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Re: Help me choose my new road bike frame [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Canyon! I am SO happy with mine. What a bike!
John
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Re: Help me choose my new road bike frame [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Aspero? Seems to tick all your boxes. Same geometry as the R5 I believe

the world's still turning? >>>>>>> the world's still turning
Last edited by: Callin': May 29, 20 19:02
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Re: Help me choose my new road bike frame [Callin'] [ In reply to ]
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Callin' wrote:
Aspero? Seems to tick all your boxes. Same geometry as the R5 I believe

road frame. not gravel frame. gravel, i'm set. i'm choosing a new road frame.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Help me choose my new road bike frame [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I have been curious about “all road” bikes, and started a thread about these bikes here:

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=7213341#p7213341

Allied Alfa All Road is the dreamer for sure, but the Norco Section looks awesome too...so awesome in fact that I ordered it! and if work wasn’t so busy I would have already picked it up and ridden it too. I went alloy because thst is my thing right now but the carbon looks really nice and should check all your boxes. I will let you know.
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Re: Help me choose my new road bike frame [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Have you seen the new OPEN MIN.D.? https://opencycle.com/mind Integrated seat mast might be a nonstarter but i'll through it out there for you to shoot down. Looks like the L might fit your needs even if the stays are a bit short.

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Re: Help me choose my new road bike frame [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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Similar system and styling. I love how it looks, but then I love how the BMC looks. The Orbea is almost a dead ringer.


cyclenutnz wrote:
Orbea Orca OMX matches your stats very nicely and has a similar system to BMC with a cover under the stem. Plus it looks like this:

My YouTubes

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Re: Help me choose my new road bike frame [cyclenutnz] [ In reply to ]
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cyclenutnz wrote:
you need to be able to work on them, travel with them, get them to fit. they can look like the starship enterprise, but they must perform those basic functions.

I class putting cables through the headset bearing as a major hindrance to working on them.


Funny, because to me hidden hydraulic cables is a screening criteria for me... even for a gravel bike. So I'm holding off for now.

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Last edited by: ericMPro: May 30, 20 4:22
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Re: Help me choose my new road bike frame [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I would think you’d just choose whichever model a manufacturer gives you so you can write a new review and give them some advertising???
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Re: Help me choose my new road bike frame [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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The ventum ns-1 looks like it’s only slightly off your geometry spec (reach about 5mm long in the L, and chain stays 5mm short). and I have no idea about the cable routing. Its a nice looking bike though. I do think it’s expensive for what it is, but if I had the cash I’d consider the mechanical version just because the cable routing is so clean

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Re: Help me choose my new road bike frame [zooropa] [ In reply to ]
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zooropa wrote:
I would think you’d just choose whichever model a manufacturer gives you so you can write a new review and give them some advertising???

i know it's in pink, but it's pretty easy to get a free bike. i don't intend to get a free bike. in fact, i won't accept a free bike. i want the bike i want (when i decide that that is). certainly price will be a condition. i'll shop just like you. i will look for the best fit, the best value, the best price. if that price offered is so artificially low that i know the manufacturer is losing money, i will decline the deal.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Help me choose my new road bike frame [LAI] [ In reply to ]
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LAI wrote:
Have you seen the new OPEN MIN.D.? https://opencycle.com/mind Integrated seat mast might be a nonstarter but i'll through it out there for you to shoot down. Looks like the L might fit your needs even if the stays are a bit short.

the bike i love more than any bike in the world right now is my OPEN WI.DE. it is in my opinion the template of the future gravel bike.

but it's a probably no to the OPEN MIND for me for 2 reasons. first is the geometry. it's made with my perfect geometry. for gravel. but it's a cm too short in the size L for me, for road. that might not seem like a lot to you, but look at size runs. look at a specialized venge. the size 49 has a reach of 378mm. the size 61 is 411mm. the entire reach range is 33mm. there's not a little of wiggle room there. this is why i size my bikes by reach first, and then by stack.

