my comments. There were two decisive battles that stopped the Islamic concept of advancement of religion by the sword. Poiters 732 AD (present day France) Christians kept the Muslims from advancing to northern Europe. Lepanto 1571 Christians turned back the Muslim onslaught in southern europe. We need to understand that in the Muslim world these events, centuries ago, are still very fresh wounds. And they need to be avenged.

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

Since you are in NM, I am sure you are better informed than I about Richardson's work. I just get bits and pieces from Florida, but I like those bits and pieces a lot.

As a tax cutter of any flavor he is probably doomed as a Presidential candidate in the Democratic party. That is too bad. This country needs two competing rational partys. Right now we don't have that. We are all worse off for that.

NM is not large, but Gore won it by only 400 votes last time around. It is a swing state by any definition, so it is conceivable that Kerry could pick him as VP.

Don't forget that the muslims ocupied Spain for 7 centuries and while some people view them as a threat, they have given the world some valuable culture. For example, the number zero was brought to us by muslims as Romans did not have it in their numbering system. The bathtub... yep, the muslims created it. Lets not forget that Christians have also lost important battles against other religions.

$5 say that Rumsfeld will loose his job within the next month.

Fasttwitch you're on!

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Craig

That is a dangerous bet...I an thinking that maybe it is time "Rummie" to move on. I can not fault Bush for the fact that objectives are not clear. Though I agree 110% with the Iraq occupation - we should call it what it is - we decided to occupy Iraq - and intend to give it back to them when they do what we want. This may go againt the "we are not nation building" that Bush ran on years ago - however in the end it was the right thing to do for so many Iraqi's and the entire region over there. We can not let a few zelots ruin our glory.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Brian286,

Pray tell, how do expect him for another 4 years? Check the latest Gallup Poll on CNN. Your man did not win the popular vote (unless you count the Supreme Court).

As for changing the situation, I believe I am. Rather than following the herd I am standing up and screaming "I mad as hell and I am not going to take it anymore." I do support Kerry, and do encourage others to vote for him. But lets face it Bushy, this election is not about Kerry, it will be a referendum on GWB and things are not going well for him.

"your time could be better spent elsewhere." Is that another threat to leave for Canada since I don't like it here? Once again, instead of defending this a-hole with policy arguments or facts you attack me.

How. . . BUSH of you!

I am not a Democrat so I can't answer your question (though I lean left). I, for one, would be calling for Clinton's head, just as I call for Bush's head, given these types of transgressions. I would similarly ignore any public questions and innuendo over Bush's sex life or his statements re same.

The funny thing about Bush supporters is that most of them would call themselves conservatives. Bush is nothing of the sort.