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Re: Guns and training [wildman1] [ In reply to ]
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wildman1 wrote:
Restricting guns like other countries is not a remedy. It will only ensure that the criminals are the only ones left with the guns. The root of the problem is the people committing the crimes. And that is what needs to be addressed. I am very proud of the country I live in and the rights I enjoy. Enough said.


There are a range of possible solutions to the US's violence problems, and gun restriction is only one possibility, unproven within the context of the US of A, which is what we're talking about. Some get unreasoningly fixated on this as the only possible solution without a whit of evidence: as much as those at whom they scoff appear to be "fixated" on guns as the only possible means of dealing with the possibility of violence.

Almost makes you want to think.

Naah. It's the other guy's fault.

Given that this is an American problem we're discussing, I'm only interested in what has worked in other countries to the extent that it informs a realistic and EFFECTIVE solution in the US. The demographics, legal structure, and economic structure of your typical Nice Lilttle European Socialist Democracy are different enough that it is not reasonable to assume that what succeeds there will also bear fruit here in the good ol' US of A. A homogeneous society of ten-ish million people is just not as complicated as a heterogeneous country of 300 million in so many ways. Thanks for your sneers, though; we didn't know that you think you're better than us.

I'd given this thread a rest for several days, and I see that I was right to do so--it's a repetitive, broken record.

TFS.

Toodleoo.

--------------
Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard.
Last edited by: N. Dorphin: Dec 29, 12 9:35
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Re: Guns and training [N. Dorphin] [ In reply to ]
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Given that this is an American problem we're discussing, I'm only interested in what has worked in other countries to the extent that it informs a realistic and EFFECTIVE solution in the US. The demographics, legal structure, and economic structure of your typical Nice Lilttle European Socialist Democracy are different enough that it is not reasonable to assume that what succeeds there will also bear fruit here in the good ol' US of A. A homogeneous society of ten-ish million people is just not as complicated as a heterogeneous country of 300 million in so many ways. Thanks for your sneers, though; we didn't know that you think you're better than us.

Well said.

Of course the ultimate "solution" here would be Japan - no guns at all around and guess what, no one dying of gun-shots, and almost no violent crime of any kind either.

Of course the Swiss & Israelis always come up in this debate as well - often trotted out by the pro-gun crowd, as an example. Indeed, there is a gun in every home/house. But the difference in these countries is like Japan, violent crime and crime with guns is barely registrable (of course taking out terrorist activities in Israel)

Despite high gun ownership, and gun possession in the U.S. legal and otherwise, the U.S. still struggles with a very high rate of violent crime and crime with guns used, and a overall high death-rate from gunshots of all kinds( criminal and otherwise), so clearly in the U.S. other forces are at work, and the Switzerland and Israel comparison, is not valid.

But I agree with you that it's complicated, and it's not something that will easily be "solved", because, perhaps at it's roots, many don't think of it as being a problem.




Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Guns and training [N. Dorphin] [ In reply to ]
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It is important to note that, even in a typical Nice Lilttle European Socialist Democracy such as the UK, gun banning is ineffective enough a method of combatting violence that kitchen knife restrictions are being discussed (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4581871.stm). The actual problem, in my opinion, is that there are as many people as there are emotionally damaged enough to go to violence. Cars can be used to kill as many people as are killed in some shootings. Someone could walk into a Walmart and mix as much ammonia and bleach as they can and send a number of people to the hospital. You can't people-proof the world. You need to address the deep causes of people's desire to hurt each other.

There's no reason an emotionally stable person can't have a stack of assault rifles and never hurt anyone. There's no reason an emotionally unstable person would be unable to harm others, no matter how many things are restricted.


The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
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Re: Guns and training [Toby] [ In reply to ]
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Toby wrote:
There's no reason an emotionally stable person can't have a stack of assault rifles and never hurt anyone.

Why would an emotionally stable person want an assault rifle?
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Re: Guns and training [adal] [ In reply to ]
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adal wrote:
Toby wrote:
There's no reason an emotionally stable person can't have a stack of assault rifles and never hurt anyone.


Why would an emotionally stable person want an assault rifle?

They're nifty mechanical things. Same reason I like cameras, even though I have not a whit of photographic talent. Or why people want Corvettes and Ferraris to do nothing except cruise the neighborhood at 30mph on Saturday afternoons. This is America. Freedoms are supposed to exist by default and be restricted only when necessary, not the reverse.

Please note I don't actually have an assault rifle, or a firearm of any kind, but I don't believe the right to own them should be restricted.

