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I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos)
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I've long suspected "S" bends are a bad choice for people. This feature on our website summarizes our thoughts on why "S" bends aren't optimal for most triathletes:


See the feature here:

http://www.bikesportmichigan.com/features/sbend.shtml

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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thats pretty much my opinion as well. which was arrived at in kind of a light bulb moment: "damn, this just dont feel good ... looks cool though."

*****
"In case of flood climb to safety"
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Great article - thanks!


------------------------------
Another IM in 2016 - hopefully..
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [jcurtis] [ In reply to ]
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I felt the same way. Ive time trialed on some rough courses and have had discomfort in my wrists after racing.
I don't know if I'd get rid of my s bends though since I do short course. I'd never use them for the Ironman distance though.
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Good article! The first time I saw S bends, I thought they looked like an sure way to develope carpal tunnel syndrome.
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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I couldn't agree more Tom. I tried to ride with some last summer and had to switch them out. After 17 seasons riding the conventional bars they caused a lot of pain in my wrists and forearms..... but they do look cool:)
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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I'm guessing that straight extensions are no better and perhaps even worse in terms of comfort?

Dave in VA
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Tom,

Thanks for this. I have felt this way since these bars first came out. They have NEVER felt comfortable and I have been surprised at how popular they have become.

I agree with your point in the article, where you say that they may be a good choice for ITT specialists and some triathletes, but for the most part, most triathletes will be better off on more convential aerobars


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Last edited by: Fleck: Feb 26, 07 9:49
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Nice article and I agree 100%.

I felt this discomfort the first time I used them but thought I was missing something since "everyone" seemed to like them.

After racing on them 2x I took them off and went back to regular ski bend style aerobars.

They surely look very aero but I can see that style having a significant or any impact on aerodynamics at that location. Floyd Landis definitely confirmed that with his wacky aerobar way tilted up position.
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Tom, as usual a great read. I found myself really wanting s-bends for looks but I simply couldn't imagine being comfortable with them. If I need to pull up against them such as for climbing i simply choke up and get a similar effect to the straight or s bend extensions.

Dan
http://www.aiatriathlon.com

http://www.aiatriathlon.com
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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I think the ski style aerobars are better for the body. It's just in a neutral position and feels comfortable. The S bends are something that I never bought into. Of course I never tried them but they just don't look natural.

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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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As you always say though its all about the fit. On the regular bends I was always gripping below the beln on my vision bars and never on the upturned part of the bar. I got a new aerobar setup with the s bends and run them a bit strange whereby the bend turns inwards so that I can run the pads wider to help breathing but and have my hands relatively close together. I have been adjusting it for a while but for my hands and arms the s bends have been the most natural grip so far.
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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I wonder if the recent trend of TT riders angling their bars more upward is a result of obtaining a more relaxed wrist position? It would seem by doing that, they are creating a virtual "in between" angle.

MJ
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [DC Pattie] [ In reply to ]
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The straight ones were tough for me to use also- even more so thatn "S" bends.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
Last edited by: Tom Demerly: Feb 26, 07 9:54
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [M J Moquin] [ In reply to ]
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I wondered that too. I didn't get to see the Tour of California time trial stages so I missed the postures of the riders we saw there. I can't feature a guess as to why or how those Landis-style positions benefit the rider. It would be interesting to find our more...

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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I guess I'm about the only dissenting opinion here but I really like the S bends. I think I know why. I'm tall (6'6") with long arms and big hands so I find it really conforatable to ride in the bends with my forearms turned over so that my hands are pretty much parallel to the ground with my thumbs in. Kind of like how most people would put their hands if they were relaxing them on a desk. I find it really relaxed when I need it to be but easy enough to pull up when I want to. I get away with it I think because my hands are big enough to turn in and still grip the bars and I can easily shift with my index finger. It helps that my arms are long wnough that I can turn my arms over easily between the pads and the end of the bar. I agree that I couldn't ride long in the position in the x-ray, that's for sure. I was just never confortable or relaxed in all the years I spend with ski bend bars. I'll agree that they are not for eveyone but they can work for some, even slack AGers like me.
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Oh, I thought they were so cool and had them put on. Have HATED them since!!! I have a new bike on order and you better believe it does not have s bends!!
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Your picture here (and I haven't read the article yet) makes the s-bend essentially a straight bar that isn't as low as most straight bars would be. What I've wanted to find is something like a pistol grip -- a deeper s-bend much like the old Scott RCO (and I got a pair of those thinking I might be able to saw off the clamps and put them in some Profile clamps, but alas, the extensions would be WAY too short). The Blackwell extensions look to be a good option, though I've never touched a set.

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Some are born to move the world to live their fantasies...

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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [spirogeek] [ In reply to ]
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You're not the only one. I'm "only" 6'2, but I have very long limbs and ride exactly like you describe. I mainly grip with just my middle, ring & pinkie finger on each hand. The index & thumb are used for shifting and my hands mostly just lay on top of the extensions with my thumbs touching in between.

I have my T2+ extensions a little past the max insertion line and they're just fine. I always felt "jammed up" with the ski bends that I've tried - like they didn't allow me to stretch out.

I've found that having my shifters "flipped" helps alot with the difficult shifting issue mentioned in the article.

Steve


Steve

"If you ain't first, you're last." Reese Bobby Talladega Nights
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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The depth of the bend matters considerably. The r bend from Visiontech is virtually unusable, but the T2's are better. The older deep s bend from Hed was very nice. I like and use the t2's.
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [M J Moquin] [ In reply to ]
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Bah, why didn't you post that article last week before I bought a pair of Sbends to replace my ski tip Heds....Grrrr..... :D


Mad
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [The_Mickstar] [ In reply to ]
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I have to join the ranks of the dissenters. I have been using T2+ Cobras for the last year and absolutely love them. I never could find the right "fit" with the "wind punchers," so I tried the s-bends. I started with the Hed s-bends, but, found the Profile Design to be much more comfortable. However, my wrists look absolutely nothing like your picture. My s-bends fit more like a pistol grip, like another poster mentioned. They are in a natural position and do not bend down at all. I used this position all last season and for IMMoo.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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The pic shows more of an "R" bend than a normal "S" bend. I find the S-bend gives me more options on where to place my hands than the traditional bars. I can lay my hands flat (like the first pic) if I am hammering or I can hold the curved part of the bar and put the shifters between my fingers to give myself a wrist postion very similar to the second photo. Just my $.02

R - Bend: S-Bend
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [bpq] [ In reply to ]
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We shot a lot of films on the X-ray machine, holding several different brands and bends of aerobars. I have a folder full of X-rays on my desk from this. The bottom line was that there is substantially greater stresses exerted when bending or adducting the wrist forward than there is to maintain a more relaxed position.



Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [english muffin] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
As you always say though its all about the fit. On the regular bends I was always gripping below the beln on my vision bars and never on the upturned part of the bar. I got a new aerobar setup with the s bends and run them a bit strange whereby the bend turns inwards so that I can run the pads wider to help breathing but and have my hands relatively close together. I have been adjusting it for a while but for my hands and arms the s bends have been the most natural grip so far.

Same here ..... I was always moving my hands down the bent portion until they were just about gripping the horizontal portion, even when I had the bars adjusted backwards to get my best fit.

I'm also relatively tall (6'-1") so maybe that has something to do with it?? Seems it's the taller riders that are saying they like the fit with them here.

I just got the Vision Tech Trimax R-bends for X-mas and have only put about 300 trainer miles on them though and haven't ridden them in anger in a race yet, so we'll see how they actually hold up in that situation later.

