I can't bother to read all the replies.... so sorry if this is a repeat but:

1) I raced there in 07. It was rediculous and I won't go back again. I wish more people would put their money where their mouth is.

2) People wrecked???? WTF? This just adds to the idea that triathletes can't bike in a group. Even a lame FL draft pack where people are far enough apart because they are pretending not to draft. So lame.

I would agree if you were talking about a stand alone TT. In triathlons your performance is now based on how others around you act just like basketball/football so if they are cheating it hurts your performance. In golf if another guy kicks their ball it doesn't give you a penalty.

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Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
http://www.RideScoozy.com

Well I have video of some packs take by me while in the race. Front and rear bike mounted video plus 720p hd helmet cam and to top it off my olympia waterproof camera.
I just got home after 8 your drive so will take a day or so to get some online but it will be there quick as possible. I've perused some of the video where the first major pack I saw
was around 35 miles into the bike on 20 into the wind I was suprised I didn't see any packs on 79 this year but you can always count on good ole highway 20 to see some packs which then get split up at the special needs and the turn heading slightly downhill and usually tail cross wind on 281 then takes a while for them to regroup on the out and back into the wind (have some video of that as well).
Will post some of my shorter olympia video tommorrow hopefully then will have to edit the HD , sync the rear and front video into one video.
I video captured the entire louisville race but because of the time trial start and hills never saw any blatant drafting and certainly no packs.

drafting go figure

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Russ
"living the dream - so they tell me"

So, according to your logic, if I speed, I lose the right/ability to be upset about other people's infringements? You realize where that leads logically, right? "Well, he stole a car. But who am I to judge? I speed."

That everyone transgresses a rule at some point or another during their lives does not mean that they forfeit the ability to be upset about other people's transgression of different rules. As much as you might want that to be the case, it simply isn't true. And I can guarantee that you don't live your life that way. So stop trying to argue for it.

So, let me ask you two questions. Are you against cheating? Have you ever sped? I am going to go out on a limb here and say that your answers are "Yes" and "Yes" respectively. And yet somehow you are arguing that these are irreconcilable positions.

The fact of the matter is that cheating and speeding are fundamentally different. Linking them in this argument doesn't make any sense. Both you and H2oFun have clung to this argument that there is no difference between cheating in sports and speeding. But the two are not the same. The entire point of a race is to see who is fastest under a certain set of circumstances. Not following those rules fundamentally undermines the point of the race. Speeding does not undermine the point of driving. It has nothing to do with whether speeding or cheating is better or worse. The two are logically different.

Yes, they are both within the same broad category. They both fall under the umbrella of transgression of the rules. But so do murder and double parking. That is, however, where the similarities stop. That one similarity does not outweigh all the differences. And just as no one would say that double parking and murder are the same thing, neither are cheating during a race and speeding. You are conflating the two because of one similarity, while ignoring the multitude of distinguishing characteristics. Blue and yellow are not the same because they are both colors. One is not a hypocrite for liking one but not the other.

So, to say that I am being hypocritical because I am upset about cheating during a race while admitting that I speed is like saying that I am a hypocrite for liking apples but detesting oranges. They are both fruit, you say. But they are not the same.

Wow, a few folks get it. Nice post.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

You never answered the question posed earlier in the thread. Are you OK with people cutting the course?

I had better ask the boss first. After 27 years of marriage, and since she has the job now, I follow orders. :o)

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Yes, definitely. Everyone who lives in the area should stop what they are doing for 5-10 hours so that they don't interfere with your experience. Didn't they know the roads were closed?

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Because triathlon is a test of individual abilities, and football, basketball are team sports?

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"Go yell at an M&M"

I did the UC Davis race this year and was leading my AG. I looked back and saw a highly ranked guy in my AG right behind me cut the course big time. I was pissed.

There is a difference between the kind of things you are asking, but since you clearly have your mind made up as to what you think is right or wrong, even though it is just
YOUR opinion, why continue to waste my energy. As an Engineer, I was paid to ask all questions about an issue. I try to look at the pro and cons of all angles.
Most folks do not understand how to do this and why it is important.

As a certified USAT race director, and have been an RD of a race, the few that bitched I just ignored. Most of them have never given back to the sport so why waste
time. I have helped at more events that probably any person on ST so I walk my talk trying to help improve things. (I helped at like 20 races this year, how about you?)

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Right and Wrong is ALWAYS an opinion. Legal or illegal isn't.

