Why do some many get on their high horse? My guess, is the more one bitches, the better chance this is the type of person who loves to break lots of rules.

I do not see why anyone would call this "cheating". As a person who has played sports my entire life with officials, one has to adjust to what is being called on that day.
Best example I can think of is when I played basketball. We all know there is a 3 second rule for not being in the paint. Well, there were times where the officials, for what ever
reason, would not call the rule. So, was I cheating to stay in the paint for more than 3 seconds to try and help my team win? I was out there to win with my team, I was not out
there trying to make some type of statement to the fans or anyone else.

Bottom line, this as well as ANY other sport is just a game. It will not make you live longer. It will not reduce your taxes. It is what it is. If at the end of the day the product that an RD is offering does not get enough customers to pay the bills, they go out of business. Otherwise, it is just a small group of folks who love to bitch. Every company has to deal with this. It is just part of the "business".

Right now with my back hurt, I would love to be able to race and draft. I really do not care what others think, since just look what so many did to Tom on ST. Kick folks when they are down.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Wait until next week when everyone is doing the 70.3 in Clearwater. It is comments like I had no choice but to draft or ruin my race that makes drafting on flat courses more of a problem. Play fair and let the chips fall where they may. Sure there are times when drafting is unavoidable but not for 112 miles. I live near Clearwater and pass on the race due to the blatant drafting. I agree go to Clermont that course keeps you honest and you earn your race time good or bad.

We'll be in clearwater on a tandem (guiding blind guy!) Normally I don't bother hassling drafters, but if someone is hanging off us there I will let them know! Tandems are tough to handle, and I have fast blind guy on the back. You will hear from me! Our safety is paramount over some guy getting a free ride.

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NCCP certified Comp coach

Or you could volunteer. Then the race could have more than 10 marshalls to cover 112 miles.

Psychosyd,
I agree with you on that. You will have more than enough responsibility on that bike without having to worry about idiots letting you pull them into the wind. We will keep an eye out for you during the day. I have done triathlons since 1983 and the blatant drafting especially since we now live in Florida just upsets me. We watched Florida yesterday and there were bike race style pelotons and various intervals through out the day. It also is not a good excuse that there too many people on the course . It still is a responsible to ride within rules.

Cheating is cheating. If you cant comprehend that, fair enough. Cheating isnt just cheating when you get caught. It's called a rule. You follow the rule or you don't. It's that simple! Sometimes you get caught and other times you dont get caught. But cheating is cheating whether you get caught or not caught.

Next your going to tell me it's ok to cheat on your taxes, as long as you don't get caught.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

You always have to balance the penalty vs possible advantage. This is what life is all about. There are lots of gray areas in taxes. Different lawyers will read the rules different ways.
So yep, if I see something gray in my taxes, and if I made a mistake I would pay the taxes and a penalty, yep, why not do it.

So for me, to have anyone say "cheating is cheating", well, I just smile. Wish life was that simply. I know that every person has "cheated" in their life, but folks always have a
way to say the rule is just dumb, like head phones, outside assistance, etc.

Oh well, one always can tell when it is late if the year, the drafting cheating threads get posted.

I should just ignore these threads, but it is cold outside and decided why not get beat up by a few holy people today, since it is Sunday. Did you go to church today? :o)

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

They need to let people know there are going to be consequences if they draft. People draft because a 4 minute penalty is within their tolerance. If they
gave out 10 or 20 minutes or even DQ's, I would wager it would stop.

    
Life is simple. People make it complicated when they want to make it complicated. It's all about choices people make. You get to a dead end and you have a choice to go left or right. You go to the movies and you choose what movie you want to see. You go do a race, and you have the choice to cheat or not. No one but yourself will be making that decision. It's not complicated, unless you want to make it complicated. If you want to bring in the possibility of cheating, you can certainly do that. That doesnt make you a evil or bad person. It just means you wanted to cheat in that area/sport/life choice. In that instance, you cheated. If your offended by being called out for cheating in that instance, than dont cheat. It's like the old saying "If you cant handle the heat, get out of the kitchen".