_____________________________________________
Rick, "Retired" hobbyist athlete
Trying to come back slowly from acute A-Fib
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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Ditto. My wrists are not bent at all on my T2s. Very comfortable as far as I am concerned. My wife is also very comfortable using her s-bends as well, though I have no idea what they are comparable to: they are some random aluminum extensions we got from HED that she's running on a Carbon-X basebar.
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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And someone at analyticcyling did a frontal area analysis to show they presented more wind resistance, which your xRay confirms.

It would be nice to have "regular" bends with shorter "up" sections since many people don't need all the "grip" area.
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [brider] [ In reply to ]
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The wrist relief bend of the Blackwell aerobar has some promise:








Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [reggiedog] [ In reply to ]
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Holy crap. So I can just have an x-ray taken instead of going to the wind tunnel? Think of all the money I could save!
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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The x-rays look cool and all, but I fail to see how they prove your "confort" point. Confort is an individually perceived concept, not proven by the x-rays. But they look cool though.
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Your analysis is not complete and doesn't prove anything.

I am 5'9" and use the Oval Conepts A900 with S-bends. I have the bars machined down one inch to better fit me.

The way that your x-rays and photos do not show the correct way to hold the bars. The wrists are more rotated into a more natural position and they ride more on top of the bars than on the side.

When I had the ski-style bars, I found myself moving my hands into a more s-bend style position.

I rode an IM and tons of training on my current s-bars. No pain, no issues whatsoever.

I also have read somewhere that the s-bend allows, somehow, your lungs to expand a little easier.
Last edited by: Learn: Feb 26, 07 10:49
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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I am going to go against the grain:

First off: I do ride them as shorty bars and find them way more usefull than upturned extensions I had before.
For that use (and in general):

Why do you need to put a firm grip on the extensions?
I never do that. You use the bars to steer the bike. A firm grip is not necessary. I normally just rest the palms of my hands against the extensions from the outside. My wrist is also way lower than depicted on the photo.
I rarely use the position depicted. If I use it I will really pull on them. And this is only happening when I need additional power and use the arms for leverage. You can't do that with the grip pictured on the right.

Nice spin of things, so. I could distort things a similar way and make the argument why riding aero-position is bad for your lower back. In that case I just would take a pic with the pelvis tilted incorrectly. I still say it all boils down to proper positioning.

Since you are talking only about "most triathletes", I am happy to report that I am different.

___________________________________________
Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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It also depends on the pad placement. My r-bends have three different stack heights to them and after a few miles on them the first time I went to the intermediate height ones and it made a difference.

_____________________________________________
Rick, "Retired" hobbyist athlete
Trying to come back slowly from acute A-Fib
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
The wrist relief bend of the Blackwell aerobar has some promise:





Holy crap! I'm no expert, but with that many spacers, wrist position looks like it is the least of his problems.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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Yup.

Anyway. Interesting aerobars.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Daremo] [ In reply to ]
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I have never had any wrist pain using my Vision TriMax R bends at all. My hands just lay on the bar with my wrist fairly straight unless I need to steer or change gears.

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [de-tri-mental] [ In reply to ]
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I do use them as shorties also, and I pull up on them usually in that posture.

Remember, this is not a convenient, blanket condemantion. It is not. It is an assertion that "S" bends may not be optimal for most triathletes.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Good article, Tom. I agree with you. I've tried S-bends on two different occasions (two different bars), and ended up going back to 'ski bend' bars both times. I tried to give them the best shot I could, going on short rides, long rides, hard rides, easy rides... never could get comfortable. They certainly look cool, but aren't worth the compromise in comfort. I'm also glad you pointed out the poor shifting ergonomics- this is the biggest knock against s-bends for me. They just don't work well within the confines of today's bar-end shifters. It is very difficult to operate the shifters while in the small ring or smaller cogs (i.e. when the shifters are pointing down... waaaay down in the case of s-bends). No thanks!
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [gregk] [ In reply to ]
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See, that's funny because I find the shifting very easy, especially when the levers are pointed down. My index finger is right behind them and I just can push up to go up in gear. Again, that's just been my experience.

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [english muffin] [ In reply to ]
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i do exactly the same thing. i don't believe that the s-bends i have are quite perfect for where i'd like my hands to be, but i certainly use them more as intended than the old style. actually, by turning them inwards you hand position becomes flatter - as if you're preparing to dog-paddle. ...
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [gregclimbs] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah but I don't think the majority of riders who like the S bends are riding them like that. If I look at how I ride ski bends vs S bends my thumb forms about the same angle to my wrist. It's more of a rotation from up and down to a more flat position and won't really change the frontal area.
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Bucky] [ In reply to ]
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Carpal Tunnel? Your kidding me right? Now my S-bends are going to give me Carpal Tunnel..

Carpal Tunnel Sydrome is caused by repetitive motion.

_________________
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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I just put these on my bike and I like them a lot. A good in between position.
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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I'm mostly curious about who posed for all those X-rays. While I admire your dedication to finding ultimate fit, and the pictures are cool, that seems like a fair amount of exposure for something that is somewhat readily apparent to the naked eye. How many shots were taken all in?


<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Khai] [ In reply to ]
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Ummmm...yeah.

I wasn't gonna give you a hard time 'cause you get enough of that around here, and I figured it was only the three films hanging on the view boxes....but a whole folder-full? No more casual x-ray exposure for you, and that's an order! And frankly your Dr. friend should know better, with all due respect.

You've no doubt had enough exposure to ionizing radiation during all of your Indiana Jones impersonations.....no more playing with the x-ray machine......okey-dokey??


Dan DeMaio
---------------------------------------------------------
Life is like riding a bicycle.
To keep your balance you must keep moving.
- Albert Einstein
Last edited by: tryemdad: Feb 26, 07 11:54
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Tom,

Interesting stuff...

I had an adaption phase last summer; the key for me was not death gripping them, and turning the wrists slightly out... I do think the S-Bends offer more options(e.g. hand postions) for athletes doing short and long-course distance events.

Ski-Bends are likely the *most* comfortable option for athletes (meaning, I don't think they would cause wrist tension and require adapting), and given that you run a business, prolly the best to suggest to customers.

Ultimately though, the sport of triathlon itself isn't very comfortable when you get right down to it. :)
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [bpq] [ In reply to ]
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I agree. I switched from tradition aero bars to "S" bend (T2+) a couple of years ago and absolutely love the range of positions I can now hold with my hands. The traditional bars just never felt right and I was always moving my wrist down to the flat section. I didn’t identify with any of the info provided on the article at all…

Jorge Martinez
Head Coach - Sports Science
E3 Training Solutions, LLC
@CoachJorgeM
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Nice article.
Place your wrist in the Sbend position with the elbow only slightly bent and then gradually flex the elbow. Notice how the position becomes more comfortable as the elbow angle becomes more acute.
I think for those who are otherwise comfortable with a near 90 degree elbow bend while in the aerobars, the Sbend may be quite comfortable.
As the elbow angle increases, the Sbend wrist position becomes less comfortable.
As someone else posted, the Landis aerobar position (aerobars tilted up) is one way to reduce this elbow angle and make the wrist more comfortable.
Now I am beginning to wonder how pressing against the elbow pads might influence the forces applied to the pedals through the 6 o'clock thru 8 o'clock position.
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [tryemdad] [ In reply to ]
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I was wondering why all my hair was falling out.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Comaboy] [ In reply to ]
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You make a very valid point that we discussed when shooting the X-rays. We did the X-rays without the elbow pads on. Now, truthfully, I don't see it making a hill of beans difference. I wanted to like "S" bends since they look cool. I tried them, I fit them, I adjusted them, I talked to aerobar designers about them, I adjsted them some more, I rode them, I raced on them, I tried multiple brands. Heck, I'd still try them...

