I have not advocated disregarding the data from any measuring device. I have argued for an ecclectic and complete examination of a topic that included more than one investigational tool or data point.

In the case of power meters my statements are to the effect that they not be used as an exclusive diagnostic tool for fitness and bike fit evaluation. No one tool can diagnose optimal bike fit. I hear a general consensus in some circles that testing position with a power meter is "the last word" in positioning. It is not. It is a significant part of the picture, but only a part of the picture. A review of my written comments will verify this.

In the matter of aerobars I would argue the X-rays say only a little about aerobar use except to illustrate the skeletal orientation in several positions. My opinion is the skeletal orientation while gripping an "S" bend aerobar extension is more stressful than gripping a ski bend. However, I did not develop that hypothesis using an X-ray. I developed it anecdotally while using the products onthe trainer, on the road and in races. My ideas and opinions surrounding "S" bends are not scientifically proven in my article, but they do include the X-rays, well over a year of personal experience with the equipment and a broad survey of aerobars available and with feedback from a large number of persons using them.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

I agree completely with you, Tom. Any good exercise oriented practitioner would always tell you to keep your wrist in a neutral position; be it weightlifting, or any similar stressing position. Just makes sense to not crank wrists down long term....

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Gary Geiger
http://www.geigerphoto.com Professional photographer

TEAM KiWAMi NORTH AMERICA http://www.kiwamitri.com, Rudy Project http://www.rudyprojectusa.com, GU https://guenergy.com/shop/ ; Salming World Ambassador; https://www.shopsalming.com

You are probably aware of the UCI rune stipulating a 75 cm max. horizontal distance between the tip of the extensions and the BB center. Also you might have noticed a recent trend to ride steep in UCI sanctioned timed events (mostly among CSC and Discovery riders). Of course there's a rule for that too - tip of saddle should be at least 5 cm behind center of BB (with a possible "morphological" exception to be made for smaller riders) Now, if you are going to sail as much up the wind as possible under UCI rules and move your saddle as far forward as allowed (and even trim the nose of the saddle upto the minimum allowable saddle length) then you'll need to move your extensions further out as well and find out that 75 cm is barely enough for a comfortable fit unless you are like 5'6" maybe. An obvious solution is to tilt the extensions either up or down in order to stay within the horizontal limit with up being perhaps better than down. I think, there's another UCI rule that requires the tip of the extensions to be no higher than the top of the saddle, and this is why they made Floyd lower his extensions before the first TT at the 2006 Tour.


In short, to me, this is an attemt to squeeze out more power by riding steep and hope (or maybe know) that this is going to offset the aerodynamic determent of pointing the extensions up.


Nick.

"I hear a general consensus in some circles that testing position with a power meter is "the last word" in positioning. "

The one, single, solitary person I hear making this statement is you, Tom.


"In the matter of aerobars I would argue the X-rays say only a little about aerobar use except to illustrate the skeletal orientation in several positions."

While I admire the committment it takes to subject oneself to radiation in an attempt to produce cool looking pictures that are essentially meaningless, I can't help but find myself astonished that a) the results of these X-rays wouldn't have been obvious well in advance to anyone who had ever bothered to open an anatomy textbook, b) a radiologist would go along with this stunt, and c) these same results would be percieved as probative or worthwhile.


"My ideas and opinions surrounding "S" bends are not scientifically proven in my article.."

Yup.

"...but they do include the X-rays..."

Which, as in your crank test, prove nothing useful at all, but look pretty darn cool, and do a great job of convincing some folks of, well, something...


"I have not advocated disregarding the data from any measuring device. I have argued for an ecclectic and complete examination of a topic that included more than one investigational tool or data point."

I'm with TBG and several others on this. You have an established track record of disputing convincing statistical and scientific data that is contradictory to your personal biases and preference, while simultaneously you attempt to present glossy pseudo-science and rhetorical gimmickry as valid, meaningful, and useful.

I guess this is good for business.


.


.

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Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/

No, sorry. Not really. I disagree.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

"No, sorry. Not really. I disagree. "

With what? It's bad for business?


.

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Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/

Fredly,

Use this as your LR sig line if you like:

"Fredly's comments are 100% right on the money!"

And your conclusion is too, this is all good for business and that is why Tom D keeps doing it... over, and over, and OVER again.

I look forward to the dy when some sort of reason prevades the UCI rulings. It has long since struck me that the 5cm rule alone is somewhat arbitrary. Why not 2cm? Or for that matter, why not 0cm?