Like I said, it doesnt make anyone a "bad" person, it simply means they had a choice to break a rule and they broke a rule. It happens in life all the time.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

h2ofun is right .... no shortcut will take away from your own satisfaction... do them all... drugs, drafting, push people down in the water start, hell...take a taxi after half way on the marathon *...is all sport right ? you still made it to the finish with a faster time . .. which is what its all about right ?

standing for more than 3 seconds in the paint - why stop there... trip people while the ref isnt watching, get a ladder or ask your taller brother to shoot for you while wearing your number... actuallly..thats another great idea.. why not pay someone else to wear your number on raceday ?


i think Hilary would have been just as satisfied if he took the ski lift up the other side then all that doing all that bothersome climbing

only silly people do the work themselves... and it only makes you too tired to enjoy what you achieved that day anyway


seems to me people are doing ironman for different reasons.... i wouldnt waste my training to do a half effort on the day by letting someone else pedal for me.

i admire the purists in the sport who do it the right way... and the others just detract...whether its course design or poor management or low morals...its just piss poor ... you only fool yourself and spoil a chance to enjoy what the sport is all about

*this actually happened a while ago in the tourde france and also in the new york marathon when someone who looked like the age group champ was caught catching the cab for part of the course and was found out after he didnt show up on any drink station videos

Holy Morality! The stone throwers are out in force today. The window guy should be happy tomorrow.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Always fun to put a piece of glass up on ST and see how many will start throwing rocks at it. Guess some things on ST never change.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Dave, there are times when I am in awe of you.

   
Awesome. Thanks for saying that. There were actually 15 draft marshalls on the course yesterday - compared to the 6 we had last year because at the last moment the video crew came can took half of our motorcycles. We are all experienced marshalls as well as fellow triathletes. I really wish people would stop blaming the marshalls 'not' being out there - people should take responsibility for their own race

There is a direct correlation between how demanding and technical the bike course is and the lack of drafting. Make the bike course hard and technical, and the drafting decreases. Make it easy and flat . . . and . . . well . . you get what you got yesterday. No one should be shocked.



I guess they could create alot of difficult roads, maybe some narly roads with many turns or whatever, just wondering if this course is what it is because it has to be, or WTC just wants it to be that way? Is it kinda like Clearwater, it is just going to be what it is going to be? You think they could actually put in a harder course, or is it just simply WTC doing what it can do put on a race in that area?

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Umm, perhaps because it is against the rules?


Yes.

Just because you didn't get penalized doesn't mean it isn't cheating. If you steal an old woman's purse and don't get caught, it is still illegal and it is still larceny.


You seem to be ignoring what Tom allegedly did to them.

You do not ever drive over the speed limit now do you?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Of course I do, but I recognize that it is illegal. If I am called out about it I am not going to starting making excuses about how "everyone does it."

Can you recognize that your actions are cheating?

Its tough to really enforce it, what if you're that one guy that's keeping his distance and there's a peloton in front you cant pass. A few riders fall of the back, and wham! You're penalized.

Things that make it better:

1) Flying by the first penalty tent yesterday and seeing it fuller than a club in Miami
2) Watching the motorcycle (3 times) do a slow drive by you to start handing out cards at the peloton that just passed you
3) Verbally calling out a dude at Mile 10 that was sitting 6" off another guys wheel for a few minutes
4) Knowing at the end of the day you didn't cheat. It's that simple.

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My tiny little slice of the internets: dcrainmaker.com

So you admit you break a rule, called the speed limit. It is illegal, and if you get caught, you go to court and pay a fine.

So, if you draft, it is illegal. If you get caught, you get a time penalty.

Seems exactly the same to me.

I consider them both "illegal" to the rules, and to use your word, "cheating". They both have either time or costs if you get "caught".
Now for me, I ask why do some either not see this is the same, or try to find ways that they are different?

Oh well, none of this will change the world. They should rename ST to the HST, the Holy Slowtwitchers. :o)

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

The difference, of course, is that one is a competition. A sporting event with a winner and a loser, played for fun. The winner is determined according to the rules. You, however, are trying to win that competition outside of the rules.

Sorry, but I see no difference. And that is the point, rather than admit rules are rules are rules, and either you follow 110% of them in life or you do not,
it is always why one rule is different than another. You will never understand this but what the heck, we should both be lawyers since we see the same
issue totally differently. Neither of us are right by the way! :o)

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

For those who think that drafting is just a matter of whether you get caught and whether the rules are enforced, would you say the same thing about taking a shortcut on the course? Why not just get a friend in a van to drive you part of the way? As long as the chip passes over the right mats, I think it wouldn't be hard to get away with. Is it not stealing if there are no security cameras?

I actually think video enforcement is the way to go. Just like red-light cameras or speeding ticket cameras. They may not be able to monitor the entire video that day, but an after the fact 20 minute penalty may discourage people, and capturing the full sequence on video eliminates the whiners saying that they got stuck and didn't mean to draft. I volunteer to ride with a small bike-mounted camera.

There are drafting complaints about IMFL?

That's a surprise.