So far though, I can't get them to work for me. My experience mimics most of our customers too. We just had to make sure we had enough ski bend extensions we could afford to give away on new bikes before we posted this review... :0

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [tryemdad] [ In reply to ]
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Tom, Tom, Tom. X-rays went out with ski bends. Please resubmit with MRI images.

I can't yet speak to long term comfort, but I do find that with the T2 extensions I have more variety in hand position fore and aft as well as neutral to pronated positioning of the forearm and wrist. Like others have said, pronating and placing one's hands flat on top of, or along the inside of the extensions seems reasonably comfortable and is safer than the image you show where one's fist is clenched above the extensions.


Coach at KonaCoach Multisport
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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No sorry...that's just old-age! ;-)

Just don't get any bright ideas about using x-ray to test saddle cut-outs, alright?


Dan DeMaio
---------------------------------------------------------
Life is like riding a bicycle.
To keep your balance you must keep moving.
- Albert Einstein
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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That totally sucks!!! They look so much cooler! I'm bummed!
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Daremo] [ In reply to ]
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Na, I am 6'5" and Ves got me the normal bars that fit just perfectly. It is all about fit.

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Edit on Tom's signature:

"Take a look at the Slowtwitch Classifieds for ST exclusive discounts and sales on Blackwell "wrist-relief" Aerobars!!"
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [dongustav] [ In reply to ]
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I don't even have any in the store!

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Check your PM Tom.

Regards,

Bryce.
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe you should!! Your endorsement means alot to people here, I'm selling my s-bend stocks and trolling the classifieds to see how many will start dumping theirs cheap in favor of single-bends. ;)
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [UK Gear Muncher] [ In reply to ]
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Roger that Sir. I am juggling two fits and three web updates for tommorow right now so I'm a trifle over the top. I'll look in on it ASAP.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Impressive multi tasking as always Tom !
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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The irony for me is that I was considering them when they first came out and was convince to go ahead and get them based on a review by ... Tom Demerly!

I hated them from the moment I put them on. After a few days, I took them off and sold them on ebay at a loss.
.

Bob C.

The "science" on any matter can never be settled until every possible variable is taken into account.
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [UK Gear Muncher] [ In reply to ]
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Check your "in" box My Friend.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Done and replied (but only when you have time).
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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I just moved to Profile s bends from my Vision ski ends.....They have taken a bit to get used to......and for some reason my left wrist is uncomfortable...a little. While my right is just fine. I do feel that I am a bit more powerful with the s bends.....I am going to give it a little more time for final verdict......but I think that I will stay with the S bends.

I shall never misuse Rex Kwon Do
I shall be a champion of freedom and justice
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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impressive initiative and interesting info.

not sure i agree fully, but in any case, please please tell me that you did not expose your (and/or your wife's, friend's, etc.) arms to x-rays just for the sake of this web article !

x-rays are powerul ionizing radiation and are not good for the human body. it was really not worth it for the sake of this blurb.





Where would you want to swim ?
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Bladed] [ In reply to ]
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I own a pair of the HED Clip-lite's (S-bend)and the Oval A910's (single bend). I have the Hed's on my tri bike and the Oval on my road bike. I thought that I would try an experiment and switch just the extensions around and to my surprise, I was very happy with the results.

I really like the single bend Oval extensions with my Hed Clip-lites on the tri bike especially with the ways the shifters mount and the feeling over a long ride.

On the road bike with the Hed s-bend extensions and the Oval mounting system, I really like the position the s-bends give. I have them angled in just a bit towards the center and I am using a profile bridge. I can stay in the aero position for about a hour at a time which is fine for training.

It took a lot of trial and error over the years to get to this conclusion but I am glad that I tried it. The single bend for long rides and races just feels better to me on a tri bike. The s-bend feels a lot better to me on my road bike and I think this has to do with positioning as well.

When I am on the road bike, the s-bends feel very good and I do not have any problems with my hands hurting even after about an hour.

I guess it just boils down to a lot of trial and error to find what works best for you. Everyone is different and this works great for me.
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [GregX] [ In reply to ]
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I thought it was relatively safe. I only did about 20.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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20, wow.

well, no one can accuse you for not 'putting it all on the line' for your business and for your customers ...

please, for your health, don't do any more of these (x-ray articles), ok ?





Where would you want to swim ?
Last edited by: GregX: Feb 26, 07 14:09
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [GregX] [ In reply to ]
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Yes I think Tom proved his point.

C'mon people, everyone get those double bend extensions BACK out of the bits box please...........
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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I never liked S-bends and couldn't understand how some opt for them. Just because something is new, doesn't mean it's better. It doesn't take x-rays to figure that one out, either.

�The greater danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it.� -Michelangelo

MoodBoost Drink : Mood Support + Energy.
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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I hate to be the odd man out, but..... I tried the three extention options last year & I found the s-bends to be the most comfortable.


Paul "Speedy" Gonsalves
http://www.rollingthundercanada.com
RollingThunderCanada

Canadian distributor for HED Cycling, Blue Competition, Akona Biospeed & Aerus Composites


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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Speedy] [ In reply to ]
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fiddlesticks.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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:-)

Fiddlestick/Devil stick (also Devil Stick, devilstick, devil-stick, Rhythm Stick, etc., or plural forms) manipulation is a form of gyroscopic juggling, or equilibristics and is generally considered to be one of the 'circus arts'. Sometimes called "devil-sticking" other terms often used are: "twirling", "sticking" and "stick juggling".
A "set" of devil sticks is made up of three pieces - the baton and two control sticks - but it will often be called a "pair of sticks".
Typically if a center stick is not tapered (i.e. a straight dowel or rod) and possesses tassels at its end, then it is known as a "Flower Stick" (as the tassels, when the stick is spun, will twirl outwards and resemble an open flower). This term is also now used to describe a straight center stick with any weights (not just tassels) at its end and sometimes refers to hybrid sticks which are both tapered and have weights. Tapered sticks without end weights are known simply as Devil Sticks. Flower sticks can also be properly called "Devil Sticks" as that is the more general term.

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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I've long suspected "S" bends are a bad choice for people. This feature on our website summarizes our thoughts on why "S" bends aren't optimal for most triathletes:


See the feature here:

http://www.bikesportmichigan.com/features/sbend.shtml

Odd...I wonder if that twist could cause this...



----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Nah, I like 'em. I could never get comfortable on my old "normal" bends, but I love my s-bends. I think it's a completely personal thing.

-C

------------------------------------------------------------
Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Now I am quote curious. I am going to borrow a set of carbon bars and shoot my left hand from a couple views to see how the bones in the area of my collapsed Ulnar look....I may be your first lab rat Tom....I know a few folks with digital X-Rays...

----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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Chip, post the outcome if you can My Friend. That would be interesting.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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I need to hit my LBS and borrow some carbon ones, mine are Ti and will kill the image. If I look at your films it is kind of obvious that the area I have issues with is quite compressed...now take that for about 5-6 hours and you get the same potential results as one would with DVT on a long flight...maybe.

----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Trigirlpink] [ In reply to ]
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For more info on Carpal Tunnel......

http://www.ninds.nih.gov/..._tunnel.htm#82233049
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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We used carbon fiber bars in our X-rays for that reason- to make the imaging easier. Part of the reason I got nuked so bad with the X-ray machne was we shot a lot of images getting the thing set up right. I mean, I am really not at risk of anything here am I....?!?







Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [spirogeek] [ In reply to ]
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Exactly my situation. only, i've got deda bars that are pretty much a pistol grip, and i attempt to lay my hands flat across them.
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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didn't read the article.... but those x rays are gorgeous. Bright and shiny pretty bones!!!


(I want to go into radiology :P)

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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I thought they were cool too. The doctor looked at them and said, "How many times have you broken your right wrist?"

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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I seem to get much more carpal tunnel when out of the aero position simply because so much more weight is applied to the palms. I think x-rays of standard road bar positioning would have been more interesting because of this weight factor. At least in the aero position you can shift some of the weight to the pads, an option you don't have in other positions.
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [FishyJoe] [ In reply to ]
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Agreed. Given the rads I've soaked up already I might send another rat over to the good doctor's office next time though.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe x-ray isn't the best tool for this application. I'm thinking that a glove with pressure sensors would be more revealing. Something like what they use for shoes that will display a color map of the pressure areas.
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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Chip, Tom, et al. I may not know much about triathlon, but as a radiologist I do know something about x-rays. Enough that I never whould have allowed Tom to have his hand exposed 20 or more times. The x-rays Tom had taken show and prove absolutely nothing other than the appearance of the wrist in adduction, which is part of the normal range of motion for the wrist. If Tom has any medical basis for his thesis on S-bends putting the wrist in an unnatural position, I would think his interest should be in strain on various tendons and ligaments. And you can't even see these individual soft tissue structures on plain x-rays. Chip would likewise get no usable information from taking plain x-rays in these positions.

Tom, I know you mean well, but your use of ionizing radiation to help give some believability and credibility to your biased views on aerobars was irresponsible. And now you're encouraging others along the same path.

Rant over.


Coach at KonaCoach Multisport
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [FishyJoe] [ In reply to ]
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bottom line:

Have wind tunnel tests show S-bars to be faster than Vision ski ends?

I thought they did and was JUST about to order some tonight. If not I will stick with the Vision ski ends they feel fine to me.
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Terra-Man] [ In reply to ]
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Point taken. Thank you. I was kinda thinking that maybe I would find a cause to my ulnar issues and potentially prevent others from having it as well.

----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Terra-Man] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you.
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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I would also be interested in having others avoid what you've experienced. And it's not unreasonable to wonder if such a position might contribute to some effect on the ulnar artery. It's just not something you can tell on a 2 dimensional x-ray.


Coach at KonaCoach Multisport
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Terra-Man] [ In reply to ]
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Say I had access to an MRI? (I do)

----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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those pics are still interesting, as you pointed out in your article, I often ride with just my little fingers hooked under the s-bend bars in order to keep my wrist straight, not the best for control but a whole lot more comfy.



I reject your reality and substitute my own!
Adam Savage
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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This is certainly an interesting post, and the varied opinions are typical of slowtwitch. I used the original Scott DH bars, then moved to Profile bars in my tri career. Quit for many years (>10), then came back when Syntace was the thing. I never liked them as well as the Profiles. Last year, I switched to Vision Tech normal bend and liked them better, but there was still something wrong. I've now cut down the upward length of the extension by about 1 cm and they are comfortable so I'm happy again.

My younger son used to use my old Profile clip-ons for road and track. Last year, he got a P3SL and installed VT R bends. He also put them on his track bike. I thought they would be extremely uncomfortable but have tried them for a few minutes. Although I couldn't image doing a long race on them, they seemed like they would be OK for a short distance. I would probably rotate my wrist so that I was holding the bar from the top most of the time (not resting per Tom's piece, but holding). This does represent a second position, something that's hard to get with ski bends.

On the other hand, my son loves them. He's a road and track rider so is not doing anything longer than an hour. He has a lot of power and wants to be able to pull up on the bars, which the R bends help. They obviously worked for him. He repeated as national junior champion in kilo and pursuit and set new national records in both events. He also moved up from 12th to 1st in the national road TT championship, beating four guys who had finished ahead of him the previous year, including the previous year's winner.

Yes, we're also both tall at 6'2", if that is one of the things that makes R bends work.

I think it's a bit like the whole high/low position. You're better off with something comfortable. I also was interested in the biketechreview piece since I also wonder whether the S and R bends are any better aerodynamically. Floyd's position is more like what wind tunnel studies of the ealry 90s suggested was the best position since you form a more continuous shape with the high extensions he used.
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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I agree w/Paulo.

It's funny how you're willing to take "concrete proof" like these x-rays, Tom...but then willing disregard mountains of concrete data from powermeter users on their efficacy.
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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PM'ed you.


Coach at KonaCoach Multisport
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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I'm no radiologist, but something tells me that unnecessarly x-raying a pair of arms is pretty stupid.

Other than that, good article.
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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not sure if linked already:

http://biketechreview.com/performance/ruleofthumb.htm

Want: 58cm Cervelo Soloist. PM me if you have one to sell

Vintage Cervelo: A Resource
Last edited by: jeremyb: Feb 26, 07 22:24
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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To each his own, just like saddle tilt or other adjustable settings on your bike.
I like s-bends after years of using regular aerobars. It wasn't a natural feeling in the beginning but my wrists have adjusted.
With the standard aerobar, my grab & arm position is fixed because the upturn stops you.
With s-bends I find that I have more room sliding my grab up & down the horizontal portion of the s-bend.I move my grab forward & back in relation to where I sit on the saddle due to terrain.
On long fast flats, I find myself on the saddle nose and as far forward on the s-bends. On slight climbs in the aero position, I am grabbing just around the bend for added pull.
Just a bit harder to shift the bar ends specially when its pointing all the way down.Don't know if its the same with others.
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [TriBriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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I have not advocated disregarding the data from any measuring device. I have argued for an ecclectic and complete examination of a topic that included more than one investigational tool or data point.

In the case of power meters my statements are to the effect that they not be used as an exclusive diagnostic tool for fitness and bike fit evaluation. No one tool can diagnose optimal bike fit. I hear a general consensus in some circles that testing position with a power meter is "the last word" in positioning. It is not. It is a significant part of the picture, but only a part of the picture. A review of my written comments will verify this.

In the matter of aerobars I would argue the X-rays say only a little about aerobar use except to illustrate the skeletal orientation in several positions. My opinion is the skeletal orientation while gripping an "S" bend aerobar extension is more stressful than gripping a ski bend. However, I did not develop that hypothesis using an X-ray. I developed it anecdotally while using the products onthe trainer, on the road and in races. My ideas and opinions surrounding "S" bends are not scientifically proven in my article, but they do include the X-rays, well over a year of personal experience with the equipment and a broad survey of aerobars available and with feedback from a large number of persons using them.



Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
Last edited by: Tom Demerly: Feb 27, 07 5:21
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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I agree completely with you, Tom. Any good exercise oriented practitioner would always tell you to keep your wrist in a neutral position; be it weightlifting, or any similar stressing position. Just makes sense to not crank wrists down long term....

Gary Geiger
http://www.geigerphoto.com Professional photographer

TEAM KiWAMi NORTH AMERICA http://www.kiwamitri.com, Rudy Project http://www.rudyprojectusa.com, GU https://guenergy.com/shop/ ; Salming World Ambassador; https://www.shopsalming.com
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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You are probably aware of the UCI rune stipulating a 75 cm max. horizontal distance between the tip of the extensions and the BB center. Also you might have noticed a recent trend to ride steep in UCI sanctioned timed events (mostly among CSC and Discovery riders). Of course there's a rule for that too - tip of saddle should be at least 5 cm behind center of BB (with a possible "morphological" exception to be made for smaller riders) Now, if you are going to sail as much up the wind as possible under UCI rules and move your saddle as far forward as allowed (and even trim the nose of the saddle upto the minimum allowable saddle length) then you'll need to move your extensions further out as well and find out that 75 cm is barely enough for a comfortable fit unless you are like 5'6" maybe. An obvious solution is to tilt the extensions either up or down in order to stay within the horizontal limit with up being perhaps better than down. I think, there's another UCI rule that requires the tip of the extensions to be no higher than the top of the saddle, and this is why they made Floyd lower his extensions before the first TT at the 2006 Tour.


