Gotta train it :o

"So, just so we're on the same page, the first study was a multi week long strength training test that saw some increases in bench press capacity after cooling hands following a treadmill warmup before lifting.
The second study was wearing thermal insulated military gear on a treadmill and hand cooling dropped temp slightly more than random groin, neck, or armpit cooling."
- The first study was to point out that palm cooling improves the capacity for muscular workload. And the second study was to point out that palm cooling is the most efficient method for cooling during exercise-induced hyperthermia. The second one does cite another study on heat extraction through the palm during aerobic exercise endurance in a hot environment. So both studies do have direct correlation to endurance sports.

"That doesn't say those other methods are bad or that doing all the above is bad.
In Hawaii my procedure went like this:
Ice down back with first cup.
Next cup ice down front, but then grab two cubes and tuck them into my wrist sleeves. Then grab two more cubes from my chest and hold them in my hands"
- If what you're doing is working well for you, awesome! Keep doing what you're doing. When I learned the info I've been talking about, tested it in training and modified my race execution strategy (ice/cold water on hands and face; no ice/cold sponges in my kit), I noticed a pretty significant improvement in keeping core body temperature in check in hot races.


"I can tell you this with 100% certainty. Your pace goes up if you tell the volunteers to splash you in the face as you run by. Adrenaline kicks in a little from that. And the volunteers love it."
- Hahaha...I love this one. I'll have to remember it. Always great to have some fun with the volunteers!

"I strongly suspect in a hot Kona environment, more cooling, more ice packs would be better for performance and core temp, mo need for complex weird hypotheses aboutnfoxal cooling area. Obviously logistics are the limiter here but I’ll bet strongly that the most ice you can do without hampering your run stride or comfort would be best. Which is exactly what it sounds like you are doing - ice in the suit ice in the hands, pretty much ice everywhere you can put it without it falling off quickly or getting in the way. "

Well, what I’ve presented here isn’t some random hypothesis. What I’ve discussed has been peer-reviewed scientific research coming out of Stanford that was tested on athletes at the university. As was the scientifically-backed research that applying cold to non-glabrous skin surfaces can increase your core body temperature. Research from other institutions that I provided also backs this up. But again, if you’re happy with what you’ve been doing, or feel this doesn’t apply to you, then disregard it. If you’re happy with the way you’ve been performing in hot races in regards to core body temperature, then great, keep doing what you’re doing.
So for those still following this conversation, just ask yourself two questions:
1. Have you used traditional cooling techniques (ice/cold sponges in your kit) to try to stay cool in hot environments?
2. Have you struggled to keep core body temperature in check when racing in hot environments?

If you answered yes to both of these questions, then glabrous skin cooling (palm and face) rather than non-glabrous skin cooling is a technique that’s worth exploring.

Thanks for the discussion. It was a good one.

I can see it now! If USTA or WTC bans this, new jerseys or kits where the chest portion is protruding out because it’s carbon fiber reinforced ($1500 of course!) Since it’s a jersey that zips, it’s not a fairing! The rules cannot state that the jersey has to touch the body.

Reiterating:
IM Rule 5.01 [BIKE CONDUCT] (m) Except as set forth below in Section 5.02(b)*, additional equipment that has the effect of reducing wind resistance is prohibited during the bike segment of the Race (whether such equipment is worn under the athlete’s clothing, over the athlete’s clothing, or is otherwise attached to the athlete's body or the athlete’s bike); (DSQ)
* 5.02(b) covers helmets
The way ahead here is deterrence, which will minimise the need for enforcement.
A clear message from race organisers to athletes describing how this rule will be policed/enforced would help, and then informed shouty referees on the route from bike racks to mount line delivering that enforcement (DSQ if not remediated immediately). The "bike segment of the Race" doesn't start till the mount line: cross that with stuff down your front and it's a DSQ.
If a referee can give Sharpe a penalty (Boulder, cost him $$$) when a bottle falls out of his behind saddle bottle cage, then enforcing this (prohibiting equipment under an athlete's clothing which has aero benefit) should be child's play.
Challenge Roth (presumably under DTU Rules) can show the lead here.
Off topic thermo-regulation link shared by @bja : (7 minutes) and (6 minutes) and detail in his interview with Prof Heller (coolmitt.com)

my N=1 experience for this. I was running intervals at a park during a work trip to TN. It was probably 90F. 2 water fountains were about 1.5 mile away from each other. At each I would fill the dog bowl with fresh cold water and soak my hands while recovering. It helped immensely, you can feel your whole body start to cool down

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IG - @ryanppax
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That rule is so vague.
According to that rule any kit or aero bike helmet or shoe cover should be prohibited.
They will not enforce this in a triathlon.

Plus, it would likely just move the focus somewhere else if they decided to start enforcing it. The cat's out of the bag at this point now that we know (we've known a while, but...) that filling in the cavity between the arms and in the chest cavity has the effect of reducing wind resistance.

The next step is then just to design comically oversized bento boxes and hydration systems which accomplish much of the same thing. There's already one product in that vein, popularized by Joe Skipper.

You may think that, but there's a balance between prescription and vagueness. I think referees are quite capable of enforcing those prohibitions: with a bit of clear IM/Challenge leadership and clarity to referees and athletes how the rule is to be / will be interpreted.
The rule seems designed to address exactly this unaesthetic 'stuff down your front' issue.
As for helmets and shoe covers:
1) Helmets - see Section 5.02(b);
2) Shoe covers: since virtually noone uses these (more time lost in T1 and T2 than gained by fitted use), if they are considered 'in scope' of the section I quoted, does it matter? And the sort of shoe cover that an athlete might wish to use to retain feelings in their toes if the air temperature is very low, will not decrease drag, so is outwith the scope of that text.