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
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Re: Guns and training [Toby] [ In reply to ]
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There's no reason an emotionally stable person can't have a stack of assault rifles and never hurt anyone.///


IF she could answer you, i wonder if adam's mother would agree with this now?
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Re: Guns and training [Toby] [ In reply to ]
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Toby wrote:
adal wrote:
Toby wrote:
There's no reason an emotionally stable person can't have a stack of assault rifles and never hurt anyone.


Why would an emotionally stable person want an assault rifle?


They're nifty mechanical things. Same reason I like cameras, even though I have not a whit of photographic talent. Or why people want Corvettes and Ferraris to do nothing except cruise the neighborhood at 30mph on Saturday afternoons. This is America. Freedoms are supposed to exist by default and be restricted only when necessary, not the reverse.

Please note I don't actually have an assault rifle, or a firearm of any kind, but I don't believe the right to own them should be restricted.

Last time I checked the right to drive a car is restricted. You are correct, though that if you have cash, you can own as many cars are you want, even though your driver license may be suspended.....nevertheless, the cars are registered in your name on a government document of some sort. Funny how the government wants us to register our cars. Is this restriction necessary, or is it just a massive money grab? (I can't say, because I am not an American, only an outside observer with respect to one category of tool that you guys restrict usage on ).
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Re: Guns and training [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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You don't know what you are talking about. Driving a car in the US is not a right. And all cars do not need to be registered, for example track cars.
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Re: Guns and training [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
There's no reason an emotionally stable person can't have a stack of assault rifles and never hurt anyone.///


IF she could answer you, i wonder if adam's mother would agree with this now?

I don't have much patience for facile emotional appeals. Frankly, I expected better from you. The real question is, would Adam have done nothing without access to guns, or would we have heard about a different sort of tragedy? Further, why are we, as a society, not doing a better job of recognizing, treating, and preventing the sort of mental illness that causes people to do these sorts of things? Is the goal really to have people desiring to go on killing sprees, but make it less convenient to do so?

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
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Re: Guns and training [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Last time I checked the right to drive a car is restricted. You are correct, though that if you have cash, you can own as many cars are you want, even though your driver license may be suspended.....nevertheless, the cars are registered in your name on a government document of some sort. Funny how the government wants us to register our cars. Is this restriction necessary, or is it just a massive money grab? (I can't say, because I am not an American, only an outside observer with respect to one category of tool that you guys restrict usage on ).

Yes, the right to drive is restricted, though frankly it's mostly a matter of paperwork; practically anyone able to breath can pass the test. Yes, the cars are registered with the state in your name. I'm completely fine with weapons being registered and owners needing to go through a safety and handling course before legally owning them. The comparison with cars is one I love to make - they kill far more people than guns owned by civilians, yet we hardly make any noise about it. More people die (let alone are seriously injured) from car crashes every day than were shot at Sandy Hook, but it's less shocking.

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
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Re: Guns and training [Toby] [ In reply to ]
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Toby wrote:
monty wrote:
There's no reason an emotionally stable person can't have a stack of assault rifles and never hurt anyone.///


IF she could answer you, i wonder if adam's mother would agree with this now?


I don't have much patience for facile emotional appeals. Frankly, I expected better from you. The real question is, would Adam have done nothing without access to guns, or would we have heard about a different sort of tragedy? Further, why are we, as a society, not doing a better job of recognizing, treating, and preventing the sort of mental illness that causes people to do these sorts of things? Is the goal really to have people desiring to go on killing sprees, but make it less convenient to do so?

I honestly find these "it's the mental health" arguments a smoke screen to divert attention away from the gun ownership issue.

Even if the 'crazies' were completely cured, you'd better believe the US would continue to lead the world (combined) in gun deaths.
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Re: Guns and training [dkennison] [ In reply to ]
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To qoute you "Not knowing keeps assholes on their best behavior. " /////
You are absolutlty 100% incorrect. I run/live in a transitional home for guys out of prison. I live with 3 registered violent offenders right now. I will not even get into my past post Marine Corps of what I did. I am in prisons reguraly. I have not met one person, not one ever, that thought "Hmm does he have a gun or not" before commiting there spontaneous crime of violence. Statistical fact is that me (one of those assholes) would have had a much more likely chance than you of taking your gun from you when I commited my crime. ..There are many logical reasons to argue to carry a weapon, that is not one of them
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Re: Guns and training [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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http://kontradictions.wordpress.com/2012/08/09/why-not-renew-the-assault-weapons-ban-well-ill-tell-you/


This is an article by a self labeled liberal that discusses in detail the folly of the current race to ban weapons of this type or that.
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Re: Guns and training [Toby] [ In reply to ]
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Toby wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
Last time I checked the right to drive a car is restricted. You are correct, though that if you have cash, you can own as many cars are you want, even though your driver license may be suspended.....nevertheless, the cars are registered in your name on a government document of some sort. Funny how the government wants us to register our cars. Is this restriction necessary, or is it just a massive money grab? (I can't say, because I am not an American, only an outside observer with respect to one category of tool that you guys restrict usage on ).