In short, to me, this is an attemt to squeeze out more power by riding steep and hope (or maybe know) that this is going to offset the aerodynamic determent of pointing the extensions up.


Nick.
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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"I hear a general consensus in some circles that testing position with a power meter is "the last word" in positioning. "

The one, single, solitary person I hear making this statement is you, Tom.


"In the matter of aerobars I would argue the X-rays say only a little about aerobar use except to illustrate the skeletal orientation in several positions."

While I admire the committment it takes to subject oneself to radiation in an attempt to produce cool looking pictures that are essentially meaningless, I can't help but find myself astonished that a) the results of these X-rays wouldn't have been obvious well in advance to anyone who had ever bothered to open an anatomy textbook, b) a radiologist would go along with this stunt, and c) these same results would be percieved as probative or worthwhile.


"My ideas and opinions surrounding "S" bends are not scientifically proven in my article.."

Yup.

"...but they do include the X-rays..."

Which, as in your crank test, prove nothing useful at all, but look pretty darn cool, and do a great job of convincing some folks of, well, something...


"I have not advocated disregarding the data from any measuring device. I have argued for an ecclectic and complete examination of a topic that included more than one investigational tool or data point."

I'm with TBG and several others on this. You have an established track record of disputing convincing statistical and scientific data that is contradictory to your personal biases and preference, while simultaneously you attempt to present glossy pseudo-science and rhetorical gimmickry as valid, meaningful, and useful.

I guess this is good for business.


.


.

Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [fredly] [ In reply to ]
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No, sorry. Not really. I disagree.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
Last edited by: Tom Demerly: Feb 27, 07 11:58
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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"No, sorry. Not really. I disagree. "

With what? It's bad for business?


.

Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [fredly] [ In reply to ]
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Fredly,

Use this as your LR sig line if you like:

"Fredly's comments are 100% right on the money!"

And your conclusion is too, this is all good for business and that is why Tom D keeps doing it... over, and over, and OVER again.
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [renegade027] [ In reply to ]
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I look forward to the dy when some sort of reason prevades the UCI rulings. It has long since struck me that the 5cm rule alone is somewhat arbitrary. Why not 2cm? Or for that matter, why not 0cm?

The "rules for a competitive bicycle" are, as I understand it, an attempt to level the playing field, limit experimentation with positions such as Boardman and Obree and prevent general morphing of the bike toward a fully faired recumbent. The current specificatons go way beyond that initiative. As a result, they are handing out morphological exemptions like Powerbars from the team car.

Hey, what are the requirements for a morphological exemption anyway?

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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Wow. I have a lot of respect for your posts, as well as fredly's too, but I think you are both off-base here. I have been in Tom's store a number of times with the purpose of changing to "S" bends or straight aero bars, mainly because I thought it looked cool and might facilitate a better transfer of power; every time he has talked me out of it. This is not consistent with the motives your ascribe to him.

This is only one example of a situation where he could have acceded to my request and then charged me later to change it.

I am a relatively new triathlete, but Tom has more than once saved me from making a poor decision that would cost me in the long run.
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Trianthes] [ In reply to ]
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Let's just say that people like me or fredly are not his target market. But by the looks of it, you certainly are ;-) <-genuine smiley, not canadian.
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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;-) <-genuine smiley, not canadian.

There's a Canadian smiley? I did not know this.




Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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It's a passive-aggressive smiley. I was told that passive-aggressiveness is a trait of the typical canadian personality. The data points that I have certainly point towards that conclusion ;-) <- genuine, again
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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You'll just have to wonder. Does this mean you won't serve as my coach?
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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[reply][b];-) <-genuine smiley, not canadian. [/b]
[b][/b]
There's a Canadian smiley? I did not know this.
[b]
[/b][/reply]\

yes, it is MUCH better looking than the normal smiley. And quite a bit skinnier than the one their brothers and sisters to the south use. ;)
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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Clearly, you need to x-ray some Canadians to support your conclusion.
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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Easy on the Canadians. Do you have enough knowledge of enough Canadians for a credible sample size... ;-]

(I'm not really sure what nation the above smiley represents)
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why [ In reply to ]
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i was trying to get the picture of the lead group in hawaii....heres most of the guy .....all of them with a s bend or straight extension and broke wrist.... i dont think they had the chance to see the x ray before making there choice for hawaii..... anyway, i do love s bend and straight extension...probably the most comfy set up i ever had and also as some other positive property...... these are the teacher of our sport.. !!! now...please...lets not think posiitoning is like sending someone on the moon....it s not very complicated...experiment and you will find out....look around and the top guys and girls as often they have good insight..... and enjoy riding that freaking bike!!!!!! go ride on a nice quiet road with a set of allen keys and make changes on feeling until everything feels right.... when you reach your normann stadler position.....keep that position and ride lots to get really fast.!!!!

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
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Last edited by: jonnyo: Feb 27, 07 12:46
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Trianthes] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
You'll just have to wonder. Does this mean you won't serve as my coach?

Only if you use the faulty logic that you exhibited in that first post ;-)

What fredly meant is that it's pretty clear that Tom D's motives are not to sell these or those aerobars, but to spin himself as an expert. By creating attention upon him and his business, he gets more clients. It's a good marketing strategy, that he's been using for several years now. I am pretty sure that the volume of his sales that he does online is a lot higher than some shops that have an actual online shop.
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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I always thought that a genuine Canadian smiley would come with a Tuque. <:-)

Now that's Canadian!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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I got ya . . . but aren't you the pot calling the kettle black? And FWIW, I have yet to find a reason for Tom to not to be my expert.

Also, you should be careful about throwing around the "Canadian" term; South Park devotees (I am not one of them) ascribe a different meaning to the term.
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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Fair up mate, and good man for calling Demerly out. Here's the rub though- i just hit your name to take a look at your expert advice. There is none. Matter of fact mate, I read through the first few pages of your posts and didn't see a single contribution to this forum other than smart-ass wise cracks, back-handed comments, insults and name calling or joke making. Usually at some other blokes expense whose just trying to make good.
You talk a lot of shit mate, but you don't say much. Same with you mate fredly- looked him up as well. least he has something to once in a while. you just make wise cracks. The only thing from your posts is something valuable. Got anything to say on the forum othe than bollocks about somebody else? near as i see three pages of your crap at least you don't.
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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I certainly appears to be a trend; this year it will probably be the Landis-type position. Whatever works, right?

One trend that I am happy did not catch on is Farris' man-bra.
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [campagfan] [ In reply to ]
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You talk funny. And no, I don't wish to mate with you.
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why [Trianthes] [ In reply to ]
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nop...not a trend...... and most of these guys have been in this position for many many years.... and faris as s bend also...look closer.... i do have close up of his bar but can t find the pictures.....he is using them because they are comfy and have other good side (aero)

it s definitly not a trend........

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [campagfan] [ In reply to ]
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Nonsense, I've seen paulo agree with someone at least twice

Forget speedwork. Speedwork is the icing on the cake and you don't have a cake yet. - MattinSF

Basically they have 9 tenants, live life to the fullest, do not turn the cheak, and embrace the 7 deadly since. - TheForge (on satanists)
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why [Trianthes] [ In reply to ]
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i guess there aerobars are hard to describe but definitly a broke wrist......not sure it s very aero in his case but he says he really like them.....