now, to be honest, i probably need to coin a new term, something like "normalized reach," because part of the reason the range in reach is so tight is that as head tubes grow, the length of the reach is diminished by the height of the head tube which - because it's angled back 17° from vertical - cannibalizes reach. still, in that venge, the total front:center range is less than 40mm. (tho some of that is due to the slackening of head angles as the bike sizes get progressively smaller).

if a bike has an actual, normalized, horizontal length range, for fit purposes, of less than 50mm throughout it's entire size run, then a bike that is too short for me by, say, 10mm or 15mm in my chosen size, that's a fairly big gap. this shorter distance works for me in gravel, because for some reason that i can't explain the ergonomics of SRAM's hydraulic road hoods offset that. those hoods make me feel like i've added a centimeter, or even 15mm, of cockpit distance. also, i guess i like about 10mm of shorter cockpit on my gravel bike. a 385mm reach on my gravel frame seems about right to me.

the other thing about the OPEN MIND is that i'm not convinced in want that continuous top tube. i'm also looking at Giant's road frames, and they have that same thing. i think i'd prefer to have a traditional seat post/seat tube.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Help me choose my new road bike frame [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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It may be a touch too gadety for you, but the Trek Domane SLR with the optional "Pro Endurance" geometry (available through Project One) in a size 58 hits all your objective criteria. 581 stack, 396 reach, 425mm chainstays, fd mount, conventional stem & bar, clearance for up to 38mm tires.

The more conventional Argon 18 Krypton GF in a medium with the shortest headset top is just short of your minimum reach target (388mm, with a 580mm stack). Other than that, it hits all other objective criteria.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
Last edited by: gary p: May 30, 20 8:25
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Re: Help me choose my new road bike frame [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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gary p wrote:
It may be a touch too gadety for you, but the Trek Domane SLR with the optional "Pro Endurance" geometry (available through Project One) in a size 58 hits all your objective criteria. 581 stack, 396 reach, 425mm chainstays, fd mount, conventional stem & bar, clearance for up to 38mm tires.

The more conventional Argon 18 Krypton GF in a medium with the shortest headset top is just short of your minimum reach target (388mm, with a 580mm stack). Other than that, it hits all other objective criteria.

when a frame accepts a clearance up to 38mm tires, that does not sound to me like a road race frame. i have a gravel bike.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Help me choose my new road bike frame [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Cdale Systemsix. A nice ride and probably even better when you build one up yourself.
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Re: Help me choose my new road bike frame [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe the new SuperSix disc frameset, 56cm. Without the fancy proprietary stem.

Checks all your boxes, I think, except trail is 58.
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Re: Help me choose my new road bike frame [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
Maybe the new SuperSix disc frameset, 56cm. Without the fancy proprietary stem. Checks all your boxes, I think, except trail is 58.

the SystemSix or SuperSix are definitely on my list of possible. a SuperSix EVO, 2 generations ago, is what I'm replacing. Just, my current size is 58cm and you're right, I'd need to move down to 56cm. This bike is more in line geometrically with a Venge or Tarmac. A little taller versus its length. the main reason i'm replacing my existing bike is exceedingly tight tire clearance. can't go above 25mm tires without hitting the insides of the chainstays.

i don't mind the fancy bar and stem, because cannondale was very smart in how they made this. the stem and bar separate, there's a bunch of different stem pitches and lengths, and the hydraulic brake line is not buried inside the stem. the issues i have: 1) i want something more like these newer gravel bars on my road bike; if i want to change a stem, i don't like having to go to cannondale and buy another stem. so, i'll probably buy the frameset and forego the fancy front end. but you're right. cdale is definitely an option for me.

as to the 58mm trail, damon and i have a disagreement over whether it's possible to tell the difference in steering geometry between bikes just by altering trail and keeping everything else constant. he would say i should not even consider this as a factor. what i would say is that i can get used to it, if the steering geometry is slower than i want.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Help me choose my new road bike frame [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:

when a frame accepts a clearance up to 38mm tires, that does not sound to me like a road race frame. i have a gravel bike.