Yes, the right to drive is restricted, though frankly it's mostly a matter of paperwork; practically anyone able to breath can pass the test. Yes, the cars are registered with the state in your name. I'm completely fine with weapons being registered and owners needing to go through a safety and handling course before legally owning them. The comparison with cars is one I love to make - they kill far more people than guns owned by civilians, yet we hardly make any noise about it. More people die (let alone are seriously injured) from car crashes every day than were shot at Sandy Hook, but it's less shocking.

I absolutely hate this analogy of cars and guns.

What is the main purpose of a gun? To kill
What is the main purpose of an assault rifle? To kill people.

What is the purpose of a car? Transport people/things. Killing is an unfortunate side effect, and because it still happens, there are a lot of regulations that have dramatically improved car safety.

You might as well compare McDonalds and fast food consumption in general to guns by your analog. Far more people will die from obesity and heart disease from over-consuming fast food than cars or guns. So by your argument, we should ignore gun mortalities and car mortalities completely, not regulate them, and instead go after fast food. I actually happen to think fast food needs a lot stricter regulation, but it doesn't in any means reduce the need to regulate cars or guns. I frankly find it totally ridiculous that it's far easier for me to purchase an assault rifle than it is a pair of nunchucks (which are outright banned in most states.)
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Re: Guns and training [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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I absolutely hate this analogy of cars and guns.

Agreed.

And I know you and I are on opposite sides of this issue. Glad to see there is common ground.

My sense is that stuff like this is brought up by the pro-gun crowd as a means of deflection. They point to something else that is everyday( driving a car) and try and draw comparisons to it.

Personally I see no connection at all, and for those pro-gun folks using it as a discussion point, they look rather silly in my view.





Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Guns and training [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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I run with my gun all the time.
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Re: Guns and training [Brucep] [ In reply to ]
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Ordered a tactical flashlight tonight due to this thread.

Of course if I did that after reading every thread on new bikes I'd be in a lot of trouble with my wife =)
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Re: Guns and training [TriSloth] [ In reply to ]
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TriSloth wrote:
Ordered a tactical flashlight tonight due to this thread.

Of course if I did that after reading every thread on new bikes I'd be in a lot of trouble with my wife =)

I love tactical flashlights - although in reality they're more accurately 'great flashlights' since there's nothing so special about them now that CREE Leds are commonplace.

One blast with my Magicshine in the dark and you'll be blind for awhile!
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Re: Guns and training [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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You must not be from Oklahoma or remember the damage one Ryder truck caused.

Randy Sadler
randysadler.com
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Re: Guns and training [crwnikeboy] [ In reply to ]
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Rick Perry carries one while running to shoot coyotes that threaten his dog.....
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Re: Guns and training [crwnikeboy] [ In reply to ]
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Most of you are pathetic. That said, my doors are unlocked, try to enter !
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Re: Guns and training [triitagain] [ In reply to ]
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I don't begrudge anyone that does carry, I've lived in some bad areas and seen some really depressing things so anyone out there responsibly armed is a welcome sight. I do own a handgun and use it for home defense. Our area has had a rash of home invasions which has led to at least one murder. We've also had eight homicides within a 2 mile radius of my house. Its not a bad area, just near one. My wife getting raped in my house while I am tied up or dead is an irrational fear but unfortunately it does happen.

I wouldn't run and carry because I have nothing of value, run smart, and avoid upcoming groups. The average crook is not going to attack a male runner. A pack of kids or a crazy person may, but I can typically see them before they see me and go the other way. If I'm cycling and attacked, more than likely their target is my bike and if they are smart I will not have a chance to defend myself.

The thing to bear in mind is shooting someone with a handgun is treated as a homicide. Your best case scenario for killing an attacker is $10,000 in legal fees, and a huge microscope on your family. Worst case is spending the rest of your life in prison with your family losing everything. Most situations where a gun would be drawn in defense would be better served not. Most people who draw a weapon do not intend on firing it or harming others, and if they do there's the risk of bystanders, and drawing attention to yourself.