The "rules for a competitive bicycle" are, as I understand it, an attempt to level the playing field, limit experimentation with positions such as Boardman and Obree and prevent general morphing of the bike toward a fully faired recumbent. The current specificatons go way beyond that initiative. As a result, they are handing out morphological exemptions like Powerbars from the team car.

Hey, what are the requirements for a morphological exemption anyway?

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Wow. I have a lot of respect for your posts, as well as fredly's too, but I think you are both off-base here. I have been in Tom's store a number of times with the purpose of changing to "S" bends or straight aero bars, mainly because I thought it looked cool and might facilitate a better transfer of power; every time he has talked me out of it. This is not consistent with the motives your ascribe to him.

This is only one example of a situation where he could have acceded to my request and then charged me later to change it.

I am a relatively new triathlete, but Tom has more than once saved me from making a poor decision that would cost me in the long run.

Let's just say that people like me or fredly are not his target market. But by the looks of it, you certainly are ;-) <-genuine smiley, not canadian.

;-) <-genuine smiley, not canadian.

There's a Canadian smiley? I did not know this.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

It's a passive-aggressive smiley. I was told that passive-aggressiveness is a trait of the typical canadian personality. The data points that I have certainly point towards that conclusion ;-) <- genuine, again

You'll just have to wonder. Does this mean you won't serve as my coach?

[reply][b];-) <-genuine smiley, not canadian. [/b]
[b][/b]
There's a Canadian smiley? I did not know this.
[b]
[/b][/reply]\

yes, it is MUCH better looking than the normal smiley. And quite a bit skinnier than the one their brothers and sisters to the south use. ;)

Clearly, you need to x-ray some Canadians to support your conclusion.

Easy on the Canadians. Do you have enough knowledge of enough Canadians for a credible sample size... ;-]

(I'm not really sure what nation the above smiley represents)

i was trying to get the picture of the lead group in hawaii....heres most of the guy .....all of them with a s bend or straight extension and broke wrist.... i dont think they had the chance to see the x ray before making there choice for hawaii..... anyway, i do love s bend and straight extension...probably the most comfy set up i ever had and also as some other positive property...... these are the teacher of our sport.. !!! now...please...lets not think posiitoning is like sending someone on the moon....it s not very complicated...experiment and you will find out....look around and the top guys and girls as often they have good insight..... and enjoy riding that freaking bike!!!!!! go ride on a nice quiet road with a set of allen keys and make changes on feeling until everything feels right.... when you reach your normann stadler position.....keep that position and ride lots to get really fast.!!!!

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

Only if you use the faulty logic that you exhibited in that first post ;-)

What fredly meant is that it's pretty clear that Tom D's motives are not to sell these or those aerobars, but to spin himself as an expert. By creating attention upon him and his business, he gets more clients. It's a good marketing strategy, that he's been using for several years now. I am pretty sure that the volume of his sales that he does online is a lot higher than some shops that have an actual online shop.

I always thought that a genuine Canadian smiley would come with a Tuque. <:-)

Now that's Canadian!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I got ya . . . but aren't you the pot calling the kettle black? And FWIW, I have yet to find a reason for Tom to not to be my expert.

Also, you should be careful about throwing around the "Canadian" term; South Park devotees (I am not one of them) ascribe a different meaning to the term.

Fair up mate, and good man for calling Demerly out. Here's the rub though- i just hit your name to take a look at your expert advice. There is none. Matter of fact mate, I read through the first few pages of your posts and didn't see a single contribution to this forum other than smart-ass wise cracks, back-handed comments, insults and name calling or joke making. Usually at some other blokes expense whose just trying to make good.
You talk a lot of shit mate, but you don't say much. Same with you mate fredly- looked him up as well. least he has something to once in a while. you just make wise cracks. The only thing from your posts is something valuable. Got anything to say on the forum othe than bollocks about somebody else? near as i see three pages of your crap at least you don't.

I certainly appears to be a trend; this year it will probably be the Landis-type position. Whatever works, right?

One trend that I am happy did not catch on is Farris' man-bra.

You talk funny. And no, I don't wish to mate with you.

nop...not a trend...... and most of these guys have been in this position for many many years.... and faris as s bend also...look closer.... i do have close up of his bar but can t find the pictures.....he is using them because they are comfy and have other good side (aero)

it s definitly not a trend........

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

Nonsense, I've seen paulo agree with someone at least twice

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Forget speedwork. Speedwork is the icing on the cake and you don't have a cake yet. - MattinSF

Basically they have 9 tenants, live life to the fullest, do not turn the cheak, and embrace the 7 deadly since. - TheForge (on satanists)