415mm+ chainstays generally lands you at a brand's "endurance" category offering, though, which is where this sits. As gravel frames are trending towards XC MTB tire clearance, and 32c is quickly becoming the tire clearance norm for disc-brake "race bikes, clearance for 38's will be the norm for this segment soon. Trek's just a bit ahead of the game. Is it a crit racer? Surely not. In this geo, though, it's used by Trek pros for some of the classics. You don't have to use all the tire clearance. The Domane ships with standard 28's in the higher-end complete builds.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
Last edited by: gary p: May 30, 20 10:31
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Re: Help me choose my new road bike frame [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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gary p wrote:
Slowman wrote:

when a frame accepts a clearance up to 38mm tires, that does not sound to me like a road race frame. i have a gravel bike.


415mm+ chainstays generally lands you at a brand's "endurance" category offering, though, which is where this sits. As gravel frames are trending towards XC MTB tire clearance, and 32c is quickly becoming the tire clearance norm for disc-brake "race bikes, clearance for 38's will be the norm for this segment soon. Trek's just a bit ahead of the game. Is it a crit racer? Surely not. In this geo, though, it's used by Trek pros for some of the classics. You don't have to use all the tire clearance. The Domane ships with standard 28's in the higher-end complete builds.

neither trek nor any other bike company knows that endurance geometry is. for years endurance geometry has meant taller stacks and shorter reaches. that is just plain silly. most really good gravel racers try to get as close to road geometry as possible, and if there are positions that are inconvenient (e.g., the drops) handlebar geometry solves that. so-called "endurance" geometry is shorthand for what most bike companies consider wimp geometry, but what truly incisive companies realize are geometries that match specific morphologies: "endurance" geometry has nothing to do with endurance riding; or wimpiness; it's geometry for riders whose legs are long and torsos are short.

lengthening the chainstay for tire clearance is fine. that's a good reason. but if we're talking about handling, a 415mm chainstay is in my opinion not long. rather, a 405mm chainstay is short. a 425mm chainstay is long. there's nothing wrong with a 415mm chainstay on a road race bike. i prefer a chainstay longer than average on a road bike because there's no downside. the bike handles better, corners better, rides better out of the saddle and probably most importantly, shifts better and is less prone to power loss in an angled chain config.

all things equal, i'll take the longer chainstay. i would be willing to go down to, say, 408mm. but under protest.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Help me choose my new road bike frame [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
neither trek nor any other bike company knows that endurance geometry is. for years endurance geometry has meant taller stacks and shorter reaches. that is just plain silly. most really good gravel racers try to get as close to road geometry as possible, and if there are positions that are inconvenient (e.g., the drops) handlebar geometry solves that. so-called "endurance" geometry is shorthand for what most bike companies consider wimp geometry, but what truly incisive companies realize are geometries that match specific morphologies: "endurance" geometry has nothing to do with endurance riding; or wimpiness; it's geometry for riders whose legs are long and torsos are short.

In this case, Trek seems to be in agreement with you that geo for fit and geo for purpose are two distinct issues. They offer the Domane in two very distinct fit paradigms; a relaxed H3 fit, and the longer/lower H1.5 fit. In a size 58, the H3 has a stack/reach of 611/380 while the H1.5 is 581/396.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
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Re: Help me choose my new road bike frame [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
zooropa wrote:
I would think you’d just choose whichever model a manufacturer gives you so you can write a new review and give them some advertising???

i know it's in pink, but it's pretty easy to get a free bike. i don't intend to get a free bike. in fact, i won't accept a free bike. i want the bike i want (when i decide that that is). certainly price will be a condition. i'll shop just like you. i will look for the best fit, the best value, the best price. if that price offered is so artificially low that i know the manufacturer is losing money, i will decline the deal.