People who say it was impossible NOT to ride with the packs are flat out WRONG. I think it simple. If a pack comes from behind, its moving faster, so just let it pass. That one minute where you slow down 0.25 mph will not keep you off the podium. If you catch the pack, just pass it. The marshalls were not handing out penalties to people who were TRYING to stay out of the packs. Just know the rules. If you move into the draft zone, don't drop back and pretend you did nothing wrong, make the pass. I only saw one rider given a penalty, and she was not making any effort to ride her own race. People who say they had to ride in a pack are just trying to justify their cheating on Saturday.

Dave,
I really have a hard time understanding your points of view. I'm very anti draft, but I can understand peoples view that look at it like traveling in basketball. What I don't get is last week you were pretty much the lone voice in the wilderness saying a high school kid should've been kicked out of a race for wearing undershorts with the wrong color stitching.

This week you are saying knowingly cheating is no big deal in tris. I honestly don't see how you can reconcile these opinions.

Styrrell

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Styrrell

 "In golf if another guy kicks their ball it doesn't give you a penalty. "

It does if you are playing against them.

See, this is where you are flat wrong, and since you say you are a lawyer, just amazing. Why do so many go to court? Why do they always find a lawyer willing to
take either side of an issue? Legal or illegal most of the time can be very gray, depending on lots of things, but why am I telling you this, you are a lawyer, right?

Was OJ guilty?

As I was swimming, another great example of how so many are two faced is when it comes to drugs. I can look at anyone in the eyes and say I have NEVER taken
an illegal drug in my life. I bet most could not say this, but wait, the illegal drug they took should not be illegal is there is nothing wrong with it.

EVERYONE can justify what ever they do, EVERYONE. (And in history, germany is a good example of what anyone can do in the wrong place at the wrong time so I have learned
to never say never)

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Dave,

Your argument makes logical sense, but that doesn't make it right. Hgrong is right that choosing to break some rules (speeding) doesn't divest you of the right to complain about people breaking other rules (drafting). Everyone who drafts chooses to do it. They weigh the risks of getting caught against tanking their chances to [insert goal here: get a Kona slot, break 11 hours, etc.]

The guy who compared your position to the TdF mentality on doping was spot on. Even if "everyone is doing it" it's still against the rules. If you get caught doing it, you lose the right to complain about others doing it. But, just because I may have 20 speeding tickets doesn't mean I can't complain about cheaters in triathlon if I don't cheat there.

hgrong is right here.

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''The enemy isn't conservatism. The enemy isn't liberalism. The enemy is bulls**t.''

—Lars-Erik Nelson

I just do not define "cheating" as some keep trying to do. There are a set of rules in any sport. If you break one, you get the penalty the sport has decided it will give you.
So, in any sport I have done, I have always had to balance the risk of getting a penalty, vs competing with what that event was doing. It has NOTHING IMO to do with cheating.
It is just sports.

So, when I was a MOP racer, nothing mattered since I really was not racing for anything but me. But, as I got better, things changed. I now go to a race to try and win my AG.
And if this means the folks I am racing against are "cheating", well, sorry, I will play what ever playing field the RD has put in place. If a guy in my AG is in front of me and cuts the course,
would I follow him, maybe. If guys in my AG are drafting would I follow them, maybe. This cheating stuff from some folks is such a joke. All I can think is most of these folks have just
never been that good in sports that it is easy to sit back and throw rocks.

By the definition I could put on cheating, there is NOT a person on this planet that does not cheat at something. But, I have become a little more gray in life as I get older.

I do not think I have said anything different than last week. Rules are rules. If you get caught, you pay the price. The kid was caught by an official breaking a rule, they had no choice.
If a marshall sees a person drafting, or getting outside assistance, or wearing an Ipod, they should be a penalty. Do I call if cheating, nope, or at least not the way some try to put the
high and mighty on it. It is just part of the sport.

Now, there are plenty of things I would call cheating, but where is the line drawn? By the rules, only what an official sees and calls. They still do not call it "cheating", they just call it you broke the rules.
Big difference, IMO.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Actually, that's not right. Legal or illegal is a constant. What determines it is the facts. That's why people go to court - when there is a dispute about the facts. If a pack comes by and everybody is 6" off the wheel in front of them, there's no dispute about the facts. It's illegal.

I'd agree with you if you were arguing that there is a fact question about whether the "packs" referenced in this thread were actually riding with a 3m distance between each rider. Then, you've got a question. But, if you assume the packs are close-knit, as this thread seems to do, there is no question of the facts, and thus no question they are riding illegally.

It seems more like your issue here is not whether they are riding legally or illegally, but that it should or should not be a big deal.

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''The enemy isn't conservatism. The enemy isn't liberalism. The enemy is bulls**t.''