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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Dude, I am talking about his top . . . his man-bra. Get it?
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why [Trianthes] [ In reply to ]
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hummm.....yeah.....ok.....me stupid.......hummmm......me not ready carefully.......hummm......got it now!!!!!

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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If I recall correctly the cockpit Al-Sultan used at Hawaii in 2005 did have traditional ski bends. I am quite certain of it as a matter of fact.

He was out split on the bike by Torbjorn Sindballe, who did use a straighter, "S" bend extension from Oval (custom made to his dimensions however).

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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not sure what the ski bend is but yes....his wrist as a slight bend...not much still not a neutral anatomic position.

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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Faris also rode slower on more watts than Torbjorn. And Sindballe is quite bigger than Faris too.
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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He looked almost as good in 2005 as Normann did in 2006.

Here is the best picture I have found:

http://www.xentis.com/...eg_2005_IMG_9049.JPG

Looks to me like he doesn't mind the downward-cocked wrist angle, but I honestly don't understand how someone could hold that kind of a position for 4+ hours even on smooth roads.

When I ride my Profile T2+ S-bends (tt machine rather than tri), I almost always rotate my wrist so that my hand is is resting palm-down on the bend with the least frontal area that I can manage and still feel like I have a decent grip on the bars. I also tip mine up several degrees steeper than "level" from the bar's perspective to make my forearms level.

Chris
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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Let's face the facts here. You use 's-bends' because the top pro triathletes use them. And they use them for the same reason, because in '04 Lance started using them. He started the trend in triathlon, and even he was following someone else who was getting a little too close for comfort before the change:



We don't do things because they're faster, or because we like them better. This is triathlon, we do things either because others did it and we hope it made them faster...because Lance did it, or Team CSC did it.....OR because it looks cool ;^)
Last edited by: eganski: Feb 27, 07 14:04
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why [eganski] [ In reply to ]
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sorry....not sure how you know why i ride s bend...... i started riding them in 2002 with a mountain bike handelbar that i cut in 2 peice and used that as my extension on a very old project X profile design bar....... it was just more comfy for me......that why i went that way....

a lot of people find them super comfy and like them....some find them cool some dont like them..... it s very individual but they have been around way before 2004.....

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [renegade027] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
An obvious solution is to tilt the extensions either up or down in order to stay within the horizontal limit with up being perhaps better than down.


Interesting point. One aero issue I have always wondered about re: extensions is whether or not you want to "close" the opening between head and hands. With straight, horizontal bars one presents a "C" or "cup" that catches/directs wind into the torso. Reading bewteen the lines on some discussions, it would seem that the best path is to direct the airflow is either over the top of your shoulders, or under your arms below your torso and around your legs, not into your torso. Angling the bars up slightly would seem to present a more aerodynamic bullet to the wind, vs. the "C".

Any thoughts on this.
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [reggiedog] [ In reply to ]
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check this out:

http://biketechreview.com/...ance/ruleofthumb.htm


The Straight Aero Bar Extension Trend
Jan Ullrich, or was it Jens Voigt, has made the straight aero bar extension the latest fad/trend in the TT product world. The internet is full of people describing just how they took a hacksaw to their $400 one-piece bars (like the Easton Attack, CSC Vision Tech, Profile Carbons, etc...) so that they could adopt the Ullrich/Voigt hand position. I mean heck, those guys are winning with those style of bar extensions, so it MUST be fast, right?
Applying the tenuous “constant Cd” assumption discussed previously, I set out to see how these straight aero bars, or more precisely, the resultant hand position required to grab onto that style of bar affected measured frontal area. The reasoning goes that if the frontal area was smaller with a particular hand position, well, that would be the aero bar extension that everyone’s just “gotta” have…
The experiment consisted of sitting myself in a chair while wearing lots of black (so that my hands would be easy to extract from the digital picture) and rotating my hands downward in ~ 10 degree increments.

Figure 1. Wide angle shot of the hand position frontal area sweep setup.


After processing these images to determine frontal area, I was able to create the following table:

Figure 2. Straight aero bar extensions put your hands in a position somewhere between #3 and #4 above.

I would estimate that the hand position necessary to grab onto the straight style of aero bar extension is somewhere between that illustrated by position #3 and #4 above. Interestingly, the frontal area measurements show these two positions to have the highest frontal area by up to 20% as the chart below also illustrates:


Figure 3. Hand position and frontal area.



It should be noted that the minimum frontal area was measured with hand position #2. Upon closer inspection, the minimum frontal area hand position can best be described by looking at the relationship between the thumb and the forearm.
Position #2 is obtained when the thumb is parallel to the forearm and the forearm is also held parallel to the ground. An easier way to visualize this relationship is if one places a ruler on top of the forearm. Ideally, when the minimum frontal area hand position is achieved, the ruler should touch the forearm and thumb along its entire length as seen below:

Figure 4. The rule of the thumb - keep it inline with the forearm for smallest frontal area.


Hand positions #3 and #4 significantly deviate from the line projected off the forearm as is illustrated in figure 5.

Figure 5. This hand position results in a larger frontal area.



My “Rule of the thumb” should be clear by now; I think that for best aerodynamics people should keep that thumb and forearm in contact with a “virtual” ruler that extends out from the forearm. The resulting hand position based on the “rule of the thumb” setup has been shown to present a slightly smaller frontal area and perhaps, ultimately, faster TT times. In summary, the thumb metatarsal should be kept as flat as possible, and honestly, that’s quite tough to do when one lops off the upturns on their appropriately shaped conventional aero bars and opts to go the straight bar extension route.
And to think that someone had the audacity to claim I had too much time on my hands…

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [reggiedog] [ In reply to ]
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So would the praying-Landis position.
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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I have read this biketechreview.com post. He only measured the frontal area of the hand. What happens to the forearms, shoulders and head when the hand position is changed?

And what can be said of tilting the arms up or down. If, as some suggest, we're better off with the bars tilted up, then we're exposing more of our arms to the wind and slowing ourselves down. If we only rely on this method of analysis.

Clearly, we have to look at the effects of adopting different hand positions on the entire position. Just like we can't put an aero helmet in a tunnel and determine its benefit to a particular rider we can't put just our hands in there either. For a lot of reasons, actually.
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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...but to spin himself as an expert. By creating attention upon him and his business, he gets more clients.

Hello pot...

~Matt

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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [MJuric] [ In reply to ]
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Here's a portuguese saying for you:

"You can't catch flies with vinegar"
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [cdanrun] [ In reply to ]
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You're right. There are a large number of factors when considering the possible resultant differences in performance affected by using one aerobar bend as opposed to another.