Understood 😊. That was purely in jest...and I’m curious to see what you decide to build up...
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Re: Help me choose my new road bike frame [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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gary p wrote:
Slowman wrote:

neither trek nor any other bike company knows that endurance geometry is. for years endurance geometry has meant taller stacks and shorter reaches. that is just plain silly. most really good gravel racers try to get as close to road geometry as possible, and if there are positions that are inconvenient (e.g., the drops) handlebar geometry solves that. so-called "endurance" geometry is shorthand for what most bike companies consider wimp geometry, but what truly incisive companies realize are geometries that match specific morphologies: "endurance" geometry has nothing to do with endurance riding; or wimpiness; it's geometry for riders whose legs are long and torsos are short.


In this case, Trek seems to be in agreement with you that geo for fit and geo for purpose are two distinct issues. They offer the Domane in two very distinct fit paradigms; a relaxed H3 fit, and the longer/lower H1.5 fit. In a size 58, the H3 has a stack/reach of 611/380 while the H1.5 is 581/396.

i'm not going to let trek off the hook quite that easily. trek's original post-2000 high end carbon road geometry was H1. which almost nobody could ride without a lot of headset spacers. then came H2 and women's geometry. then women's geometry proved to have quite a bit of utility, and some of us were pestering trek to scale that geometry all the way up, which it eventually did, back when it made the 2100 or 2300 (i believe it was). a round tube midrange carbon bike. and that became H3.

but never were these morphological in nature, in trek's narrative. the mythology was about ability. H1 is for our pro racers. H2 is for club racers. H3 is for duffers. and women. who are duffers, by definition. this was trek's narrative, boiled down, these was trek's body language, and you had to beg and bribe a woman pro road cyclist to ride a trek (or specialized) women's geometry bike, otherwise she was riding a man's race bike, with something like H2 geometry, because there was no gender argument for a women's geometry, only a morphological argument, which did not tie to gender.

then we start to see trek and specialized putting endurance or comfort elements into their endurance bikes. and lo, those features were popular. but not everyone had an endurance geometry morphology. so, endurance features start to get put into longer/lower (e.g., H2) geometries.

trek has (nearly) always made great bikes. but it has never understood fit. it has an abysmal record at trying to get a fit system to work for its brand and its dealers, because fit has never been an engineering-driven program for trek. trek's engineers understand bike fit perfectly; that's why they engineer really good fitting bikes; but the engineers have always been shut out of trek's fit programs and projects. product management drove fit, sales drive new product design, and marketing just tries to package and sell whatever it is trek is making. trek makes great bikes. great fitting bikes. but historically few people at trek know why its bikes fit well, and who they fit, and who are candidates for each geometry, except for the folks inside engineering, and they don't get to give input into either trek's fit programs; or its catalog and web narratives surrounding who should end up with H1, 2, 3.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Help me choose my new road bike frame [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I was going to suggest the Open MIND- But if it is too tall how about an Argon18 Gallium Pro? Or Ventum NS1?
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Re: Help me choose my new road bike frame [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Go classic yet modern, carbon lugged. Will be the last carbon Colnago made in a Italy.
Colnago C64, size 54H
Stack 597
Reach 380
Chainstay 412
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Re: Help me choose my new road bike frame [mike s] [ In reply to ]
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mike s wrote:
Go classic yet modern, carbon lugged. Will be the last carbon Colnago made in a Italy.
Colnago C64, size 54H
Stack 597
Reach 380
Chainstay 412

reach is too short. stack is too tall. tech is 25 years old. the two good things about that bike is the chainstay length, and the decals.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Help me choose my new road bike frame [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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The new Wilier is pretty darn close, and damn... it's gorgeous in the Astana colorway. They've also done some thinking on the "how the heck do you get people on the right size with this integrated stuff" side of things which I'm pretty sure you'll want to check out...

Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
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