I'm planning on using a 1.5L bottle this weekend in a local half ironman. I only did one ride with the bottle in the top of my suit, but compared to similar rides (same route and very similar power), speed seemed almost .5 mph faster. I know a lot comes into play when comparing rides, but it definitely doesn't seem like a negative hit for aero. Hoping to ride similar power to the race last year, so will report back on how things go.

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Blog: http://262toboylstonstreet.blogspot.com/
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Just to add my unscientific 2cents to the conversation: I had a (very) similar ride as Ed at Boulder this weekend; 24.9 mph at 234w normalized power (I'm 6'3" and 165lbs) with a 1.5L Smartwater bottle. I generally train at sea level and haven't raced a 70.3 in 4 years so don't have much to really compare this ride to. The bottle never bothered me during the ride, it was easy to get in and out, and it seemed to be fast but without testing...

I guess my take-away is: there weren't any downsides to having the bottle besides the fact it looks goofy. I'm hoping to get down and see Jim for some real testing this summer but until then I think I'll keep shoving one down my jersey for my local races.

This is interesting. I talked to the head referee at Boulder 70.3, specifically asking him if bottles in the jersey for aero purposes were legal. He said yes, and not only that, the only restrictions on aero additions are for things attached directly to the bike. He said if you wanted to build wings and attach them to your back because it makes you faster, you are totally free to do so.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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So I guess we now know the next big thing in skinsuit design? At least for wetsuit legal swims anyway...

I'm honestly surprised we haven't seen this type design yet, or at least elements incorporated into tri suits

Sharing my data + anecdotal experience from Boulder 70.3 as well.

I've now done this race 3 times (2023, 2021, & 2019). This course felt a bit faster this year and many pros who also raced in 2021 were 1-3' faster (Sam Long, Tripp Hipple, Robbie Deckard, etc)

My experience:

• same bike & position
• added calf sleeves and a 1L bottle down the jersey in 2023
• 5'10" & 170-75lbs

Results:

• 2019: 2:15:22 on 236AP/246NP
• 2021: 2:12:02 on 260AP/272NP
• 2019: 2:05:27 on 252AP/263NP

So I rode 6.5 minutes faster with the calf sleeves + bottle on ~10w less power this year. If the course explains a couple minutes, that's still a massive improvement with the bottle+calf sleeves.

Listening to the ProTriNews podcast, it was clear that the head ref was clear that unintentional (ie lost bottle as opposed to careless eg gel wrapper poorly stuffed into pocket and 'flew out') littering merited a penalty.
I can't see how 5.01(m) can be interpreted by a reasonable referee acquainted with the rules as "only if attached to your bike". It literally says "(whether such equipment is worn under the athlete’s clothing, over the athlete’s clothing, or is otherwise attached to the athlete's body or the athlete’s bike)". @talbot cox did obliquely refer to 'Jay' the Boulder race referee's keenness to do the right thing, and any nuance was equivocal. But not if it's Long crossing the centre line.
https://podcasts.apple.com/...1865?i=1000616728595 @35:19

You passed me at the end of the bike (mile 53 maybe) just before the turn from 63rd onto diagonal highway. You were moving!

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Maybe some things become clearer.....

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http://www.ku-cycle.com

Just throwing out an experience-

At Eagleman this weekend I took an empty 1.5l bottle of Brisk Iced Tea into transition and casually stuffed it into the skinsuit at T1, casually pulled it out at T2. I wasn't the only one to do this. It kinda felt like I was doing something illegal. Chung testing erases any question of how much faster it is (12w by my test), and being empty it serves no purpose. I love pushing the envelope and loophole'ing the rules but the silliness of this one really struck me. Maybe it's just a new thing to get used to, like aero calf guards.

Bumping this as it has surprisingly gone without discussion (see photo in Ku’s post).

Richard - I imagine you tested this against a “no space filler” config. Were your % savings comparable to those of Eros?

And, is the space filler attachment in the photo designed to hold anything, or is it empty ?

I could see this idea developed as a aftermarket item with adjustability to fit any bike / rider, using a standard mount that bolts to a standard tt bento box mount. Just make it X and Y adjustable, and it becomes one size fits most.

Cool idea / approach.

You were. Have you no shame? Does drafting "kinda feel illegal"? Just think of the children.

That's an interesting design and looks like it fills that gap.

I might look for a taller bento box to put on my top tube. I have an old Trek SC Gen 2 and have the Silca bento which looks pretty aero but maybe something higher fills the gap better (and I can add more food).

Any good suggestions on taller bento boxes?

If it's not a Kú TF1 then I guess the first requirement is make sure your bike has a top tube 😉

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http://www.ku-cycle.com

Do you ride a Giant? If so you passed me at about mile 30 and I noticed the bottle. Nice setup. What was your bike split?

Nah I'm on a Felt IA1, but I think I know the guy you're talking about because I rode with a bottled Giant guy for a a fair bit. I did end up going 2:08 for the bike after about 30 min sitting in with a marginally slower group, so pretty happy with that. When it's 80w easier and their only going 1.5mph slower it's not an easy call to jump back out on your own.