I would summarize some of those factors as:
  • Aerodynamic drag. Does an "S" bend result in an overall lower drag coefficient and smoother boundry layer with smaller vortices? How will an "S" bend be affected as wind yaw angle/vecored wind speed change throughout the riding envelope. This is tough to test for since few wind tunnels have the capability to induce yaw angles beyond 15 degrees. Nonetheless, some wind tunnel data may provide insight. Drag may be an intersting factor here provided it is a realistic depiction of drag in a cycling environment.
  • Power output. Simple. Have a rider do some testing using an SRM or Powertap in the real world on several different types of terrain. Download and interpret the data. Tough to hold other factors relatively constant, but a decent comparison nonetheless. I have a hypothesis on this one: "S" bends will result in higher power numbers per heart rate at lower cadences on an indoor trainer only. In the real world I hypothesize that they will not produce better power numbers than ski bends. Additionally, I hypothesize that power numbers will drop off as the duration of the test becomes greater with "S" bends, but will remain more constant with ski bends.
  • Muscular involvement. I mean, I am guessing here because I'm operating way above my pay grade on this subject matter- but hear me out. Isn't there an electronic device applied to the skin that uses transdermal sensors to measure muscle activity/involvement? OK. Put those things on a guy. Make him ride with both bends in seperate tests. Measure the muscular involvement with "S" bends and with ski bends. Plot this involvement against speed, power output and heart rate. This is a test that needs to be performed on a stationary trainer to limit the environmental variables. What is the result? Does the athlete involve more muscles at a higher physiological cost with one handlebar configuration over the other?

Now, those are just three factors that I could brain storm some investigative protocols for. One I just pulled out of my ass (last one). But here's the thing: After all this time and all this testing there is still the rather subjective, untestable factor of comfort. If the rider isn't comfortable, it likely will affect the outcome in ways difficult for us to understand and perhaps impossible to test for.

It's been said in this thread before, and I agree with this: The different bends do work for different people. I know Empfield has called "bullshit" on that canned answer to every equipment debate, but I think it does apply to a degree here.

Now, I will assert that "S" bends are not better for most people. They are not. I think ski bend aerobars are better for most people. By better I mean more comfortable, safer, even faster because of the previous two reasons.

I think a significant part of the reason some people ride "S" bends is attributable to their popularity in the Tour de France and among the pros at Ironman. In this very thread one poster went to the trouble to assemble a montage of photos of the top riders from Ironman and every one of them was using "S" bends. It is pretty natural to assume that he is not the only one to conduct this survey. Based on that, it is pretty easy to understand why someone may opt for "S" bends, after all, the best pros at Ironman all use them.

I tried "S" bends. Many different types/brands/models. I'll probably try a few more kinds because I do think they look cool and I'm always up for trying something new new especially if there is a chance I can sell some and/or it can benefit my performance. As it is though, I don't think "S" bends are as good as ski bends. I think their popularity is mostly fashion, not so much function.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why [eganski] [ In reply to ]
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That's a cool poster and Jan's position is really weird. Heck, no wonder the fella fell off his bike in that roundabout...

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]Here's a portuguese saying for you:
"You can't catch flies with vinegar"[/reply]

ahhhhhhhhhh now I understand you are portuguese.
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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FINALLY, someone else has figured this out!

I have some Profile Carbon Stryke bars with a "ski" bend. I LOVE them because they are so comfortable and make so much sense. They are the old non-internal cable routing version.

From a "power" perspective as noted in your article Tom, I don't believe you are actually correct in stating that the benefits of S bends are suited to TdF riders etc.
I don't see how they get any advantage. Sure they (riders) put out more power, and they ride shorter distances (so comfort is less of an issue) but I don't think the S bend actually has any benefit or advantage in this regard.

From an aero perspective, just looking at the hands, I'd suggest that as far as I can tell, with a normal slant to the human hand (hand is longer from the wrist to the index finger than wrist to pinky finger) that the ski bend is ideal since it allows the wrist to stay in a neutral position. The ski bend should be such that the top of the hand is horizontal and the angled knuckles (when viewed from the side) present an angled surface to the air, directing the air under the forearms (primarily) and under the aerobars.

On S bends, the wrist is in an extended postion, causing stress and discomfort with no apparent benefit. With the extended wrist position, the air goes up and over the forearms, probably equal to the air going under the arms in the example above, but, the fingers under the nearly flat aerobars will cause tubulence under the bars for a net increase in drag.

As for stability, both types of bars can be used to stabilize the body, and both types take hand and forearm muscle contraction to do so. The extended wrist action imposed by a S bend bar has no advantage in this regard IMHO.

I DO think many ski bend bars are too long however, accommodating the clenced hand, plus some amount sticking up essentially vertically into the airstream. To add to this, the shifters stick further in to the wind for increased drag. This un-necessary ski bend length also means the rider must move the hand up the bar to shift each time. I have cut down the amount of length on my ski bends so that with my shifters in place, the base part of the shifter is actually inside my clenched hand, with only the little lever part of the shifter exposed. This has some small aero benefit (offset by my aero drag my belly causes, but what the hell, but mainly assists with not having to move my hand for shifting. I also saved .00037g of carbon fibre aerobar weight as well, for much improved hill climbing ;-)

Cutting down my aero bars was a bit of a mission actually. The hole of the end of the ski bend is designed to fit a bar end shifter perfectly. When I cut down the ski bend, the aluminum form/support for the carbon bar got thicker, narrowing the hole for the shifter to be inserted. Bugger. My solution was to carefully grind down the outside of the expanding bolt of the shifter so it would fit in the smaller hole. There's tons on material aluminum there and minimal load on the shifter so there's no problem, but it was an unanticipated hassle to do one sunday afternoon.

For me comfort is the prime benefit for ski bends, but I believe the aero benefits (although minimal) are there too, all with no power loss. Don't be a slave to fashion and marketting, go with the best alternative, the ski bend, cut down to suit your hand size.

TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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There must be some progress-stopping reason behind the 5 cm rule, I am sure. I remember I read a UCI commissary manual once and it said if the rider is below a certain height (174 cm??? not sure) or has a shorter inseam than something, then a morphological exemption may be granted. Also a rider could get one for health reasons and this is where it becomes like the WADA exception for asthma medication. Pretty much everyone may claim they have a bad back or something...

If the whole thing is to prevent richer teams from obtaining an advantage by using superior equipment - no luck. Some teams still have superior equipment within the UCI rules framework - especially obvious in timed events. I don't want to mention brands so as not to completely hijack the thread but if two riders finish a 57 km TT within, say, 28 sec of each other, it makes one think what if different wheels, bike, helmet, etc were used. And of course: "What if the riders were free to do some educated tinkering with their positons?" is an even more obvious question.

Another thing is that richer teams can still afford the better riders, which is crucial in winning races more often than not. Yet there's no attempt to level the playing field there. In fact the more financially secure a team is the easier it is to obtain a Pro Tour license. Why not device some rule to prevent Discovery (or T-Mobile or Astana or CSC for this matter) from having a budget several times larger than Bouygues Telecom? Perhaps some folk at the UCI think athletes should only concentrate on pushing the pedals harder and leave the thinking to the governing body....
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [reggiedog] [ In reply to ]
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Everything I come across - scientific, semi-scientific, theoretical, computer generated, wind tunnel-tested, on-the-road-with-an-SRM-tested, anecdotal, etc., points to forearms being parallel to the ground as the most aerodynamic thing to do. Few sources, however, care to mention how much more aero than forearms up or down. Kris Boardman was cited by British Eurosport I, to have said that they tested with the British National Team and 'forearms up' was slower by 'forearms parallel to the ground' but not by a lot.

There are some wind tunnel veterans lurking on this forum, for fun I guess, who seem to confirm this. Landis was quoted in an article to have said that the staff at the San Diego wind tunnel have suggested "an even faster" position but his hip would hurt more in it and he needed to ride steeper ST (and still be within UCI limits) A very old German wind tunnel study (with someme obvious methodology and measuring equipment sensitivity issues) suggests that 'forearms up' affects overall drag negatively by a magnitude of about 3% at 0 degrees yaw. But it does not say how many degrees from horizontal 'forearms up' is....