—Lars-Erik Nelson

Just so I'm clear, is cutting 10 miles off the course "cheating" or just mere "rule-breaking." I'd like to know for my next race.

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''The enemy isn't conservatism. The enemy isn't liberalism. The enemy is bulls**t.''

—Lars-Erik Nelson

I understand that is your opinion, I just totally disagree. I just smile when I see a kettle calling another one black. Or a person who lives in a glass house throw stones.

I have been in races where by the letter of the rules, I was drafting. The race section was on a 2 lane road with racers going out and back. We had hundred of racers all on
one side of the road, 3 wide. The ONLY way to not have drafted would have been to pull off the road, and wait for probably 10 minutes for the main folks to be gone.
If that is what you want to do in a race to feel you have not cheated, great, pull over to the side of the road. Just do not complain after the race since you can now tell everyone
how high and might you were.

I got my real lesson on how this all really works a few years ago. I had just completed RD certification class, and signed an ethics paper. I went to a USAT race where I measured the water
temperature at 82 degrees. I asked the RD how he was going to handle wet suits. The end result is he told everyone the water was 77.9. (He wrote me later when I asked how he could
lie and he said he would never force his customers to not be allowed to wear a wet suit). I decided that since I knew the water was over the rules, and I did not want to cheat,
I did not race with a wet suit. I got my butt kicked in this race. And did it matter? Many folks thought I was nuts to not swim without a wet suit. Others were pissed I had the guts
to challenge the RD to follow the rules. At the end of the day how did I feel about walking the high and might talk?

So, folks can sit out there on their keyboards and attack me all day for having the guts to be honest on the issue of rules. But, I walk my talk.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

The only person who can make a call if a group of folks are riding illegally is an official. Have you ever been an official at a race? If not, you might want to give it a try. It is much harder to make the call than to just talk about it.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Dude, come on now. tandem drafting is the best. They produce a bigger wake so the draft is better, they ride at a much steadier pace so there is less surging for even more energy savings

Good for you to help out by being the captain on the tandem. You are so correct "Our safety is paramount..." I have long help the view that I ride even more defensively on the tandem (don't get me started about riding the triplet). Not knowing your history with being the captain of a tandem. A couple of points... With the long wheelbase and double the mass, they are much harder to upset. Going into a direct headwind affects you less than a solo bike. Side winds suck. When we went from a 48 spoke front to a 36 spoke front, the handling was much improved. A wheel cover helps. A much debated topic in tandem groups is if a tandem can stop faster than a single.

Dave,

Not attacking you. Just shaking my head at the mentality. And, I'm not sure what "opinion" you're referring to.

You can rationalize all you want, but integrity is what you do when nobody is watching. You can choose to draft (or speed, or whatever), and know you'll get away with it, but that doesn't change the fact that you DID break the rules, that you DID cheat, and that YOU know it.

I'm not casting stones. I think we've all been tempted to do it "because everybody else does it." I would even bet that everyone here - those espousing the moral high ground, included - have all strayed and broken those rules. But, that doesn't change the FACTS. It only changes the results. And, if you're lucky enough to cheat and not get caught, then you can go ahead and rationalize it all you want. It's still cheating, and you know it.

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''The enemy isn't conservatism. The enemy isn't liberalism. The enemy is bulls**t.''

—Lars-Erik Nelson

I just do not define "cheating" as some keep trying to do. There are a set of rules in any sport.

It has NOTHING IMO to do with cheating.
It is just sports.

Do I call if cheating, nope, or at least not the way some try to put the
high and mighty on it. It is just part of the sport.



cheat   /tʃit/ Show Spelled Pronunciation[/url] [cheet] Show IPA[/url] Use cheating in a Sentence See web results for cheating See images of cheating –verb (used with object) 1. to defraud; swindle: He cheated her out of her inheritance. 2. to deceive; influence by fraud: He cheated us into believing him a hero. 3. to elude; deprive of something expected: He cheated the law by suicide. –verb (used without object) 4. to practice fraud or deceit: She cheats without regrets. 5. to violate rules or regulations: He cheats at cards. 6. to take an examination or test in a dishonest way, as by improper access to answers. 7. Informal. to be sexually unfaithful (often fol. by on): Her husband knew she had been cheating all along. He cheated on his wife. –noun 8. a person who acts dishonestly, deceives, or defrauds: He is a cheat and a liar. 9. a fraud; swindle; deception: The game was a cheat. 10. Law. the fraudulent obtaining of another's property by a pretense or trick. 11. an impostor: The man who passed as an earl was a cheat.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com