Of course all the reasons I pointed out above for not carrying could be countered. It only takes one person to justify carrying, hopefully I never cross anyone like that.
Last edited by: furiousferret: Jan 1, 13 10:45
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Re: Guns and training [furiousferret] [ In reply to ]
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The average crook is not going to attack a male runner. A pack of kids or a crazy person may, but I can typically see them before they see me and go the other way.

I've run in some far away places through small remote villages, and bigger city areas, in Kenya, Tanzania, Vietnam, Jamaica, Cambodia, Nepal, India, Malaysia etc . . . through some areas that I am sure many would call "sketchy". What's always been amazing is the kids. They always, regardless of the country would, spontaneously come out and run along with me for a couple hundred meters, shout, cheer, sing and want to high-five me or touch my hand. I've done some modestly "successful" things as an athlete, but it's these runs that I have gone on and these spontaneous interactions with kids like this all over the world that I remember vividly and with a huge sense of fun and pride.






Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Guns and training [OZgriffiths] [ In reply to ]
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OZgriffiths wrote:
The world around you is proof that your gun laws are a failure though.
Your gun homicide rate alone per 100,000 people (3.7), as of a few years ago, was the same as the combined firearm homicide total of all these relatively equivalent countries:
Australia (0.09); Britain (0.04); New Zealand (0.17); Germany (0.06); Ireland (0.36); France (0.22) Japan (0.02); Italy (0.36); Poland (0.02); Hong Kong (0.12); Finland (0.26); Switzerland (0.52); Belgium (0.29); Sweden (0.19); Denmark (0.22); and Israel (0.94). Bear in mind that Israel is in a fair state of war which will be causing that number... And lets not look at your firearm-related suicides and

Yes, there are a lot of nutters with guns out there in the USA. Is leaving wide open access for all to concealed weapons, assault rifles, high capacity pistol magazines, gun show weapons that can be bought and taken home the same day without any checks, etc etc going to stop that or keep you safe from them? You've already seen the outcome. When Australia saw a nearby country having problems with high gun ownership, corruption, gang warfare, political instability etc, we went in, became a functional police force and removed the guns from the gangs. Solomon Islands, Operation Anode for those of you who want to look it up. The killing stopped. Now people can hate each other all they like, its just a hell of a lot harder to kill anyone.

I can run anywhere in Australia at a moments notice, any time of day or night, without fear. Ok, the folk in bad neighbourhoods might throw a few jokes at me as I go past, but that is as bad as it gets.

Your country has many years of psychological retraining needed to deal with the obsession with firearms, violence, the paranoia etc. There's also years worth of policing and political redevelopment required to remove the weapons from the undesirable elements of society, so that there is less cause for that paranoia. Unfortunately, all that is unlikely to happen. But maybe if it does, in 10 or 20 years time, those of you who have proven you can play nicely with each other and the rest of the world can be allowed your shiny toys back again.

Before getting too satisfied with your country, you should 1st look at the rape rates of Australia. Looks like a few women in the AU would have liked to have a gun handy.

I live in a safe community with the average house price running 1M and my wife now needs to run with the dogs due to some nut job stalking her on a run one pleasant morning. We also have a problem with home burlaries because crooks like to steal from people that have good things to steal.

Yes, crooks do have cars and will travel outside the "shit hole" places they live and cause trouble for the law abiding folks.

But swinging around to the other side of the coin, I had to do some work in the ghetto of Chicago and even though I'm 6' 2" and 215, I had to hire 300+ pound football linemen as body guards and this was for daylight hours.

For all the supermen that train all over the world without fear, I guarantee that you would not train in these rat holes even if guns never existed. It's like entering a whole different world.

And keep in mind that Chicago already has some of the strictest gun laws in the nation... But I guess those folks didn't get the memo.

So until we see headlines reading "Midldle aged suburban father of 2 goes crazy half way through his fartlek and guns down....", I can't see a single reason why they should not be able to carry for self protection.
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Re: Guns and training [Goobdog] [ In reply to ]
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I live in oz. I have been to chicago twice for 2 month stints. Oz is a shit-tonne safer than chicago. You can argue rape stats etc all you like. BTW some countries actually have a different 'definition' of what rape is, thus stats are skewed. I think that was mentioned earlier in this thread.

Real safe community you live in if your wife has a nutter chasing her and theft problems.
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