I guess it would be important to control for the exact placement of elbows in all three dimensions in order to figure this one out. It is possible that one's whole upper body may move down a bit by tilting the extensions up. As a result a lower drag reading may be obtained but that may be the effect of lowering one's torso rather than the placement of forearms. I don't think a self-financed 1 hr session in a wind tunnel will be enough to get a definitive answer;)
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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 but they have been around way before 2004.....

The first photos I remember seeing of a rider with straight extensions were of Chris Boardman riding a Hotta, I believe. So that would have been somewhere between 1996 and 1999.

edit - not a great picture, but it looks like those extensions are straight to me. That's from 1997



Swimming Workout of the Day:

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Last edited by: More is MORE: Feb 27, 07 17:36
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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I like that you put the shots together...but it appears there's a large disconnect on how people get fit and how people ride with them.

All of these look comfy....





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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Diesel] [ In reply to ]
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Look at the differences in the angle of the wrist between the first photo of Armstrong and the second. It seems like there is a pretty hefty difference there. It may just be how he is holding the bars when the photo was ahot, but nonetheless, interesting (at least to me...).

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Totally out of my league here, but as a former competitive tennis player, I can see that the "V" created by Lance's thumb and forefinger is at the 3:00 O'clock position in the first picture and at the 12:00 O'Clock position in the second picture.

When I get home tonight I'll try both hand positions and see if it makes a difference in comfort, control, etc.

BTW, the tennis reference is due to the fact that grips for the various strokes are found in relation to where the "V" is on the racket grip "clock".
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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In the first picture he's holding more proximally on the bar in the region of the bend. His shoulders and back are significantly higher than in the second one in which he shows a more crouched position and is holding the bars more distally on the flat section. Which is one of the advantages some posters have commented on, i.e. fore and aft position variation.


Coach at KonaCoach Multisport
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Geezus Tom...


"Does an "S" bend result in an overall lower drag coefficient and smoother boundry layer with smaller vortices? "

- would you honestly be able to respond to any kind of factual answer to this question, and could you actually explain how boundary layer effects relate to the question of arm/hand position as a component of rider aerodynamics?


"How will an "S" bend be affected as wind yaw angle/vecored wind speed change throughout the riding envelope. This is tough to test for since few wind tunnels have the capability to induce yaw angles beyond 15 degrees."

- Please tell us how often riders will typically encounter these yaw angles; also, please explain the test data commonly available showing drag numbers on bicycle products at these higher angles. Please differentiate between "can't test for" and "don't bother to test for."


"I have a hypothesis on this one: "S" bends will result in higher power numbers per heart rate at lower cadences..."

- What, exactly, is this particular metric expected to be indicative of?

" ...on an indoor trainer only. In the real world I hypothesize that they will not produce better power numbers than ski bends. Additionally, I hypothesize that power numbers will drop off as the duration of the test becomes greater with "S" bends, but will remain more constant with ski bends. "


- Huh? What a load of utter nonsense. There are, what, 20 pictures of riders with "s-bends" on this thread? How many of them are riding in the same position? Which one of those positions are you talking about? What exactly is the magic, intrinsic quality of S-bend bars that sucks wattage out of rider's legs? How is it that despite the wide variation in application and positional variation in application of the S-bend type bar, one can logically expect to see any normative difference in wattage outputs across a population? What does any of this have to do with heart rate? What, exactly, on god's green earth are you talking about?


"Now, those are just three factors that I could brain storm some investigative protocols for. One I just pulled out of my ass..."


You're pulling all of this "out of your ass."

Why can't you just leave it at:

"Now, I will assert that "S" bends are not better for most people. They are not. I think ski bend aerobars are better for most people. By better I mean more comfortable, safer, even faster because of the previous two reasons. "

I can even agree with this.

It's all the ridiculous hocus-pocus, quackery, and totally "pulled out of my ass" tom-foolery I can't stand. It's getting really old...



.

Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think he usually rides with that many spacers. He is a local pro and I think that may have been his setup for the worlds toughest half.
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [fredly] [ In reply to ]
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My sincere apologies if I missed this, but is it possible Tom just meant that it's not a great position for your anatomy? Faster or not? I can promise your wrists don't like being like that, but whether it will ever make a difference is another question. I guess the ex-Kona lead-packers turned CPAs will tell us when they are 60 years old. ;)
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [couchtater] [ In reply to ]
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"My sincere apologies if I missed this, but is it possible Tom just meant that it's not a great position for your anatomy? Faster or not? "


That would be a reasonable statement, and, as such, is most definitely not what he wrote.




.

Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:

  • Aerodynamic drag. Does an "S" bend result in an overall lower drag coefficient and smoother boundry layer with smaller vortices? How will an "S" bend be affected as wind yaw angle/vecored wind speed change throughout the riding envelope. This is tough to test for since few wind tunnels have the capability to induce yaw angles beyond 15 degrees. Nonetheless, some wind tunnel data may provide insight. Drag may be an intersting factor here provided it is a realistic depiction of drag in a cycling environment.
You clearly don't know what you're talking about. It's embarrassing to read the above paragraph.
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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"You clearly don't know what you're talking about. It's embarrassing to read the above paragraph.

-
Paulo Sousa "



... which is what I should have written, rather than the poor attempt at politik I made in my response to the same post.


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Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [fredly] [ In reply to ]
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The idea behind S/R-bend aerobars are improved aerodynamics and improved power transfer, no comfort. The idea is that you can pull up more on an S-bend and generate some more leverage and thus can get more power into the pedals. Looking at what's been done in the wind-tunnels, I'd be inclined to agree with both of these points. Comfort's a personal issue. Tour de France riders don't make their TT position/gear picks based on comfort, since they're riding relatively short distances and not that often on their TT bikes. Someone aiming towards longer course Tris has to be concerned a bit more about comfort, for the longer ride, and the ability to run off the bike. I ride a ski slop style bar, and find it quite uncomfortable, but I think it's the bars more then the style. I'm planning to try both an R bend and a ski slope bar when i pick up my new aerobars and decide which I like better.


Adam



Adam

Euro-Sports.ca/The Foodery Team member
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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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I just pulled the s bends off......going with Vision j bends..

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Re: I don't like "S" bends and these are the reasons why (link/photos) [spirogeek] [ In reply to ]
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I guess I'm about the only dissenting opinion here but I really like the S bends. I think I know why. I'm tall (6'6") with long arms and big hands so I find it really conforatable to ride in the bends with my forearms turned over so that my hands are pretty much parallel to the ground with my thumbs in. Kind of like how most people would put their hands if they were relaxing them on a desk. I find it really relaxed when I need it to be but easy enough to pull up when I want to. I get away with it I think because my hands are big enough to turn in and still grip the bars and I can easily shift with my index finger. It helps that my arms are long wnough that I can turn my arms over easily between the pads and the end of the bar. I agree that I couldn't ride long in the position in the x-ray, that's for sure. I was just never confortable or relaxed in all the years I spend with ski bend bars. I'll agree that they are not for eveyone but they can work for some, even slack AGers like me.

I would have to agree with you , I absolutely love them.
I have Vision- Tech R-Bends. Having previously swapped out my previous "traditional" extensions for the "R-Bends".

I would immediately support the argument that "they are definitely not for everyone".
Additionally I would even go as far to say that if I was to adjust my , fore/aft position , or have had them on my previous bike , I would probably be uncomfortable and resort back to traditional extensions.

Previously , I was holding my "traditional extensions" , at the curve (where they start the incline) and based on that , took the gamble to give the R-Bends a try , pretty much expecting to revert back to the traditional extensions.

Well , nine months later I am still in the same position....and very comfortable.

I am an average AG'er as well.

"You are never too old to set another goal or to dream a new dream" - Les Brown
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